Making a PC game / starting a game company?
 

Just curious about insights into this. Reason I ask is I see a lot of people on the boards who work as programmers as well as modders and other forms of IT gurus. A lot of people here are clearly passionate about gaming (you almost have to be to overcome the steep learning curve of Dom 3). Then considering the fact that (AFAIK) Dom 3 is the product of 2 people with other jobs makes me wonder why more people have not tried to create a game. Seems most people have a vision of “the perfect game” but not many ever bother to try to make it. As I have no background in programming, I can only imagine how difficult it must be to actually execute on such a vision but curious if any folks here have ever contemplated it (obviously the Ilwinter guys have but any others?). After all, in the US more money is now spent on video games than movies...

Happy Monday!

Re: Making a PC game / starting a game company?
 

Not really, even though I'm a programmer by trade. Good game design is way harder than program design, and a lot of the best games don't run on computers at all, or didn't at first. (Anything from Monopoly to Hotels to Axis and Allies to Scrabble.) I don't necessarily feel that knowing how to make a computer obey me makes me qualified to work on games at all.

-Max

Re: Making a PC game / starting a game company?
 

I'm the opposite, I've got a lot of years experience with many different aspects of designing games, but am a very poor programmer, so my biggest problem with creating computer games is finding someone who will do what I want them to, committedly, without having to pay them large amounts of money for it.

Re: Making a PC game / starting a game company?
 

My background is more in managing programmers and Ive been involved with PC game designers since the birth of PCs.
"Managing programmers has been compared to herding cats. They dont tend to move together. Your best bet is to stand behind them, make lots of noise, and hope that one of them ends up where you wanted them to go."

However, I will pitch this.
ANY programmer who has a game in working alpha mode can easily move toward getting help for more development and finally distribution. There are many ways. SourceForge for open source. CafePress for self distribution. And I highly recommend Shrapnel for first game independent developers. I would avoid the really large shelfware companies until your 3rd major release (or sequel) and will gladly discuss the whys and hows with anyone who is interested.

And MAJORLY I would warn anyone against being BOTH a new developer AND starting their own game company.

InMYHumbleOpinion of course.

Re: Making a PC game / starting a game company?
 

I've designed about a dozen games, and gotten 3 of them programmed with a friend of mine. The hardest thing for us is finding an artist. We have been through at least 20 artists/graphic designers, and not a single one of them had a scrap of discipline. They'll do one 3d model and then quit, or a handful of pictures and then you'll never hear from them again. No amount of money seems to overcome laziness/lack of motivation in this regard.

I guess it could be that way with a programmer too, so perhaps I'm blessed in not having to go it alone. But it's a hard road, because you basically have to work 80 hours a week instead 40 for some distant and by no means certain goal of low to moderate success. It has its moments though.

Re: Making a PC game / starting a game company?
 

I am working on a game http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif. We are very close to completion and it is a pretty exciting project. Here is a link:

http://wildfiregames.com/0ad/

At the moment we cannot accept novice programmers because we are too close to completion to train someone. But we are looking for history articles from community members that are relevant to the time period.

We are also in need of 3D animators, texture artists, and sound effect specialists. We can take novice skill level for these jobs because we have enough veterans to advise, and these jobs normally do not affect milestones.

Drop by and check it out http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif.

Re: Making a PC game / starting a game company?
 

Small world Foodstamp!

It has been quite a while since I looked at 0ad. I used to frequent aiscripters and noted the 0ad forum there. It looked as though the project was dying at that time so I kinda lost track of it. Quite to the contrary, it appears to be progressing nicely.

Re: Making a PC game / starting a game company?
 

Goodstuff http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

As with any spare time project, there are ups and downs of activity. Staff come and go, but as long as those things are just obstacles to be overcome, and not roadblocks that completely stop progress, eventually the game gets released http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif.

It is crazy fun to play and insanely modder friendly, I can't wait to see what the community does with it http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif.

Re: Making a PC game / starting a game company?
 

Foodstamp:

Quite boring time of history http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Making a PC game / starting a game company?
 

Well 0 A.D. is not actually a "real" time in history, but I think the time period represented, 500 years B.C. to 500 A.D. are actually some of the most exciting times in history http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: Making a PC game / starting a game company?
 

Not my favourite at least http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif I have some short speech why most games fail, but I don't feel like writing it now.

Re: Making a PC game / starting a game company?
 

That looks extremely cool, looking forward to seeing it in action!

Re: Making a PC game / starting a game company?
 

Dominions would make a fun boardgame.

Re: Making a PC game / starting a game company?
 

Many people try open-source games and have great and really nice plans. But there come obstacles. They are divided into 2 groups:

1. Money

You NEED money. You need at least some of them. There is no way to finish even small game without investing some $. Of course assuming you want it released. You need to spend them for domains, hosting, creating company, doing all registrations, paying for artists [as you may get a programmer that will do it for free or % of profits, don't count on artis in that matter, they are also really lazy]. Most projects go down because people cannot scale project to what they can afford. If you want to start a 3D MMORPG from scratch without winning lottery first, you are really wasting your time. I have been in one open-source project like that http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

2. Management

Even smallest project requires a project leader that can do the job. And that is not an easy task. And it becomes almost impossible task when you do not pay your people, there is almost no way to really motivate them or get them to work on schedule. You need here skills that you won't learn anyway. Not on some useless Management degree on university [you can be Mc Donald's manager after that in best case]. You need to know about wikis, technical documentation, copygight issues, business law, etc etc. Most game projects are led by people that think that making game will be as fun as playing them. But there is not much fun in it, at least not until things are working, which is really the end.

Skills are not a problem - you can learn if you really want. Time too - you will need 10x more than any professionals and you won't be able to keep any schedules anyway. I made some mistakes already http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif Started with being lead world designer for 3d MMORPG - it was like 8 years ago or more and if it was finished it would be 10x bigger and more complicated than WoW [which did not exist]. We of course were naive enough to not spot problems like that http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif Later I tried few more things, but really learned that I should scale down my plans. Working on browser-based game now and even here I know I complicated my life way too much.

If you really want smth you should either start with minor role in medium-project [like browser-baser game] or make your own board-game/flash game [like tower defence]. And indie game makings looks more fun than all those corporations anyway. I bet no one here would like to work for EA http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Making a PC game / starting a game company?
 

This is very true. Just look at Djinnibad, and how the "artist" in there left the whole project without really saying anything, with no real explanations... That's just rude. I still wish he'd come back and finish what he started. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image.../firedevil.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif


Personally, I've been drawing for a short time, few years, and I haven't managed to force myself to produce anything in an orderly fashion. I can see the results, as well - or rather, NOT see them. I didn't get to study animation, as I wanted. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif I get to go to a "3d modelling/animation for games" school/course, but that's not something I want to do. Creating games for work is very different from playing games for fun.

Re: Making a PC game / starting a game company?
 

Agreed, Endo. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif But I hope that something will be done about that. Actually, I hope that I will decide on LA commanders and mages soon & so it will appear - at least, with borrowed-graphics version. It's even possible that I will adopt some of the said graphics so that they'll look authentic enough.. Dreams, dreams... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: Making a PC game / starting a game company?
 

I was thinking card game, like Magic.
But boardgame would be kewl. Particularly since its an area that Shrapnel has shown interest in expanding into.

Re: Making a PC game / starting a game company?
 

This community could use one of the various card engines out there like Workstation for example to make an online Dom3 card game no problem.

Re: Making a PC game / starting a game company?
 

Hehe, your site looks pretty pathetic with adblock turned on.
It might be because adblock sees "0ad" in all of the urls for all of the images and thinks "0ad! ad! IT MUST BE AN AD! DESTROY IT!".

And yeah, programming computer games is hard to do successfully. I know, I've programmed like 10 of them (and by 10, I mean 100 tenths of games http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif)

Re: Making a PC game / starting a game company?
 

Actually, Gandalf, my initial idea was for a boardgame "world" or "map" (worldmap?) with all the fun props boardgames have, but including in the process a set of expandable cards akin to Magic: The Gathering. So that you could have (purchase) sets of miniature figures for each Nation, and then modify their abilities, cast spell effects, have events, etc. with the cards. Maps, miniatures, and cards, would all be collectable, expandable, hopefully profitable http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Making a PC game / starting a game company?
 

I spent a few years programming a game ( http://clash.apolyton.net ). I quit working on it because I started working in a game company, and didn't resume after quitting that madmen firm.
From my experience, it's very easy to find anything between 1000 and 1 million would-be game designers. But you really only need one.
It's much harder to find programmers, although it's possible. Even them, they're not always reliable, as you can't do anything if one decides to quit, falls ill or whatever.
Artists are also problematic if you want a 3d game. Even going 2d you have some problems finding them, but 3d art requires a lot of work, and indeed you're unlikely to get a lot done easily.

After leaving the project for one year, considering there was noone else left, I decided it was not worth cgoing back to it (particularly considering Civ IV was excellent in the same genre). I started another project to check, but stopped short when I started needing 3d artists.
I think I'll stick to 2d art (the way Dom is done) if I decide to start something again.
Not that 3d brings much to anything in most of the cases.

Re: Making a PC game / starting a game company?
 

LDiCesare:

Heh, I remember that project. Project lead looked like he knows what he is doing and that he will get the job finished. I hoped they finish that game as Civ4 really sucks and next Civs will be probably even worse. Sad to see that project dead.

Re: Making a PC game / starting a game company?
 

I make games for a living and I'm also working on one of my own at the moment. IMO, the biggest hurdle is, as others have said, that making a game is not fun. Don't get me wrong, its rewarding - definitely so! But to make a game takes serious discipline and hard work. Both of those qualities are in short supply when you consider that all this must be done in someone's free time that they might otherwise be filling with wine, women, and song.

Re: Making a PC game / starting a game company?
 

I was a partner in the game Suzerainty, which won best PBM game .. years ago. Was partner in another venture called Western Kingdoms.

Lost my shirt on both. Had fun. YMMV.

Re: Making a PC game / starting a game company?
 

I could make a case arguing most of that. At least as absolutes.

As far as the money thing, thats part of what I do all day. I make internet recommendations. I often pitch how people can do "domains, hosting, creating company, doing all registrations, paying for artists" with no layout of funds. Often in the area of creating other businesses on the net but it applies to this one also. It takes abit longer and more hands-on of course but its possible if someone really wants it.

And, Ive even seen projects share the responsibilities of item 2 successfully. Not many, but some.

Re: Making a PC game / starting a game company?
 

I think I will stick to working on a board game. Sadly I cannot deny that I prefer the wine, women and song to more work in front of a computer in my free time.

Re: Making a PC game / starting a game company?
 

Somehow I don't think board games are the route to wine, women and song either.

Re: Making a PC game / starting a game company?
 

Well he didn't specify the quality of the wine, women or song he was after. In my experience just about anything can be a route to crap wine, cheap women and bad songs.

Re: Making a PC game / starting a game company?
 

I'd say I like bad women, cheap wine, and crap songs.