What generates gems?
 

What generates gems?
Lots of sites generate gems, they are fairly well documented.

Some items produce gems. They can be found as a special effect in the list of items in the manual.

Random events can sometimes have a significant effect on gem income. Exact stats and mechanics unknown.

Some Pretender Gods generate gems, this is documented in their flavor text and in Dom3DB with the gems(X) ability under Special.

What else generates gems?
The ritual Summon Sea Kings Court summons a Sea King who generates one water gem per month. This is undocumented.

Are there any other summons (or other things) that generate gems?

So far;
Summon Troll Kings Court W3 55 gems
- Sea King produces one water gem per month

Bind Demon Lord B9 150 slaves
- One of the (four) unique Demon Lords, Belphegor, "attracts slaves and milita". Exact figures unknown

Bind Arch Devil B4F2 99 slaves
- One of the (five) unique Arch Devils, Barathrus, produces one earth gem per month
- One of the (five) unique Arch Devils, Furcas, produces one fire gem per month

Re: What generates gems?
 

The enchantress pretender makes an astral a turn. There is an anubis (Hoth?) like pretender who makes death and I think there is another pretender who makes 2 water. I know there are a couple more but brain is nearly dead atm so..

Re: What generates gems?
 

If you're mentioning pretenders, one of the druids (can't recall if it's the arch druid or the other one) generates a nature gem each month... I think. Fairly certain he does.

Re: What generates gems?
 

It is the arch druid (the one on the horse) who generates a nature gem each turn.

Re: What generates gems?
 

I was looking at things other than pretenders, since the ones that do produce things have it documented in their descriptions.

I'm sure there are others, off the top of my head;
(and from the awesome Dom3BD)

Great Enchantress
- 55 points, one astral pearl per month

Mother of Rivers
- 75 points, two waters gems per month

Lady of Springs
- 125 points, two water gems per month

Arch Druid
- 35 points, one nature gem per month

Daughter of the Land
- 50 points, one water gem per month

Re: What generates gems?
 

TheWetFish, there are a lot of things that are not documented in the manual. Units that produce gems generally don't mention that or a lot of other invisible (or previously invisible) attributes.

If you want a thorough reference document, take a look at the Dom 3 DB thread here on the forum.

Re: What generates gems?
 

One of the Arch Devils produces one fire gem per month and Barathrus the King of Deeper Earth produces earth gems.

Re: What generates gems?
 

Barathrus the earth king produces an E, and one of the Arch devils produces a F, I believe.

Re: What generates gems?
 

Thanks for the help. I'm looking through the Dom3DB (for the first time). Where am I looking for the attribute that produces gems?

I'm using the summoned Sea King as an example.

In retrospect units like the pretender Great Enchantress have "Gems(1S)" in the Special column of the Dom3BD.
The Sea King only has "Grants water breathing"

Belphegor does not have any notation in the Special column of the Dom3DB (at all)
Barathrus does have "gems(1E)"

The Dom3DB is awesome, but it seems this is partially undocumented. So far Belphegor, ID# 810 and Sea King, ID# 580 are the only known units that produce gems are are not documented in the Dom3DB.

Re: What generates gems?
 

You're off to a great start in these forums. Most people forget to list unit IDs when they report problems with the database.

Re: What generates gems?
 

Thanks for mentioning that those gem producers are not listed, because they should be in the special column. It's been a LONG while since I added anything with an ID less than 1700 into the DB, so this sort of reports are good. I'm not infallible, so reports like this are the only way to get this sort of oversights noticed.

And as Endo said, exemplary performance right off the bat. Having the unit number means I can immediately find what I'm looking for. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: What generates gems?
 

In the op list you forgot to mention that some spells generate gems.
Most on a per turn basis (Gale Gate, ...), but some others too, like the air spell that converts corpses into death gems (which I don't believe anyone uses btw).

Re: What generates gems?
 

I did forget about them. I'm not too fussed, they are well documented (I think).

Raven Feast (A4 Conj 5, 4 gems) is actually fairly good. It's a very niche spell but for 4 gems you clear out all of the unburied corpses in a province. The death gems are just a bonus. You will very rarely need to clear unburied corpses but for 4 gems and some lost research time you can slow down undead races.

Re: What generates gems?
 

I've also used it as an air nation trying to diversify into death magic. It can get you gems for Dark Knowledge cheaper than alchemy. Not a major source, but if you've got Air gems and you're thinking of alchemizing to get Death...

Re: What generates gems?
 

Whenever possible it's better to use those corpses for casting carrion reanimation.... unless your opponent has acquired and can use undead mastery.

Re: What generates gems?
 

Luck scales will generate gems.

Re: What generates gems?
 

Quantify that please. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/redface.gif


http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: What generates gems?
 

At least once?

Re: What generates gems?
 

Late Age, all nations started with 9 provinces and had identical dominion value, probably about 6, and never conquered new provinces:

Arcos, Order 3 Misf 2 Magic 3:
turn 1: 400, +961/turn
turn 30: 27k, +920/turn, 7 gems

Man, Order 3 Luck 3 Drain 3
turn 1: 400, +959/turn
turn 30: 30k, +1064/turn, 55 gems
got Ice Sword (constr 0), Blood Stone (constr 4)

Tien Chi, Order 3 Growth 2 Misfortune 2 Magic 1
turn 1: 400, +1200/turn
turn 30: 38k, +1400/turn, 19 gems

Agartha, Or 1 Death 1 Luck 3 Magic 1
turn 1: 400, +900/turn
turn 30: 26k, +890/turn, 96 gems
got Owl Quill, Ring of Fire (both constr 2)


Source: me.

Re: What generates gems?
 

In a MP game, I had the lucky event for nature which give me +22N gems in one go, wow! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/cool.gif

Re: What generates gems?
 

I can never tell how many gems I get from the gem events. I guess I dont keep good enough track of my gem totals.

Re: What generates gems?
 

Water and Nature have better gem-producing events. "Some water gems have floated ashore" and some spesific nature event. When you get blood slaves, you also get quite a lot of them. If you have hunters the amount won't be significant, but if you DON'T, few good events may GIVE you a hunter!

Re: What generates gems?
 

Well it's easy to tell how many you get if you aren't generating any of that type, otherwise you may not be keeping such a close eye on it. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif

That's an interesting test Endo, I think I might do one as well, I'll brb with it.

Re: What generates gems?
 

Did you follow the link at the end? Those are the least detailed results out of three or four similar tests I made.

Terrain affects the results. Especially gold, because if you get 5 farmlands out of 9 provinces you'll have more money than those who have only one or two farms, even if they had better scales. Events are also affected, but except for coastal provinces I didn't notice anything spesific. Coasts are good: you can get sirens, heap of water gems, blood slaves from the slave vessels, etc.

Re: What generates gems?
 

I started all nations with even scales other than luck, putting all remaining points into Dominion with an awake pretender, most were 9-10 Dom. I did not look at them until the end, didn't make PD or build anything, and didn't recover lost provinces.

After 20 turns running, starting with 9 provinces -

Arcoscephale - 3 Luck
Provinces left - 9
Total gold - 22709
Total gems - 169
Heroes gained - 0

Ermor - 3 Luck
Provinces left - 7
Total gold - 19155
Total gems - 146
Heroes gained - 0

Ulm - 2 Luck
Provinces left - 9
Total gold - 24041
Total gems - 221
Heroes gained - 1

Marverni - 2 Luck
Provinces left - 9
Total gold - 18935
Total gems - 169
Heroes gained - 1

T'ien Chi - 1 Luck
Provinces left - 8
Total gold - 17026
Total gems - 175
Heroes gained - 2

Abysia - 1 Luck
Provinces left - 8
Total gold - 14653
Total gems - 174
Heroes gained - 0

Caelum - Even Scale
Provinces left - 8
Total gold - 19697
Total gems - 145
Heroes gained - 1

C'tis - Even Scale
Provinces left - 8
Total gold - 14789
Total gems - 170
Heroes gained - 0

Pangaea - 1 Misfortune
Provinces left - 9
Total gold - 14713
Total gems - 208
Heroes gained - 0

Agartha - 1 Misfortune
Provinces left - 8
Total gold - 21828
Total gems - 138
Heroes gained - 0

Tir' na n'Og - 2 Misfortune
Provinces left - 7
Total gold - 14998
Total gems - 185
Heroes gained - 0

Fomoria - 2 Misfortune
Provinces left - 6
Total gold - 20248
Total gems - 119
Heroes gained - 1

Niefelheim - 3 Misfortune
Provinces left - 8
Total gold - 16096
Total gems - 199
Heroes gained - 0

R'lyeh - 3 Misfortune
Provinces left - 6
Total gold - 14488
Total gems - 178
Heroes gained - 0


Totals -

Luck Group:
Provinces - 50
Gold - 116519
Gems - 1054 (Net 334 after 720 base income at capital)
Heroes - 4

Control Group:
Provinces - 16 (x3 = 48)
Gold - 34486 (x3 = 103458)
Gems - 315 (x3 = 945) (Net 75 after 240 base income)
Heroes - 1 (3)

Misfortune Group:
Provinces - 44
Gold - 102371
Gems - 927 (Net 207 after base income)
Heroes - 1

Disparity between Luck/Misf over 20 turns (per nation)=
Provinces Lost = 1 (5% greater chance)
Gold Income = 14148 (2358/nation, ~120/turn including territorial losses)
Gem Income = 127 (21/nation, ~1/turn including random lvl 0 sites in starting provinces)
Heroes = 3 (.5/nation, not statistically relevant to known formula due to small sample size)


I really think I might run more tests later, using all EA nations at each level of Luck/Misf, 1 at a time. I'll have to be bored to do it, but that happens plenty often enough. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: What generates gems?
 

Ah yes I see Endo, yurs was done more to test comparison between Luck and Order though it looks like? I'm trying to compare Luck and Misf.

And I see I neglected to consider magic items, I'll append that data here, and be sure to include it in my further tests (glad I hadn't quit out of that game yet!) -


Ulm - Black Laurel (Yay?)
T'ien Chi - Ring of the Warrior
(Luck = 2 items)
Control Group - No Items
Fomoria - Weightless Kite Shield, Crystal Matrix
(Misf = 2 items)


Definitely needs more testing, this first run doesn't make Luck look worth points really, I'd guess in most cases putting them in Growth would have been a better investment, in this game. More to come!

Re: What generates gems?
 

Jim,

Was this on Events = common or rare? It's interesting, it really does make Luck look pretty worthless.

-Max

Re: What generates gems?
 

Was set to default for event frequency. Everything in the game was default, save for Luck Scale, Dominion Strength, and # of Starting Provinces.

Re: What generates gems?
 

I'd like to see it with different magic scales too.. I think a high magic scale might give more gems too

Re: What generates gems?
 

Well I was thinking about it, if I do full setups of 20+ nations at each level of Luck scale, I can give them a range of other scales as well, so the results can be micro-analyzed.

But still, if taking Luck + Drain ends up giving no clear benefit, in effect negating the effects of the luck, those points would be hands down better in a +income scale. I hardly see anyone saying "I consider my points in luck to be well spent if I get 1 hero in the first 20 turns of the game", you know?

Re: What generates gems?
 

Dominion spread affects the early game. All test nations should have equal dominion, and preferably not too high. Dominion 9 will take a long time spreading everywhere, because the provinces have to max out before the extra faith "spills over". I suggest using dom 6.

Luck nations will be vulnerable to bad events early on, and Misfortune nations may get good good events, before the dominion has spread and scales have set. Running the games for longer will descrease the dominion factor, but there's bigger chance of province rebellion etc.


EDIT: I've been testing MA Ulm, Luck 3 Drain 3. You still get gem events, but magic items and mages are rare, and I think you get fewer gems but that could be just a feeling. Luck 3 was about equal to Order 3 as far as generating income over time goes, when you've only got few provinces, in addition to the other events. And Production happens to work well with Luck, because the mine events and traders' guilds give you permanent boosts to income and/or resources.

Re: What generates gems?
 

But with Dom 9 and an awake pretender, your temple checks, of which you will get quite a few, will nearly always succeed.

I should go through and give them each a prophet in the first turn.

Also, there was a recent thread where IIRC KO states that Luck scale only matters in your home province, and once it has determined what kind of events you will have for the turn, it selects what province they happen in, and determines which exact event happens.

(Edit: Here it is, it was JO - [url=http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/threads/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=dom3&Number=612131 &Forum=)

It's a few posts down, I have no idea how to get a link to a specific post on the page. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/redface.gif

Re: What generates gems?
 

No, I don't really take luck for heroes. It's the gems, and the occasional income event. If a nation doesn't have expensive mages outside of the capital or expensive units intregal to a strategy, I value the gems much more than the gold; you can't buy gems.

~70 gems on average more over 20 turns is pretty significant to me (that's 3 a turn without turmoil!). I think that a better test is to pit order/misfortune against luck/turmoil point for point. Luck 3/Turmoil 3 will probably yield a lot more gems than plain Luck 3, I'd imagine. The more common random good events are, the more gems you'll get; it's probably the most common good event you'll see. Don't most people who take high order balance it with misfortune and vice/versa? I'd think so. Those results would probably be more representative.

Or maybe most people don't do that? I know I do.

In any case, I will say that Luck is much worse on larger maps because of the event limit.

Re: What generates gems?
 

~70 average over 20 turns? Where do you see that, my breakdown for that test showed an average of 21 over 20 turns. That was spread across the full range of Luck1-3 and Misf1-3, but the irony here is that the Misf3 nations BEAT the Luck3 nations in this test. And that's not even taking into account that some of the territories that were lost in events and never reclaimed, may have had lvl0 sites in them, further depressing the Misf incomes, even though a player would have recovered the site in real play.

As I said, I WILL however be doing more in depth testing with more sets of scale combinations, though I won't do them today, I am busy testing variations on a dual bless right now, so probably tomorrow. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif

And again, the large/small map argument is not really the point of THESE particular tests. I am including income figures simply because any chance to gather them is useful, but the primary goal here is to quantify the benefit to your gem income, and therefore your magic capacity. In that sense, in many combinations of scales the difference will in fact become more profound as you climb over 10 provinces, as I hardly can imagine that 9 is enough to guarantee you max events each turn (on the turn 21 that I gathered my data from, all 14 nations had between 0-2 events up).

Re: What generates gems?
 

Yeah, I read it wrong. My bad.

The map size comment was in general. Long/Large or Short/Small games make luck less atractive.

Re: What generates gems?
 

When I do the further tests, I will do a quick check on each nation (egads this is going to be tedious http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif) and do a check on lvl 0 sites, to get an accurate reading of their gem income on turn 1, and compare that to income listed on turn 21.

I do agree that the impact of luck is going to be less (or less welcome!) in smaller games. Not sure I agree so much on the long games though, the point in the long games, is that the luck is hopefully going to help you build up and operate more efficiently in the early/mid game. Yes the luck scale, and associated events impact less on a turn for turn basis later in the game, but if you got enough gems by then to get 1 more wish, or to get a couple more artifacts before other players, or to build out your first SC with top shelf gear rather than "what we had kicking around in the lab", then luck did its part to give you a better late game.

That is, IF it IS doing its part. With 1 test run, the overall variability of the events is seeming to have too wide a margin. The disparity between the L3 and Misf3 nations in gold in that first test is ~6000g apiece, which at that point is 300/turn, and is undeniably huge (L3 nations had 40% more gold than Misf3), but the Misf 3 nations had ~30 more gems apiece, even after losing territories. I'm not saying that's a fair trade, but when you're trading 6000g for 30 gems AND 240 design points, it starts looking like something one could work with.

At any rate, my deeper testing will involve running 7 games of 21 nations in each (yes I am insane), each game will be one luck scale at a time, and within each game, will be 3 nations set to each of the possible magic scales. So, 3 nations at each combination of Luck +/-3 and Magic +/-3. It will still be far from conclusive data, but it will give a broader picture.

If I'm ever making games, I will make sure this sort of testing can be automated, to pinpoint balance issues with minimal effort, but I'm looking for a lottery ticket for that to happen. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif

Re: What generates gems?
 

Wow, that's quite the test. I play with Luck a lot, and I see those gem events pop up the most frequently of all of the events. Hopefully a larger sample will show that I'm not delusional http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

You're right about both long and short games. I should have just stuck with the map size. I think moderate games benefit the most, at any rate. Enough provinces to grab the 3 events/turn consistently is the sweet spot. It would probably turn out to be a bell curve if you graphed the benefits, there's a point where luck operates at it's most efficient. Small maps you're not hitting the 3, and large maps you (should) gain many gems from many provinces making the total gain from random events a very small percentage of your total gem gain each turn, and the percentage increase from order would offer a larger gain because there's no cap on that.

The gold income from luck will also be interesting to see, although it's not related to this thread.

Good luck, hope you don't turn up insane somewhere after this http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

Re: What generates gems?
 

There's a reason that I like R'lyeh. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

If these tests give interesting results, I might run some on other scale combos, to fill in more of the blanks on how reliably those scales will actually affect gameplay.

Re: What generates gems?
 

Great work guys. I think we can safely say that random events can (possibly) generate large amounts of gems. Fair bit of testing but no complete or detailed breakdown of mechanics or exact stats, so I'm going to leave it at that.

The random event issue deserves it's own thread.

Are there any other sources not already covered?

Re: What generates gems?
 

I see. Luck still affects what exact event you get. I'm not sure if the gem events are luck-neutral or if they require luck, because I don't play with Misfortune. Gem LOSS events definitely won't happen in provinces with Luck, and I don't think I've seen blood slave rebellions either.

Re: What generates gems?
 

Gem events must be luck-neutral (in terms of scales required). I habitually play with Misfortune-3 and get lots of them even in Misfortune-3 provinces. Note that there is also a "witch cursed your troops" event that gives you gems which counts as neither a good nor a bad event.

-Max

Re: What generates gems?
 

Attached is a map for testing scales. Up to 8 MA human nations start with ten provinces, one of which is cave and one of which is sea. They are temperature-independent and there's a temple in each non-underwater province. Capitals are cleared, so that there're no starting troops, no upkeep differences, no initial gem income etc etc.

It seems I also covered a bug. Your capital is in one of the 8 middle provinces, but not necessarily in the one #specstart gives you. The castle you should start with is in there. This may cause e.g. Arcoscephale to start where Agarthan Cave castle has been put, and with 1 candle of Agarthan dominion. It doesn't affect actual scale/event testing, but does slow initial dominion.

Re: What generates gems?
 

On the above test map, I did a test of 4 Order 3/Misfortune 1 nations against 4 Luck 3/Turmoil 1 nations. Every pretender was a Dom10 Oracle, all other scales were neutral.

Unfortunately all Order nations lost at least 2 provinces (from 10), so the results aren't easily comparable. Luck nations got so many more gems than the Order nations that I feel pretty confident with my earlier claim that Luck does, indeed, generate gems.

The four Order nations got 59, 23, 10 and 2 gems, while the four Luck nations got 135, 121, 112 and 25 gems during the 40 turns.

Turn 10: Order nations 4 gems total, Luck nations 51
Turn 20: Order 38 gems, Luck 186 gems
Turn 30: Order 76 gems, Luck 290 gems
Turn 40: Order 94 gems, Luck 393 gems

No one got Astral pearls or blood slaves. Death gems were a little less numerous than other gem types. Water and Earth were the most numerous, but not by much.

Re: What generates gems?
 

Nice.

I'm still looking for a proper afternoon to run a thorough test. With the smaller map (nice setup for testing this btw, thank you!), I'll have to run 21 games to get the body of data that I want. So, obviously it'll take a few hours. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif

Re: What generates gems?
 

There's a small problem with the map. One of the provinces (second land province from the left) has double-sized white pixel in it, so it has become two provinces. I might widen that a bit if the map is used, so that it's easier to tell the two provinces there apart. I don't want to remove the provinces because it'd wreck the numbering.

Oh, and if anyone runs any tests on this, please pay attention to events in provinces 11, 22, 33 etc. Those are caves, and there are probably lots of events that should be restricted to not happen in caves.

Re: What generates gems?
 

As long as there are enough for them all to start with 9, it's no real bother. I haven't been looking at individual provinces at all, I just do the count from Nation Overview to see how many they've lost, and grab the rest of the numbers from the overview bar.

Re: What generates gems?
 

Everyone has 11 provinces already given to them. That's why it lists what nations should be used. You don't have to touch the "new game" settings at all: there are no random magic sites, there are no independents, all provinces that a nation can get it already has. Making the pretenders is more work, but if you make them once in Game Tools even that's fast. That only leaves actual turn generation, and number crunching. The most boring part was "22 fire, plus 18 air, plus 31 water, plus 12 earth, plus 11 death, plus 27 nature makes for, umm, 90-somethin, hmm..." It's easy enough to do for the first time, but your mind goes numb when you're at the eighth nation for the fourth time. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

Re: What generates gems?
 

Hehehe Yeah I wasn't going to do a breakdown by gem type. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif I've drilled myself on rapid arithmetic, so grabbing the data isn't too much of a bother, more of a light exercise than an exertion. But, sitting there making pretenders and generating turns, for..... well, a million test subjects, that's going to be pain. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: What generates gems?
 

I read this over as carefully as possible-considering I just woke up-and I'm not sure that anyone mentioned Abyssia EA's hero...lava child? or something? that generates 1 fire gem per turn.

Sorry, I'd list the unit number, but I don't have a computer with which to look it up.

Re: What generates gems?
 

No.