Conceptual Balance 1.3, updated documentation
 

*Magic scale reset to base game.

*Domes made cheaper and easier to cast.

*More national summons covered.

*Fire, cold, shadow and arcane bolt improved.

*Many titans made cheaper or added abilities.

*Income from productivity scale improved.

*Fire shield added to solar disc.

*Dragon breath improved.

*Documentation finally updated.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.3, updated documentat
 

Segmented version.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.3, updated documentat
 

Great! Thanks for the new version.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.3, updated documentat
 

Thanks for the new version. Time for me to finally check this thing out, I think. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.3, updated documentat
 

I know the feeling. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif It's weird and nothing's quite like you remember it. There are some cool changes, though. Check out Lord of War, I really liked the CB version.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.3, updated documentat
 

hm i dislike it that you changed the magic scales to vanilla http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif but ill check it out, thx for the work

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.3, updated documentat
 

Tremendous scope to this mod, so no one is going to agree with everything.

I actually like the return to the vanilla magic scales.

Perhaps my favorite modification is :

"*Touch of madness and rage now cost a gem, to limit unintended AI casting."

They say imitation is the highest form of flattery. I may use something like this in my next mp game.

Baffled by the reduced cost to crumble. I use it frequently in mp already, as endgames on 300 province map are littered with castles. I like the reduced cost, as it is an effective counter to what i see as a major issue to large games after turn 50 or so. But if the reduced cost is because players do not use it enough, I use it as much as possible already.

Baffled by the reduced cost for Leprosy. It is also extremely devastating spell that i tend to use a lot with penetration items against certain nations. Sometimes diseasing an army is better than killing it as he has to keep paying upkeep for a force that cannot fight as well.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.3, updated documentat
 

Pretty sure rage and touch of madness were changed to cost a gem a version or two back.

The biggest changes this time around are to pretenders. I was talking about some of them with qm yesterday and it's amazing how the certain pretenders were given price cuts AND substantial boosts and only now seem worth the cost.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.3, updated documentat
 

It has been awhile since I looked at CBM, so the gem cost for Touch of madness may have escaped my notice before.

The Pretenders are very interesting. And this part of the mod is actually what I am considering using in my future mp games, though I need to look at each one carefully which i have not yet done.

The only Pretender(at 1st blush) I strongly disagree with is the Mater Lich, who is widely used at the vanilla cost. Why reduce the cost of pretenders that are widely used already? If a pretender is widely used at the higher cost, then a significant part of the mp community think the pretender is worth that cost.

I play the larger mp games, and perhaps the ML is not used as much in the blitz games. But I would not put too much emphasis on what occurs in a blitz setting.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.3, updated documentat
 

Xietor:

You should be happy then that your favourite pretender got improved. Mine got more expensive :/

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.3, updated documentat
 

Master Lich is a good pretender, and i have used him in 2 of my past 6 mp games. Also used the Lich and the Mother of Serpents. Mother of Serpents got reduced as well. I used the Immortal shin pretender in one, but more as a novelty. i do not think the Shin. unique hero is worth the cost.

In the 6th I used the Gorgon, whose price doubled. But I definitely understand the Gorgon being raised, though it is a shame since it is the signature Pangaea Pretender. But the Gorgon is not Pangaea only(:

Tyrant's favorite pretender IS the Master Lich however. And the Kingmaker poll showed several players using the ML, including one of my immediate neighbors.

So if the purpose of the Pretender portion of CBM is to create greater diversity, lowering the cost for a pretender already used more than most others would seem to work at cross purposes with that goal.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.3, updated documentat
 

Re: Gorgon - you should hopefully now see other signature pretenders like lord of the wild or great mother seeing use.

I thought the ML was ok at the previous price, but it is certainly possible that it's being overrated by people. It's definitely no PoD. I don't think it's been turned into a no brainer by the price reduction or anything.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.3, updated documentat
 

One typo:

Lord of the Forest has "power to rally the beats of the wood" . Of course should be beasts, not beats.


The only one thing I don't like is increased cost for Risen Oracle. Yes, it is great pretender, but hard to do it with Agarthas as awake. They really NEED awake pretender and they also need good scales. When you meet Agartha you should be pretty much ready to face Oracle or Olm [and Olm could get some domsummon of small olms or smth else to encourage taking it awake or dormant].

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.3, updated documentat
 

Agreed. The price reduction is small.

But I am not a noob, and I gladly pay the 100 points at times for the ML. Heck he was in the Hall of Fame in the 1st Big Game with 65 Nations for a long time. Shadow Blast and Banefire plus he can't die in his own dominion. And the Master Lich with astral/death combo can be quite evil, as you get risk free magic duels.

Similarly, Tyrant has played in many mp games. While there may be room for debate on his value, there is at least a strong consensus of players that favor him even at 100 points.

So my only thought is why mess with what is not clearly out of whack? We are in total agreement that many many pretenders cost way too much and are never used. And that is the appeal to me of the pretender portion of the CBM.

But I would resist the temptation to lower the value of pretenders that many expereinced mp use at the base cost. And I think the ML is the only one. So it is not a big deal.

As I mentioned to Coobe, the breadth of this mod is tremendous, and no one is going to be pleased with every single aspect of it. There is likely no other mod that has had the amount of work devoted to it. And maybe it will prompt changes.

I do think the Worthy Heroes Mod has prompted a change in thinking, as I recently observed the Agartha vanilla heroes look very Worthy! And I noted KO's comment in Kingmaker that there likely is no need to upgrade the new races heroes, as
they are tough as well.

In fact WH is so commonly used, even Edi thought one of the heroes that had been enabled in the WH mod was also enabled in the vanilla game.

So mods can serve as a testing ground, or beta test if you will. And if they work exceedingly well, then parts of them may be adopted into the base game.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.3, updated documentat
 

Regarding the master liche, I have yet to ever encounter a veteran player using one, let alone winnning with it. I'm happy for someone to prove me wrong, play a duel and see how evil they really are.

As for a testing a ground for changes to the base game- only in the rarest circumstances. Firstly Illwinter has a said repeatedly they don't want to put much time into balance, and that's part of why they are supporting so much modding. Second, they are very reluctant to change anything that contradicts the manual. And thirdly their balance methods are different, while I have to use nerfs very sparingly, that is more or less the exclusive type of balancing Illwinter uses.

While I of course support using pieces and parts of the mod (that's why there is a segmented version), I do wonder if you like most the changes why you'd dismiss 75% of them out of hand.

About the magic scale, it's a very tough issue, it pains me either way it's set up. However, I have come to realize that using the dom2 magic scale in the end reduces one's options.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.3, updated documentat
 

> I have yet to ever encounter a veteran player using one, let alone winnning with it.

I used one in my partially successful game as MA Mictlan (prior to the adding of skypriests etc). But I suppose I don't pick pretenders out of efficiency http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.3, updated documentat
 

Obviously, it's a testament to your skill you were still able to win! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

I'm quite open to the idea of not tweaking the master liche, but I know would not use him as is base game, so I'd really appreciate someone smacking me around with him to get the idea. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.3, updated documentat
 

lol QM. I have won with a Master Lich, and was doing extremely well in the 1st Big Game with one when the game ended due to the unit cap(owned 7 capitals). I am sure if you made a post on the main forum numerous players would answer in the affirmative that they have won large mp games with the ML.

You cannot plan your pretender point system around blitz games(well you can but..) as they are not complete games.

So i have yet to taste defeat in 2 mp games where i used the ML, and with him i defeated numerous nations and mp, K(lanka), Tibbs(la Man), Sauromatia, Franktrollman LA Atlantis, and several other good mp in the other game.

And as i said, my ML spent a long time in the Hall of Fame in a 65 nation game. Explain that if is he is so bad. and there were 3 gorgons in that game as well.

No, I would not take a ML for a blitz game, but that is a small percentage of player time spent on games. maybe more games in toto since they end faster, but less total player time i would imagine.

The fact is the pod is useless against an astral nation. 3-4 mages spamming solar rays and he is dead. Of course if the ML dies, he just lives on to fight another day! And unlike the pod he cannot be targeted.

Immortal pretenders are good in large mp games, because it can be hard to keep them alive. you have no idea what nation you will border or will be fighting. So immortal pretenders, especially immortal rainbow pretenders that can be used in combat without fear, are valuable.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.3, updated documentat
 

Not all duels are blitzes, I've seen them played on very big maps. The crux of it is how well, directly or indirectly. can the master liche help you win wars. Obviously it matters what part of the game the war happens in, but I maintain that pitting nations/pretenders/options head to head is the most variable controlled way to show balance.

You have done well with the master liche in some games, but keep in mind the difference we are talking about here is less than one scale tick. I could price the master liche at 150 points, someone could play them and win. Does that mean it's a good price for him?

About the PoD and solar rays, he can make it a lot farther by holding in the back 5 rounds.

The bottom line is, I'm not especially attached to any specific price for the Master Liche, I don't consider a matter of 25 points on him a major issue. I do appreciate feedback on any changes, but the kind of things that usually help change my mind:

1. Compare ability by ability with a similar option. I.E., if you wanted to show the base game PoD/Lord of Sky weren't balanced, compare their abilities and price.
2. Beat me with the option you think is too good. This is my favorite and most sure fire option.
3. A big enough volume of response from a variety of people that support/don't support a change.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.3, updated documentat
 

Actually, my main point for you to change him back to base cost is he is used by plenty of players at the base cost.

Even if I beat you with the ML, or Tuidjy did, or you beat me, does not really decide anything. I may just be a better player than you, and I may be able to beat you with the Lord of Fertility. Or you may be able to beat me with the Lord of Fertility.

My main reason for leaving him alone is not that he is good-it is he is perceived as good by many players. Since the purpose of your pretender point redistribution system is to get players to use pretenders no one typically plays,
reducing the ML's cost does not serve the purpose of your pretender's portion of your CBM. He is already one of the most used pretenders in Dom III.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.3, updated documentat
 

Oh, I agree, one player beating another with anything doesn't mean much of anything. But, by the same token, if I don't personally see an option used to good effect, I have a very hard time agreeing that it is worthwhile.

Now, your perceived goodness argument does have some merit. From this point of view, it's just a matter of perspective. You have played with a lot of people that use the master liche, I have not. In fact I can't even recall the last time I fought a newbie using one.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.3, updated documentat
 

I will save you a spot in my fall mp game then. And I will use one. Though I will likely play MA Ctis as that is the race I like the ML for. He has higher dominion than the sc liches,
and with his cheaper paths, can easily cover all the missing paths MA Ctis lacks.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.3, updated documentat
 

Just being in the same game doesn't change much, I'm talking about directly fighting one. In any case, I must admit to being mystified that this, out of all the one would assume more controversial changes, is the focus of the thread!

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.3, updated documentat
 

Well i can make sure you start out next to me!

Also, I am giving POSITIVE feedback on the pretender point redistribution idea. I think the idea of making the Titans more appealing is a strong one.

My one minor criticism concerns the ML, and I only voiced it because I am very familiar with that pretender.

Though not many of the players responded to the poll here is a random sampling of pretenders players took in Kingmaker

http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/thr...?Number=614101

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.3, updated documentat
 

Yeah, I saw that poll, perhaps would have been better to make it instead, what was the chassis of the last pretender you entered in MP.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.3, updated documentat
 

Ooh ooh, new CB mod! I am very excited to take a look at this.

Also, silly as it may seem, the changed magic scale was my number 1 reason for not wanting to play CB (you must get so frustrated by all the little issues people get hung up on). Anyway, I just wanted to say I'm super happy you changed it back. If I have time I will definitely have a go at a CB game soonish.

I also really like the Master Lich by the way, having won with him a couple of times. But 25 points isn't a big deal I think.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.3, updated documentat
 

In Kingmaker I have a lich, playing LA Arcos, 5d 3e 3a. Lich, not a ML. One of my neighbors has a cyclops(japezzi), One has
an E9N4 manticore(EA Abysia), And 1 has a ML with death and Astral magic(ma Tien Chi).

Atul is my neighbor as well with Bandar Log, but I have not seen his pretender. Likely an immobile pretender with a heavy bless.

From last turn(26):

http://www.mediafire.com/imgbnc.php/...7b8e82a12g.jpg

Free scouting report for enemies! Good luck stopping him!

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.3, updated documentat
 

Is this the right thread for this? CB does not even touch the normal lich.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.3, updated documentat
 

you asked what pretender i took? I was just answering your question. shrug. I aim to please.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.3, updated documentat
 

Ah, I was just asking in terms of polling data, not particular people. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.3, updated documentat
 

The war-profiteers of Arcoscephale are advised to brush up on their statistics.

54/62 nations = 88% response rate, and the poll was even created after several nations went AI. 2 Master Lichs were chosen (2/54 = 3.7%).

-----

Great work, QM, as always. Perhaps we can change the topic to Carrion Woods?

I've now survived to turn 69 in a very long <font color="brown"> CBM 1.21 </font> game as LA Pangaea. I put Carrion Woods up on ~turn 15 and have had it up continuously ever since (save a 1-turn dispel incident).

Of course I've loved it, but objectively it seems a bit disruptive...a Level-0 Nature-gem-generating Nature spell. Plus badass freespawn.

Anyone else care to chime in? Zeldor?

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.3, updated documentat
 

I'd be curious to know what everyone's gem incomes now are all-in in Alexandria. We should jot it down and reveal once the game is over. Anwyay, I didn't know Carrion Woods gave you N gems as well but it hasn't seemed overbalancing, though I didn't fight you early on. And when we did clash, I had undead mastery which helped take the fear out of the manikin horde.

I really have no idea how LA Pan plays - isn't your population dying off and your gold income and thus ability to buy mages hurt by carrion woods?

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.3, updated documentat
 

Btw thanks QM - I love CBM!

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.3, updated documentat
 

Yeah my population has been dying off, but with all those freespawn, I never had much need to recruit any rank-and-file troops. Further mitigating the problem is that I took Growth-3 to complement Carrion Woods (increases freespawn), offsetting the pop death. Consequently, my ability to buy mages really wasn't hindered too badly.

There was a time when money was really tight, mainly because I'd racked up like 45 Pans @ 23gold/turn...with turmoil 3, dom10. To free up cash, the great Trans-Across-Pangaea Campaign was swiftly implemented, wherein all Pans were immediately ordered to cast the 3N spell Transformation. Hilarity ensued (stealty Moose death mage leading a bunch of Shades, feebleminded 4-clawed foul-spawn-of-doom patrolling down unrest with the help of black hawks, etc). Problem solved.

All-in-all, Growth-3 with Carrion Woods is probably comparable to taking Death-3, except there's no supply penalty, you get free gems, and a crap load of respectable chaff.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.3, updated documentat
 

Thanks for the mod !
I guess i have as much fun studying the readme files as creating lot's of testgames to try out all the changed pretenders.
Bye-bye, free time :-)

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.3, updated documentat
 

I was wondering what the general thoughts where considering CBM and yomi.. I was looking into thos combination since I might play it in MP and....

most seem to agree that yomi is weak as it was and that one of it's best strategies would be bakemono archers and fire arrows.

So it seems an already weak nation has gotten one of it's few viable strats nerved by the CBM, which can hardly be the intention.

(in my test game the starting army aumented by some bakemono archer saw those archer running while we where outnumbering weak indies and bashing their brain. running even while we are WINNING???)

the morale change for those archer should maybe be increasing it instead of lowering it (7 morale is really terrible)

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.3, updated documentat
 

The thing about CB is, it is less about nation balance per se, and more about option balance. In the case of the archers, the idea is to create some incentive recruit the melee bakemono. That said I'm certainly open to looking at other way to try and solve that problem. And of course fire arrows has much more far reaching need of a nerf than relates to Yomi.

Even taking both those things into account though, I think it's difficult to argue Yomi was made weaker in CB. Demon troops are across the board cheaper, and even one of thier mages. And perhaps more significantly, other very strong nations/options Yomi had to be afraid of were taken down a notch (helhirdlings, niefel giants, some super sc pretenders).

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.3, updated documentat
 

As I always suggest - make Bakemono size 1. Apart from making sense on the common and thematic levels, it will significantly improve them in melee.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.3, updated documentat
 

Hopefully at some point we'll have a National Balance Mod. CBM seems to be more about strategic balancing than the more tactical aspects of nation-tweaking.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.3, updated documentat
 

I have thought about making optional add on to CB that's more about nation balance. I doubt it would be that popular though, since it would necessitate a lot of nerfs.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.3, updated documentat
 

I don't think it's worth attempting to be honest. I personally don't have a problem with some nations being stronger, within reason. I believe a lot of people feel the same way.

But options are always good.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.3, updated documentat
 

I know I know.. but Yomi seems especially weak to me already and the CBM doesn't seem to be helping that much. Also on a more background kind of motive: I think there still isn't that much incentive to go demons while this is sort of a demon race.

I think Yomi would deserve a little more love, I don't suggest to make them on par with Niefel, Hinnom or Lanka.

My suggestions:
- more ammo for their demons thrown fire and maybe a little extra damage and range there too. (so you have decent stand and shoot and then melee troops in the largest demons and a line of "archers" behind them in the smaller fire throwers.
- morale 8 for those archers



I guess a national only fire arrows with regulare cost isn't an option?

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.3, updated documentat
 

QM:

There is still a lot of place for adding and improving units. Even if it gets a bit unthematic or stretched. I am sure there are many people that would want to have an option to play with much more improved balance. I am fine with some nations being stronger but I just cannot accept the fact that some nations are extremely overpowered in almost every aspect of the game. You find a cool nation, you want to play it in MP and then you discover it sucks and you should thank the god if you are alive at turn 20.

If you make smth like that I will start MP game with that. It may even get some people to touch so unbalanced early age [I noticed there are very few games in that age and they are pretty much dominated by very few nations].

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.3, updated documentat
 

More ammo is really not a bad idea. All in all though I'd probably prefer just more straight cost cuts (less confusion when changing prices than the nature of troops).

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.3, updated documentat
 

Well, the thing is, if I did it I think it would be more nerfs than boosts. Much easier make those crazy nations a bit less so than boost up every militia to their level. Actually there is a pretty decent sized pile of such balance measures already done but cut from CB due to unpopularity.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.3, updated documentat
 

I wouldn't want all nations to be perfectly balanced against each other. It makes them too similar. But each nation should atleast be fun to play in Multiplayer, and the balancing issues should atleast be addressed, even if they sometimes get overrode by other considerations.

And if a nation is weak, then it deserves more consideration, and more time spent on it. It's a credit to Illwinter that I can't think of a single nation that everyone universally hates-they might be considered unbalanced, but each nation has it's fans. They're all interesting in their own way, and so they do deserve time and effort to update them.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.3, updated documentat
 

I find it hard to imagine this would not be the case, almost regardless.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.3, updated documentat
 

To a point, but even so, it's remarkable to me that people will shout from the very mountaintops about how poorly a given nation functions in MP, but if you then question it's thematic character, they'll defend it with the same passion. Out of 50 plus nations, you'd think that atleast one would be popularly disliked. I just haven't noticed that happening, for any nation.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.3, updated documentat
 

I think prior to the recent updating LA Abysia wasn't well liked and I haven't heard anyone really talking about the new stuff it got either.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.3, updated documentat
 

That might have something to do with the new nations, though-they've kind of outshone some of the nations that were less popular to begin with-including any recent additions to them.

I never said that every nation is passionately loved, some *are* less popular than others, naturally. Just none that have stood out as particularly disliked.

Also, the Late Age is a little skewed on that, I think. Being dominated by Ermor and R'lyeh seems to cast a shadow on some of the other late ages nations, and with magic also being on the wane, it seems a bit less suited for the casual fantasy gamer, and more for the wargamer (who then must digest Ermor and R'lyeh's advantages). I for one don't play Late Age nearly as much as EA and MA, in part because of that.