End Game Summons
 

A lot of attention has been given to equalize end games summons.

But I would like to suggest that currently the game really requires SC's to win in endgames. Aka that the balance has gone to far in favor of SC's. There should be alternate strategies to victory.

How about *also* having each unit have advanced units. Units that would be too expensive to build under normal circumstances - but which might do well in the end game.

Perhaps golems, iron dragons, or panzers for ulm.

If the costs were high enough they would be an endgame purchase. Alternately you could just have them unlock.. turn 20, turn 40 etc.

It would also be interesting if you could research improvements for each race.
For example, Explosive Crossblows for EA Marignon. Or improved Attack strength for Agartha.

Or improved Dominion for man.

Re: End Game Summons
 

Well personally, I think the best way to handle that mechanic, is through national spells.

This way you tie them to research, powerful "possibly capital only" mages, and gem production, rather than just money. But also, you would see that things like these "Explosive Crossbows" would in fact be a spell that is similar to flaming arrows, but better in some way. In some cases it may even just be a battlefield spell that costs gems for everyone else, but without the gem cost for that particular nation.

But yes, 2 things it would be good to have fill out the late game:

1- Spells that help minimize the weaknesses of the nation, or further enhance their strengths to counter increasing defenses.

2- High level summons that rather than generating one incredibly powerful commander, are VERY cost/gem effective at creating multiple mid level or elite troops of a thematically sound nature.

2.5- I do like SCs though, so I also think it would be nice to have more variety in the singularly powerful late game summons. Though, if point -2- were used to make the lesser used paths more viable in late game, that would suffice very well to accomplish the same goal - more options for victory.

<3

Re: End Game Summons
 

Units :

Recruitable powerful units will be used for rush even if they are reasonably expensive (or if they are extremely expensive won't be used, as not cost effective in late game compared to mages).

More, or more cost effective really good troops summons, are an option. But if these troops aren't mindless or with an insane MR their existence would make astral (enslave spells) even more interesting.


Upgrades :

It's very unlikely to see a change of this magnitude added in a patch.

An upgrade system is doable with dynamic modding but would require a lot of work for the host/modder, and players downloading the mod each time an unit progress.

Re: End Game Summons
 

How about recruitables with an associated research requirement?

Re: End Game Summons
 

There is a medium between not used and not as cost effective as mages.

For example: For ulm War Machines: Chariots with 100 hp that cost 600 gold and 60 resources each.

For Agartha: Terra Cotta Regiment:
Each regiment comes with 45 soldier. Each soldier has 45 hp, prot 20, sacred.

Cost 1200 and 200 resources.

Play with the numbers. Sure mages are cheaper - but mages can fall victim due to lower hp.

Re: End Game Summons
 

Chariots of 600 gold?

In what way would they be different from the size 6 gath chariot that is much cheaper?

Re: End Game Summons
 

I think he's just saying it would behave like a chariot, being a gigantic trampling unit. But it would be different from the Gath chariot in that it has 100hp, as he said. Also, I'd imagine it's this hulking metal monstrosity that is far better armored than any other chariot, in fact it's sort of a Blacksteel War Chariot, which could be actually powered by 2 mammoths completely ensconced in the steel body of the Machine. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif

The Terra Cotta soldiers sound a little excessively powerful, especially as sacreds. But that sort of thing is great. I just really think that the system of forcing it to be managed as a summons is the way to go with it. Even at 1200g and 200 resources, you would want to buy that ASAP. Why? Because you could take 3 indy (or low-mid PD) provinces at a time without a single loss, and if your neighbor had 45 sacreds with 20 prot and 45hp, and you didn't? They would slaughter you to the last man with no question of victory.

Re: End Game Summons
 

I think it could be interesting to have ultra powerful 300+ resource units. You could only recruit 1 per turn per castle (or 0 for some castles), it would increase the value of the production scale (you might be able to pump out 2 a turn with 3 production?), and you might actually consider building fortress outside of swamps.

Re: End Game Summons
 

Further ideas:

Production:

Have units that are only unlocked with certain Production settings. Aka: +3 Prod scale would unlock the war Chariot, for Ulm

+2 Prod Scale would unlock BlackPlate Rangers - a unit with a strat move of two.

+1 might unlock a mantlet, which would add +50 to siegecraft....

Re: End Game Summons
 

I'd modify this a bit though. I think there needs to be more spells in general at late levels of research with more path diversity (astral and death clearly have more options, while air and fire...not so much), especially 1 to 3 path battlefield magic. Even if existing spells just scaled more, like Evoc 9 let you shoot like 30 fire darts or Const 9 has Legions of Steel for every unit under the mages command or Alt 9 for AOE blindness, or whatever.

It would help to keep even standard armies and mages more relevant if they had options to be competitive.

Re: End Game Summons
 

As fun as SCs are, there are so many different tactics and takes on late-game units that don't involve a bigger guy with a bigger stick, or not *just* that, and I'd really like to encourage that way of thinking, because sadly our units only go up to size 6. The SCs we have, I personally think-first of all-should be immortal, healing, etc. much more often, so that they don't go gimpy from afflictions, and secondly-should belong in the middle game, more than the endgame, with more suble, refined units/strategies coming into play that the SCs can either become incorporated into, or defeated by. The advantage of this is that those neat SCs get to stay around longer, without getting so bloated and lame that they become ridiculous.

Re: End Game Summons
 

You have a vivid imagination. I can see them in my mind now. Kind of like a tank powered by Mammoths. With openings in the armor for the Mammoths to see forward, and arrow slots in the chariot for firing.

Re: End Game Summons
 

SCs aren't particularly unbalanced in terms of power, there are other distinct reasons for them being so dominant late game:

1. No upkeep. The upkeep on a viable late game army is significant, especially on top of paying for researchers. This limits nations to a small number of them at a time, whereas SCs accumulate for free until they are killed.

2. Mobility. Pretty simple. Flight and teleport/cloud trapeze are pretty much SC staples, armies are generally stuck plodding along one province at a time.

3. Non-divisibility. Aside from a couple of really bad afflictions SCs don't suffer from attrition like armies can. They generally either win or die, with an occasional retreat thrown in for flavor. Armies can get picked apart, especially with spells like rain of stones and the like.

4. Lack of logistics/not having to deal with the poop-for-brains AI gem use. Nothing beat watching my mages burn 20 gems in each of two battles in which the opposing "army" of a few leaders was killed or routed by soul slays before they even got to move. Having to supply an army is a pain even when they're not doing stupid stuff like that. SCs are pretty much fire and forget...soul vortex is usually the only buff that occasionally takes a gem for me, and that's not nearly so annoying to deal with.

In a toe-to-toe fight a well-designed army with mage support should have little trouble taking down a few SCs, they're just more expensive to maintain and harder to utilize...I don't think any nerfing really needs to be done to SCs, they're actually pretty fragile to a lot of reasonable counter strategies as it is. Mind hunt/magic duel being the most common.

Re: End Game Summons
 

Thats exactly what I envisioned, Jim. Plus other things, I'm far to lazy to write.

Re: End Game Summons
 

Arrow slits! I thought of that, Ulmish Crossbows could be devastating, but Dom doesn't allow ranged combat in the same turn as trampling, so it would be silly. Perhaps a ballista that you could set to fire first if you knew there were large opponents in the enemy army. Also nice would be large spikes around the base of the Machine, but as far as I know there is also no way to add bonus damage to trampling, so I opted for a sleek look. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif Perhaps the spikes could be worked in like some sort of a damage shield? Or we could say they kept a pot of boiling oil inside the cabin of the thing, and could spit it out of aimable tubes on the sides, so just have it behave like a 10dam Fire Shield maybe?

Re: End Game Summons
 

Micah,

+1, insightful. SCs are all about mobility and logistics. They're pretty easy to kill *IF* you can hit them with a mage-supported army, but except for maybe Caelum no army has the mobility of an SC.

Hmm, that makes me wonder if I should try Caelum next.

-Max

Re: End Game Summons
 

JimMorrison: I'd just fake the trampling with a weapon that does more damage to smaller units-I mean, you're talking about a tank, if it crashes into even a big unit, they're probably atleast going to bang a knee or something!

I wouldn't do boiling oil though, because you're running on mammoth-power, and inside the big hot metal box, they're going to eventually turn into mammoth stew.

Or more likely, just get very very pissed off, which won't be pleasant for any involved parties.

Re: End Game Summons
 

The summon of Oponn I described in the malazan mod thread is nice too.. and sort of different

Re: End Game Summons
 

Well, that couuuuld work. Would have to give it a bunch of attacks though, to simulate it really rolling through a line. Otherwise it would become a gigantic, cool looking, joke as it killed 1-2 men per round. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif

As far as the oil goes, imagine that inside of the steel shell, is basically just a very large chariot, so the mammoths in front, and the crew is in back. The crew could have an open top for venting the oil fire.

But to me, the details are less important than the point that it is a late game super weapon, and I felt because of that, one thing that would help set it apart from other chariots/tramplers, is a nice damage shield. Could give it the Poison Barbs effect, but Ulm isn't really poisony, so then still have to get creative with some nonsense about a toxic byproduct of Blacksteel forging, that they apply to the spikes. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif

Re: End Game Summons
 

You could pick an AoE weapon.

BTW, Ophanim are size 5 tramplers with a Fire Shield and Awe. <3 <3

-Max

Re: End Game Summons
 

Hmmmm, can a weapon be given an AOE greater than 1? Because that could be just beautiful. Preferable to the trampling IMO.

Re: End Game Summons
 

If I recall correctly, I've seen weapons with area up to 15.

Re: End Game Summons
 

Stone Sword has AoE 5 I think. Bear in mind that if the AoE is > 1 it may very well hit the wielder.

-Max

Re: End Game Summons
 

Well, I think that's thematic. It has a chance of taking damage any time it rams its massive bulk into a throng of enemy soldiers. The enormous weight and inertia just sometimes causes a support to start buckling or something. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif Of course, if the AOE could be set as physical damage, and this Machine had a very high prot value, it would be unlikely to get very badly hurt by this.