The Ghost King
 

I have mixed feelings on this pretender and want to know how others use him.

He seems to have many options available to him, and he is one of my favorites. However I'm just no quite sure he is ever the _best_ choice.

For one, he can SC immediately, but in the end he is kind of fragile, and depends upon a layer of defenses that filter out damage through many chances (Awe -> Ethereal -> Air Shield -> Luck -> whatever else). If any of these defenses become cancelled (high moral, magic weapons, ect.) he is fuct. Even with everything in place and working, with a lucky hit (Cavalry charge double damage, maybe two in one turn; low chances but certainly possible) he is dead.

For two, he is able to provide good access to magic. he has some base Death magic and 20 points to open other paths.

Lastly, he is kind of expensive (at 120 points I think, plus the points to have dom 9/10)

Considering all these points, this guy is just way risky. He is used because he can SC, yet also can provide magic power and diversity. However, as an SC he is fragile and can die or get the feebleminded affliction; making his magic worthless. But for him to really be worthwhile you need both an SC and magic diversity from him, but on this chassis those two things just don't combine well.

Another option is to have him asleep. However then his SC ability is a little less worthwhile; as the chief attraction of an SC pretender is quick early expansion.

How do other people build this guy? Dom 9/10 is a given. But what about magic paths?

What do others go for on Awakening? Awake but wait to research some spells and/or equip him? Awake and use immediately, but maybe using him for the least risky indies until he gets equipped and access to some buffs. Asleep so that when he wakes up you have equipment for him?

How do people equip him?

Is he really worth it considering his riskyness and what other choices are available? With the right luck, I think he is probably the best pretender available. But he is risky, and useless if the wrong things happen, or you face the wrong nations (anybody with recruitables with magic weapons, lots of missiles, or that can undead spam). And with those weaknesses, he won't be able to face many of the indie provinces. It's even feasible that your home province will be surrounded by indies that he can't safely take on. You're also typically going to have bad scales if you take him (unless you take him asleep; but then SC aspect is worth less), so you really need him to be able to give 100% through the whole game. But there are enough things with enough chance of happening that can really clip this guys wings, so that he won't often work out.

Re: The Ghost King
 

I never use him. He is useful, but too fragile in my book. I'll stick with a Prince of Death.

Re: The Ghost King
 

Never use.

Re: The Ghost King
 

I have tried this guy in SP a few times because I heard he could be pretty good.

I think the appeal is that he starts out with stealthy, ethereal and undead (so encumberance doesn't come into play when actually meeleing) with full slots. So you can use slots for things other than ethereal. I can't remember what kind of scales I had but I went awake with 9 or 10 dom and 2 air (for air shield, mistform, and mirror image), 1 earth for ironskin, and then a few more points in death as filler.

I wasn't too impressed. Sometimes I could attack blindly on turn 1 and be fine other times he got owned hard. I'm sure he shines a bit more with proper equipment or perhaps I didn't build him very well. That being said, I think I may give him a try again as he seems somewhat viable.

Re: The Ghost King
 

I've heard before now that he's considered powerful.

Re: The Ghost King
 

The GK is alluring but having tried it a few times, I'm not impressed. To me he seems to be jack of all trades but master of none. For awake SC 35hp and low starting dominion combined with high chassis cost just doesnt cut it. For spellcasting master lich is better, for example.

Re: The Ghost King
 

He was my favorite in dom II, but he was nerfed. Unfairly nerfed KO!

Heh. After his nerf I have never used him.

I will add I played dom II mp games on another forum-not this one. And we had funny "house" rules. One of the house rules was no immortal pretenders(in response to the Queen most likely before her nerf).

So before the nerf to the Ghost King, and removing the immortal undeads from the selection process, the Ghost King was one of the best Pretenders to take for a rainbow mage.

I cannot even recall what all was done to him. His cost was raised, his dominion lowered, and I think something else as well.

Re: The Ghost King
 

About every time I start a new game and am looking at pretender design there comes a moment when I think: "Hmm... and what if I'd use a ghost king instead" after which I try out some builds, find out I don't have enough points to make it all work, and move on. I have yet to use one in MP.

I do believe they can be very powerful with LA Ermor (never having played LA Ermor myself, so it's just conjesture) as they have the design points to burn, and can greatly benefit from both the magical diversity, and the SC ability. Perhaps some other nation without too much need for great scales,or for a big bless can also make good use of him, but none springs to mind atm.

Re: The Ghost King
 

I'm mostly new to MP, so take this with a grain of salt. However, in one of my current games he is doing relatively fine. I made him asleep, with Dom 9, relatively good scales (I am squemish in respect to them; also see below) and 2 magic paths at 4, with no incerase in Death path (namely, Water & Earth for Helheim - the first to increase diversity & for Quickening, the second for blessing their sacred mages). Then I made a Construction my first research priority, which allowed me to make Hammer early on & make some equipment before my King awakened. After that I used him to quicken expansion, using most money on mages. He didn't take a weapon until I got a Construction 4, but expanded fine even before that. And after Construction 4 I switched to other paths. He suffered a pair of afflictions, but remains useful - even after I discovered a sight granting me some Water mages.
Maybe I should have given him Nature instead - to get regeneration, but I reasoned that Nature mages are relatively common to find & Astral... well, it brings a risk of Magic Dules.
Will someone say where I was wrong? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif Currently I think he remains relatively solid, but should be taken asleep.

Re: The Ghost King
 

I use him fairly often in solo play when he fits the nation. I like that he generates ghosts. He and the ghosts can be quite a nice stealthy army. Especially if you can provide other stealths (such as archers) for backup.

Re: The Ghost King
 

how does the generating ghost thing work.. I never used him and I wonder how much you usually get

Re: The Ghost King
 

it think it's one ghost a turn when you're in really strong dominion (around 5 or 6+).

nothing real significant, but a nice touch I suppose, and presents another option to the Ghost King. that's why he's attractive to begin with, he has so many options. Thing is I just don't know if all the options are worth the price, and they don't combine well at any rate (like I said, a rainbow pretender who dies are gets feebleminded because you use him as an SC too isn't anygood as a rainbow any longer).

Re: The Ghost King
 

Never used him other than a couple SP runs (the kind where you play about 10 turns in 10 minutes to see how something works). He always seemed to get smacked by indie PD / priests. Could have been bad luck but I got the sense he was too fragile to be an SC, too expensive to be a RB, and a waste to be a sleeper/Bless. I'd never use him in MP.

Re: The Ghost King
 

Yes, I see mostly 1 ghost/turn & no in weakish Dominion. I agree he's no blesser - I used it as a side effect of Rainbow.
As for sinergy - strong Dominion helps both for SC and ghost production; said ghosts can help him with stronger independents while he has no great equipment or with initial wars; he also produces them while researching/casting rituals; Rainbowing helps with research, diversification, blesses - and combat! He may be suboptimal, but he can be built to good effects which tie with each other well, as I see.
By the way, when I used him as SC in trial run, I used independents strength at 7 - he just needs a combination of equipment & existing Dominion which is reachable when he is asleep. He just isn't viable awake from my point of view, and making him imprisoned defeats his purpose - though he isn't so much more costly than Master Lich, by the way... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: The Ghost King
 

I'm probably a suboptimal player, but I'm often looking for a number of things from my pretender, based on the nation. Some diversification in magic, at least enough for boosters in paths my mages have but can't boost, for hammers and for access to death. If the nation has decent troops I'm willing to forgo the starting SC, but unless it's got recruitable thugs it's nice to have a pretender who's capable of playing that role until the better summons are reached.

If the Ghost King can give me my desired magic cheaper than other SC chassis I'll use him. Usually sleeping for the points and so he has some gear when he wakes up.

Re: The Ghost King
 

I think he has a niche, though it is a pretty small one. I think I'd likely give him a serious look for the monkey nations, especially Bandar Log and Patala. They have pretty crappy sacreds out of the box, starting E income to pound him out some armor quickly, good S access so you don't have to give him a magic duel Achilles Heel, and they benefit from taking air, which you'll want for air shield for early expansion (it helps a lot since arrows > awe) and they don't have D to start, which he also has. They also don't need production, which frees up points to play with.

A GK can SC out the gate with air shield and awe, since his high defense + eth makes him pretty resilient to normal melee attacks. You'll get an unlucky hit eventually, but you have to hope that'll come after you can get some armor on him or some buffs up...ironskin is a life saver. Later on in the game he becomes pretty effective with cloud trapeze and stealth to be a spot-killer, and he'll come in with a ton of extra HP to those encounters since you can port straight out of your cap or other high-dominion location.

Re: The Ghost King
 

ghostking won't give magic cheap since he has lots of other options..

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Ghost King and Vampire Queen used to be faves of mine back in Dom 2, but don't use them anymore.

Re: The Ghost King
 

IMG, I've made VampireQueen #gcost 110 (that is, cost 110 design points), ethereal, and D2B2 for starting paths. I'm still not tempted to use her but it ought to help out any AIs which choose to take her (so far I haven't encountered one). It's probably a little underpriced (I should drop it back down to D1B2 per vanilla) but Blood is a pretty weak path for SCs and she's an SC, so for now I'm leaving it.

-Max

Re: The Ghost King
 

Ghost King is incredible .. that's my opinion. That being said, I rarely use him. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

I love the combo SCs / rainbow pretender choices such as GK and the Nagas. They are perhaps a tad pricey, but they do everything you want them to do. You can get a decent bless with him, too, by taking maybe 3 level 4 paths. GK does it all, but nothing extremely well, maybe.

Re: The Ghost King
 

It seems to me that the Ghost King is more suited for nations with no or weak bless options.

Re: The Ghost King
 

As I've already said I used him for Helheim which is usually considered a bless nation... I agree that if you want a bless rush strategy, you should use someone else - someone with more than one starting path, especially with high starting path(s).

Re: The Ghost King
 

I think in general if you want an SC there are better choices than the GK. And if you want a Rainbow or artillery support mage Pretender there are better choices than the GK.

That really leaves just those nations that need an SC but also needs magic diversity on their pretender. Jomon fits the bill here for one. They completely lack Death (gems or paths on mages) and need it for most of their summons. They also need other paths to recruit some of their better summons (Fire & Death for Dai Onis for example). They also need an SC to make up for their poor starting army and high resource costing troops.

A GK works quite well for them. They don't really benefit much from a bless (none massable sacreds and mages not sacred) and their starting army can support the GK to make up for the fact he isn't top draw in the SC department.

Jomon also can't get a Prince of Death which would otherwise be a better choice. And Lichs or Master Lichs won't really handle the SC/army support side earlier enough to be viable.

So I think he is a niche pick at best in mp. Jomon being one power that can benefit. As the combination of SC, then site searcher, then summoner/forger works well for them. In sp of course his flexibility makes him a more reasonable choice.

Re: The Ghost King
 

This is the real reason to opt for GK. You dont have the option to get PoD :p

Re: The Ghost King
 

The real reason is that he is much more thematic for many nations! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/cool.gif While you surely can make PoD with, say, Growth 3, it would be complete crap from style point of view!

Re: The Ghost King
 

Yeah, but Growth 3 Ghost King doesn't make a lot more sense.

Re: The Ghost King
 

The Ghost King is a nice choice for a nation that doesn't need a strong bless, could use an awake SC, needs magic diversity, and benefits from high dominion. A nation like MA Ulm.

Some modest magic (Air2 for Mistform &amp; Cloud Trapeeze, N2 for Personal Regeneration &amp; Resist Elements, E1 for Ironskin &amp; Iron Will, S1 for Personal Luck<font color="brown"> (EDIT: as triqui points out, this makes him vulnerable to Astral Duels...better to skip the Astral &amp; forge him some luck instead, he's got the slots) </font> , W1 for Quicken Self, D3 for an eventual Soul Vortex) and Dom10 for Awe are yours for just Drain3, Cold2.

Forge a Black Steel plate on turn 1, equip &amp; send him to solo weak indies on turn 2...Alt1 [<font color="brown">(Air Shield)(Barkskin)</font>Attack Closest] takes all but unlucky Heavy Cav.

Alt3 [(Mistform)(Ironskin)<font color="brown">(Quicken Self) </font> Attack Closest] <font color="brown"> still </font>beats any elephant rush. Relegate him to site searching detail when your finished expanding, Cloud Trapeeze him for counter-raiding.

Dom10 spreads that Ulm-friendly dominion fast: Drain3 means your Ulmish knuckleheads actually survive the occasional mind burn, &amp; Cold2 amplifies his frost aura.

With an awake SC, you can divert your funds to making those beautiful guardians to counter the bless-rushers.

One-shot ANWSDE site searching + cheap Ulmish forging rates + full slots = long-term usefulness.

Works well for quite a few other nations too, but MA Ulm makes for a nice example. <font color="brown"> Most other nations will need to wait until turn 2 to forge the Black Steel Plate, so just have him research Alteration on turn 1. </font>

Re: The Ghost King
 

The ability to forge a decent armor on the first turn does indeed make the ghost king far more appetizing. Apart from Ulm I think early and mid Agartha can do that. Can't think of any others off the top of my head.

Re: The Ghost King
 

Sure. And a growth 3 Ghost king makes a lot of sense because.... err... wait...Oh. It doesnt.

Re: The Ghost King
 

This one sounds much more convincing. Although i would not give a pretender S1. Either give him a strong astral score to avoid magic duels, or give him none. Indi lizard shaman or crystal sorceress killing pretenders are a no-no.

Re: The Ghost King
 

Good point. Better to forge him some luck, as he already comes with Etherealness.

True, but many nations have natural gem incomes of &gt;=3E (or =2E,&gt;=1S for alchemy) and can therefore forge on turn 2. So he researches Alterartion on turn1, and is smashing indies on turn 3. What do you think?

Re: The Ghost King
 

Possible, yes, but it does cost you a turn as opposed to regular SC gods. Which brings us back to the original point of being weaker than other gods at any one task, and at what point does his versatility make up for it?

Re: The Ghost King
 

His versatility makes up for it about the time you cloud trapeze him on top of one of your opponent's armies and wipe it off the face of the earth. That's worth a 1-turn loss in expansion. The cyclops and wyrm generally don't end up with that kind of mobility. =)

I actually usually manage to use him to solo indies naked by choosing the weak provinces and have my national scout meet him with some armor a few turns later instead of losing a turn if I can't forge on turn 1. This will result in the occasional unlucky hit, but them's the breaks.

I'd also recommend that you take at least E2 with a GK to pick up summon earth power and then invulnerability (reinvig is important to get rid of the fatigue you take while buffing, strive to keep your fatigue score under 30 when engaged), E1 is a huge waste given how few points it takes for the much better E2. Nature is also not great to take in small quantities because the fatigue hit for personal regen is pretty huge (40 points!) which will generally get you killed.

Re: The Ghost King
 

Agree with Cleveland and Micah. Though I would prefer him asleep and pick up speed after Construction or Alteration is researched (but just maybe Black Steel Plate could be enough at the start).
Considering paths I would avoid Astral unless there's absolutely no other way to get it... but usually there is. Nature may be good but will require N4, which would also give bless (if your sacreds would benefit from such) + the above-mentioned E2+. What is beautiful he can actually pull that off if asleep.
I also agree that Cold Dominion gives him an edge - so he can be better for nations which are Cold-preferring. But this is a minor consideration.
Considering a Growth - it's easy! You just say that he's an ancient Druid leader or former sacrificial Fertility king! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif