Turtlers and Rushers?
 

It was not until I played a 500 province map that I remember reading something about players being turtlers and rushers.

I realize now that I am defently a turtle. I expand slow and give priority to building up my defence instead of expancion. I counter my slow expancion with high dominion and very high city defence.

I've tried different strategies but I think Im stuck being a slow-and-steady type of player. Is it like that for everyone? Are you either a Turtle (Defensive) or Rusher (offencive)?

The Defensive strategy works best for small maps and offencive on bigger ones, I've come to learn from my experience.

Re: Turtlers and Rushers?
 

Closer to offensive than defensive in the early game, because I hate losing the economic war and you need provinces for gems. Later on I turtle a bit as I'm doing research and building up resources for my second war, just because I find a never-ending offensive psychologically draining. I like to bite off a discrete chunk of war, finish it, and pause for a bit before beginning the next war.

-Max

Re: Turtlers and Rushers?
 

In my experience most dom players seem to be total turtlers. They like to sit back and research, build up etc before attacking someone clearly weaker, usually from fighting and usually with the help of another turtler ally or three.

Aggressive people often get ganked for being too big too early or are weakened by fighting and get outpaced by turtlers who were left alone to get too strong.

Re: Turtlers and Rushers?
 

Whether you turtle or rush depends on what nation you are playing. If you are playing a nation which blew all its scales for a huge bless on awesome sacreds then you need to attack without ceasing or you will lose. On the other hand if you are playing a nation with awesome, cheap researchers, then you will probably want to turtle for a long time until you have reached magical dominance.

Sombre, I think the pattern of play you have noticed is what occurs in most games... but your application of "turtler" to most players is excessive. After all, a player which is too agressive will be ganged. But a player who turtles too often will be dwarfed by more aggressive neighbors. I have found most dom players to be a mix of the two.

Re: Turtlers and Rushers?
 

Playing a lot of strategy games in SP mode teaches you to turtle. AIs universally tend to be hyperaggressive, and you eventually learn that an unassailable defense means that -anything- that you accumulate over time is an advantage over the computer who is flailing impotently against your walls.

I found that win Dom3, even in SP, the best way to force yourself to understand aggression, is to learn how to build an awake SC. Bear in mind, at first you probably won't do it right, and he'll get afflicted and/or die within the first several turns. After several tries, experimenting with Fear, and Awe, and easily accessed buffs, you will start to get the hang of it. But the trick is to force yourself to use the SC to take a constant string of territories, while still performing your normal expansion attacks with your other forces. So for example as a nation and/or player that tends to just take 1 province per turn for the first year, try to keep yourself gaining 2 per turn, with the aid of your SC.

Then you get to experience the next frustrating thing, being slightly overextended and having 2-3 AIs suddenly declare war on you on opposite sides of your empire before you can get forts in place on your front lines to hold them off. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif

Re: Turtlers and Rushers?
 

It's balance, really, isn't it?

Your main resources are gold and mages. Gold that goes into troops can't go into mages and castles. Mages that are out fighting don't do research or site searching. But rushing = territory = money & gems = more mages and castles.

If you over-rush or over-turtle, either way you'll potentially get yourself into trouble by being overextended and underdeveloped, or being too economically small. Possibly you either want to expand at someone's expense by picking on the weak or allying, so you can grow with one hand and develop with the other. Alternatively, maybe go all-out against an opponent, and then consolidate your gains for a while, and switch between development and war.

Re: Turtlers and Rushers?
 

Turtling only works in the long run if you can clam (the other gem producers to a lesser extent).
Sure, getting in protracted wars too early is a big problem, but you need to keep expanding your economy. If you can clam, you can do that without actually taking more territory, since gems become the real resource later in the game. If you can't, you need to get more gems by taking territory, which means fighting other nations.

I think 'rush' is generally used to mean very early attacks, to take an opponent out while most are still in the indy expansion phase.
While "turtling" usually is used for a strategy of avoiding war, after the initial expansion, until the endgame.
Most strategies, whether more or less aggressive, lie in between.

Re: Turtlers and Rushers?
 

There's also the added factor that for some nations the simple upkeep of a war machine is a big problem - their battle mages are not their cost effective researchers etc

So if they have their war machine rolling it's best to keep using it - if it hasn't taken losses it's just sitting around eating upkeep.

Re: Turtlers and Rushers?
 

...wears a "I am not a turtle!" lapel pin!

Re: Turtlers and Rushers?
 

I'd say, in general, turtling really doesn't exist in Dominions "gameplay" (in quotes for a reaon to be revealed later). Turtling means not playing slow per se, but investing in your defense. And defense comes in three forms: PD, forts, and a few globals. The globals aren't viable to late game, so I'd say they're not a real turtle defense. PD in general is weak and certainly won't stop any reasonably supported army or equiped SC. That leaves forts, but unless you find a choke point they're too expensive to use in that capacity.

That being said, one can still turtle using "diplomacy." Just make a lot of NAPs, buy players off and otherwise keep your nation safe and hope nobody decides to attack.

Re: Turtlers and Rushers?
 

I'd say that defense is something else but PD and forts. It means more like holding important border provinces with armies ready to destroy invaders rather than using the armies to attack.

Nobody will survive long with only forts and PD.

The point is rather - and as almost everything else in Dominions - depending on the situation.

If you have good troops and poor perspectives when research starts to be important you have to be a rusher.

If you miss sufficient gems of a particularly important kind you have to expand to find income.

If you came out of the box ahead with a decent income and mages that profit from research you'll be better off guarding what you have - for a while.

If you are in a decent position and have potential for the endgame, I think it's best to pick the oportunities that will show up inevitably.

Re: Turtlers and Rushers?
 

Turtling is rather taking a risk and building research mages instead of battle mages. Site searching securely all your lands. Building forts and spreading dominions. Using gems on items/summons instead of battle spells. Not worrying about hunting raiders, getting rid of unrest that comes with that etc. And preparing your next move in that time. But it all can only work if you are around top in stats when it comes to provinces.

Re: Turtlers and Rushers?
 

Either way can be a gamble. And can be done right or wrong.

Im not so much in applying it as "depends on the nation you are playing". I tend to say it the other way around, instead of the nation choosing your style, that your style might choose your nation. People tend to have a playing style that they feel natural in. Its their favorite way of playing. They should try everything of course but I feel that the best players (or at least the ones having the most fun) are those who decide on their style and then match it to the nation which best fits it. That would be true of turtlers or rushers. Those who play defensive researchers need to choose their nation for it just as those who prefer horde swarming would have to pick appropriately to that.

By the way I dont feel that those are the only two choices either. Guerilla, paratrooper, diplomat, ally, checkerboard, assassin, and dominion are all playable styles

Re: Turtlers and Rushers?
 

I play dominions very defensively.

Re: Turtlers and Rushers?
 

Of course at some point you have to decide when to stop being just defensive. I forgot to mention the mix style I call "bursting dam". Defensive growth of a major army and when the other guy reachs you all worn out from fighting his way to you, then you burst forth like a wave of water going as far and fast as you can before wearing yourself out. Then tax to the max and buildup fast for the return strike from them. Sometimes using heavy purchase of PD near him for a buffer. Its also a favorite tactic for people who consider themselves "defensive but dont piss me off" revenge-style players.

Re: Turtlers and Rushers?
 

IMHO, PD + Lab + Mages (doing research) is a better defense than a fort. Forts make better factories, but unforted provinces let researchers synergize with PD.

-Max

Re: Turtlers and Rushers?
 

Oh, you can definitely turtle in dominions. Tho perhaps not as easily as games like MOO or Civ. In dominions, turtling really only comes naturally to Underwater nations, since they have the water-barrier to act as a virtual wall on all thier provinces. Beyond that, there are a handful of nations which are ok for turtling. Is there still a CTis version with Miasma dominion? They were the best land turtler, if there still is one. The other nations with nasty dominion effects as well.

Re: Turtlers and Rushers?
 

I always thought that some of the heavy research nations, particularly if they had strong bless abilities, made good turtlers.

Re: Turtlers and Rushers?
 

Taking a strong bless conflicts with turtling. The main benefit from a bless comes early. There are more counters as more magic is researched. And the bless comes at the expense of scales which would help a turtler, bringing in more money and growing population. Bad scales mean you need to expand faster just to stay even.

Getting a research lead is good, but it means nothing without the gems to support it. Which means territory, which means wars. Or it means clams. I still maintain that the turtling strategy in dominions is based around clams. Strong defense may discourage attack, good research is needed, but can often be gotten through items, but gems producing items are the only way to expand your economy without expanding territory.

Re: Turtlers and Rushers?
 

Well its just like "they" say Defense is the Best offence. One of my favorite strats is the counter attack. When an enemy gives out a MASSIVE attack on a high Defence city you can easyly counter by attaking cities neighboring the place. It will usually be free of enemy army. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Turtlers and Rushers?
 

I'm pretty sure the saying is "A good offense is the best defense." http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Turtlers and Rushers?
 

ahhhhhh the other side of the coin

Re: Turtlers and Rushers?
 

The real saying is "A good offense is the best defense"... and that's exactly what a counter-attack is about : not defending but attacking instead, regardless of consequences.

Dominions favors turtling though. At mid and end-game it becomes more and more difficult to defend large armies when moving, forcing you to use troops as defense mostly. It's to be expected when a single unit can kill hundreds or thousands by itself.

Re: Turtlers and Rushers?
 

It is, in fact, the art of war. In reality, you cannot win without acting, however it is a dance of acting in a way which reveals no weaknesses, whilst forcing your opponent to make moves that will give his weaknesses away.

And without the actual loss of thousands of potentially innocent lives, it becomes a rather beautiful thing. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif

Re: Turtlers and Rushers?
 

2nd favorite nation: Nifleheim: Bring cold death to everybody you see (except Abysia, first bring dominion to them, then attack).

Most favorite nation: Marverni: Push research at all cost, gem income second, while gathering quite a number of druids. Hope that the druids are combat ready when you need them.

It's both nice.

Re: Turtlers and Rushers?
 

Some may consider rusher to be someone who captures independents in a line away from his capitol in order to quickly reach and destroy someone who is not expanding quickly and is perceived to still have a weak army and therefore be an easy target. I expand slowly away from my starting capitol in expanding concentric circles which could be considered a form of turtling until a rusher meets the outside ring, then my production advantage pays off. This kind of reflects what Gandalf was saying. I also like to get my construction to level 4 asap, for weapons, equipment, and to accelerate research with Skull Mentor.

By the way, mercenaries are great for their price and tremendously help expansion especially in the early part of the game.

Re: Turtlers and Rushers?
 

I'm definitely a turtler.

However, recently I've forced myself to be a lot more aggressive in playstyle, and it's been more fun and enjoyable.

Re: Turtlers and Rushers?
 

That defenetly sounds like fun. I wonder how a Kamikazy strategy would work going all out with no PD. :eek:

Re: Turtlers and Rushers?
 

Some scouts or even bare indie commanders would be able to conquer all the territories you leave behind with your kamikazes and probably going deep into your territory also ^_^

Re: Turtlers and Rushers?
 

I'm willing to agree that the player is more important then the nation when it comes to play style. The nation is, more often then not, a tool for that person's style. If the nation does not facilitate that style, then, more often then not, that player will refrain from choosing that nation.

As for my style, I like high research and taking things one turn at a time. I'm always willing to end a war on the spot if the opponent gives me reason to. I determine that some times it is better to turtle while at other times I recognize the need to take aggressive action. For that reason I like it best when I can build a nation with options. I like my researchers to be competent battle casters. I hate nothing more then being tied to an aggressive rush strategy. It's one of the basic reasons why I will never triple bless ever again... unless I'm LA Ermor.

Re: Turtlers and Rushers?
 

I've tried a full on kamikazi with Sombre's Warhammer Ogres-and even though I individually ended up conquering just about every province and nation that I came across (I had something like 12 slave giants with my army), but I got so over-extended without having PD and defensive armies in place to provide good income, that it ended up a grueling grindfest by the lateish middle game, even on a very small map.

So if you have a lot of nations to play against, then it doesn't work so well, but only 1 or 2, and it can really work out great.

Re: Turtlers and Rushers?
 

Ooooh I love blesses!

I basically try to rush to choke points - and then progress from there.

Re: Turtlers and Rushers?
 

It all depends on situation really, and its all about risk/reward and the cost of growth.

War is typically much more expensive than indie growth, so I will tend to avoid it, unless I am contesting land very early on with another nation.

To sit and not grow in land during the early stages I think is a bit suicidal, you will be outmatched by a decidedly larger opponent. I would only turtle if waiting for a key enabler, such as a specific spell critical to my strategy, or if any available war would likely cost me more than it would gain - in which case I'm in trouble as its guaranteed someone else on the map is going to be expanding.

Re: Turtlers and Rushers?
 

Sun Tzu says:
"Thus one who excels at warfare first establishes himself in a position where he cannot be defeated while not losing any opportunity to defeat the enemy."

Re: Turtlers and Rushers?
 

Well he can say what he want but that way he won't win Dominions 3 cus a position where you can't be defeated isn't that easy to obtain against much larger enemies in MP, they will catch up their research and then crush you.. ir just crush you right away :D

Re: Turtlers and Rushers?
 

You miss the beautiful clarity of Sun Tzu.....

You see, he didn't say "delude yourself into thinking you cannot be defeated".

Re: Turtlers and Rushers?
 

'Know your enemy, know yourself, and in a thousand battles you'll never suffer a single defeat.'

My copy of Sun Tzu is around here somewhere, but I'd have to look for it...so that might not be the exact wording.

Re: Turtlers and Rushers?
 

Sun Tzu had never heard about an open ended D6...

Re: Turtlers and Rushers?
 

Sun Tsu took 100 concubines and with them defeated the best of chinas professional forces.

I think he could handle an open ended d6.

Re: Turtlers and Rushers?
 

Knowing yourself and your enemy won't help that much if you're outnumbered 10:1 and fighting with sticks n stones against guns.

CHRIS STOP SENDING ME TURN FILES FOR THAT DAMN GAME I'VE FINISHED LONG AGO!!!

Re: Turtlers and Rushers?
 

I used to be a turtler, but now I am a rusher. I generally now take a pretender that can rush even if the army cannot. I will still turtle after the early rush is over. I just find it makes for a much more interesting game. And, if I am outclassed, it gets me out of the game early.

Re: Turtlers and Rushers?
 

yep, better to lose quickly than slowly!

Re: Turtlers and Rushers?
 

"Knowing yourself and your enemy won't help that much if you're outnumbered 10:1 and fighting with sticks n stones against guns."

Go tell that to the Ewoks :p

Re: Turtlers and Rushers?
 

So that's your next mod effort then, HB ?

Re: Turtlers and Rushers?
 

How did you guess?

Re: Turtlers and Rushers?
 

Ewoks as indies for dom 3000... make it so