Whats in a bunker?
 

I read awhile back that the bunkers in the oob have theories of weapons in them so i was wondering,can put any weapons in them if i want?

Re: Whats in a bunker?
 

It is unclear what you are asking here.
Bunkers with a suitable carry capcity can be loaded with guns, soldiers and what not exactly like APCs. Once loaded they will be protected against enemy weapons but at the same time they cannot fire as long as they are inside.
The bunkers themselves can be armed with any weapon exactly like if they were vehicles. Such weapons, unlike the ones carried inside, will fire at the enemy. You can rearm existing bunkers with either the OOB editor or editing the scenario directly.

Re: Whats in a bunker?
 

What i was asking was i was thinking of putting new weapons in the bunkers weapon slot but i wanted to know if there was some data in what was actully in them so i can mobhack more bunkers with the right weapons.

P.S i am not putting apc's inside them,[ example of one of my bunkers,slot1 and 2 50.cal, slot3 mark 47 gl, slot4 law b antitank weapon.]

Re: Whats in a bunker?
 

"What i was asking was i was thinking of putting new weapons in the bunkers weapon slot but i wanted to know if there was some data in what was actully in them so i can mobhack more bunkers with the right weapons."

In the modern era, give or take a few exceptions such as some cold war fortifications built in Switzerland, Italy etc.bunkers are not armed with "fixed" weapons.
Rather they usually are field fortifications (although sometimes permanent in nature such as all those albanian
pillboxes built during Hoxha rule). As such they generally will be armed with whatever infantry weapons available to troops who occupy them. Typically machine guns, rifles and stuff like that. Usully no antitank weapons as firing most ATGMs and RPGs from small enclosed spaces would be unhealthy.
Artillery (both normal and antitank) is usually entrenched rather than put inside bunkers, for the sake of range or mobility (if you put an ordinary artillery piece in a bunker you have to demolish it or leave very large openings to bring it out if you have to move).
These are some general points. There are exceptions and many more things to be said but I lack the time at the moment to go more in depth. Hopefully I will be able to later.

Re: Whats in a bunker?
 

Depends on what kind of bunker you have in mind.
If you look in the OOBs, you find bunkers based on antitank guns or field guns (or stripped tank guns), but these are heavy structures made of reinforced concrete.
On the other hand you find hastily-built structures made of wood logs, sandbags, cinderblocks, whatever expedient.

Which case you consider will influence the kind of weapon you put in there, i.e. I wouldn't put a stripped-down tank turret behind just sandbags, and in an armored casemate you can put better than LMGs.

One thing you may want to keep in mind is the recoil and/or backblast of your weapons in relation to the size of your bunker. Typically, check if your LAW B can be fired indoors (US Army FMs are pretty clear on this). That's the reason why you will not find recoilless rifles in bunkers in the game (or IRL), but if you want, you can give them Javelins without being over-the-top.

If your question is purely OOB-technical, I think you can use any weapon except for the air (classes 11, 16 and 17), mine (class 15) and probably naval (class 10) weapons.
Unit class 1 'Fortifications' can be a lot of things, including entrenched positions for artillery, AA weapons, ATGMs...

Re: Whats in a bunker?
 

"If you look in the OOBs, you find bunkers based on antitank guns or field guns (or stripped tank guns), but these are heavy structures made of reinforced concrete."

Though such structures seem to be quite rare in real life.

Re: Whats in a bunker?
 

thanks for the detailed post guys.

to marcello,thanks i think i will swich the 50.cals to m60 and take out the grenade luncher and add a m79 gl

and to plasmakrab, thanks i remember an episode of future weapons[discovery channel]that the usmc was making a at4 that can fire in a little house, it was called the at4 cs.Don' know if they got it finished yet though.

Marcello do you use the dug in tank turrents and if you do how good are they?

Thanks again this helps alout guys.

Re: Whats in a bunker?
 

"Marcello do you use the dug in tank turrents and if you do how good are they?"

It depends about what we are speaking about both in real life and in game terms.
Normal tanks dug in in the earth for a prepared defense?
Older tanks stripped of their engines, dug in concrete lined revetments and used as bunkers?
Tank turrets mounted on purpose built bunkers?
What are you referring to here?

In game terms "entrenched tank" or "bunker"?

Re: Whats in a bunker?
 

i was talking about the bunkers with just a tank turrent on top, i have never used them before.

Re: Whats in a bunker?
 

They kinda suck anyway. Unless you buy lots of them, there is no good reason to buy them instead of say, tanks.

Re: Whats in a bunker?
 

o.k so they are no good then,time to take out the trash http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

thanks wdll

Re: Whats in a bunker?
 

Added some in a couple of OOBs, more to reflect actual usage than usefulness. Some countries tend to dig in their old tanks a lot to create defensive lines, but I agree with Marcello that they tend to suck a lot in modern warfare.
Think about Switzerland, Austria, Sweden, these countries still use a lot of heavy fortifications like, as I said, stripped-down tank guns placed in concrete or stone structures with large storage and living quarters.

Re: Whats in a bunker?
 

i was thinking of making some sinarios so i mit use them there

Re: Whats in a bunker?
 

"stripped-down tank guns placed in concrete or stone structures"

Generally speaking when tank guns from older tanks are used the turret is retained.
The last swiss fortifications of this type consisted of surplus Centurion turrets placed inside a casemate to give them overhead cover. As I said bunkers armed with large caliber direct fire guns (like the various SPMBT gun bunkers), either fixed or field, seem to be rare in reality.
There are some dedicated fortress guns for indirect fire (like the swiss Bison)and shelters for protection against CB fire (like in North Korea).

Re: Whats in a bunker?
 

so if I use them only use a couple to mimic real life, okay thanks

Re: Whats in a bunker?
 

"so if I use them only use a couple to mimic real life, okay thanks"

Sorry I did not have the time to explain myself fully. Let's make an example:
OOB 17, unit 198. This is a bunker armed with a 100mm Rapira antitank gun. Here is a picture of the gun
http://svsm.org/gallery/100mm_mt-12/P1020093
In order to put such a thing in a bunker you would have to leave a very large opening for it to enter and leave. And a very large loophole for retaining a meaningful arc of fire.
While I have seen some bunkers built exactly like that they are extremely rare for several good reasons.
Tank turret bunkers are more common, as that was a common way to dispose of older tanks. For example here in Italy many obsolete tanks (Pershing etc) were used in such a fashion to create defensive strongpoint against a Warsaw pact ofensive. The soviets recycled many of their JS tanks to create strongpoints on the Kuriles and such and so on.
One would need a detailed map of such lines to be sure but I would recon that a couple of them on the typical SPMBT map would be just right.
In general the majority of "modern" bunkers (outside the rare cold war defensive line) would be either simple shelters or machineguns positions at most, built out of precast concrete and/or sandbags and such.
As for general effectiviness the germans seemed to be fond of the their Pantherturm bunkers.

Re: Whats in a bunker?
 

nice picture, you would have to leave a big opening for it[never thought it was that big].

If tank turrets are more common I might use those more but not too many on the map,would a leopard 1a3 class as an old tank I can make into a tank turret bunker?

"And most bunkers now would be shelter or machine gun positions" So there should be more of them then any other bunker on my field.

If I put infantry inside a shelter bunker will the computer unload them?

Re: Whats in a bunker?
 

Just take whatever old tanks you have lying around, dig a large hole, put your tank at the bottom and pour concrete over the hull! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif
You can pretty much put any tank (or other AFV) you want, even modern stuff even though it doesn't make sense stores-wise.You can consider your defensive line as normal troops heavily fortified. Therefore you can keep the same proportion of armor, infantry, artillery, air defense etc. (in fortified equivalent or fortification troops) as when buying for a regular defense. Replace one infantry squad/platoon with one LMG nest/ earthen bunker, infantry support with MG nests or ATGM positions, tanks with cannon bunkers...
You're free to customize, but IMO this could be a working basis for a balanced defence. Just food for thought.Not sure at all.
Try giving the infantry formation a reaction turn, they may move more easily.

Re: Whats in a bunker?
 

"If I put infantry inside a shelter bunker will the computer unload them?"

In my experience NO, I've had troops in shelters on trench lines survive some heavy arty barrages and only take some suppression. Now direct hits by a deliberate assaults I never seen, and I've never run into a bunker that the computer has loaded with troops.

Re: Whats in a bunker?
 

To plasmakrap

I maybe crazy but not that crazy to put something like a abrime in concrete http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif.

As for defense I usually don't use much bunkers but i like your idea of trading a platoon for a bunker.

As for the reaction turn I heard about it in the game guide but what will it do? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif


And to PanzerBob

okay so I will try and see if anything happens and I have never seen the computer put infantry in bunkers either.

In a regular game how many shelter bunkers do you use most of the time?I don't use them but maybe I should start.

Re: Whats in a bunker?
 

Just for perspective, the biggest weapons built into bunker in Czechoslovakia (I mean really built) were 85mm guns, used during refurbishing the pre-ww2 line on borders with Austria. Forts received modified 85mm tank guns instead of pre-ww2 planned 47mm-HMG combos, when not in use, almost entire gun was drawn back into the bunker.

The biggest caliber planned for pre-WW2 line was 120mm mortar, otherwise 100mm howitzers.

Re: Whats in a bunker?
 

As with most defences it depends a lot on the terrain and whom I'm defending against.

Since shelter bunkers are cheap and more realistic in any numbers than armed bunkers I buy 1 or two per trench line. I tend to put Hq units under this kind of cover Zugs and Kompanies.

I also find armour fare better dug into trenches, however if you move them DON'T try driving them back in as they will be disabled more times than not.

Generally speaking these kinds defences are more effective against Russian Assaults. Also don't forget to move the "sheltered" troops into the trenches once the enemy is within rifle range.

There used to be a bug years back that allowed you between battles in a campaign to buy bunkers as part of the core force and in one campaign I had enough shelter bunkers too put all Hq Gruppe under cover in a defence. Came in handy from 43 to 45 on the Ostfront. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/cool.gif

Re: Whats in a bunker?
 

"Just take whatever old tanks you have lying around, dig a large hole, put your tank at the bottom and pour concrete over the hull!
You can pretty much put any tank (or other AFV) you want, even modern stuff even though it doesn't make sense stores-wise."


"You can consider your defensive line as normal troops heavily fortified. Therefore you can keep the same proportion of armor, infantry, artillery, air defense etc. (in fortified equivalent or fortification troops) as when buying for a regular defense. Replace one infantry squad/platoon with one LMG nest/ earthen bunker, infantry support with MG nests or ATGM positions, tanks with cannon bunkers...
You're free to customize, but IMO this could be a working basis for a balanced defence. Just food for thought."

I have to disagree. Things like modern AFVs and a lot of others of the things listed above would realistically be simply "dug in" and as such best represented in the game by using the entrenching option.

Re: Whats in a bunker?
 

O.k I was wondering if it was a good idea to drive the tank back and forth,think I might use shelter bunkers against N.korea now because they use a lot of atty.

I remember that bug,once bought all the bunkers I needed for defense in my core force http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif.

Re: Whats in a bunker?
 

Depends on the defence you have in mind. I agree that, as Sniper23 said, it would be pointless to bury Abramses and such, but all users of modern material aren't masters of mobile warfare tactics. I'm thinking, why not, in 20 or 50 years, see Abrams turret dotted along ridgelines on potential border flashpoints of, say, Egypt, Quwait, Saudi Arabia...

As to modern equipment being more dug in that actually fortified, it depends on the delay you have in mind. Troops and vehicles can be hastily dug in in a matter of hours, and get out quickly to be moved somewhere else.

If you consider a really, really fixed defense (I agree, again, that there's little point to it in modern warfare), even modern material can be worth a decent preformed concrete wall and overhead cover. As I understand it, there is little more that this to ingame MG bunkers or ATGM positions. They are permanent in game scale but could probably be emptied from all their equipment in a matter of hours.

Re: Whats in a bunker?
 

Actually after the last war in Lebanon the notion of "static defense" having no chance against a modern mechanized/armored army + total air superiority + high tech information gathering, took a blow. Of course that does not mean that we must rewrite the book, so to speak. The Hezbolah didn't build a "Maginot" line, they used "hit & run" (or hit & hide) tactics but they presented a form of "static" defense network in the guerilla sense, at least that was my (amateur) impression at the time. I'd really like some more "informed" feedback on this.
On the other hand even the most advanced army needs good and determined leadership and above all a plan (has anybody understood what did the IDF want to accomplish operationally? and I don't mean the whole plan eh! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif).

Re: Whats in a bunker?
 

"Depends on the defence you have in mind. I agree that, as Sniper23 said, it would be pointless to bury Abramses and such, but all users of modern material aren't masters of mobile warfare tactics. I'm thinking, why not, in 20 or 50 years, see Abrams turret dotted along ridgelines on potential border flashpoints of, say, Egypt, Quwait, Saudi Arabia..."

The game deals with stuff up until to 2020. No way their Abrams would be released for such use by then.
The problem I have with this is that for a tank what you are looking for is already covered by the entrenching option, which models the whole affair much more realistically than the class 0 does, such as the tank being able to leave the position etc..

"If you consider a really, really fixed defense (I agree, again, that there's little point to it in modern warfare), even modern material can be worth a decent preformed concrete wall and overhead cover."

You can't give overhead cover to a turret without greatly diminishing its arc of fire.

Re: Whats in a bunker?
 

I would say that depends. Buried tanks aren't going anywhere, and so entrenching there would give an unrealistic option. Also, a lot of seriously dug in positions have very limited ways of getting in and out, and are meant to be static positions (see revetments for AFVs in firebases in Vietnam), so being able to leave by moving in any which way is similarly inaccurate. In a prebuilt scenario, you could of course use terrain management to make this more realistic.

On the matter, what kind of protection is actually afforded when you entrench and get the little sandbag wall icon around the tank? Does it get HEAT armor? Extra armor? Reduced critical hit chance? Is that in the manual (I'm at work, so I can't check ATM)?

Re: Whats in a bunker?
 

I have never seen it in the manuel but I think they get great bonus to steel armor(just looked in iraq oob and a t55 has a armor value of f=19 s=8 b=6, with it being in the cement it has a value of f=59 s=48 b=45.)

I also seen a t72 with a value of f=82 s=58 b=47 so it appears to drastically improve the steel armor at the cost of movement and it is a smaller size but the turret value is untouched.

Re: Whats in a bunker?
 

"Also, a lot of seriously dug in positions have very limited ways of getting in and out, and are meant to be static positions (see revetments for AFVs in firebases in Vietnam), so being able to leave by moving in any which way is similarly inaccurate."

Frankly I had in mind the more temporary dug in positions
meant for a prepared defense. I would guess you are right that there might be cases where getting on the move again isn't an immediate concern.

"On the matter, what kind of protection is actually afforded when you entrench and get the little sandbag wall icon around the tank? Does it get HEAT armor? Extra armor? Reduced critical hit chance? Is that in the manual (I'm at work, so I can't check ATM)?"

As I recall only the turret can be hit. Since the turret is usually better armored than the hull that is quite an
advantage.
Perhaps there might be a lower chance to hit the tank to represent the smaller target and/or spotting bonus or whatever but I don't know for sure about that.

"I have never seen it in the manuel but I think they get great bonus to steel armor(just looked in iraq oob and a t55 has a armor value of f=19 s=8 b=6, with it being in the cement it has a value of f=59 s=48 b=45.)"

I suspect that the original OOB designer meant for them to be heavily dug in tanks. Most bunkers in the game have unrealistic values anyway but with 92 nations in the game to deal with I doubt the design team will have time to look at it before the 2040s...

Speaking of iraqi bunkers, a few examples:
http://flickr.com/photos/75031815@N00/250765267/
http://news.webshots.com/photo/10968...16222121LCIdAw
http://www.flickr.com/photos/milans/28528251/

The great majority were however simple dug shelter like this:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/12bravo...7594073501593/

Re: Whats in a bunker?
 

Yup, I take the "dug-in tanks" as heavily fortified and rather permanent forts.

Re: Whats in a bunker?
 

wow those are very neat to see!

Re: Whats in a bunker?
 

The first, the turret bunker, was an one of a kind affair built after 2003 for the new iraqi army.
The second and the third were the typical bunkers built to defend the beaches of kuwait from an american amphibious assault.
From what I read and I have been told these were meant to house nothing bigger than machine guns and soldiers (no antitank guns or such). Construction was generally very light, with thin walls made out of precast concrete, concrete blocks and perhaps even concrete filled cinderblocks. Nothing strong enough to withstand direct hit with modern artillery.
As a general rule the iraqis relied, in practice and by doctrine, on earthworks rather than reinforced concrete structures. Probably because the latter were faster and cheaper to build and to repair (and if you had to advance, abandoning them would be no big deal). Given the power of modern weapons a bunker capable of withstanding direct hits would require a significant expenditure of resources, so that approach was not senseless.
The near totality of the bunkers were simple dug shelter like the one in the last picture. Meant to house a squad, they were built by digging an hole and putting in place a steel support structure which was then covered with a thickness of sandabags/gravel and such. If built to paper specs it was supposed to protect against some mortar bombs.

Re: Whats in a bunker?
 

Found some interesting info about post-wwII Czechoslovakian fortifications.
Pre-wwII forts were reactivated and rearmed, where deemed feasible (ie Western and Southern border, against Germany and Austria). Heavy fortifications got their 47mm AT guns replaced after some time by modified ZIS-S-53 85mm guns from T-34/85. Otherwise, the attempts to design mounts allowing either SG-43 HMG's or vz.52 LMG's were unsuccessfull due to perceived high costs. The forts remained till their deactivation in 1990s armed with pre-ww2 vz.26 LMG's and vz.37 HMG's, both in 7.62x57mm.
After war, manz projects were made but in the end, onlz two main fighting objects made it - KZh-1 which was generallz a basic prefabricated pillbox for LMG/MMG and KZh-2 which allowed limited use of recoilless weapons (T-21 RR and P-27 RPG). In limited (and uncertain) numbers, KZh-3 objects were built. These objects consisted of concrete underground base with a T-34/85 turret in a fully rotating mount.
Earlier experiments counted on Panzer IV's being buried in concrete, without engine etc. and with crew shelter, but experiments against a prototype revealed the construction to be too vulnerable to 85mm AT guns.

Re: Whats in a bunker?
 

sorry it took so long to get back to you, havent been on here in 2 weeks and thank you for the info.

Re: Whats in a bunker?
 

More on turret bunkers types and configurations

Basic Type: tank stripped of the useless stuff (engine for example) and put in a concrete lined emplacement.
See this as example:
http://img284.imageshack.us/img284/3401/230200033ln.jpg
Note the concrete shelter for the crew on the right

Slight variant on the above: buried hull (I think at least)
http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/1...nanpiph5kx.jpg
Note the open hatch in the left, I bet that the engine space was converted in storage space for additional ammo and what not.

A more radical conversion: the hull is discarded and the turret is put in a purpose built concrete bunker. See here one built using an early T-54 turret.
http://www.fortification.ru/uploads/Polt_UR_3_a.jpg
Also note the bunker entrance.

Another one
http://www.shatoon.ru/gallery_krabbe...h/DSC01387.JPG
Note the concrete base is shaped in such a way to protect the turret ring.

In regard to concentration typically you will not see walls of them but that does not mean that they are absolutely never grouped together

http://img134.imageshack.us/img134/518/02dv4.jpg

All these pictures were found on tanknet

Re: Whats in a bunker?
 

A shame to find that Russian page has the best online info about our KZh-3 object (ours are rather sparse on the info), but anyway here it is. Many interesting pictures.

http://vn-parabellum.com/fort/t34-turret-pb.html