FreshMeat - EA Newbie - (RUNNING)
 

Game Name: FreshMeat
Server: LLamaServer
Players: 8 to 12, newbies
Map: Cradle (or Paraganos)

Settings --
Indies: 7
Special Sites: 50
Randoms: Common
Graphs: Enabled
HoF: 15
Research: Standard
Victory: VP (NON-Cumulative)=7 points (need to capture 6 capitals and hold them, which is half the nations+1 if we get full game)
Renaming: On


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PLAYER LIST--

Abysia: effeDom
Sauromatia: Executor
Pangaea: Ubercat
Yomi: Darkstone
Tir'Na Nog: Bwaha
T'ien Ch'i: majuva68
Arcoscephale: Piggles
Fomoria: Calahan
Niefelheim: meister_miagi
Helheim: Ossa
Lanka: anticipatient
Marverni: GrudgeBringer

players: 12
GAME CLOSED, UPLOAD PRETENDERS (when game is hosted)
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Rules (I hoped I'd not have to add any but I've already gotten some PMs about some stuff we should probably state at the beginning, so, here goes...)
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1) No known exploiting of battle spells. I dont even know the exploits but I've heard of Mists and Fog something or other used in some combo with the mage retreating and then the battle never ends so defender always wins, or something along those lines. Conclusion? You cannot retreat a mage casting any battle enchantment. Period.

2) Anyone staling will be given notice after 1 turn, I think this is automatic by the llamaserver anyway. Staling after 2 turns, a sub will be sought. If no sub by 4 turns, your nation goes to AI. There will be no waiting for anyone, turns will go forward every 24h. This is a newbie game and losing one turn isnt the end of the world. Keep this in mind when fighting a war as well, please, and if you know you are fighting a grueling 1v1 on someone, and they are stale, give them room to breath. Just play nice. Newbie game.

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*I changed magic sites down to 50 from 55.

Discuss changes and give reasons why if you propose any change.

This game is for newbies. No mods. Keeping it simple. First time I've hosted, and, for that matter, my first MP as well.
Hopefully will work without flaw but, please be patient should that not happen http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: FreshMeat - 12 Max - EA Newbie - (PLAYERS JOIN
 

Good stuff, yep, I'm very happy to host. Let me know when you have enough players and I will set the game up to accept pretenders.

Re: FreshMeat - 12 Max - EA Newbie - (PLAYERS JOIN
 

I'm in as Sauromatia.

Re: FreshMeat - 12 Max - EA Newbie - (PLAYERS JOIN
 

I'll take Pangaea, if it's ok.

Some of you may recall that I played a number of MP games last year and so might not consider me a newbie. I think that this game is so diverse that skill and ability vary widely based on how familiar you are with the faction you're playing. I consider myself a newbie equivalent because I'm out of practice and have never mastered the Pangaeans. I played 1-2 games with them but didn't do very well.

Now, what I really want to play is Mictlan, but I have a solid Mictlan build and enough of a handle on them that it would be patently unfair to use them in this game. I want to try out some things with the moosemen, though, and think I'm a reasonable fit here, as long as no one objects.

In fact just to make it easier, if anyone doesn't want me to take part, maybe you could PM effeDom. That way it's all anonymous. Thank you for your consideration. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: FreshMeat - 12 Max - EA Newbie - (PLAYERS JOIN
 

I'll play as Lanka.

Re: FreshMeat - 12 Max - EA Newbie - (PLAYERS JOIN
 

I'd like Yomi please.

I'm in a boat similar to Ubercat. I'm in my first two MP games right now, but I've never played Yomi in SP or MP.

Re: FreshMeat - 12 Max - EA Newbie - (PLAYERS JOINING)
 

hi i would like the tir na nog very much if i may http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif Bwaha. ps.worthy hereos???

Re: FreshMeat - 12 Max - EA Newbie - (PLAYERS JOINING)
 

I'll play as T'ien Ch'i

Re: FreshMeat - 12 Max - EA Newbie - (PLAYERS JOINING)
 

K, you are not a newbie!

Re: FreshMeat - 12 Max - EA Newbie - (PLAYERS JOINING)
 

if no worthy hero's, how do i shut it off? Bwaha

Re: FreshMeat - 12 Max - EA Newbie - (PLAYERS JOIN
 

Well, I haven't played an MP game in around a year. It's almost like being a newbie!

To be serious, I've been waiting two weeks for a game to come up that didn't have weird requirements.

Re: FreshMeat - 12 Max - EA Newbie - (PLAYERS JOIN
 

Ooh, I want in, I'll take Arcoscephale.

Re: FreshMeat - 12 Max - EA Newbie - (PLAYERS JOIN
 

I've been wanting to give Mictlan a try... with the additional caveat that I'd really prefer playing on a medium random map and default settings, like 5 for indy strength. Is there any reason why this is the chosen map? Also, is there any reason why you have pushed indy strength to 7? That can throw a lot of things out of balance! Improved indy strength is fun for SP but it can really hurt MP, in my opinion.

And the same goes for the 55 site frequency... this places a lot of emphasis on magic, so bless nations and nations with powerful troops, or even nations without a lot of magic diversity will be thrown very much out of whack. Failing changing things to default, could we at least have your reasons for doing so? It doesn't look good in the Hall of Honor when you have to put asterisks next to your win!

Re: FreshMeat - 12 Max - EA Newbie - (PLAYERS JOIN
 

I'd like to join as Fomoria please. Happy with most of the settings suggested, although I've never played a game with sites as high as 55, so no idea what effect that will have on the game over the longhaul.

Re: FreshMeat - 12 Max - EA Newbie - (PLAYERS JOIN
 

I've gotta say K, I think if you play in this you will thrash them all easily. After all you are well known as a competent MP player.

If you'd like a new MP game though, I can easily set one up. Any preferences? Seriously, I will always set a game up for someone if they want one. Even if you're not willing to admin, we should always be able to find someone to admin, being as it's a small job.

Re: FreshMeat - 12 Max - EA Newbie - (PLAYERS JOIN
 

I'd like to play as Niefelheim! Settings are fine by me.

Re: FreshMeat - 12 Max - EA Newbie - (PLAYERS JOIN
 

im updating thread now for new players.

K, i'm leaving you out for now, until your little convo with llama is resolved ok? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif
if you dont end up setting up another game, i dont have any problem with you playing here, but, then again, this game wont go into any hall of fame or rankings or whatever there is and it certainly wont be fun for a veteran to play here...it'll be like playing against normal or difficult SP AI probably, at the most, hehehe....(well, i still have problem beating AI on difficult, especially with some nations).

Re: FreshMeat - 12 Max - EA Newbie - (PLAYERS JOIN
 

hi Renojustin http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif
a few answers...
first of all, i just personally thought it'd be a bit slower and more challenging to learn better with indy at 7. i play SP with indy at 7 or 8 usually, from what i see it just makes you chose carefully which provinces you expand to, sometimes forcing you also to not expand one turn because you have to go back a province to attack another side, having come up against an elephant wall or heavy cavalry or something. also considering the map is big for only 12 players if we fill it up (i usually play SP with all nations on cradle), i think its better with higher indy making it not so easy to just wipe out every single indy prov.
the difference is small though. maybe im even screwing myself by this because i think i will start with a sleeping or dormant pretender, while SC pretenders can probably do pretty good just wiping through even at 7.

the reason for a pre-packaged map, as well as not having any mods, is for simplicity. this is a newbie game. i dont want to even have to expect anyone to know how to install a mod or map, much less distribute one. next game i probably will. for now i just want to play an MP, i havent done one yet so am looking for similar players who just want to learn a new nation, learn MP, or, well, in general...learn something.

secondly, this game wont go into hall of fame. its a newbie game, once again.

magic sites at 55. i changed it down to 50. personally, I see a very rare difference, and i tend to play SP with over 60, usually 70. then again I guess I do tend to have pretty good gem income with lots of extra gems but then again, i dont know how to use them up either hehe http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif
so 50 will be fine, make gems more rare, though personally i like having lots of magic flying around http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

renojustin: all this being said i dont konw if you fit so well in this game? let me know, but it will be boring for you if youre at the advanced stage to be querying this kind of stuff, i think. i dunno. you have to decide. this wont be a high end "discuss every turn" etc type of game, its just going to be a fun romp through an MP on a standard map. learn a new nation, learn how to play against other players, etc.
and have fun http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: FreshMeat - 12 Max - EA Newbie - (PLAYERS JOIN
 

It sounds fun, but sort of randomly tweaking the settings more toward your SP experience has completely unforseen results, for most anyway. Which means that people who are a little more advanced will see things coming that others won't, and I really don't like to have an advantage. But I guess I can live with it, lol. Anyway it seems like you've put at least a bit o' thought into it.

Be advised that that map is ENORMOUS for twelve players, as well. Really the simpler thing would be to go for the medium random, but it's your show, your call!

And every completed MP game goes toward the Hall of Honors. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

Looking forward to the game! I've only had one SP game with Mictlan, but I did like them. I'm dreading the micromanagement with a large map like this, though. Turns are going to be taking hours by the third year.

Re: FreshMeat - 12 Max - EA Newbie - (PLAYERS JOIN
 

Random maps tend to be a crapshoot. I've seen some awesome starting positions vs. some really crappy ones on random maps. The chosen map is probably one of the best balanced in the game. If it's too big, perhaps the game could be upped to 13-14 players.

Re: FreshMeat - 12 Max - EA Newbie - (PLAYERS JOIN
 

Sign me up as Helheim plz!

Re: FreshMeat - 12 Max - EA Newbie - (PLAYERS JOIN
 

Just one question is it still without no mods or are we going with Worthy Heroes, like Bwaha asked, couse I have some really good heroes I count on?

Re: FreshMeat - 12 Max - EA Newbie - (PLAYERS JOIN
 

reno: ya i agree, i think the map is too big, but it is reccommended for around 10 to 12 players, cant remember exact reccommendation but something like that.

id rather go random but random maps tend to suck at connecting neighbors, and the barriers are all too few, typically. plus the terrain tends to suck hehe http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

i have a few random maps that ive generated and edited myself to be all-around more fair but i opt not to use these as i dont want to get into any nonsense of accusations of unfairness etc. i was thinking of using one of the smaller maps, namely paraganos. i think ill swap it to that if the concensus is that we need a smaller map. its a nice looking map though i havent played on it before, seems to be well made and balanced.

5% more magic sites thing i really dont think will make ANY difference (well, it will, supposedly, add 5% more sites http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif....5% more sites if the average is 2 sites per province (i think thats probably the rough estimate, no?) means out of 100 provinces=200 sites=10 more sites on 100 provinces.
thats nothing.

mods: i dont know why ppl keep asking....if mods arent listed in the stats thread up top, then obviously they arent gonna be used, i would assume http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif
so no....no mods. once again. keeping it simple.

lets have fun everyone http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: FreshMeat - 12 Max - EA Newbie - (PLAYERS JOIN
 

ok, lets rock http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif Bwaha

Re: FreshMeat - 12 Max - EA Newbie - (PLAYERS JOIN
 

waiting for llama to setup game then we can upload pretenders http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif))

maybe we can start monday, or perhaps even, if everyone submits a turn, have turn 2 by monday. well first things first http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

anything else need to be discussed before game settings are done, post now http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: FreshMeat - 12 Max - EA Newbie - (PLAYERS JOIN
 

I am as new as new can be...I wanted Sauromantia but it is already taken.

I will take Marverni as I have read Baal'z guide and its the only other tribe I have played SP.

Nevr have played MP and will probably be cannon fodder but I need to get my feet wet somewhere.

I have never played MP in thi sgame but am used to LONG games as I plaed AACW and MOO2 Pbem.

I do have One problem...I am somewhat computer challenged and am trying to figure out how to send my Pretender to the Host.

My GF is a whiz so any help and I will be ok.

I will go and read llamabeast's rules and hope you have need for a "The charge of the Dumb Brigade" in your game.

Thanks!!!! Grudgebringer

Re: FreshMeat - 12 Max - EA Newbie - (PLAYERS JOIN
 

Parganos seems fine.

Smaller maps are more fun, since it means less micro later on.

Re: FreshMeat - 12 Max - EA Newbie - (PLAYERS JOIN
 

I'm in http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif give me 5 minutes to pick a side http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: FreshMeat - 12 Max - EA Newbie - (PLAYERS JOIN
 

I would ilke Lanka please http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: FreshMeat - 12 Max - EA Newbie - (PLAYERS JOIN
 

im adding you both, game is at 13 players, and closing it up, hows that for anyone else? hope no qualms with 1 extra http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

ive sent a request to llama to host the game. once he does ill see what i have to do as setup goes, and then you can all go to www.llamaserver.net and click on the FreshMeat game and check it, read the llamaserver FAQ to see how to send in your pretenders and all that, its here on the forum.

actually, heres the link, for convenience http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif
http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/thr...part=&vc=1

final issue is that the map still needs to be decided on...
i just looked more closely at parganos and i have one issue with it...the entire eastern plain area bordered by those mountain chains to the north and forest to south is wastes, i think i counted 11 provinces all next toeachother, all wastes....
if anyone lands there, they are going to automatically die i think....
i have 2 solutions to that unless i am wrong about the "landing in wastes and youre screwed" concept.
1) i have a good random map i use in SP (well, have started 2 games with it that havent yet finished hehe), its 200 provinces even, with small amount of water mostly land and well placed borders with mountains. lots of good chokepoints, ample farmland (i turned all swamps into farmland instead of swamps), and a good assortment all over the map of "extra sites" provinces and "large" provinces.
ive put it up as an attachment to the first post for whomever wants to look at it.

2) we just use cradle as previously planned, which i think is easier, though it will give us roughly 17 provinces per player with 13 players (the 200 prov random map gives us 15.x something per player, so its a medium map).

i dont care either way id rather that we get 6 or 7 people to look at the random map, and post their vote real quick and make the decision that way.

EDIT x2: ok i cant see where to add an attachment so, that idea is scrapped until someone can tell me http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif .... or we just play on cradle....(unless that parganos really isnt a problem with the wastes area)

Re: FreshMeat - 12 Max - EA Newbie - (PLAYERS JOIN
 

I'm up for Cradle now, or whatever the game organizer decides. I have had one or two small problems with neighbor connectivity before, but I've always liked the pure randomness of capital placement in random maps, just seemed to make it a lot spicier. But I liked your point on the openness of random maps, too. As long as it's not Glory of Gods; man that map is just pure crap! No mobility whatsoever. Cradle looks pretty fun to me.

50 sounds good for magic sites, too. Really it's the 7 indy strength that concerns me the most. That's a 40% increase from default, and can change a lot of things.

Other than that, I have no concerns. Er, llamaserver is PBEM isn't it? We could possibly get Gandalf Parker to host a network game on his server; it's sooo much easier and friendlier...

Re: FreshMeat - 12 Max - EA Newbie - (PLAYERS JOIN
 

who is gandalf parker and where is his server?
though, for this game, i will wait for llama because he already graciously offered to host us and i want to try on his server anyway.

next game on gandalf's http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif i read somewhere here though that he was gone or something?

i havent found any info on any other servers aside from the goon gaming tool (which hosts both pbem and network games...actually no i think it doesnt host it just lists them) and llamaserver.

Re: FreshMeat - 12 Max - EA Newbie - (PLAYERS JOIN
 

One of his servers went down, the other one is just fine. Man, it's really a huge convinience to play on network rather than PBEM!

You don't need to send emails or files or what-have-you, just log in and play your turn. For those who have to pay by the minute, you can just log in and it will download the turn, at which point you can disconnect and play your turn. When you connect to the network again, it will upload your turn into the game. Easy as frickin pie! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: FreshMeat - 12 Max - EA Newbie - (PLAYERS JOIN
 

Okay, game set up, you can now send in pretenders. If you've not played on the LlamaServer before, check my FAQ (link in my sig) for how to send in your pretender.

Re: FreshMeat - 12 Max - EA Newbie - (PLAYERS JOIN
 

Sigh. It's not too late to change to network...

Re: FreshMeat - 12 Max - EA Newbie - (PLAYERS JOIN
 

If you use "Quick Reply" at the bottom of the page, you can hit the "Preview Reply" button and you will see a preview of you text and a button called "Browse". Click it to find your file. Make sure you have zipped it first unless you are just uploading text or browser friendly images.

Once the file is selected, click "Ok Submit" and it will upload the file and show up as an attachment at the top of your post.

Hope that helps. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: FreshMeat - 12 Max - EA Newbie - (PLAYERS JOIN
 

Do we really want to PBEM if these attachments are giving people trouble effe? We'll have to do this every single turn of the game. Kind of a pain.

Re: FreshMeat - 12 Max - EA Newbie - (PLAYERS JOIN
 

Unless I completely misunderstood, he was trying to figure out how to attach a random map he had for the players to check out. In other words, an attachment to his post on the forums and not anything to do with email or LlamaServer.

Re: FreshMeat - 12 Max - EA Newbie - (PLAYERS JOIN
 

Is it just me, or do you not have to put an attachment in your emails to send in your turn? Heh, really though, just trying to do my best to help the players out here, I guess I've said my piece at this point!

Re: FreshMeat - 12 Max - EA Newbie - (PLAYERS JOIN
 

Yes. You do have to use attachments in email to send and receive your turns. (It's really not that much trouble.)
LlamaServer FAQ

Re: FreshMeat - 12 Max - EA Newbie - (PLAYERS JOIN
 

I was surprised to find that pbem is actually really enjoyable!! This will be my second one.

Re: FreshMeat - 12 Max - EA Newbie - (PLAYERS JOIN
 

PBEM is much better, and safer, the server crashed in a game I was playing,
( I actually had a shot of winning ), they say that happens rarely, but I'm not very optimistic now.

Re: FreshMeat - 12 Max - EA Newbie - (PLAYERS JOIN
 

I actually prefer the llamaserver to network hosted games.

Re: FreshMeat - 12 Max - EA Newbie - (PLAYERS JOIN
 

Safer, only if the host does not keep a backup of the game. Better? Not by a long shot. Explain how you can possibly justify that when in a network game, you are always a click away from downloading or uploading your turn.

Re: FreshMeat - 12 Max - EA Newbie - (PLAYERS JOIN
 

Everything on the llamaserver is saved (backed up).

Renojustin, if you're really unhappy with PBEM, I don't think anyone will hold you to staying in this game, but I think it being PBEM was pretty clear from the first post?

(I hope that didn't come off as sounding mean or whatnot, that's not how I meant it).

Re: FreshMeat - 12 Max - EA Newbie - (PLAYERS JOIN
 

When did I say anything about the state of Llamaserver's backup status?

It would be terrific if someone would intelligently debate the relative merits of the question at hand rather than using straw men arguments or telling people that they're welcome to leave instead. I'm aware that I'm able to leave, thanks for the friendly reminder. And no, the game wasn't set to be PBEM from the first post. Neither am I saying that the game MUST be Network.

What I don't see is how anyone could consider PBEM games to be anywhere near as convinient as a backed-up Network game based on the actual realities of the two systems. If you want to refute the fact of the matter, please do it with actual logic instead of unsupported opinions or thinly veiled hostility.

The truth is that a network game does exactly the same thing that a PBEM games does, except that it is vastly easier to upload and submit turns. And nobody can possibly deny that. So I'm not really sure where you guys get your opinions and aggression from, but to me it just sounds like argument for the sake of being contrary. I'm only trying to simplify the game, which some of us may be playing for a long time. I could sure use the extra hour or two in my life that I'd gain from NOT having to deal with PBEM over 100 turns.

Re: FreshMeat - 12 Max - EA Newbie - (PLAYERS JOIN
 

There have always been people on the forum who would only play network games, and others who would only play PBEM, and most people don't mind too much. There are advantages to both setups.

Here are some advantages to PBEM:
- It's easier to see the game status from the website than by logging into the game, particularly if (a) you're at work, or (b) you've already half-completed your turn, so you can't connect to the server without your turn being uploaded and there being some danger of hosting occurring using your incomplete turn.
- It's easier to play multiple games at once; you don't have to either keep on retyping the host address/port number, or setting up a load of different shortcuts to dominions each one specifying a different host and port number
- It's easier to keep backups of past turns, since they're kept in your e-mail by default. This can be pretty handy to look at old messages/events, or even just for fun to watch the history of your game
- It is possible for someone other than the owner of the computer to easily admin a game; Dominions itself is rather hard to control smoothly from elsewhere while it's running, while the LlamaServer has the Admin Options interface. I think this is actually fairly key.
- In case of a glitch, e.g. temporary loss of internet access, a PBEM server is much less badly affected than a network server and doesn't need human attention to resuscitate

These are all reasonably minor issues of course, but then again so is the time taken to use PBEM. If you are using a decent mail program (e.g. Thunderbird, or presumably Outlook Express though i haven't used that for some years) it's a matter of moments. I would say when I get a turn e-mail, I will have the game open in literally 5 seconds (since Thunderbird remembers which folder you save your attachments to, and I don't save that many apart from dom3 files).

If you use webmail on the other hand, I can imagine it would be a bit more annoying.

Re: FreshMeat - 12 Max - EA Newbie - (PLAYERS JOIN
 

Thank you Llamabeast!

Although I do have to say that points 1 through 3 are a bit of malarky there, since

1) in the two network games that I've played, both had an independent internet page dedicated to turn status

2) typing in the host address and port number is easier than sending attachments and/or moving files around into save folders with webmail, and

3) all it takes is the desire to save a turn and it's as easy as point and click.

Points 4 and 5 are exactly what I was looking for, however. Thank you for taking the time to explain the advantages of PBEM to us.

Re: FreshMeat - 12 Max - EA Newbie - (PLAYERS JOIN
 

Cool, glad that was helpful.

2) and 3) I guess are very much subjective, in particular I never could be bothered to save my old turns before so I find that helpful, but you're right that it's a fairly trivial task. As for 1) - good point, I had forgotten how far the network games have come since I last played one and the status pages and notification e-mails they have now are very cool.

Incidentally if anyone is using an e-mail account they have to check via a website, I highly recommend seeing if you can get Thunderbird or some other e-mail program set up, they make everything vastly easier.

Re: FreshMeat - 12 Max - EA Newbie - (PLAYERS JOIN
 

I don't either have anything against network games, only typing in the host address and port number, that really bothers me becouse I have a habit of always checking the status, but I do prefer PBEM becouse It's easier for me not having to check both my mail and then network and like Ilama said it takes literally 5 seconds to attach the file,
But I'm good with either so whatever you decide is fine by me!

And I think it's easier if you need a sub for a few days you just forward the turn, and you can see what the sub did, or didn't do...