\"MoD+Retreat\" defeated w/o killing caster
 

I think that there is a misconception that casting Mists of Deception and then Retreating is an unbeatable tactic unless you can kill the caster in the two turns he has to cast and then Retreat.

Not true. If you can kill all the Phantasmal things before new ones spawn, the turn ends. They also die without magical leadership, so that helps.

Here are the turn files, both for the Mod caster as attacker or as defender.

Re: \"MoD+Retreat\" defeated w/o killing caster
 

And the other file.

Re: \"MoD+Retreat\" defeated w/o killing caster
 

Very interesting, thanks.

-Max

Re: \"MoD+Retreat\" defeated w/o killing caster
 

I guess it's nice to see that whole 'MOD + retreat = instant win' has been debunked.

Thanks for taking the time.

Re: \"MoD+Retreat\" defeated w/o killing caster
 

How is one victory against MoD equivalent to debunking it? I dont believe that anyone who advocates banning the spell has lobbied that it was literally impossible to defeat all the phantasms and thus the spell. Only that it was so hard as to be effectively impossible in most scenarios.

Re: \"MoD+Retreat\" defeated w/o killing caster
 

This goes along with what I have argued -

For SC's - this spell *is* impossible to defeat. Similarly, armies with a few, slow units.

Question: Can't this spell be defeated by battlefield damage spells?

Cant this spell be (fairly readily) defeated by spells like Howl? The trick is to get widespread coverage - something that howl, and other similar spells do. I imagine that 3 mages, detailed to do nothing to delay and cast howl would take care of this issue.

Re: \"MoD+Retreat\" defeated w/o killing caster
 

Problem is, they'll still only cast Howl five times max. It's unlikely they'll deal with it that quickly.

Re: \"MoD+Retreat\" defeated w/o killing caster
 

I certainly got the impression from the discussion that even if you killed all the phantoms, the battle would still continue, which would be a bug (on top of the BE retreat bug). Knowing that this is not the case is useful data to me.

-Max

Re: \"MoD+Retreat\" defeated w/o killing caster
 

Actually MoD+Retreat might be the thing that makes "Fire and Flee" a usable action.

Something else I thought of is casting "Call of the Winds" on your own province, then setting the leader for "Attack Rearmost". Possibly with the other birds as Guard Commander.

If MoD+R makes other tactics viable then I would shift to being in support of it as is. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: \"MoD+Retreat\" defeated w/o killing caster
 

I like fire and flee in a variety of instances. Most especially if I have sacred archers with death weapons.

Re: \"MoD+Retreat\" defeated w/o killing caster
 

I call B.S. It was very rudely expressed to me by several posters that this combination is unbeatable in any situation and that people like me were cheaters for even suggesting that someone find a way to defeat the tactic.

So there is no chance that you found a way to beat this tactic. And even if you did, a strategy that cannot be defeated by one fully con4 equipped SC should never be allowed in this game.

Take your lies, deceit and h4xors and please find a community that will tolerate your shenanigans.

/sarcasm off

I am really glad someone made an effort to figure out / explain counters to this spell. Tears never amount to progress!

Re: \"MoD+Retreat\" defeated w/o killing caster
 

I fully agree with Foodstamp.

Re: \"MoD+Retreat\" defeated w/o killing caster
 

Here is another saved game. It involves a small Abysian army with a few mages(one casting Fire Storm) and a few guys with Rod's of the Phoenix beating a defending MoD + Storm + Wrathful Skys + Grip of Winter + Quagmire. The Abysian army takes a few losses, and I had to make the Seraph Pretender immune to fire because I was afraid he's get killed on turn one of the combat. It's in a Cold 3 province.

Re: \"MoD+Retreat\" defeated w/o killing caster
 

The MoD bug description has been amended to reflect the discussions in this and the BF Enchantments & retreat thread.

Re: \"MoD+Retreat\" defeated w/o killing caster
 

Good. At least I think I will finally understand soon if it deserves to be a fair tactic in MP or not. People seem very doubtful about all in these strange days... ^_^

Re: \"MoD+Retreat\" defeated w/o killing caster
 

I have to admit I'm sad that this has been toned down from a red to a purple bug. Regardless of whether it's counterable it's still a horrible bug to be on the receiving end of.

Any smart guy who plans to (ab)use MoD will only use it for the first time against a big enemy army. Few big armies are equipped to cope with it, so it's probably an insta-kill on that army at least.

I don't want to have to script all my armies for all time to cope with an MoD exploit. It's certainly at least non-trivial to counter. So as a bug it perturbs the game arguably far more than any other single bug,

Re: \"MoD+Retreat\" defeated w/o killing caster
 

I can make it red again, but we shall see. JK is on vacation, but I have asked him to look at the MoD issue and I expect he will sometime when he returns and I'll hear back from in due time.

In fact, I think it might still be better to put it in red because of the abusability due to the general BF enchantment & retreat issue. Domes are still in red, after all.

Re: \"MoD+Retreat\" defeated w/o killing caster
 

I Disagree with Foodstamp and Endo since it's been known for an enternity you can beat the spell but the fact remains that once the caster leaves the spell should end, it's an admitted bug by the makers too I think and if it's exploited it's enough reason to kick pplz in the nuts for it.

Re: \"MoD+Retreat\" defeated w/o killing caster
 

I haven't changed my opinion of this at all. My problem with it was always that it was an incredibly lame/cheap tactic (yes I am willing to accept people will do things that are lame, but I still prefer them to not be in the game) and that it had been indicated by the devs to be a bad bug. On top of that you had several experienced players reporting that they had been able to successfully use it to trash other players with minimal effort, making it more effective that any legit tactic going. Stopping something like this in a test environment and stopping it in a real game are very different.

Battlefield enchants vanish when the caster dies and I see no reason they shouldn't vanish when he retreats. It's just an oversight.

I don't want to play mp with people dropping stuff like this so I'll stick to games where it's banned and hope it's fixed for the basegame.

Re: \"MoD+Retreat\" defeated w/o killing caster
 

If he looks at the three games I've posted, I'll accept his judgments. I could create more representative games using different tactics, but I think the one's I've tested are enough to show the weaknesses of MoD + BE + Retreat, as well as everyone's potential ability to counter them in the endgame.

PS. The devs can feel free to email me at any time. I'd be happy to discuss this issue.

Re: \"MoD+Retreat\" defeated w/o killing caster
 

Well... if me and Sombre agree we must be right.. I think that settles it http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

Re: \"MoD+Retreat\" defeated w/o killing caster
 

I view that as a newbies' conception of a "big army", rather than an experienced player's conception of a "powerful army." I think that I've shown that an army prepared to deal with SCs and thugs should beat MoD + BE, so I'm not sure if it's an important issue.

I mean, a powerful army is composed of diverse elements using several different "winning" strategies. The late game is about mastery of magic, and not about mere strength of arms.

Considering that I believe that this is the one of the PC games I think has "1-2 years" time to achieve mastery (or at least competence), I reserve my judgment to whether adding this complexity to the game is "fair".

Re: \"MoD+Retreat\" defeated w/o killing caster
 

Would you please get your ego in check?

No-one cares whether you will accept the decisions of the devs, least of all them.

Re: \"MoD+Retreat\" defeated w/o killing caster
 

I think the most proper thing to do would be just nerfing MoD down a bit, to make it lose its "unfairness" aura that many see, letting it remain a powerful spell if not properly countered, so making it more playable and enjoyable by everybody. But the 2 factions here don't move towards each other so we are not going anywhere together... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

Re: \"MoD+Retreat\" defeated w/o killing caster
 

The funny thing is that the same tactics that are effective against SCs and thugs are effective against MoD + BE.

Sure, every army doesn't need to be able to deal with these tactics, but isn't that the key decision to make? (Either make a reinforcing army to join a diverse army or make a stand-alone army)?

Re: \"MoD+Retreat\" defeated w/o killing caster
 

I downloaded your first example K and build up the exact same situation 2 turns later.

I saved it and run it 20 times and your outcome happens in exactly 2 cases! In all other (18 times) the lanka commanders were fled to adjacent provinces and only your berserking troops existing in the province. (BTW: A good player would try to prevent a sucessfull excape by conquering the adjancent provinces)

At least in your first example i'm sure you tried it more than one time to get this outcome and you know that it was just luck!

So even with the fact you build up a perfect situation for a defence against MoD+Retreat you fail!

Re: \"MoD+Retreat\" defeated w/o killing caster
 

Dun dun DUUUN http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/shock.gif

Re: \"MoD+Retreat\" defeated w/o killing caster
 

Interesting. I ran it twice and since it worked I posted it. (And it was an individual battle example, and not a metagame example that considered overall war strategy).

Most importantly: where is your saved game? I'd like to check your results and see if you did anything wrong with scripting, unit placement, composition of units, etc.

That being said, the third game I posted is also a clear win using a completely different army composition and different tactics.

How many wins will satisfy the community?

Re: \"MoD+Retreat\" defeated w/o killing caster
 

Savegame Uploaded. Like i said. I just played another 2 turns of your game to fill up air gems to cast MoD and Storm (for Lanka) again. Nothing else changed so its exactly your starting position. I even gave more gems to the defending storm caster.

(The Mapfile is in K's first post package)

Re: \"MoD+Retreat\" defeated w/o killing caster
 

My battle takes place in Friendly Dominion(+1 Morale). Your battles probably take place in Neutral(+/-0) or Enemy Dominion(-1). Considering that your pretender is closer, it probably is enemy dominion.

That explains why my guys Retreat earlier in your games. Two points of morale is a big deal in a long battle.

Re: \"MoD+Retreat\" defeated w/o killing caster
 

For it being "known for eternity" the spell can be defeated there were a lot of people saying otherwise.

The very vocal argument was that after everyone fled the field, the spell would continue forever no matter the circumstances. As far as being an admitted bug, you guys convinced the developers that you had tested the spell and that it did last forever after a mage+everyone retreated off the field. I can see where they would call that a bug, but it seems now the spell does not work like you all said.

You guys want the spell gone, changed, fine. But from reading the MP threads on the issue, we lost atleast one player from the community because he was called a cheater and ridiculed for a couple of pages on an MP thread for using this spell. The sad thing being of course, the people pointing the finger had no idea how the spell really worked.

Next time let's check our "jump to conclusions" mat at the door.

Re: \"MoD+Retreat\" defeated w/o killing caster
 

I can't remember any battle were Lanka fled because of morale. They retreat after reaching battleturnlimit!

And even if not it was neutral ground (which is 1 morale difference!), so please don't tell us the battles ran this way because your commanders had morale 20 instead of 19!

Re: \"MoD+Retreat\" defeated w/o killing caster
 

From the buglist:

CBT Battlefield Enchantments Battlefield enchantments that affect the whole battlefield for the duration of the battle (e.g. Wrathful Skies, Darkness, Solar Brilliance etc) do not end when the mage who cast them leaves battlefield, even though they should.

This is an 'admitted' bug and applies to MoD. Fixing this bug avoids any need to do anything special to MoD.

Re: \"MoD+Retreat\" defeated w/o killing caster
 

by the way you could just as well do the same thing with
something like a handful of mages and and Wrathful skies.

just blink them around the battlefield.

Re: \"MoD+Retreat\" defeated w/o killing caster
 

For the record,
I completely agree about the spell should end wen the caster retreats. But I think it should be fixed as part of the generic fix it for all BE, not as an especial case.

Just as a brain storm, by the way.. wouldn't a few mages blinking around with void eyes, ALSO resolve the issue?

Re: \"MoD+Retreat\" defeated w/o killing caster
 

Well, having seen the effect of a single Standard, I'd argue that one point of morale is a big deal.

But, I did run the test ten more times this morning using your files and no other changes and I can't really account for your results. Even if I just hit Host, I keep getting consistent Lankan wins either by Seraph kills(2) or outfighting the MoD(8).

Are you running a mod? Are you patched to the latest version?

I did notice that the Seraph got killed in two of the games, which is interesting and I would have noticed with more test games. The False Horrors force him into melee and he's not casting his spells or retreating.

Look at the second game(same map and different set-up) or the third game I posted(Abysian army + Fire Storm vs. MoD + Storm + Wrathful Skies + Grip of Winter + Quagmire + Retreat). The third game actually ends pretty quick and is nicely impressive with fire, snow, and lightning pyrotechnics.

Re: \"MoD+Retreat\" defeated w/o killing caster
 

K, just take my save game and run it. I think you're not so stupid and count the victories, aren't you?

The outcome is always "lanka wins". The question is how they win. After battleturn limit lanka gets an autoroute! Most of the commanders and troops fled and just some few remains in the province.

Re: \"MoD+Retreat\" defeated w/o killing caster
 

I guess I'm stupid.

Ok, I ran it five more times. In two there was a clear victory with no retreats, in two there was a victory and 1 or 4 mages ended up in neighboring provinces, and in the last one the seraph never go to cast because he was driven off.

What's your point?

I could alter the scripting like I did in the second posted game and there would be fewer retreating mages, but the three saved games I posted are all examples of outfighting the MoD. They are "proof of concept" games.

I could toss two more mages in and then have 100% repeatable games where no one retreats, but what would that prove? I've already shown the bare minimum needed to outfight a MoD.

Getting hit by any mage ambush involves losses. Hell, you should see what that same Seraph can do when scripted to cast Shimmering Fields and then Retreat. Watch the results of a powerful Beckoning or a Cold 3 Murdering Winter.

As far as I can tell, the essence of good DomIII play is taking a few gems and making your enemy lose more gems.

Re: \"MoD+Retreat\" defeated w/o killing caster
 

I did 5 tests in row with -d debug on. All 5 tests went 75 turns and end with an autoroute. The the complete logfile in the attachment. Search for 'turn 75'.

Re: \"MoD+Retreat\" defeated w/o killing caster
 

Would you please get your ego in check?

No-one cares whether you will accept the decisions of the devs, least of all them.


--> I agree with Sombre again.. must mean we are right http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

Re: \"MoD+Retreat\" defeated w/o killing caster
 

Sorry K for me you're no longer trustworthy.

You bring up a test with an output which happens only in a rare case.
You missed completely to upload the scenario BEFORE the battle so everyone can test it. I'm sure you knew its rare.
I disprove your so called "test" and you still argue round and round.

Well, i'm sure i can do 100 more tests and you still write silly answers with more or less lies in it. You recall me on one person in dom2 who also denied all facts and was immune to arguments.

Re: \"MoD+Retreat\" defeated w/o killing caster
 

Hmm, I just ran Calmon's upload 4 times and 3 of the 4 times it went to defender rout, just to add some more data points to the scenario.

Regardless, check out my post about the risk vs reward factor. Even if you have a 50% success rate at killing off the phantasms the MoD caster really isn't out much more than a few mage turns and gems for each attempt if you're unable to kill off the casting mage(s).

Beckoning costs 20 gems, Shimmering fields has crappy range, and murdering winter is 50. Much like some of your proposed counters in the other thread I'm getting a bit suspicious of the claims you're making, K...

Re: \"MoD+Retreat\" defeated w/o killing caster
 

FYI to Calmon and K both, the easiest way to run a battle multiple times is to insert some random militia or archer unit into it near the beginning of the battle (with Shift+U). That changes the random seed and gives new results without much affecting the battle itself. It's easier than saving the game and copying-and-running the turn twenty times.

-Max

Re: \"MoD+Retreat\" defeated w/o killing caster
 

Wow. It's another thread that devolves into personal attacks.

I'll explain myself exactly once:

I put up a few test games to show that MoD could be beaten by killing the phantasms. That is proved beyond any doubt, and has caused the buglist to be altered to fit the truth.

I did not set up a fail-proof MoD counter for people to test and play with. I had no intention of doing so, which is why I ran exactly four games using four strategies and I posted three of them (the unposted one wasn't a win on the first try, so I ditched it rather than fiddle with the exact set-up I'd need to win).

I had no intention of dragging in the old argument of "is a BE + Retreat broken?" in this thread. I know that lots of people value it to an insane degree (much higher than I do) and they think it's an unbeatable tactic.

And I don't care anymore.

I've shown that small armies with a few mages can beat it. It doesn't matter if it happens rarely if you use the small army and a few mages in my test games and more often with a larger army and more mages.

It has been proved possible. My goal is accomplished, and fighting with you guys over whether you think BE/MoD + Retreat is broken is not worth my time because it's only a matter of opinion on both sides.

My only question is this: you can't disprove that it is not possible, so what exactly are you doing? At best, you can only prove that I should have used a few more mages.

Re: \"MoD+Retreat\" defeated w/o killing caster
 

Personally I'd rather see a powerful late game army, than a small and intentionally crafted MoD strike force.

Take a nation and make a typical army for them. Not a fantastical dream of what you'd hope for on turn 100 if you got all the coolest sites and empowered your pretender to 9/9/9+ to cast all spells. A typical army, that you would have on say turn 40-50, with just one path at 9, and few others at 4-6. A couple end game summons, some other handfuls of whatever nice elite things.

Try not to pick a nation that you specifically think has an edge in this please. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Also, script them as if you expected to face an actual army of some kind. We are in agreement that attempting to defeat a residual spell from a fled caster, requires different tactics than needed in facing an actual combat force? Good, then if you can accept this challenge, please attach the previous turn file so that the setup and scripting can be examined and analyzed by those whom you intend to convince.


So far, all this seems like is you bringing in a video of a lion eating a guy with a rifle, to prove that lions are not endangered because they can defend themselves.

Re: \"MoD+Retreat\" defeated w/o killing caster
 

I though that my Abysia game was a pretty good example of this.

The tactics are simple. Use mages. Focus on damaging magic with decent ranges. It's the same tactics I use on enemy armies unless some overriding tactical reason pops up.

I've attacked enemies on turn 40-50 with armies that had 20 mages and hundreds of elite troops. Is that what you want?

I don't think that that'll prove anything.


-----------

P.S Do you know how hard it is to craft a decent late game army that won't kill any single MoD-casting mages on round 1?

Re: \"MoD+Retreat\" defeated w/o killing caster
 

Okay, let me refine the challenge.

You have repeatedly claimed that the best way to avoid being affected by this exploit is to kill the MoD caster before they can retreat. So that's what I want to see happen.

Obviously you will send him in the way you would if you were running the other nation seriously, with bodyguards and such, so he's not just an easy target.

Part of my problem with this claim of killing him first, is that you like to reference fliers, but in most cases your fliers are shock troops. I can't imagine a normal scenario where they would be scripted to attack, rather than hold+attack, else they'll fly up and get slaughtered before the lines meet. If they hold, obviously they won't just dart back there and defuse the bomb, will they? That's what I'm getting at here.

Once we've established that the scenario is based around what you're actually expecting the army to normally be facing, then I want to see you actually able to kill the MoD caster before he escapes.

Making sure that he lacks SR, and then using Thunder Strike, doesn't count. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: \"MoD+Retreat\" defeated w/o killing caster
 

Yeh, that's how you use fliers. You sacrifice them so that enemy mages end up affecting their own army with missed spells and sometimes you jack up enemy mages. If they are shock troop fliers that can stand a few turns of that, then even better.

Re: \"MoD+Retreat\" defeated w/o killing caster
 

NONO let's not go there

apperantly K wanted to let us know that MoD + retreat isn't a 100 % win, personally I knew this could theoretically be done (never bothered to try) and I guess some more did but he proved it since his file has shown it. Considering the reactions it seems it was news for a number of pplz. Ok let's thank K for the info he brought some. I'm sure K agrees it's not EASY to beat MoD + retreat so no need for more challenges.

After that the fact wether you think it's abusing a bug remains the same as in about a 100000 threads and posts in the past (personally I think the fact the dev's say it's a bug enough but whatever) and I would propose we don't repeat all those 10000 posts.

The thread has been informational and now it should be left to die.

Re: \"MoD+Retreat\" defeated w/o killing caster
 

It's good that some people learned something from this thread.