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Baalz July 10th, 2008 10:16 AM

HINNOM EATS EVERYTHING
 
Well, those of you familiar with my other guides know I tend to fall a bit in love with a nation as I write a guide for it. That said, I’m just astounded at the strength that Hinnom can bring to bear. They are absolutely first class early, middle, and late game and have so many really good options that the biggest problem is remembering not to try and spread yourself too thin across strategies. With no chink in their armor that a pretender must fill, I’d suggest going with an imprisoned blood fountain with just enough blood to summon the Lords of Civilization and max out all your scales. Order for income, production for awesome troops, luck for awesome (and plentiful) national heroes, heat because it’s free, magic because you can, and growth because HINNOM EATS EVERYTHING and your population will be dropping wherever your big giants are. You’ll want a decently high dominion score to help spread that glorious dominion, and don’t forget you can blood sacrifice to push it even faster.

Expansion. I can’t think of another nation with expansion potential this good. The troops you *start* with are capable of taking out the vast majority of indies, from heavy cavalry to barbarians. With good scales, by the time you’ve captured a couple provinces around your capital you’re able to field 2 (!) expansion parties a turn from your capital. The chariots in groups of 4 will take out pretty much any non-barbarian human infantry, supplement this with groups of a dozen Dawn Guard to take out almost anything else. Under ideal province neighboring conditions you should be able to land 30+ provinces by the end of year one without even burning through an obscene amount of gold as each expansion party is relatively cheap.

Castles. Most terrain yields a terrible 1400 gold Tel City, but forests give you an 800 gold forest fortress. With your insane expansion you shouldn’t have a problem capturing several forests – this is pretty much the only place you want to build castes. Fortunately with your nitro-charged expansion and frugal spending you should be able to start putting up an 800 gold castle per turn roughly turns 6-12. You should have about 5 castles by the end of year one.

If you’re feeling frisky, feel free to roll over an opponent or two at this point. Between your chariot (size 6, high protection tramplers) and dawn guard (high hp, 16 defense, high strength, magic weapon wielding), 5 castles with production-3 scales should leave you able to steamroll most opponents. If you’re fighting somebody using a fire bless, look at using Rephaite Warrior as their fire resistance pretty much negates the flaming weapons. If you’re opponent refuses to acknowledge his death at the hands of your troops, your Ammi with a tiny bit of research and a few gems can lay down everything from fireballs and thunder strikes to paralyze and destruction. Just research whatever you need to put the hurt down on your opponent. Don’t feel remorse as you scrape your neighbor off the bottom of your boots, just remember HINNOM EATS EVERYTHING.

Research. All those castles going up have a tremendous advantage. Due to the fact that they lack any hard-coded magic paths, you can recruit Ammi without needing either a lab or a temple! That’s right, while other nations are spending anywhere from 1200-2000 gold for the cheapest mage factory they have available, yours cost 800. This is on top of your ridiculous gold income from your ridiculous expansion and ridiculous scales. Recruit them out of your new castles and move them back to your capital (or any lab).

Gems. With national mages and no boosters Hinnom can remote site search Every. Single. Path….except water. They also have pretty good manual site searchers in the Horite Shaman to prime the pump. Use shamans to lead your first few initial expansion parties, then as soon as you can, replace them with indie commanders and have them site search. This will give you earth, death and nature gems along with your capitol’s earth, fire, astral and blood income to start some heavy site searching. You can also do a little bit of manual site searching with the Ammis who get air randoms until you’ve got a few gems for auspex.

So, before hitting mid game you will likely have more provinces, income, gems, and research than any other nation. Potentially a lot more. Hit the construction research and start recruiting a Ba’al every turn from your capital and Kohen/Ammi from the castles you’re now putting labs and temples in (hey, spread that glorious dominion around!). Note, HINNOM EATS EVERYTHING, so you’ll want to designate a sacrificial province to keep your main mages at. As they start piling up the population will all be eaten, it’s a good idea to do this outside of your capital. It’s also a good idea to do this in a castle so that your enemies cannot force a fight on their own terms.

Once you hit construction-4 is when the real fun starts. All your Kohen will crank out sanguine rods and start blood hunting. Remember, keep just three per province because HINNOM EATS EVERYTHING. Your growth scales will help, but if possible you’re gonna want to target slightly higher population provinces for blood hunting than otherwise. Check out my guide to blood hunting as a section of my Mictlan guide, but remember to adjust your spending as you suddenly start massive blood hunting, you’re gonna go from having more gold than you know what to do with to a very frugal budget (and having more blood slaves than you know what to do with)

Do a bit of real quick alteration and enchantment research, and swing up for thau-3 and now those Ba’al are supertroopers indeed. You almost can’t go wrong with equipment, the extra gore attack means you don’t even really need the standard AOE weapons – a sword of sharpness and horned helm (second gore attack!) will often clear a whole tile as well as any frost brand. You’ll want some reinvig, and regen always helps, but in a pinch these guys can be sent out with just a few very cheap items. Earth Ba’als summon earth power, iron will, iron skin (invulnerability) and smash away. Fire Ba’als (the weakest) fire shield and eventually phoenix pyre (you’ve got national healers to fix the inevitable owies). Astral Ba’als can teleport with no boosters and drop luck & body ethereal. Any of these will easily solo anything short of a real army. Put some good equipment on them and they’re top shelf SCs. Heck, in a pinch, con-2 and thau-3 are enough to give you a teleporting thug who can take out plenty of PD! Just equip an astral Ba’al with an amulet of breathing to jump right in and start swiping some water provinces in that lake across the map that doesn’t have a water nation in it before anybody else can get there! Control a huge chunk of land *and* grab a big chunk of water because HINNOM EATS EVERYTHING.

Far from being one trick ponies though, Ba’als are also extremely powerful at home in a lab. Earth Ba’als will leverage your solid earth income and crank out first dwarven hammers, then blood stones. That’s right, as if Hinnom wasn’t already over the top they have probably the best synergy for gem producing items of any nation. Blood slaves are cheap and they’ve already have a strong earth income…doesn’t take much to see where that’s going. Additionally, take those blood stones you’re minting and stick them on Kohen who get an earth random. Now do a very cheap blood empowering (30 slaves) and set him to month casting of summon demon knight. Demon knights are very effective in groups of about 10 (particularly buffed with bloodlust, legions of steel, and weapons of sharpness), so once you get 4-5 of these summoners set up you’ll have a significant supply, and the earth gems will start rolling in.

On the topic of low level demon summons Hinnom also has a very effective national summon in the Shedim. What makes it so effective is the fact that unlike other low level blood summons, you summon 3 per casting so you don’t need too many dedicated casters. A single mage can mass 30 of these lightning throwing uber-archers in under a year, which is enough to absolutely decimate most armies, particularly buffed with wind guide and arrow fend (your opponent will likely be trying to “fire archers” with their own archers). It’s good you don’t need too many mages because getting them can be difficult, but a couple of your national heroes can cast the spell and there are worse investments with your auspex fueled gem income than a single empowering (with a little bit of work you can leverage this into robes of the magi as well). Unless you need flying commanders you can skip the Arch Devils….they’re inferior to the Ba’al you’re recruiting every turn. Instead, extra blood slaves can also be poured into ritual of the five gates, which is in easy reach for your Ba’al. But the real joy of all those blood slaves is....

Oh the Horror. Hinnom has some really nasty horror spam potential. Everyone knows (I guess) that horrors are scary, but I’m continually surprised at how many people scoff when I claim that lesser horrors are even better in most situations for the cost. Every astral Ba’al can send a lesser horror with no boosters, and they only cost 9 slaves (you’ll have plenty). A single lesser horror will, with good regularity (something like 70-90% of the time) take out medium to heavy PD – so long as you target the right PD. Any PD composed of troops dealing 13 or less damage (by and large humans wielding spears, which are hugely represented among PD) will have trouble stopping the lesser horrors. Ethereal + high defense + 15 protection + a life draining attack means they’re usually healing faster than spear infantry can damage them, and the fear aura (against PD’s generally bleh moral) means they don’t have to kill all that many. Use scouts to conquer the freshly cleared province, and I’ll let you in on a little secret. If you have a scout hidden in an enemy province, and you give him orders to attack a different enemy province, then horrors take out the PD in both…magic phase -> you’re the only one left in province A so you gain control, movement phase -> you walk into empty province B and claim it. Note: horrors stack extremely well, so if you need to take out something stronger, just send more lesser horrors.

But wait, there’s more! Lesser horrors are also very, very effective at taking out SCs. Go ahead and scoff, I’m used to it….until I start brining down kitted out angels and tartarians. How this works is like this – use horrors (or anything really) to take all the provinces surrounding the SC in the magic phase, this is usually very easy when the SC is on offense. Now, send 6+ lesser horrors in at the SC. The horrors have an AN attack so who cares about the SCs protection? They’re size 3 with 2 attacks, and are apparently scripted to attack large enemy monsters, so if you sent 16 of them the SC would be surrounded and attacked 32 times before he can buff – good luck with defense. Here’s the dirty little secret though – you don’t need to send 16 lesser horrors, 6 will do regardless of how tough the SC is because of the fear aura. Surrounded by 6 lesser horrors the SC will end up with a negative 10 moral or so and flee, with no place to flee to. Anything not berserking, mindless, or immortal won’t have a chance (and those that are will at most require a few more lesser horrors).

Ah, but the joy of horrors isn’t over yet. Every astral Ba’al can also cast call (greater) horror, blood rain, and teleport, and is tough enough to live through some archer fire. So, your opponent’s large army is marching into a heat 3 strong dominion (starvation, enemy dominion), you can pretty easily cut off escape routes (lesser horrors, teleporting SCs), and you can at will teleport in, reduce their moral by another 4, summon a couple very high fear aura guys (cast a couple horror marks first to make sure that *they* get attacked!), then either cast returning, or if the enemy army is particularly high moral maybe cast a couple bloodlettings before you go. If they retreat, they all die. If you’re particularly evil (like me) you’ll consider casting dark skies to make it practically impossible to invade you with non-mindless troops. SCs get eaten alive by lesser horrors and armies flee every time you fart. Blood sacrifice out of your copious temples and with your strong dominion your opponents will be worried about a dominion loss on top of everything else.

But wait, there’s more! Ba’als are uniquely suited to cast a spell that otherwise is very hard to use effectively – hell power. With enough hps to survive a couple AN hits from a horror, and readily available horror killing body guards (dawn guards – good attack skill, high damage, magic weapons), and enough blood magic to cast it without passing out, they can cast it with a fair amount of imperviousness. Hellpower + phoenix power + 2 boosters = 8F. Or 8E, or 8S. If you want to show off, toss in a crystal shield, robe of the magi, and ring of wizardry and scoff at your opponent pretender’s puny magic paths. Without being showy though, you’re talking aout 6f/e/s with no boosters. I’ll leave the effective use of this as an exercise to the student.

Honestly, I don’t even know how you can get to your best stuff without having already EATEN EVERYTHING, but if you’re just goofing around I guess you can get up to the Lords of Civilization. I think these guys are pretty self explanatory and have gotten enough attention already so I won’t expound on the obvious advantage these guys bring. On top of that, you’ll also now be casting infernal crusade and infernal forces, have the mages to single handedly cast master enslave, army of lead, and firestorm, have a very good gem income (in everything other than possibly water) and are running out of commanders to stick blood stones on. Oh, and you’ve got national healers if anybody gets an owie.

Tifone July 10th, 2008 10:37 AM

Re: HINNOM EATS EVERYTHING
 
Thanks for another guide, Baalz! Your "But wait, there's more!" always sounds like music in my hears ^_^

Wow this nation seems to get a lot of inbuild magic diversity... even with the obvious difficulty that HINNOM EATS EVERYTHING I think you mentioned a bit somewhere ( http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif ), it could be a good place to start for new players like me, who really like to try every inspiring spell around. ^_^

This time you focused a lot on the Horrors I see, even in my actual SP game playing EA Mictlan I appreciate their potential.

calmon July 10th, 2008 10:50 AM

Re: HINNOM EATS EVERYTHING
 
Fine guide Baalz. While i find all new giant races very good i agree with you hinnom is especially good!

One of the main power of fomoria, hinnom, ashdod and gath is the possibility to cloud trapez/teleport the strong and blessable SCs. Combined with a good combination of magicpathes from your mages. You are able to play a moderate/good bless strategy and have enough points for good/VG scales. Non-Awake pretender and Fire Scale helps much.

chrispedersen July 10th, 2008 11:06 AM

Re: HINNOM EATS EVERYTHING
 
Actually, this guide isn't up to Baalz usual incredible standards. Probably because of an embarrassment of riches.

There's a few other tricks that Hinnom is uniquely capable of pulling off; makes the casting of some other (underused) spells useful.

hoo July 10th, 2008 11:24 AM

Re: HINNOM EATS EVERYTHING
 
I sense a disturbance: a mixture of disgust, sarcasm and more than a few tongue in cheek comments.

well written in communicating some concerns.

cleveland July 10th, 2008 11:48 AM

Re: HINNOM EATS EVERYTHING
 
And let's not forget that each point of PD gets you 1 Avvite Light Infantry & 1/2 Avvite Swordsman...you know, same as those starting troops that are "capable of taking out the vast majority of indies, from heavy cavalry to barbarians." PD=2 gets you $160 worth of defenders.

I'd like to formally reprimand Baalz for making this vastly overpowered nation truly unstoppable with yet another of his fantastic guides.

I'd also like to formally recommend giving all Hinnom commanders a Shattered Soul, for the sake of balance.

Tifone July 10th, 2008 11:52 AM

Re: HINNOM EATS EVERYTHING
 
Actually, I've just seen the thread about the Lords of Civilization.


http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/eek.gif


I mean:


http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/eek.gif


Well, this nation seems to have everything, strong units, strong PD, strong mages with almost all paths avaible, and 6(!) uniques all-immune full-slots fortune-bringing super-stealth-seducers 5-flying-mapmovement late game SC summons nobody else can even Wish for (and they have inbuilt 17 MR, Fear between +5 and +10, up to 14 points in various magic paths, and one is a very strong healer...).

Mmh.

Even being the n00best here around, I would dare saying, obviously with absolute respect for the overall work of the devs... *maybe* this is a little unbalanced? I think Baalz should have better done a guide about HOW TO SURVIVE IF YOU MEET HINNOM. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/Injured.gif (and probably the other new nations as well)

Baalz July 10th, 2008 12:04 PM

Re: HINNOM EATS EVERYTHING
 
Quote:

cleveland said:
And let's not forget that each point of PD gets you 1 Avvite Light Infantry & 1/2 Avvite Swordsman...you know, same as those starting troops that are "capable of taking out the vast majority of indies, from heavy cavalry to barbarians." PD=2 gets you $160 worth of defenders.

I'd like to formally reprimand Baalz for making this vastly overpowered nation truly unstoppable with yet another of his fantastic guides.

I'd also like to formally recommend giving all Hinnom commanders a Shattered Soul, for the sake of balance.

Doh! I totally meant to have a section on their PD. Using nothing but PD and your obscene income you can stop anything but the toughest raiders. The awesomeness of your PD is such that you hardly even need troops for defense, just moving some of your mages and SC to supplement your PD will be all you need for many situations.

Ps. I didn't want to go on at too much length about all the things they can do. I mean they're giants with practically every path available...what can't they do?

Jazzepi July 10th, 2008 12:17 PM

Re: HINNOM EATS EVERYTHING
 
Love.

Jazzepi

Amhazair July 10th, 2008 02:11 PM

Re: HINNOM EATS EVERYTHING
 
Edit: I apparently got things severely mixed up inside my brain. Disregard everything I now erase. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif


DonCorazon July 10th, 2008 02:30 PM

Re: HINNOM EATS EVERYTHING
 
Terrifying guide as usual. I always appreciate a glimpse into Baalz's sinister mind. I imagine the stock price of each nation Baalz' writes about shoots up after each guide.

Anyway, I have yet to even look at Hinnom in the game - never enough time for me - but having been the victim of horror spam now numerous times, I can say the description of it here makes it sound like with Hinnom you could just sit back and let the horrors do most of the work.

So I am always looking for better ways to counter Horror spam. To date it seems the best thing to protect your economy is to constantly have small, roving bands always on the move to recapture the spammed provinces before the enemy hidden scouts do.

I have not been the victim of mass horror spam on an SC - but would be curious to here thoughts on countering that as well...

Thanks for the guide.

Baalz July 10th, 2008 02:42 PM

Re: HINNOM EATS EVERYTHING
 
Well, as I'm in the middle of one horror spam campaign and gearing up for another maybe nobody should come up with counters? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Oh well. The most effective thing that has been used *against* me is to have a single cheapish mage with a couple bodyguards scripted to something appropriate sprinkled all around. The cost effectiveness of this varies a lot with the nation you're playing, but horrors have no elemental immunity, and even fall to poison so there's quite a few low level spells which will deal enough damage to stop them considering your mage will generally have several turns to blast them from short range. Even something silly like bonds of fire will hold them still for a round, chopping their defense and keeping them from life draining for long enough that the PD can whittle them down.

As to keeping them from eating your SCs...well, I've never seen anybody else do this so I don't know if anybody's come up with a counter yet (nobody's successfully countered me yet). Nothing obvious comes to mind other than keeping a significant number of bodyguards around...which rather defeats the purpose of a SC.

Reverend Zombie July 10th, 2008 02:43 PM

Lesser Horrors....really?
 
I guess I've just been unlucky/unwise, but I've never had a lesser horror successfully beat ANY PD...

What's the upward limit on PD level that you've found a lesser horror can solo?

chrispedersen July 10th, 2008 02:45 PM

Re: HINNOM EATS EVERYTHING
 
Nah; Hinnom can do a horror spam, but you're far more likely to be trampled under the treads of his units in the early or mid game.

I think Baalz is right on several points; the most piquant of which is: sure you can summon LoC. But the odds are you won't GET to. And you certainly won't *need* to.

DonCorazon July 10th, 2008 02:50 PM

Re: HINNOM EATS EVERYTHING
 
Yeah, I have used LA TC Masters of the Way with frozen heart to cut down on horror spam but it never feels that cost effective even though they are only 100GP. Even worse using Ri with TNN to stop the burninator's minions.

MaxWilson July 10th, 2008 02:59 PM

Re: HINNOM EATS EVERYTHING
 
Quote:

Baalz said:
As to keeping them from eating your SCs...well, I've never seen anybody else do this so I don't know if anybody's come up with a counter yet (nobody's successfully countered me yet). Nothing obvious comes to mind other than keeping a significant number of bodyguards around...which rather defeats the purpose of a SC.

Two things come to mind: 1.) The normal remote-ritual counters like Dome of Air. Not likely to be useful in all cases but will let him hold ground once he's taken it. 2.) In what sense do PD not make good bodyguards? I should think 10 PD, with the SC right in the middle of them, would break up the horror pack enough to significantly increase the number of horrors needed.

-Max

Baalz July 10th, 2008 03:11 PM

Re: HINNOM EATS EVERYTHING
 
Oh, I also wanted to respond to a couple people asking me why I didn't even mention a real blessing. Earth or Nature blessings would be the classical blessings to use for giants, and to be sure they're far from worthless. Thing is, how do you leverage them to make them worthwhile for the opportunity cost of chopping your scales back? The Ba'als certainly don't need the help - a blessing would be a mild bonus on top of all the capability you already have. So, for a blessing we're really talking about the Rephaite Warriors and the question is are they, with a blessing, enough better than your other options to justify lesser scales to get a bless. Your other option is pretty much the Dawn Guard who kicks teh Rephaite's butt on a gold for gold basis.

Ignoring upkeep and production you get 3 Dawn Guard for each Rephaite. The Dawn Guard are size 3 with a defense of 16 and a protection of 13, making them the flat out most survivable giant infantry in the game for the cost (they win handily 1:1 vs Jotun Hirdmen). 3 of them have 75 hitpoints compared to the Rephaite's 55 so they've just got all kinds of advantages in staying power over the Rephaite in most situations. On offense, the Rephaite gets one magic attack and one non-magic, both dealing good damage, whereas 3 Dawn Guard get three magic attacks dealing good damage.

So, what bless makes sense to sacrifice any of your scales for?

Baalz July 10th, 2008 03:16 PM

Re: HINNOM EATS EVERYTHING
 
Quote:

MaxWilson said:
Quote:

Baalz said:
As to keeping them from eating your SCs...well, I've never seen anybody else do this so I don't know if anybody's come up with a counter yet (nobody's successfully countered me yet). Nothing obvious comes to mind other than keeping a significant number of bodyguards around...which rather defeats the purpose of a SC.

Two things come to mind: 1.) The normal remote-ritual counters like Dome of Air. Not likely to be useful in all cases but will let him hold ground once he's taken it. 2.) In what sense do PD not make good bodyguards? I should think 10 PD, with the SC right in the middle of them, would break up the horror pack enough to significantly increase the number of horrors needed.

-Max

Horrors rout the PD in the first couple turns, which routs the SC. Depends on the PD of course...

Tifone July 10th, 2008 03:19 PM

Re: HINNOM EATS EVERYTHING
 
@ Reverend Zombie,

as I said, I'm trying the potential of Horrors in my actual SP game using Mictlan. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Maybe it isn't a very worthy example but trying to soften a Marverni army of about 80 mixed units + a "quite well organized" PD sending a lesser horror to the enemy province before my actual army of blessed Jaguar Warriors (they wouldn't have needed that help anyway), with my surprise the lesser horror was able to kill some of them and to rout everybody - so my army had only to fight the few units that were arriving for their reinforcement.

It isn't a great example, Marverni's PD is IMHO quite poor and their army did not have good mages, but as you asked which PD a lesser Horror was able to defeat, well this is one. ^_^

calmon July 10th, 2008 03:27 PM

Re: HINNOM EATS EVERYTHING
 
A moderate bless strategy without destroying the scales is taking an imprissoned E9 Cyclop. Go for O3S2F3G3L3M1 and dom 7. Just conquer some surrounding provinces and you've enough resources. Early game isn't significant slower because of sloth and later you don't miss production.

Baalz July 10th, 2008 03:38 PM

Re: HINNOM EATS EVERYTHING
 
Quote:

calmon said:
A moderate bless strategy without destroying the scales is taking an imprissoned E9 Cyclop. Go for O3S2F3G3L3M1 and dom 7. Just conquer some surrounding provinces and you've enough resources. Early game isn't significant slower because of sloth and later you don't miss production.

Right, but my question is does the earth bless gain you more than my suggestion of a blood fountain with B7 (just a brazen vessel for Grigori), a dominion of 9, and production 3? You're giving up 2 levels of dominion, 10% of your income and the easy Grigory/Demon lords, and I maintain that you're not noticeably better at expanding or fighting other nations.

chrispedersen July 10th, 2008 06:01 PM

Re: HINNOM EATS EVERYTHING
 
Baalz is right. Hinnom doesn't need a bless strategy. With an awake pretender, you can take two provinces the *first* turn - and every turn there after - which is worth way more than an earth bless.

I disagree with him on DawnGuards. Sure, they're great units. I just like the Size 6 tramplers better. And since the tramplers have decent attacks, defense, morale and mr - they eat elephants for breakfast.

Oh: and I don't know if this has been discussed or not. But tramplers seem to ignore etherealness, luck, (insert spell of choice).

I particularly like hasting them.....

calmon July 10th, 2008 06:37 PM

Re: HINNOM EATS EVERYTHING
 
I really like the earth bless. Its also an option to cast forge of the ancient. On the other side a boosted Ba'al does the same here. Maybe some blood makes more sence for hinnom.

@chrispedersen
i don't think a awake pretender is good for any giant race. They have one of the best early game and don't need more boosts.

sector24 July 10th, 2008 07:13 PM

Re: HINNOM EATS EVERYTHING
 
Great guide! Although, I do have 2 questions/comments.

1) You choose a blood fountain designed to cast LoC, but you later explain how it's unlikely that you even need it. Perhaps another pretender would be more useful, or do you use the blood fountain for something else?

2) Being first in every score graph makes you a prime target for getting ganged up on. Is Hinnom so powerful that you can ignore this or do you have to use Ermorian silver-tongued diplomacy, or do you have to kind of curb your expansion at some point to appear less powerful than you are?

Renojustin July 10th, 2008 07:16 PM

Re: HINNOM EATS EVERYTHING
 
From now on Baalz must write a secondary guide for every nation he has a guide for, entitled "How To Fight X."

Baalz July 10th, 2008 07:46 PM

Re: HINNOM EATS EVERYTHING
 
Oh, I make a bit of exaggeration for humor's sake. You're not actually going to be able to dominate everyone every time you play and win before the endgame. Hinnom's initial expansion is very, very good, but it's not really that much better than any of several nations who have very rapid early expansion. I think Hinnom will be a nation that people gang up on, just like LA Ermor and LA R'yleh - they're very strong early on but unstoppable if left alone. You'll need to play similarly.

Taqwus July 10th, 2008 08:19 PM

Re: HINNOM EATS EVERYTHING
 
...and you'll want to establish a solid advantage before your giants eat all your taxpayers. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

Tifone July 10th, 2008 09:06 PM

Re: HINNOM EATS EVERYTHING
 
So as far as I understood, the main "danger" for this nation you people talked about, is from alliances of enemies - which will hopefully stop its GREAT early power in order to prevent their UNSTOPPABLE (quoting) late power?

wowz http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/eek.gif

Lingchih July 10th, 2008 10:21 PM

Re: HINNOM EATS EVERYTHING
 
This makes me wonder even more how in the heck Hinnom got stomped in the Kingmaker early game by Lanka.

Sombre July 10th, 2008 10:28 PM

Re: HINNOM EATS EVERYTHING
 
Well in fairness Lanka is also a powerhouse and any nation can be tricky to do well with if you are new to it/mp in general.

Lingchih July 10th, 2008 10:34 PM

Re: HINNOM EATS EVERYTHING
 
Yes, it was a newb playing them I believe. He built all chariots and no giants.

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif

Baalz July 10th, 2008 11:13 PM

Re: HINNOM EATS EVERYTHING
 
*sigh* and Hinnom, sight unseen was my original first choice for kingmaker. Instead I somehow got talked into taking MA Oceana. There's a swing for you...;)

DonCorazon July 11th, 2008 12:40 AM

Re: HINNOM EATS EVERYTHING
 
if it makes you feel better - i lost 3 rolloffs in Kingmaker: LA TC, then Ashdod, then Gath.

Thus I ended up as enraged Utgard.

Amhazair July 11th, 2008 03:42 AM

Re: HINNOM EATS EVERYTHING
 
Quote:

sector24 said:
1) You choose a blood fountain designed to cast LoC, but you later explain how it's unlikely that you even need it. Perhaps another pretender would be more useful, or do you use the blood fountain for something else?


Well, his first consideration when choosing a pretender was to have massive scales. The two cheapest chassis to do this are the oracle and the blood fountain. It's then a choice whether you want teleporting master enslave action, which your national mages can pull off by themselves too (with some effort) or bloody blood summoning.

WraithLord July 11th, 2008 03:48 AM

Re: HINNOM EATS EVERYTHING
 
Awesome guide. I have tested Hinom in SP and came with close conclusions but your guide covered all the points I've misses, which is great http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

I've taken a W9, E4 bless with dragon and good scales, the bless makes Rephaim and Melqart expand like crazy.

I've used regular scouts/commanders for blood hunting and it worked well but I think using three Kohens with SDR will yield many more slaves.

Ba'al is ridiculous, I couldn't come up with enough ways to use them.

Your suggestion of using lesser horrors is very useful.

I think 1v1 this nation is top tier in game if not first place. How it would stand in MP is totally another issue though. I'm against changing something drastic in order to balance them, if anything the dawn guards could be made capitol only or the nation can get a 10-15% price increase across the board.

Ming July 11th, 2008 05:35 AM

Re: HINNOM EATS EVERYTHING
 
WraithLord,

If you make the dawn guards capital only, the optimal strategy for the nation becomes less complex. The power of the dawn guards make it possible to deviate from taking P3.

WraithLord July 11th, 2008 06:20 AM

Re: HINNOM EATS EVERYTHING
 
I'm afraid I'm not quite following. Dawn guards are resource intensive (in absolute terms - require 30 or 35 resources), so how come their power makes it possible to deviate from P3?- they practically beg for high production.

Another idea to reduce their strength is not allow recruiting of Ammi w/o labs.

Tifone July 11th, 2008 06:48 AM

Re: HINNOM EATS EVERYTHING
 
Mmh, Ammis not needing a lab to be recruited fits the rules perfectly i think... It's because they just have random picks right?

Ming July 11th, 2008 06:52 AM

Re: HINNOM EATS EVERYTHING
 
My reasoning is as follows:

IMHO the key advantage of P3 is to allow you to recruit as many capital-only sacreds as possible as you will very soon find that you'll run out of funds much faster than resources as you expand and build new castles. If one take a lesser production scale, one will end up with less of those awsome capital sacreds but more doom guards (recruited outside of the capital). That is not necessary a poor trade-off if the extra design points can be put to good use - partly because one will run out of supplies very quickly (not to mention pop loss) if one concentrate on the capital only sacreds.

WraithLord July 11th, 2008 07:01 AM

Re: HINNOM EATS EVERYTHING
 
@Ming, thanks for elaborating. I find your reasoning to make perfect sense hence I agree making dawn guards capital only is not preferable for balance purposes.

@Tifone, it does fit the rules.

I think maybe a possible balancing act, besides raising price across the board is to make this nation's temples cost more, maybe 50% more, maybe even a thematic reason for that could be found.

Tifone July 11th, 2008 07:20 AM

Re: HINNOM EATS EVERYTHING
 
Mmh, personally (and it could be weird I admit http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif ) I'd prefer something new and strange to balance Hinnom (of course if the devs decide it should be done), something like the Shattered Soul trait was for tartarians.

Hinnom already has the distinctive trait Baalz talked about http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif but it seems it isn't decisive to balance the great strength this nation has in... well, possibly almost any field. ^^

As I always say I wouldn't like this game to became PERFECTLY balanced - it would be boring as hell - but with proper use this nation seems able to steamroll almost everything ^^ My suggestion of a "Guide" or at least some tips about which weaknesses one could exploit (in the positive meaning) to beat Hinnom was not entirely ironic http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Ming July 11th, 2008 07:22 AM

Re: HINNOM EATS EVERYTHING
 
Hinnom is NOT necessarily an easy nation to maximize its potential, precisely because it has so many awesome ways of overcominging its enemy. However, one doesn't need to unlock its full potential to do well with Hinnom. Even a simple strategy will work. I like Hinnom's complexity but dislike its being so powerful.

I think one way of reducing the power of Hinnom without changing its complexity is to drastically weakens its PD. It might be thematic too. A population that needs to sacrifice their own to pacify their rulers would need a lot of persuation to stand up and fight for them when they are not around.

Ming July 11th, 2008 07:47 AM

Re: HINNOM EATS EVERYTHING
 
Tifone,

High defense units could cause Hinnom some problems, especially since the Hinnom chariot is not as awesome as its stat might suggest. However, it is more an annoyance as opposed to a glaring weakness as Hinnom's sacreds have two attacks and Dawn Guards' doom sword provides an attack bonus.

The main weakness IMHO is that there are various pitfalls that a careless Hinnom player could fall into and shoot their own foot. In the hands of a good player Hinnom is difficult to counter. At least I have not found one yet (but I am working on it http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif)

Xietor July 11th, 2008 07:54 AM

Re: HINNOM EATS EVERYTHING
 
They were one of the 1st races to die in kingmaker. The problem with nations that are tougher than others is they better be tough enough to fight uphill(2 v 1).

Ming July 11th, 2008 08:07 AM

Re: HINNOM EATS EVERYTHING
 
Xietor,

I agree that 2 vs 1 is a VERY powerful way of nerfing a strong nation. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Baalz July 11th, 2008 10:52 AM

Re: HINNOM EATS EVERYTHING
 
In case anyone is curious, I played a duel with QM yesterday, Hinnom vs Niefelheim. I used the build and strategy laid out here, which I think is pretty much a worst case scenario for Hinnom (well, anybody really) outside of being ganged up on. A good scales build optimized for long term potential set upon by a dual blessed Niefelheim at the hands of a very good player with nothing else to focus on. How many nations can do anything in such a situation other than rolling over and showing their belly?

I lost, but it was quite a squeaker and I don't think either of us would be sure which way it'd go if we did it again. Even with being rushed by Niefelheim in year one with heavy pressure kept up the whole game I managed to get up 5 castles (one was a freebie with the Castle Arcanum magic site) and had a reasonable chance of pushing back for a win until I conceded in the last half of year 3. Again, how many nations can you name that could do that well in this situation? As QM put it with only a little tongue in cheek, Hinnom is probably overpowered merely because they didn't insta-collapse in that situation.

Anyway, my conclusion is that in Hinnom you've got a nation that's in the same league as the very best early game nations - which steadily gets more powerful as the game goes on. I never got to lay any of the really nasty stuff in this guide down, being heavily raided so early I couldn't get a blood economy going, having no access to cold resistance my SCs were neutered, and blood stones don't really help much in such a game...

MaxWilson July 11th, 2008 12:37 PM

Re: HINNOM EATS EVERYTHING
 
Quote:

Tifone said:
As I always say I wouldn't like this game to became PERFECTLY balanced - it would be boring as hell - but with proper use this nation seems able to steamroll almost everything ^^ My suggestion of a "Guide" or at least some tips about which weaknesses one could exploit (in the positive meaning) to beat Hinnom was not entirely ironic http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Isn't "How To Beat Hinnom With X" going to be heavily derivative of the Nation X guide? From Baalz' guide, I get that Hinnom has great expansion and good blood magic, with good Astral magic for endgame strats. Lots of their strength is the carryover from a good early game combined with the ability to do something with that strength later on (better than, say, MA Oceania or MA Man). They do have fairly weak mages--Baalz suggests Hellpower for getting around that and it's a good suggestion--and Dawn Guards are far from the only excellent recruitable unit, but if you want to beat someone playing Hinnom the way Baalz suggests you're going to need to leverage your own strengths instead of merely exploiting Hinnom's theoretical weaknesses.

Let's put it this way: Lanka and Mictlan can both use the Horror-spam tactic to kill SCs, and they can do it BETTER than Hinnom because they're better at blood-hunting. Does that make Lanka unstoppable? <font color="red"> Edit: er, wait. No they can't. I'm AFG but I think Send Lesser Horror requires S as well as B. If so the Send Lesser Horror tactic would be restricted to Bogarus, Abysia, and maybe a few others. (Possibly an Abysia/Lanka alliance?) Anyway, a lot harder than I thought.</font>

-Max

MaxWilson July 11th, 2008 01:00 PM

Re: HINNOM EATS EVERYTHING
 
Quote:

Baalz said:
In case anyone is curious, I played a duel with QM yesterday, Hinnom vs Niefelheim. I used the build and strategy laid out here, which I think is pretty much a worst case scenario for Hinnom (well, anybody really) outside of being ganged up on. A good scales build optimized for long term potential set upon by a dual blessed Niefelheim at the hands of a very good player with nothing else to focus on. How many nations can do anything in such a situation other than rolling over and showing their belly?

Hmmm, interesting. Hinnom's heat preference undoubtedly helped hold off Niefelheim because all their sacreds are cold-powered--a different early-game power like Helheim might have fared better. And, Hinnom still lost.

Nevertheless, an interesting datum.

-Max

MaxWilson July 11th, 2008 02:11 PM

Re: HINNOM EATS EVERYTHING
 
Quote:

Ming said:
I think one way of reducing the power of Hinnom without changing its complexity is to drastically weakens its PD. It might be thematic too. A population that needs to sacrifice their own to pacify their rulers would need a lot of persuation to stand up and fight for them when they are not around.

It might also be a good idea to reexamine the resource cost of Dawn Blades and/or the gcost of Dawn Guards w/rt similar units of other nations. The thing that comes to mind there is def 16 / base defense 13. I suspect they're pretty okay (Kala-Mukhas cost 65 and are sacred) but it's worth looking at, since I believe KO assigns unit abilities before gcost/rcost.

-Max

Ming July 11th, 2008 02:51 PM

Re: HINNOM EATS EVERYTHING
 
I just took a look at Hinnom vs. Niefel (inspired by Baalz's post). What struck me immediately is that Hinnom's starting army is roughly twice as strong (or at least would have cost about twice as much to recruit) as Niefel's! No wonder I have always found it worthwhile to gamble and sent Hinnom's starting army out on turn one (I use normal indie setting)! This is a very great advantage. Second, my inspection confirmed my suspicion that Hinnom's units do not seem to be particularly underpriced.

Based on the above I think

1. cutting Hinnom's starting army by half and

2. replacing its PD by 1 Horite per point from 1-19 and 0.5 Horite Champ + 0.5 Horite Hunter per point from 20+, as well as giving Qedesim as its additional leader at 20 instead of Kohen (Horites don't see much action otherwise as they are very expensive goldwise).

should be sufficient to cutting Hinnom down to size without changing its dynamics very much.


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