OT-Black Company
 

Were any of Glenn Cook's other books worth reading. I read the Black Company trilogy a few months back, and enjoyed them.

Someone on this forum had recommended the Black Company.

Re: OT-Black Company
 

Nah, and Black Company got a little silly after the first few books, too. Really the George RR Martin precursor though. Cook was one of the Low Fantasy genre pioneers. If you liked Black Company, try Game of Thrones, etc by Martin, or The Deed of Paksenarrion trilogy by Elizabeth Moon.

Really the Song of Ice and Fire series by George RR Martin completely eclipses Tolkien in every way and is the best series I've ever read in my life, after 2000+ novels.

You'll laugh. You'll cry. You'll hurl.

Re: OT-Black Company
 

The first Black Company are the best, no question, but the later ones are still good. Not great.

Also worth a look are his Star Fisher books, where he redoes the Wagner ring cycle. Grand space opera, with a direct nod to the opera side. Written back when space opera had a bad name. Some one else did it more recently, Donaldson?, and it was much darker, but both are good.

And yes, the Song of Ice and Fire is very good as well. Last one needed an editor though, it was too sprawling and not focused enough on characters, unlike the earlier books.

Re: OT-Black Company
 

I didn't like it nearly as much either on the first read, but after going through it again lately it really seemed much, much stronger.

Re: OT-Black Company
 

How do the two latter books compare to the first?

I rather liked the first one, but I put down the second one because it kept head-shotting my suspension of belief. Okay, she's not happy, okay, she's going through a mountain range, she has a magic item?, what does this magic elf-place have to do with her?, there is a magic what hunting them?, etc. It felt like a tacked-on sidequest, in a bad way.

Re: OT-Black Company
 

I liked Black Company all through the Books of the South, but it was the Books of Glittering Stone where it started to go into the really weird stuff, especially the Murgen book.

Glen Cook's new series, Instrumentalities of the Night is great. It's set in an alternate Europe, though it could use a good map or otherwise you have to guess what is where, which is frustrating. You know it's good when I recommend a book which is set in an alternate real world based setting, because normally I absolutely detest them.

As far as SoIaF, bleh. Started out good and had a lot of good ideas whose execution is all over the place, rambling around and too many characters are killed off simply on a whim, leading to the story to going nowhere. Certain other aspects of the books I find rather distasteful, as I have said in the past.

I much prefer stuff by J.V. Jones, Janny Wurts, Chris Bunch, Gail Z. Martin, David Farland, Sarah Ash and others.

Re: OT-Black Company
 

Edi beat me to it. The Instrumentalities of the Night are easily the equal
of the very best books of the Black Company.

Re: OT-Black Company
 

Well, I can only say that Black Company series is great. Of course, Book of Murgen IS weird - after all, it's supposed to be written by a man who "was mad almost half the time"! And Book of The Lady contains discrepancies with other ones - of course! Actually, the way Glen Cook makes different characters tell about the same occurencies differently is what marks him as good writer - one among the best in the genre, from my point of view. It is also very similar with real war memoires... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif Of Instrumentalities, I've read only the first one, so don't currently know how well it develops further. His old Dark Empire cycle is surely good enough - a pity it wasn't finished.
Gerge Martin, relative to this, is just boring. It's much more interesting to read actual chronicles on which his novellization is based - and this speaks a lot, as chroniclers didn't aim at being amusing... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smirk.gif
I would recommend Robin Hobb for "those who like their fantasy dark". Plus Barbara Hambly, of course. Plus some Russian writers, but they probably won't be translated into English soon... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: OT-Black Company
 

That reminds me.

Gene Wolfe. Knight. And Wizard.

That's a strange pair of books. They aren't dark, exactly. At times, it's sweet and sappy. At times, it's more like horror, except it made me uncomfortable unlike any horror book I've read. Not afraid, but uncomfortable - I didn't know if I wanted to read what would happen, because if it went wrong, it would go bad.

A knight must be able to do more than most men, and so he does, because his name is Able, and he is a Knight. A princess is sacrificed because she knows she is a Princess.

Everything is absolutes.

It's like a legend that's grown in uncountable retellings, except it all happened like in the story. The legends just left out that everyone was afraid, all the time, but still did what they had to do; and that even though things might work out in the end, things didn't go as planned, not at all.

Re: OT-Black Company
 

Yes!!! Possibly the best among now-active authors. I don't know why I forgot to mention him - probably because he's really not exactly of the same genre. I use for such cases as this a term coined by Michael Moorcock: "epic fantasy". The definition is about as you have given.
His earlier books were also great - both Arete and Torturer cycles.

Re: OT-Black Company
 

Agreed though I would put it on equal footing with JR's stuff. Unparalleled character development. I read the first one in 1996 and lamented the next wouldn't be out for a coon's age. When it did come out I'd forgotten about the series (my retrograde amnesia). Now I'm rereading the first one thanks to a chance Father's Day gift from my step kids and looking forward to finishing them in succession.
-SSJ

Re: OT-Black Company
 

Eclipse is a very strong word, when referring to a pioneer in a field.

I mean, in some circles if you were to say "Hawking is such an amazing mathematician, his work completely eclipses Einstein!" - well, you might get stuffed into a particle accelerator. >.>

Re: OT-Black Company
 

Thanks for all the advice!

Jordan and martin were both very strong starters, but neither was the equal of Tolkien. Tolkien told a masterful story that actually had an ending. Yes he had sub plots, but they never distracted him from the main theme and he tied them all up nicely and concluded the series.

Jordan actually died before he finished his series, which began to decline from a lack of vision. Martin has too many subplots as well, and is having a hard time finishing his story.

Re: OT-Black Company
 

The first book of SoIaF was so revolutionary, so full of hope and promise, that it literally took my breath away, but sadly, the rest of the series hasn't lived up to that. It's still very good, and contains a lot of very high notes, but the greatness of the first book is diluted by too much grub-work and wordiness. Martin, in my opinion, should have sat on the sequils, ignored publishers' demands, and even avoided signing with a publishing house until each book was as refined and good as he could make it-and retained some very strong editorship. It's a lot like the Matrix-it starts off eye-popping, but then degrades into an effort that still looks good, still intrigues, but disappoints as well, and ultimately, feels rushed and half-baked.

Re: OT-Black Company
 

You guys are crazy. lol

George RR Martin owns us all.

Re: OT-Black Company
 

Tolkien's greatness-and yes, I do appreciate his work a lot, although I think it has a lot of major faults as well-was the completeness of his world, and his willing and constant refinement and expansion on a central theme.

He also had the twin joys of a relatively new genre to work with, and make inroads into, and some real masters of that genre (Dunsany, etc) to be inspired by.

Re: OT-Black Company
 

RenoJustin: I like GRRM, but honestly, he's not the best writer that ever came down the pike. His strength is in writing fantasy for adults, and that's good, but he's still writing the same tired old fantasy as everybody else. It's got some innovation, but it's got a lot of flaws too, and they're big, obvious flaws.

Re: OT-Black Company
 

GRRM and Jordan both are awesome storytellers. The 1st 3 books of Jordan's were among the best ever. As were GRRM.

But you must be judged on the work in toto, not on bits and pieces. And the end is considered a very important part of most stories!

Re: OT-Black Company
 

Jordan's books weren't even worth reading to the end. I made it to around book 8 on the strength of the original setting, but it got so wordy and confusing-even after I shelled out 40$ for the world-book-and frankly, annoying, that I gave up on it completely.

Re: OT-Black Company
 

Well, this surely goes beyond the initial topic, but nevertheless:
Agreed with you and HoneyBadger that definite ending surely improves the writers' work. Tolkien, of course, was in a position better than that of modern commercial writers. Actually, what an approach such as theirs can bring is seen in Cristopher Tolkien's "sequels". And as Robert Asprin has written to his fans: "It's quite difficult to remain funny continuously for six books". And in less light-hearted genre it's possibly more difficult still. However, the recipe is simple: not to write soap operas. There ARE even modern writers who upkeep such a principle. I had already named some. And Martin & Jordan... they possibly don't even see the problem. Glen Cook surely does - and he makes memorable endings. That would be enough to say that those two aren't even close to him in work quality. However, I disagree about "very strong starters" - very strong relative to what? And what their "strength" consists of? They are quite primitive - and in Martin's case main plot is borrowed (& he doesn't do justice to his material, from my point of view)...
What did you see as "revolutionary"? Remember that this was written after Dixon's Saint Dragon, for Cthulhu's sake! "Grub-work" I surely see, but greatness?! And as for "ignoring publishers"... It takes character, man! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif
Please speak for yourself. I, for myself, is completely nonplussed. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smirk.gif
And you speak thusly after Tanith Lee??? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif And what I've heard said about his "innovation" is using real world history as framework for his story. As I've said, I prefer actual chronicles. And in any case, Turtledove does this so much better! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif Though even for Turtledove, who IS a real historician such method HAS caused much laziness in making his own material of late... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif Which shows what it does for a writer. Though I'm not sorry for Martin in this case.

Re: OT-Black Company
 

RE Gene Wolf: I keep meaning to read him. Authors that I respect have praised him highly (Steven Brust comes to mind) and I'm curious to see what they're so in awe of.

RE GRRM: I would have enjoyed ASoIaF more if it weren't so perverted. I read an interview where GRRM commented that he liked Tyrion best because he empathizes with the "horny little $#@&^" and this made me look pretty hard at the books. I started to feel like all the incest (what, 5 or 6 counts?) and other unpleasantness was there to titillate and not to horrify, and that turned me off the books.

-Max

Re: OT-Black Company
 

Quoted for truth. Never mind the way the Daenerys marriage scene is described, which amounts to basically a rather graphic description of pedophilia. *shudder*

No, I won't be touching his books too much, especially given how the plot went to crap in Storm of Swords when he killed off too many characters.

Re: OT-Black Company
 

It all depends on your tastes and sensibilities, of course, but Gene Wolfe is a serious writer is a way than none of the others mentioned so far are. Many of the other mentioned works have their merits. GRRM writes well, although I personally couldn't finish "Game of Thrones". Brust and Cook write fine entertainment. Tolkien sired the modern fantasy genre.

But Wolfe is the one you want, after Tolkien, if you want to discuss lasting value. They ain't gonna award a Nobel for science fiction or fantasy, not anytime soon, but if they wanted to, with Borges dead, it'd go to Wolfe. Many of his books are literary, no question. Some of them leave you with the impression that you weren't smart enough to read them. And that's not a path to popularity.

He writes on big themes, in original worlds, with incredible characters. He doesn't slow down for you...he writes the story, and it's your job to read it, whether he's using words that have been obsolete for several centuries, or whether his narrator is unreliable due to personality or injury, or whether he just hasn't told you the things the narrator knows, and expects you to have figured out on your own. But everything comes together, and the sum is far greater than the parts.

The aforementioned "Wizard Knight" duology is a good start. They are as straightforward as Wolfe gets, and you see the way he handles worlds and characters (and words, for that matter). He's taken the classic trope of the boy in our world falling into a fantasy world and coming of age as a hero and twisted it inside out a few times until it's become a study in the growing maturity of a hero. It's a world based on a well-known Earthly mythology, for cryin' out loud, and yet the whole thing comes off fresh and original.

I have to follow up on something Endoperez said upthread...

That's a familiar feeling. Wolfe can make you feel, and not the way you expected. There's a point in his "Book of the Short Sun" where the viewpoint character becomes scary, not because he's evil, but because he is good. It was like reading the life of a saint. I felt uncomfortable not knowing if I wanted things to go right.

Thus endeth my rant...

Re: OT-Black Company
 

And here's a link to a whimsical little essay on "Reading Gene Wolfe" by Neil Gaiman, himself no mean fantasist:

http://www.sfsite.com/fsf/2007/gwng0704.htm

Re: OT-Black Company
 

A Game of Thrones was revolutionary, to me anyway, in that every single fantasy trope got turned on it's head, while still being set in a fantasy setting that lived and breathed and was intriguing. The hero of the story was a deformed midget, the princess was being sold as a slave to a bunch of barbarians, and nobody rescued her, her brother, the rightful king, was vile, and died 2 seconds into the book, the dragons were all dead, the villains were pretty much a matter of opinion, atleast at the time, and the overall theme was mature and dark and-atleast for the first book, full of intricate characters and machinations and elements which intrigued, rather than annoyed. It stood out to me, strongly, and made me want more-and then ofcourse the sequils disappointed and disappointed again. But for a time, for that first book, it was extraordinary to me, even the pornographic scenes, the confused and askew moral compass, and the character slaughter. I hadn't seen those things before, and they did make the world the author was creating more real. And there's no real reason that those elements couldn't have continued to make for a great series. It was the fault of the author that the series has fallen apart, not the content that he was continuing.

Re: OT-Black Company
 

Yeah, I was initially attracted to the series by a recommendation that it was fantasy evil done *right*. Evil, in practice, isn't the megalomaniacal Dark Overlord who wants to turn the world into zombies, it's something a lot more human and (on some level) understandable. I liked "A Game of Thrones" because it wasn't entirely clear who the "good guys" and "bad guys" were or that the "good guys" were all going to wind up on the same side. It made it seem more relevant to real life. Some parts of the series have apparently continued to develop on that theme--Jaime has turned out to be a surprisingly complex character by all reports--but I haven't been following closely.

Steven Erikson's writing has its faults (SE and ICE have developed a lot of characters over the years and perhaps sometimes too many of them wind up in the a single book) but 1.) he writes a book a year, and the MBotF has a definite end in sight two years from now, and 2.) it's not pornographic. Ugly things happen (sieges and rapes and tragic murders just when you least expect it) but neither the author nor the protagonists enjoy it. Some of the more twisted villains do (Tanal Yathvanar springs to mind)...

-Max

P.S. I LOVE the redemption of the Jaghut villain Pannion in Memories of Ice.

Re: OT-Black Company
 

This thread has officially become awesome reading. 8 )

(Sort of OT Warning, I got really carried away, read only if your head hasn't already exploded from the rest of the thread.)


Unfortunately, I haven't a lot to add (edit just before actually posting, this is a LIE, I have a lot to add). For the last 10 years or so, I've upheld a strict policy of only reading non-fiction, or if I do read fiction, that it is something that has real literary merit. For instance, the last fiction that I read was "The World Inside", by Robert Silverberg. Great depth and storytelling, and really makes you think - I highly recommend it.

It's rare that fantasy is written anymore that really opens up your mind, and makes you THINK. Well, my mind, and making ME think anyways - after the sum total of all words which I have consumed. Isn't that sad? It's a genre that is supposed to be about imagination and vision more than any other, and yet what do people do with all of that potential? Well, they do one of two things - they either regurgitate more of the same to make a buck, or they create something vividly their own... but their creation ends up expressing little or nothing, it paints a pretty picture, but when you look closer, it doesn't show you anything more.

I do have my guilty pleasures from the past, including Anne McCaffrey (who seems to have few fans around here! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif come on, I found her when I was 11...), and the Dragonlance series which likewise started when I was in my prime of reading. Which btw, from what I recall, the original Dragonlance trilogy is not just fun, but rather innovative, AND thought provoking (at least, if you haven't read fantasy for 20 years already, and thought the duality of good and evil into the ground).


I would be very grateful if someone could turn me on to some modern fantasy that would really reward me for my time reading it. Unfortunately, I can smell empty literary calories a mile away - and I am on a strict diet now. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif I'm intrigued by a couple of the authors referenced here, but also feel vindicated by the general pattern of "post 1: hey I think this author is so good and worth reading" segueing into "post 2: that author has good qualities, but let me list everything that's wrong with his work". http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif Definitely saves me the time of finding out the hard way that some novel or series or other would just be me adding another name to my list of "hack authors I would like to lecture about the point of writing". http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif


Final note on that subject - I am not 100% against fluff, if it is not advertised as more. For example, the Stainless Steel Rat series by Harry Harrison. It's just FUN, and easy reading cause you know it's just fun. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif And of course any books that push themselves off as fluff, but really are more, like Hitchhiker's Guide, et al. That's not an easy trick to pull off, and I greatly admire it.

Re: OT-Black Company
 

Did somebody invoke the name of James Bolivar "Slippery Jim" DeGriz? Wow, the Stainless Steel Rat was an enormous influence on me, in my formative years. I still read them. Harrison's DeathWorld series is another fun read, by the way-although I understand the last few books are in untranslated Russian, or something.

It's funny how both Harrison's Bill the Galactic Hero series and Hitchhiker's feature planets made from-or atleast covered with-pure gold.

Mostly I go for older authors-there's just so much material out there!-but here's a few of the new garde that I do recommend.

James Vandermeer-Vandermeer teaches creative writing in Florida, and I'd love to attend his classes, because his writing is amazingly imaginative, inventive, and evocative, rich with atmosphere, subtle flavors, and a strong presence. Reading his books always gives me the same feeling as going on vacation to somewhere exotic.

David Drake is a solid author who's written mostly military sci-fi, but has recently produced some very decent fantasy. The Lord of the Isles series is quite good-basically sword and sorcery, it's entertaining and fun, not too heavy, bu written with enough intelligence and imagination to intrigue.

Janny Wurts is another excellent author-often overshadowed by Raymond Feist whom she's worked with, I consider her the stronger of the pair. Try The Master of Whitestorm for starters: It's a standalone, and very powerful.

Neil Gaiman is, yes, as good as the hype. Everything he writes is gold, as far as I'm concerned, but I'd suggest starting with Neverwhere, if you've never read him, and follow it up with American Gods.

I have to mention John Crowley. If you haven't read "Little, Big", do so now. It's the best fantasy novel I've ever read, even though it's set in contemporary America.

I really, really like Tom Deitz. I'm often surprised that he seems to always go unmentioned in these sorts of discussions. I don't find many grievous faults in his writing, and the high notes are quite satisfying. It's not the deepest fantasy in the world, it's true, but there's generally enough substance to last one beyond a given book-and I like the way the books themselves make me feel. There's a sort of "double-fantasy" going on, because Deitz manages to capture the essence of a youthfulness, and a youth, that I find myself envying. I'd switch places with several of his human, flawed characters-with the many ups and downs they experience-than I would with many a larger than life "heroic legend". He writes about people I actually wish I knew, in real life, and how many authors do that?

Stephen Brust is a wonderful writer, and I can't recommend him enough, except that I just can't abide his Taltos novels. To me they read like an internet chatroom live action role-playing melodrama, where everybody's part dragon, part elf, and part supermodel, with a mandatory tragic past, lost love, sentient weapon, adopted children, sparkling emerald eyes, and enough powerful friends to gag a senate committee. So, take that as you will, but I do consider him extraordinarily talented, aside from that. Try "Cowboy Feng's Space Bar and Grill" http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif It's not fantasy, but it's good.

David Gemmell is excellent. A bit over the top, consistently, and some of his stuff just doesn't "work" for me, but I think that's more me than him. Good, gritty stuff though, that I respect.

And Terry Pratchett. Light, humorous fantasy, that manages to be better, richer, deeper, more wonderful than 99% of the stuff that's really trying hard. Pratchett has my vote for immortality.


http://www.sff.net/people/Amy.Sheldon/listcont.htm

This is a really good site that lays out the details on a *lot* of fantasy authors-contemporary through classical. Should be helpful! (although it's too even-handed in my opinion, when it comes to recommending authors and books).

Re: OT-Black Company
 

Why did you not mention Gene Wolfe, Honeybadger? His work is mostly sci-fi, but his two most recent books, The Knight, and The Wizard, are certainly high fantasy at it's best. Although some could even construe his masterworks, Shadow and Claw, to be fantasy.

Re: OT-Black Company
 

Oh and Gene Wolfe. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif I was going to, but to be honest, I'm not as familiar with him as I'd like. I'll correct that in time, but I don't know enough about his writing to judge it very well.

Re: OT-Black Company
 

Okay Badger, you win my friend. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif I'm going to check out Neverwhere, as this is not the first place I've seen the name Neil Gaiman just lately, so it must be a sign. If that works out, I may pick up some others - but I don't spend as much time reading as I used to, so we shall see how that goes. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

At any rate, thanks! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

Re: OT-Black Company
 

Personally, I had a sentient beltbuckle. And I'd recommend Brust's "To Reign in Hell" before "Cowboy Feng's". It's fantasy, captain, but not as we know it. It's also brilliantly written.

I also recommend Lois McMaster Bujold's fantasy, in particular her "Curse of Chalion."

Re: OT-Black Company
 

I also like Brust's TRIH. Very tragic.

-Max

Re: OT-Black Company
 

Hi, all this talk about the fantasy books got me interested and I found some images which would make nice Dom3 maps. Maybe one of the fans of the "A Song of Ice And Fire" series wants to make a Dom3 map out of Westeros with those images?

See http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/thr...?Number=621022

Re: OT-Black Company
 

I haven't read TRIH. Cowboy Feng was the first experience I had with Brust, and although it's probably not everybody's cup of tea, the extraordinary, even awesome, thing about Cowboy Feng is that every chapter in the book is written in a different writing style-and there are a lot of chapters. It's like reading an anthology of 16 different short stories by 16 different authors, except that they're all the *same* author, and they all continue the *same* story. That's special, especially to me because, as a writer, I like to play with different styles and mimic other authors.

By the way, speaking of modern writers, this is what I'm reading now:

http://www.johndiesattheend.com/

I'm only on the first few chapters so far, but it's really, really good! not to mention free, and easily accessible online.

Re: OT-Black Company
 

Hey, honeybadger, as a writer, what do you think of the community at Pagesunbound?

if you aren't familiar with the site, it has a bunch of aspiring writers who are attempting to circumvent publishers by self-publishing online.

Re: OT-Black Company
 

Well, I love self-publishing. I'll check the site out, thanks http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: OT-Black Company
 

Commenting as a reader, I'm not interested in reading anything that have "circumvented the publishers." I don't want to have to sort through the slush pile myself.

Re: OT-Black Company
 

You make the assumption that the publishers' interests and your interests coincide, and that therefor they tend to make the best choices for you. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Since you are here, I would assume that you are not a slave to the Best Sellers' list, so I actually find this comment a bit odd. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif Well that comment, not this one, I don't find this one odd at all. >.> Okay, the last comment, yes that was odd, but the one before it wasn't, neither is this one.

Shhhh.

Re: OT-Black Company
 

Not at all; but experience has shown that publisheres overall make good choices for me, and I'm willing to pay them for that work. Plus, what I've seen of self published writing tends to suggest that practically all of it is overwritten, underedited, badly clicheed tripe.

Besides, the interests of an author's are no more convergent with my own than are those a publisher's, so why should I believe that self-publishing authors would in any way benefit me as a reader?

Re: OT-Black Company
 

I started reading the first book in the Dragonlance series (Dragons of Autumn Twilight) and i´m finding a very interesting book...

While the characters are very typical RPG (the book was based in a series of RPG sessions after all) they are very well portrayed, being well developed even when stereoptical (spelling?)...

The honor-bound paladin, the gruff warrior dwarf, the powerful lawful evil/physicaly weak wizard, the care-free kender thief, the charismatic half-elven ranger, the strong warrior, the barbarian warrior and barbarian warrior/cleric (i think), while easily identifiable are given a good characterization, with motives of being in the group, origins, personality traits and quirks, bringing normally two-dimensional characters to life...

ím a third throught the book and, so far, enjoying the ride...

Happy 4th, everyone!
 

Plenty of good self-publishing out there, and yes it does need sifting, but so do the things publishers put out. Trust me on this: Most of the stuff that's published in a given year could have served just as well for toilet paper. The link I posted up above is as good as anything you're likely to pick out at Barnes & Noble, without a *lot* of research, and it's self-published and free to read. If you're just reading things based on publishers and their opinions, then while the average pick might be somewhat better than a random poke in the dark, you're likely to miss the very best writing that's out there.

I spend as much time researching what to read, as I do reading, but it's always worth it. I just don't have the time in this life to waste on writing that isn't great, because there's so much great writing to be had.

If anyone wants a recommendation from me on what's worth reading, by the way, I'm more than happy to give you a good selection. Often free on the internet. Just PM me or whatever.

And the Dragonlance series wasn't too bad, atleast for TSR. I read a lot of it when I was younger, and I especially liked the book about Huma, and Kaz the Minotaur. The volumes of short stories were also fun. It's not something I would waste money and time on now, but that's as much literary snobbishness and lack of time as it is criticism.

Re: Happy 4th, everyone!
 

Dragonlance is fine for prepubescent nerds-to-be if you live in an undeveloped country with no video games or good novels.

Re: OT-Black Company
 

I see you prefer your cliche'd tripe underwritten and overedited. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Well, Badger beat me to it. It's true for any art form, really. Financial success is not in any way an accurate barometer of skill, talent, or expression. Is there a lot of bad self-published writing out there? Well of course there is! Bad art is everywhere you look. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif Just because the store has a bestseller list that will allow you to read the same few books as everyone else, which are mostly the same as the books you read before them, but with different authors - doesn't mean that the self-publishing houses won't have a competitive product.


And Reno, I am not sure what you actually hoped to accomplish with that post. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif

Re: OT-Black Company
 

If that's the alternative, yes.

No, of course not. The reason why self-publishing, with rare exceptions, won't have a competitive product is because they'll lack skilled editors, proofreaders and typesetters. Publishing houses doesn't just publish books -- they also make sure the book is publishable, as in worth publishing.

Re: OT-Black Company
 

Back on topic, Cook is very, very, very good. I love pretty much everything he wrote, except Garrett books (they are ok, just not my kind of genre). I like his penchant to kill leading characters left and right, often not even bothering to describe their deaths. Last Black Company novel was a massive massacre.

I suggest his older Dread Empire series as well. First book is kinda slow, but then it picks up a pace. Similar to BC, but less fantasy and more genuine feudalism. As for scifi, the Starfisher spinoff novel "Passage at Arms" and stand-alone "The Dragon Never Sleeps" might be the best space opera novels ever.

Re: OT-Black Company
 

That might be what they are supposed to do, but they don't always do that well. Not only that, but publishers are not always the best judges of who is and who isn't good. A number of perfectly comptent (in a few cases now famous) authors have had a great deal of trouble getting some of their works published.

Re: OT-Black Company
 

They're not perfect, no, but overall they tend to do their job competently.

Of course not. They're just much, much better than the authors themselves are.

I don't consider that a disadvantage of publishing, quite the contrary.

Why the average publisher isn\'t much better than a
 

crack dealer, in practice.

Publishers, atleast the big ones with the most money, have one purpose, and that is to sell as many books as possible to as many people as possible. That's their purpose. They don't give a flying expletive about quality, if they can sell quantity. That's how they gain their success. They cut down trees, chop them up, smear ink on the wood pulp, and feed it to you. And if you don't believe that, then you're watching, and enjoying, television far too much, and it's brainwashed you.

How anyone could even concieve, let alone announce in public, in this forum particularly, that publishers-by and large-were arbiters and dispensers of only the finest quality literature, refined, weighed, and cut like a pure porcelain cocaine-illicit, and intoxicating-because they had their readers' best interests in mind, instead of being merchants of whatever addictive poison they could get people to pay money for and waste their time on; that here was some kind of happy circle of noble human enlightenment and betterment, where the cream rises to the top, bourne on the wings of our wiser, better angels from the hallowed temples of Publishdom...it's not just beyond me, it's beyond all naivete. Scary-crazy, like people who sell their homes and give the money to televangelists.

Publishing books is a big business, that operates like the gaming industry, like Hollywood, and like television. Why risk thousands and thousands of dollars on something that only a small portion of the population (well educated, discerning, bookworms) is actually going to appreciate, when you can get a higher profit by printing another easy to read schlockfest. And if you have something of quality already, and can make it sell better by tacking on a bunch of stuff that doesn't add to the quality, but DOES add to the appeal, then all the better.

Ever notice how books used to be mostly complete from beginning to end, but then they all turned into trilogies? And now they just go on and on for 7, 8, 9+ books? It's because the publishers know that once they have an audience, they can hold on to a lot of it and sell it books over and over again, until the writer drops dead. And the publishers don't even have to worry about the quality of the books because-guess what?-people will *keep reading them* even if they're awful, because they get hooked. Just like crack.

Ofcourse, I know the end results are better-but if you shoot someone, and they live and go on to win Nobel Prize for Peace because of their outspoken commitment to worldwide gun-control, does that make it ok?

Re: Why the average publisher isn\'t much better than a
 

The homogenization of literature is not really the publishers' fault. It's not even really the big bookstores' fault. It is, at least in part, the fault of the Law of Unintended Consequences, stemming from a Supreme Court decision "Thor Power Tool Company vs. IRS Commissioner." http://www.sfwa.org/bulletin/articles/thor.htm

I'm sure technological and social change factors in there too. Anyway, the occasional discussions on self-publishing that I've seen indicate that getting a good editor (and cover artist) are MUSTS if you want to be successful at self-publishing, and self-publishing takes a lot of work. Unlike the music industry, artists in the book industry receive significant value from their publishers and don't tend to view them as antagonists.

Enough OT for me today...

-Max