Titan pretenders
 

I'm wondering about how people use Titans, and when people use Titans. What are some good Titan builds? What roles, strategies, and situations are Titans used to fill?

I've never used these guys myself. I look at them, but always seem to find something better suited for what I want to do. Their qualities, as far as I can tell, are the following:

1. strong base dominion (typically 3)
2. two magic paths (typically with 1 pick in each, or 2 in one and 1 in the other.)
3. expensive additional magic picks
4. all slots
5. SC worthy chassis, but requires some buffing/equipment

and occasionally some special abilities like increased fortune or growth or something in the province in which the titan is positioned.

These guys seem like basic all-rounders to me, with a little capability in any area. Most nations have enough choices of Titans that there is one for them with the magic paths they want; they can add a touch of diversity, or a little extra power in already possessed paths. There high base dominion is good for bless strategies, or strategies where you need your scales everywhere. Ones with base 2 picks in a magic path can probably stretch for a strong bless in that path without completely breaking the bank. They have HP's enough and the slots and magic to be SC's; even if not right out of the box.

But for this wide base capability, I can't ever seem to find these guys worth the opportunity cost of picking them over another pretender. OK now given, my experience in the game is limited, and it is most likely I simply havn't used one of these guys when I could/should have, or just don't know how to use them. Can someone give me good examples of when a Titan pretender should be used; especially in light of the fact that they must be picked over another pretender (ie. the opportunity cost). Are there some basic/popular titan builds out there that a person should be familiar with?

Re: Titan pretenders
 

Some people call the Cyclops/Prince of Death/Moloch titans, but I would disagree. None of those are in the same thematic style as simply giant humans. Of the actual titans, I think there are few good uses outside of imprisoned blessers.

Re: Titan pretenders
 

I find that they fall into three categories:

1. Imprisoned Blessers. Sometimes the points just add up.

2. Weird Ability user. For exanple: The Mother of Rivers gets Water gems which can kickstart a Water economy for non-Water magic nation. I also like the god with a Forge bonus(which stacks with a Hammer), the gods with four arms(for holding more forge bonus items), and the Lady of Love(reduces unrest so makes a great turn 1 blood hunter).

3. Battle mage: When you have a natural Astral 10 caster, you really don't want a single arrow to kill them in battle.

Re: Titan pretenders
 

There are very few viable titan chassises. This is because most of the time they are too expensive with too little magic and are just poor cousins for some of the others. Thus they never get used.

The worst ones are the old Dom2 pretenders, the two Sons of the Sun, Lord of the Gates, Mother of Lions and of the new ones Lord of War.

The Celestial General loses out to the male titan in a bad way because 25 points more for the titan gets you 100% shockres and one more level of Air magic.

In general, most of the titan chassis pretenders are simply completely outclassed by a certain few builds or are too cost inefficient compared to monster type builds or even rainbow mages (if you're not going for a high dominion SC with awe).

Similarly, rainbow mages have practically only a couple of viable options, with the Great Enchantress being the best one overall.

All of the pretenders would benefit from a rigorous analysis and tweaking. Some builds are very likely to get tweaks in the next patch. Thanks for resurrecting this particular topic, doing a general writeup of this has been on my to-do list for a good while.

Re: Titan pretenders
 

I have found them useful only when they have exactly the paths I am looking for, usually for a bless combined with the need to patch a hole in my nation's magic. So for example the Zeus guy for the Earth bless and access to Air magic or the Athena lady for Astral access and a Nature bless.

I usually skip Titans though and generally go for the Cyclops - for the always useful Earth bless - or the Enchantress for a rainbow with some astral pearls to help non-astral nations get going. Not sure if that is conventional wisdom or not but has worked ok for me.

Re: Titan pretenders
 

I would agree that Cyclops and PoD should technically fall in the "monster" category.

So in general for me, within the "titan" category, they are usually only selected based upon a particular bless, and wanting mediocre dominion in that build for low cost. Going from Dom3 to Dom6 is 42 points for example, and if Dom5 can work for you that's only 21 points. So generally if you only want a single x9 bless, with moderate dominion and decent scales, an Imprisoned titan can often be the best pick. Unfortunately, this seems to be their most viable niche, with other chassis beating them easily for all other applications. (With the exception of the Father of Winters, and a couple others who are very nation limited, he makes an excellent early game SC.)

Re: Titan pretenders
 

Personally I love pretender assassins (for most you have to give them a Black Herat). A couple of titans work there.

Re: Titan pretenders
 

Cyclops is a form of titan. Moloch, PoD, Dagon, Gorgon and Virtue are all classed as titans in the DB due to having full slots, fairly high new pathcost, high dominion and decent hitpoints.

The monster chassis category in the DB includes units that have less than full horseman slots or which are otherwise unusual and which do not fit the rainbow category or something else. Common monster characteristics are variable starting dominion, high pathcost and usually fair to good combat abilities, which are hindered by the aforementioned lack of slots.

Rainbow category includes everything with a low pathcost (30 or less) unless immobile. This is why Old Man of the Sea is in Rainbow category instead of monster like Lord of the Waves, low pathcost and two starting paths, plus not being immobile.

Immortals are in the Lich category and immobiles are, well immobile (mapmove 0).

Just to clear up any confusion on why some things are in what category as laid out in the DB (assuming we are using the categories listed in the Pretender Summary section of the DB).

Re: Titan pretenders
 

I'll note that one of the major reasons I play almost exclusively CBM is because of the increased choices re: Pretenders.

Re: Titan pretenders
 

With Titans, it would be nice if they could start with some better gear. Not great, but basic low-level SC equipment. I think that would make them very viable, without destroying balance, and differentiate them from other Pretender chassis.

Cyclopes would, according to my own perceptions of Greek myth, be cousins to Titans.

Re: Titan pretenders
 

I can only agree that Cyclops, Gorgon, etc. should be considered Titans to avoid making too many categories. But this leads us to understanding that some Titans are more titanic than others. (Moloch & Prince of Death I would make into their own category, being as they are demon & undead, respectively, but that's just me). I would also include here Allfather, though he can also be considered/used as Rainbow Pretender.
Currently I also think that most of them are only useful as imprisoned blessers. Exceptions were mostly already mentioned: Gorgon, Father of Winter, maybe Cyclops & four-armed ones. These can be quite useful SCs.
There are also those which provide luck or other general bonuses. For now I have found them not very useful even in SP (but I didn't try all). The one from this category who is useful is Forge Lord - and he is also fair blesser and possible candidate for SC duty after he makes necessary items for this.

Re: Titan pretenders
 

I take one occasionally just for flavor. In fact, I have one now. It gets boring playing either a cyclops or prince of death all the time. Sometimes I just say, screw the points, I want a big, zeus-like god roaming the battlefield. Of course, I rarely actually use them in battle... they're too fragile.

Re: Titan pretenders
 

I have used a few Titans in MP that worked quite well.

For EA TC I used an awake Lady of fortune. Dom6, S6, W4. The extra good events she generated was nice to off-set the misfortune 2 I picked. Just about the time I had Const 4 and Alt 3 researched I was attacked by my neighbor, Ctiss.
The right equipment (which TC can make almost all of except blood) and the right buffs and the pretender pretty much won the war for me. Later in the game, the S6 proved very useful when fighting Oceanus and Caelum who had little access to Astral and I stole a few of their armies with Master/enslave from the pretender who was boosted to S9 with ring of wizardry, ring of sorcery, starshine cap. Add in a spellbreaker wand (which again TC can easily make)

Re: Titan pretenders
 

Here here !! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif

Re: Titan pretenders
 

I may be the exceptions to most of the sentiment here. I generally use Titan chassis when they have the bless I want. I tend to use one full bless and a Minor one. For example, generally when I play the Tuatha I use a Lord of the Forest or a Great Mother for their picks and the ability they can have to get me into Higher Earth magic. They both make a good battle combination for buffing Later game. The hit points really make them useful even if the size can be a danger for targeting.

Overall I feel that I use "titan" chassis more than most people and it makes the game a lot more fun even if its not always the most optimal. But there have been many cases where this big god protects me when a smaller pretender could not do the job. So overall I am happy with the choice.

Re: Titan pretenders
 

Thanks for the clarification Edi!

With your reasoning, I can understand why they are classified as they are. Though, I would possibly recommend that Old Man of the Sea actually be in Titan as well, because all of the old god types seem to end up there, and he is kind modeled after Poseidon, no?

Re: Titan pretenders
 

Old Man of the Sea and Lord of the Waves would be titans if they had full horseman slots (i.e. 2 hand, head, body, 2 misc), but they and the mothere of monsters are missing the body slot, which is in my opinion a significant handicap. So they are monsters like the Scorpion King, unless the pathcost is 30 or less (Old Man, Mother of Monsters) to make them a rainbow.

I just noticed that Allfather is also a rainbow pretender due to pathcost.

Re: Titan pretenders
 

Ah okay, so you are classifying them purely by functionality then. Makes sense, and leaves me nothing to say but thanks again. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: Titan pretenders
 

I always thought 20 or less was contingent for rainbow classification.

Re: Titan pretenders
 

That's up to personal preference. I chose 30, because all the units that have pathcost 30 already have at least two paths so adding a couple more low level ones isn't too expensive. But it is arbitrarily chosen. It could be 20 and it would be no problem.

A note about the Lawgiver: Listed as Rainbow despite pathcost 50 due to having a physical rainbow chassis and 3 paths to start with. Otherwise it would not fit in any category.

Re: Titan pretenders
 

I'll often use the Titans.

If I've got troops good enough that I don't feel I need an SC for early expansion/defense, then I'll often want a sleeping SC pretender for the mid-game who can also add magic diversity my nation lacks. Unless I'm looking for Earth or Death the standard Cyclops/PoD are far from the cheapest options. A rainbow (or even a lich) could get the paths cheaper, but can't play the SC role. With buffs and equipment any Titan can. And usually once he's done some summoning/forged some critical boosters, it's no longer a disaster if he dies and loses paths.

This is probably sub-optimal in many ways, mostly by being expensive. I play MP, but that doesn't mean I'm good at it.

Re: Titan pretenders
 

I've been in the same situation. I want some spesific path or combination of paths, and a titan pretender is the most cost-effective chassis, but I'm still reluctant to take it because it's so expensive for, relatively speaking, so little.

Re: Titan pretenders
 

Titan pretenders would be good as SCs, but I hate SC pretenders because to me it feels like putting all your eggs in one basket. I generally go for bless or utility chassises (utility = can cast some useful global or increase magic diversity, usually with good scales).

-Max

Re: Titan pretenders
 

Hm, I disagree.
General doesn't have SR, that's true, but he can easily cast it as he is an air mage.
He, OTOH, has better stats (defense and attack 14 compared to Titan's 12 and 100 hp compared to Titan's 90), map movement 3 and comes equipped. At Air levels beyond 6 they have almost same price and at levels beyond 4 General is cheaper.
So, I'm pretty sure that if you don't want a huge air bless or something, Celestial General is better in almost every aspect. If your nation allows to choose, of course.

In general I think that many titan pretenders are quite viable. Everything depends on what you ant to get from them)