New tech mod plan
 

I've attached what I have so far. No actual "code", just some design docs.

The idea here is to make the SE4 tech tree more of a tree and less of a bush. I'll also be adding cross-linked techs and attempting to correct some perchived imbalances. Plus the new tech tree allows for more specilization. Don't want storm creators, but do want star creators? No problem. Want fast, nimble ships? Can do.

Ex:
Point Defense Weapons, researched by itself, gives you NOTHING. But once you research, say, Projectile Weapons, you get Point Defense Cannons. Research Rockets, and you get point-defense rockets. Just research projectile weapons OR point-defense doesn't get you the PD guns. You have to have them both.

Researching ship construction now opens up three fields:
-Escort Construction
-Cruiser Construction
-Capitial ship construction

Each hull size now has improved Versions (heh, heh, 90% bonus to defense escorts..), and the larger hulls have penalties to defense. I've added a few sizes as well.

I plan to change intel a bit as well, to help out the AI. It'll be split between espianoge (sp) and sabatoge. Just tell your AI to research sabatoge only, and no more AI using attacks it can't effectivly respond to.

Like the P&N mod, I plan on having optional newtonian movement, and empires will need to be patched to work.

The intersting part- if it works- will be this: default AIs will still work with a minor mod. I'm making the default and new tech trees 0 point racial tech areas.

What I need: look over what I've posted. I'd like feedback on that and the idea itself. Right now, that's it.. but I've never done any AI work, so people willing to convert old AIs to the new tech tree would be very much welcome, as would playtesters http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

Phoenix-D

Re: New tech mod plan
 

Nice, so far it looks good from what I can see. A few minor criticisms, however:

1. Frigates can now become harder to hit than a small fighter (or just as hard to hit), and harder to hit than a large fighter. Somehow, that just doesn't seem quite right.
2. There are no more 2000+ kiloton chassis, as you've modded the Starbase to be only 1500 kt. This means that the components needed to make ringworlds and sphereworlds can't be used, as nothing is big enough to handle them. I don't know if this was intentional or not, but it would be nice to know. If you changed the size of those components to fit on your current starbases, that would mean that baseships could be fitted with them as well, so planetary shipyards could be used to make the components which could drastically alter the way ringworlds and sphereworlds are created.

I like the idea though. It could add a lot more specialization to the game, as well as give new uses to the smaller capital ships.

-Hotfoot
"Now, what about minaturized weapons?"

Re: New tech mod plan
 

There are a lot of good ideas in there. The amount of work it will take to propogate a redesign like that through all the mod files is daunting.

Good Luck,
LT

Re: New tech mod plan
 

Hotfoot: I was going by memory on the sizes, I may need to fix that one way or the other http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif (there will also be a one size lower stellar construction, FYI)

I'll take the effect on the fighters into account. I hadn't planned on the fighters (or bases, baseships, sats) being upgradable, but I guess I better..

The ship upragdes go like this.
Starting: Escort I
Research: Ship 1
Research: Escorts 1, get Corvete I
Reseatch: escorts 2, get Frigate I
research: escorts 3, get Destroyer I
Research: Escorts 4, get Corvete II
etc. for each class.

I plan on (eventually) adding 4 more racial traits: Energy Race (new tech tree), Totally Organic Race (new tech tree), miniturization, Swarm (new tree). Mini is self-explanitory, and I didn't think of it until you mentioned it http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif Swarm, simply put, cuts your costs to 1/3. It will probably be a 3000 point trait..

Hopefully componets.txt and techareas.txt don't have upper file-size limits http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

LT411: the design will probably take the longest. I don't plan on making major changes to components, so components.txt will only be a change of tech areas for each component, and that can be copy-pasted easily. There's no upper limit to family names, so I'll just slap a 999 or something on the front to set these apart for the AI. Techareas.txt will be the big change, and will probably take a bit.

Phoenix-D

Re: New tech mod plan
 

More component ideas..

WP mounts that extend range a bit.
Base ""
"Planetary Fortification" mounts that make a WP much tougher, at the cost of adding to expense. Like mounts that double or tripple the hit points of all components, plus the normal effects, simultating using the planet itself as a shield.

Jammers- 10k missiles that do minimal damage. Designed to present PD with a large amount of targets to fire at.

Sprint missiles- missiles that reach their max range in just one or two turns.

Small weapons- I may let some of the smaller weapons fit on ships, to round out that Last 3 kt you can get stuck with with certain mounts.

Hardened Structure- non-armor armor http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

As you can probably tell, I'll be shamelessly borrowing from other mods. This extra stuff will be added Last though, I want to finish reorganizing the SE4 tree first.

I'll be starting work on this tonight.

Phoenix-D

Re: New tech mod plan
 

Well, you can forget about the "advanced colonization" tech areas. SE4 goes nutty when you try and make new colonization modules..

Phoenix-D

Re: New tech mod plan
 

Update: the work on techareas.txt is pretty much finished, I think. Still needs to be balanced, and I'd love to find a way to get the advanced colonies working, but the framework is there.

Phoenix-D

Re: New tech mod plan
 

OK, just learned about what the AI does when it encounters mines.

What ELSE does the AI research automatticly?

Phoenix-D

Re: New tech mod plan
 

(Yes, I'm going to continue bumping this thread with updates)

OK, progress. Components.txt- almost finished, just need the decoys. Facilites.txt- finished. techareas.txt- finished. airesearch default.txt-finished.

I also modded the Happyness types a bit, made neutral into Xenophobic and added a seperate Neutral type. Also changed the defaultstratagies.txt to make a little more sense (ex: why the **** is the secondary stratagy for Maximum range.. POINT BLANK? http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif)

I also found a little problem with the family numbers. See, every time I've added a new item, I just stick 999 on the end. But SE4 doesn't like it when that number goes over 65535; it barfs saying "unable to load components.txt" without giving a specific error. Very aggrivating to track down, that.

I should have a beta Version of this mod up later.

Phoenix-D

Re: New tech mod plan
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>What ELSE does the AI research automatticly?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Probably SM if it feels cut off from the rest of the universe.

Re: New tech mod plan
 

Makes sense. Hopefully it has the brains to pick the right tech area..

BTW, whoever made the mod picker- VERY nice utility. Saves a lot of pain going back and forth http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

EDIT: More foibles. SE4 does NOT like typos. I accidently put "q" rather than "2" for an entry in components.txt.. barfed, no error message given other than unable to load.

Tip: Se4 interprets two empty lines as the end of the file. Good to isolate sections of the file (to troubleshoot) without actually needing to remove them.

Phoenix-D

[This message has been edited by Phoenix-D (edited 26 August 2001).]

Re: New tech mod plan
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>What ELSE does the AI research automatticly?Probably SM if it feels cut off from the rest of the universe.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

One of the AI "states" is "Not Connected". The AI's research file should have the neccessary techs listed under that state.

------------------
Cap'n Q

The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the
human mind to correlate all of its contents. We live on a placid
island of ignorance in the midst of black seas of infinity, and it was
not meant that we should go far. -- HP Lovecraft, "The Call of Cthulhu"

Re: New tech mod plan
 

It's here. Beta 1. This uses the standard SE4 propulsion system; I'll make changes to that later. Also, no changes to intel for this Version.

My email is in the readme if you find any problems.

Enjoy http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

Phoenix-D

[This message has been edited by Phoenix-D (edited 26 August 2001).]

Re: New tech mod plan
 

Beta 2. Added the Decoys, made some bug fixes and balance changes to the Point-defense weapons.

Phoenix-D

[This message has been edited by Phoenix-D (edited 01 September 2001).]

Re: New tech mod plan
 

Phoenix : glad you like my utility http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/ima...ons/icon12.gif
By the way, I have to say that this work you have been doing is amazing http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif This modularisation of all the tech levels and so on is great.
Can't wait for the next Version http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/ima...ons/icon10.gif

------------------
The Unofficial Space Empires 4 Mod Utility V2.0
------------------
Download as a .ZIP &lt;HERE&gt;
Download as a .RAR &lt;HERE&gt;
Download as a .ACE &lt;HERE&gt;
Check a Screenshot of it&lt;HERE&gt;

Check an Alpha Shot of my Mod Editor (Unreleased) &lt;HERE&gt;

Re: New tech mod plan
 

Couple of suggestions:
1. Note in the readme file the major changes to existing items (e.g. Emotionless costs 500 now)
2. Note on the ComponentSizes the size of base / ship etc that you can use the item on (e.g. Base Seige Mounts)
3. Add lots of stuff http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: New tech mod plan
 

Probably should do that, yeah. An actual list of *all* the changes is gonna take a while, though..

Phoenix-D

Re: New tech mod plan
 

And here you thought this thread was going to go away. WRONG! ;-)

Anyway, Tech Mod Beta 3 should be availble sometime tonight or tommorow. I added a dump of components, (Singularity Beam..full-sized Rocket Pods..fighter plague bombs..*shiver*), changed pictures around, and am in the process of making the AIs I have TechMod compatable.

Phoenix-D

Re: New tech mod plan
 

Beta 3 has arrived.. now with AI!

Granted, it's probably pretty stupid, but still..

Just extract into your SE4 directory to install, and as always email me at dphoenix_d@yahoo.com with suggestions and bugs.

EDIT: updated to beta 3.1. All that's changed is a very minor Star Colony fix.

Phoenix-D

[This message has been edited by Phoenix-D (edited 02 September 2001).]

[This message has been edited by Phoenix-D (edited 03 September 2001).]

Re: New tech mod plan
 

ARG!

The Star Colony works.

The problem is it works too well! It's supposed to be a ruins tech, but it persists in showing up without that. Could someone please explain how to do ruins techs?

Phoenix-D

Re: New tech mod plan
 

Take a peek at the other ruins techs, and copy them.

Within the TechArea.txt,
"Unique Area := 4"
is the key, and must be set to a value greater than one.

Re: New tech mod plan
 

I did that, and it still shows up.

EDIT: DOH! Minor typo. I has 0 instead of 1 in thr required tech.

Phoenix-D

[This message has been edited by Phoenix-D (edited 02 September 2001).]

Re: New tech mod plan
 

Few other bug fixes, but I've got a fairly major AI problem.

The mod has upgraded Versions of some ships. The AI wil research them fine, but then it won't use them! Even when, say, Cruiser IV is available, it still uses cruiser I.

EDIT: OK, found a fix. Not the best way for it to work, but it will have to do. Adding 10k to each size as it's upgraded does the job. That won't work for fighters and sats though..

Phoenix-D

[This message has been edited by Phoenix-D (edited 03 September 2001).]

Re: New tech mod plan
 

Beta 4.5 time! Rollo pointed out a few problems.. fixed. Fighter cost increased, Missile Rack and Launcher adjusted, AI adjusted.

This is mostly because of Rollo being willing to stay up til 1 AM to do a fast test game with me http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif Bug fixes, changes to allow the AI to use the bigger ship sizes, AI changes for better early-game performance.

I kinda forgot about the "don't build ships above this size for so many turns" setting in the AI_settings file. So I had to go back and tell the AI to research some of the smaller ships to keep itself in the running until the big boys come on-line.

Phoenix-D

[This message has been edited by Phoenix-D (edited 04 September 2001).]

Re: New tech mod plan
 

Just finished up a single player test game.

Scores as of my elimination: (2402.4)
Amrorki: 155.7
Toltayan: 154.3
Krill: 149.2
Jarenar: 147.9
Terrans: 142.5
Drushoka: 138.1
Ukra-Tal: 133.7
Xi'Chung: 128
CueCappa: 119.5

I was immediately swamped by AIs, and in the need to defend myself, only got one colony out. I got a peace treaty with the Terrans, and neutralized the Xi'Chung via a repeat-order minefield. I went for the Warp cannons as weapons.

The Krill were to my south, and gave my serious problems. The warp point into their space was too far for me to mine it continuously, and they broke through. One turn, they got to my homeworld. The next, I was down to two homeworlds and a colony in the system to the north.

With a minefield blocking the Krill, I counterattacked with two destroyers. They met and were destroyed by a pair of Krill ships, inflicting only minimal damage. I couldn't replay that fight for some reason, SE4 spit out an error when I tried.

That turn, I decided I needed help. Earlier, I had secured non-agression treaties from every race but the Xi-Chung and Krill. I tried to get trade relations with them now. The terrans rebuffed me, everyone else accepted. I tried buttering up the Terrans, who has been sending attack fleets through my systems to hit the Xi'Cung.

BAD idea. Next turn, the terrans break their treaty- without declaring war- and blockade my remaining worlds. Wham, bam, that's the game for me..

Phoenix-D

Re: New tech mod plan
 

Beta 4.6- fixed the Mass Driver, it only had one tech level needed instead of two. Fixed the mounts so the lower tech ships can use them too.

Phoenix-D

Re: New tech mod plan
 

Still going. Right now, I'm trying to find a better way of upgrading ships..the chassis screen just gets too messy.

Phoenix-D

Re: New tech mod plan
 

Update: Beta 5 is almost finished. Just need a few permissions, and the AI. Major changes- I've dropped III, IV extra ship sizes; couldn't get them to balance right, to say nothing of the clutter. Added the P&N 2.x style movement, as well.

Phoenix-D

Re: New tech mod plan
 

While I have yet to *try* your mod, it sounds great to me, and I look forward to putting it on my machine at home.

Just wondering if you'd like some more ideas on new technologies. If so, please read on, if not... well I'll never know if you read this will I http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

1) Reflective Shields
- reflect incoming 'beam weapon' damage back at the attacker. Sort of ablative armor with some punch.
- excess incoming damage is then applied to the defenders' normal shields, armor, etc.
- It seems a good idea to limit the power of these shields a little.. only 50% of the energy is reflected back? a lower to-hit chance? Make the component expensive? 1 weapon blocked/reflective shield generator?
* General Tech Tree? Crystal Tech Tree?

2) Reciprocal Capacitors
- component holds a certain level of energy in specialized capacitors (200 - 300 pts)
- when an attacker's (direct fire) weapon successfully hits the defender, the capacitors energy travels back down the attacker's beam to do reciprocal damage.
- chance to hit should be 100% regardless of any/all modifiers because the capacitor is using the incoming shot as a tracer... sort of like lightning from the sky following the tracer from the ground.
- firing rate could be dependent upon the number of engines on board (ie fire rate = 30/# of engines) This would encourage the use of smaller ships like the cruiser which can carry more engines than the mega ships like the dreadnought.
* General Tech Tree? Energy Manipulation Tech Tree?

3) Chlorophyll Shields
- a shielding that converts a certain amount of (beam) damage into extra combat movement and/or supplies. Excess damage is then applied to normal shields, etc.
* Biological Manipulation Tech Tree

4) Spore Pods
- crew safety pods. Crew held in suspended animation in spore pods when their ship explodes in combat.
- The crew gains experience from their ordeal.
- When the crew is rescued, their experience points are shared between the remaining ships due to their re-assignment.
- due to their very small size, the spores cannot be shot by enemies? Only destroyed by pt.def. weapons? Act as mines/satelites - that is, they stay in space until rescued or destroyed.
* Bio Tech Tree. There could be Crystal or Temporal equivalents


Anyone can feel free to run with these ideas, modify or change 'em. Don't bother crediting me, that's not necessary.


------------------
-Jimbob

Re: New tech mod plan
 

Could you give any hint as to how you plan to implement these without hardcode changes?

The only part I can see happening reasonably well is the "negating some damage" part, using crystalline ability, or the V1.42+ fixed emissive armor ability.

Re: New tech mod plan
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jimbob:
[b]While I have yet to *try* your mod, it sounds great to me, and I look forward to putting it on my machine at home.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Wait til beta 5, at least http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif Big changes.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Just wondering if you'd like some more ideas on new technologies. If so, please read on, if not... well I'll never know if you read this will I http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif[quote]

1) Reflective Shields
- reflect incoming 'beam weapon' damage back at the attacker. Sort of ablative armor with some punch.
- excess incoming damage is then applied to the defenders' normal shields, armor, etc.
- It seems a good idea to limit the power of these shields a little.. only 50% of the energy is reflected back? a lower to-hit chance? Make the component expensive? 1 weapon blocked/reflective shield generator?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Can't be done currently. Aaron (i.e. Malfador, the SE4 coder) would need to hard code this sort of thing in.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>* General Tech Tree? Crystal Tech Tree?

2) Reciprocal Capacitors
- component holds a certain level of energy in specialized capacitors (200 - 300 pts)
- when an attacker's (direct fire) weapon successfully hits the defender, the capacitors energy travels back down the attacker's beam to do reciprocal damage.
- chance to hit should be 100% regardless of any/all modifiers because the capacitor is using the incoming shot as a tracer... sort of like lightning from the sky following the tracer from the ground.
- firing rate could be dependent upon the number of engines on board (ie fire rate = 30/# of engines) This would encourage the use of smaller ships like the cruiser which can carry more engines than the mega ships like the dreadnought.
* General Tech Tree? Energy Manipulation Tech Tree?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>See above http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon9.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>3) Chlorophyll Shields
- a shielding that converts a certain amount of (beam) damage into extra combat movement and/or supplies. Excess damage is then applied to normal shields, etc.
* Biological Manipulation Tech Tree<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Ditto..

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>4) Spore Pods
- crew safety pods. Crew held in suspended animation in spore pods when their ship explodes in combat.
- The crew gains experience from their ordeal.
- When the crew is rescued, their experience points are shared between the remaining ships due to their re-assignment.
- due to their very small size, the spores cannot be shot by enemies? Only destroyed by pt.def. weapons? Act as mines/satelites - that is, they stay in space until rescued or destroyed.
* Bio Tech Tree. There could be Crystal or Temporal equivalents<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Can't be done.


Anyone can feel free to run with these ideas, modify or change 'em. Don't bother crediting me, that's not necessary.

If I could, I would. Can't be done unfortuately. That would take something more on the order of a Half-Life mod, not just the editing of text files SE4 has. You can do a lot, but you've got set boundries that can only be stretched a bit.

Phoenix-D

Re: New tech mod plan
 

Suicide,

No idea as to how to implement any of these ideas. I'm just a humble private, first-class http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif


Pheonix,

Errr... yeah, that sucks. Well some good ideas for a future Version I suppose. Thanks for your input, probably save me a lot of effort trying to make these mods.

Re: New tech mod plan
 

Here's TechMod beta 5.. sorta.

I ran into a roadblock of sorts getting the AI to deal with all the changes I made. Now, with the patch coming, I don't want to go in and make changes I'll just have to revise later.

So. No AI in this Version, but it's otherwise all there. If you want playablity, stick with the Last Version. If you want a preview of what's coming, check this out.

Still shopping around for ideas, too. I'm thinking about tweaking the racial tech trees, since the stuff I've added has done weird things to some of them, and adding a normal-tree armor-piercing weapon. I need to look at the PPB again too.

Phoenix-D