P&N Pirates: too weak?
 

I've been thinking about the Pirates in human vs. human play, and I'm pretty sure that they're gonna be way too weak.

Some things I may do to improve their chances:

-Allow a large & expensive colony ship.
-Give them a maintenance reduction component like the nomads have.
-Give them a level 5 cloak, civilian transponder kindathing.

What do you guys think?

Or should we just wait for PBW games to see if they need tweaking.

Re: P&N Pirates: too weak?
 

I agree that the pirates are too weak. To start off with, unless they are next to a player they stand *no* chance at all to be honest.
Even when they do come across a human player, that human player usually recognises quickly that they are pirates and counters accordingly (armed escorts, fleet movements rather than lone ships and so on)
Not sure how to make them stronger though. I suggest playtesting lots of things http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

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The Unofficial Space Empires 4 Mod Utility V2.0
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Check a Screenshot of it<HERE>

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Re: P&N Pirates: too weak?
 

Historically though pirates have not really been a legitamate force. They have always preyed on weak enemies and run from fights against actual military forces.

The idea has a lot of merit as a role play race though. They can be a tool of a powerful empire against an another empire. One that you don't want to attack directly.

I think they would be great in a medium to large size game where you have strong empires facing off in a "cold war" type situation. One where you want to cause your enemy problems without actually openly fighting them.

The problem may be finding players to play a race where they really have no chance of winning, only of influencing the game and having fun role playing.

Geoschmo

Re: P&N Pirates: too weak?
 

I agree with Geo, Pirates should be weak. You don't play them to win. You play them to be pest. Traditionally, pirates have no national aspirations. They are a group of bandits bent on stealing what they can for themselves, without regard for others.

I just started playing them this weekend on Version 2.3. I really like the new ship movement rules. It takes a while getting used to but makes logical sense. Too early for me to suggest changes.

I would and am looking forward to giving them a try on PBW. They just made the mod available this weekend. A pirate player might benefit from allying with a stronger "normal" player. This player could then gift the pirate some worlds near to his enemies, so that the pirate could assist in the struggle. This is a level of coordination that you rarely see in other SEIV games/modules. It is something more than just a team concept, because it requires an even deeper coordination of the strategy you are pursuing if both players are to successful.


EARLY AND IGNORANT SUGGESTION:

I do have a question for Geo. My concept of Nomads are just that. No homeworld. A group of ragtag fugitives on a lonely desperate quest for something. You know, Battlestar Galactica. A large group of varied ships from cruisers to battleships, to freighters, to starlines, to transports in megafleets roaming from star system to star system. How about the concept of carving out an asteroid and adding engines? It only needs to move at a speed of 1 per turn to be mobile. And it allows for a new tech: "Colonize Asteroid".

How about ship components that perform research and intelligence? Also make solar panels a given tech for these races. That resupply need based on a single planet could be quite devastating early on. An enemy placed next to your home system could mean a very short game.

Just my 2 cents.

Re: P&N Pirates: too weak?
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>How about the concept of carving out an asteroid and adding engines? It only needs to move at a speed of 1 per turn to be mobile.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>That would be a BattleMoon http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif
10,000 KT of space, and can use "core mount" weapons.
Note that 40 Ion engines cannot move a BattleMoon (you need at least C-Ts), and Propulsion experts get TWO movement on the map.

Just research ship construction & base Construction to MAX.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>My concept of Nomads are just that. No homeworld. A group of ragtag fugitives on a lonely desperate quest for something. You know, Battlestar Galactica. A large group of varied ships from cruisers to battleships, to freighters, to starlines, to transports in megafleets roaming from star system to star system. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>As nomads, you build whatever ships you want.
You don't need a homeworld, but a planet is required to communicate with others and to get research points.
As a bonus, if you have no planets and lose contact, you are immune to intel.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Also make solar panels a given tech for these races. That resupply need based on a single planet could be quite devastating early on.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I think I will give the nomads a +2 in solar panel tech (like the +2 in fighters).

If you need resupply on the frontier, build an empty-hull base. All bases have built-in Quantum reactors, so when you fleet any base with some ships, they all get maxed out supplies.
It does take longer than a resupply depot, but you don't need a planet.

Also, once you've got the tech, build a Massive Fighter with a quantum reactor. Zero maintenance, mobile, plus infinite fuel, but can't warp.

[This message has been edited by suicide_junkie (edited 27 August 2001).]

Re: P&N Pirates: too weak?
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by geoschmo:
Historically though pirates have not really been a legitamate force. They have always preyed on weak enemies and run from fights against actual military forces.

The idea has a lot of merit as a role play race though. They can be a tool of a powerful empire against an another empire. One that you don't want to attack directly.

I think they would be great in a medium to large size game where you have strong empires facing off in a "cold war" type situation. One where you want to cause your enemy problems without actually openly fighting them.

The problem may be finding players to play a race where they really have no chance of winning, only of influencing the game and having fun role playing.

Geoschmo<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Convergence! The "adapted" AI required to operate pirates would be almost identical to the AI needed to operate space monsters. Think about how both would behave... seeking out planets and making raids, hiding in convenient storms/asteroid fields (if this can be made possible in the hardcode -- right now it isn't). The only difference is that one would be 'ships' and the other 'monsters'. 'Space Monsters' and 'Pirates' could both be added to the game at minimal programming over-head. A two-for-one deal! http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

As a bonus, there could be another option besides "random" pirates operated by the game. There could be an intelligence operation that lets you create a pirate force targetted at a specific empire. It would probably have to be established in a specific system and only be able to affect that system and possibly adjacent systems. You would have to spend resources, pay a "maintenance cost" to keep them around once they were created. This way ALL layers could "play pirates" without giving up their ability to win the game. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif This would be a great way around the problem of treaty restrictions and the unconditional identification of the source of any attack. In RL it is often possible to carry out a raid without giving away who launched it. But not in SE. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon9.gif A definite disadvantage to the simple "sides" in the current game design. Being able to harrass someone whom you have 'allied' with just because they are too big to attack right now (or because you are in another war already) would be really handy.

Further intelligence operations to subvert a pirate group or just discover who created it might be good options.

Now, the question is should the pirate ships be directly controllable by the player who created the pirate force? Or should they be an AI 'client' that only obeys orders 'most of the time' like a real bunch of pirates? I prefer the latter. Pirates don't strike me as exemplars of military discipline. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif



[This message has been edited by Baron Munchausen (edited 27 August 2001).]

Re: P&N Pirates: too weak?
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> hiding in convenient storms/asteroid fields <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Do asteroids hide your ships?

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Assume you have a 1kg squirrel
E=mc^2
E=1kg(3x10^8m/s)^2=9x10^16J
which, if I'm not mistaken, is equivilent to roughly a 50 megaton nuclear bomb.
Fear the squirrel.

Re: P&N Pirates: too weak?
 

By default, no, but I think they can be set to do so.

Phoenix-D

Re: P&N Pirates: too weak?
 

No, it does not work for asteroids. For some reason, the powers that work for storms don't work the same for asteroids. Sight obscuration doesn't work at all. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon9.gif This is really annoying because the absolutely classic, cannon SciFi way for a smaller force to escape from a superior force is to duck into an asteroid belt. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif I'd like MM to change that so it can work, and to make it possible to put more than one ability on one object. What if I'd like ALL storms to have sight obscuration, and then some of them to also have other abilities? As far as I know that cannot be done right now.

Re: P&N Pirates: too weak?
 

An option would be to create an asteroid belt looking storm, describe it as a storm with sight obscuration, and merely have it so it can't be remote mined.

I believe this would work http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/ima...ons/icon12.gif

Re: P&N Pirates: too weak?
 

Schmo,

Did you see the thread "SEIV is being pirated?" ...........sorry, lame joke.


Suicide,

On the topic of Nomads and asteroids. Battlemoon is cool. However, I am talking about starting the game with one. They are so prohibitively expensive that it would take quite a while to build another. This would be the homeworld, rather than a planet. I haven't got that far in my playtesting, but could it be outfitted with crew quarters that let the population reproduce? You actually live on it and build facilities within it. A mobile planet. Can it be done with SEIV?

Again, no one is going to win SEIV with a nomadic race. But they have to move 1 or 2 behemoth asteroids around with a massive swarm of a fleet to protect their assets. They drift slowly from star system to star system until they find a place to "settle". Just don't cross a warp with a blackhole... instant death of your race at a movement rate of 1-2.

------------------
The Good Doc

"Henceforth I spread confident wings to space
I fear no barrier of crystal or glass;
I cleave the heavens and soar to the infinite.
And while I rise from my own globe to others
And penetrate even further through the eternal field,
That which others saw from afar, I leave far behind me."

-Giordano Bruno
"On the Infinite Universe and Worlds," 1584

Re: P&N Pirates: too weak?
 

way back when, someone figured out a mod that would permit asteroids to be colonized. does anyone remember how it was done?

from what i remember, facility slots were based on the size of the asteroid field, and were identical to those of a planet that size.. but i could be wrong, and i would thing that it could be edited in the planet sizes text file.

this could also make for a very interesting theme game, if you did some heavy tech tree edits. you could have two kinds of races, asteroid dwellers and planet dwellers. asteroid dwellers would get a racial tech that gave them asteroid colonization and planet destroyers. planet dwellers would get planet colonization tech and planet creators.

which reminds me, i am certain that colonies are destroyed with a planet. i seem to remember with the above mentioned mod that colonies were not destroyed if a colonized asteroid field is turned into a planet. i could have just imagined that though.

------------------
"...the green, sticky spawn of the stars"
(with apologies to H.P.L.)

Re: P&N Pirates: too weak?
 

Baron Munchausen,
your idea for the hard code changes to make monsters and Pirates work are great. Especially for the "empire controlled" pirates. You should post them in the most-bang-for-the-buck topic.

Re: P&N Pirates: too weak?
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>On the topic of Nomads and asteroids. Battlemoon is cool. However, I am talking about starting the game with one. They are so prohibitively expensive that it would take quite a while to build another. This would be the homeworld, rather than a planet. I haven't got that far in my playtesting, but could it be outfitted with crew quarters that let the population reproduce? You actually live on it and build facilities within it. A mobile planet. Can it be done with SEIV?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>"Planetary cloaks - and planetary engines! - are on the todo list. He's just been so busy with bugs that he's not been able to add all the features he'd like yet. " - Baron Munchausen
With that, and a little scenario modding (build a planetary engine on nomad's homeworld before uploading to PBW as 1st turn), you've got your nomadic start.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Again, no one is going to win SEIV with a nomadic race. But they have to move 1 or 2 behemoth asteroids around with a massive swarm of a fleet to protect their assets. They drift slowly from star system to star system until they find a place to "settle". Just don't cross a warp with a blackhole... instant death of your race at a movement rate of 1-2.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>The nomad who does not scout ahead, is already dead http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

Note that a BlackHole does not mean instant death for a BattleMoon (or even a baseship).
In fact, you merely need to spend 1020 KT to make a BlackHole-Proof Vehicle.

Just place 24 Organic or Crystalline Armor, Premium Mount, and 3 Repair Bays.
You get 5040 armor, repaired every turn, and BlackHoles do 5000 damage by default.

Once you are stable on the event horizon, you can retrofit your vehicle and add Lots of Emergency propulsion, then muscle your way out. Races with advanced propulsion can get 4 movement with EP.
Or, I suppose, anybody could open a warppoint on the event horizon, and warp through.
In that case, anybody who tries to follow the warppoint back towards your base of operations/Homeworld gets a nasty surprise http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

------------------
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-&lt;Download P&N Classic&gt;- (The final release of P&N v1.x, just extract to your SE4 folder)
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[This message has been edited by suicide_junkie (edited 28 August 2001).]

Re: P&N Pirates: too weak?
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Note that a BlackHole does not mean instant death for a BattleMoon (or even a baseship).
In fact, you merely need to spend 1020 KT to make a BlackHole-Proof Vehicle.

Just place 24 Organic or Crystalline Armor, Premium Mount, and 3 Repair Bays.
You get 5040 armor, repaired every turn, and BlackHoles do 5000 damage by default.

Once you are stable on the event horizon, you can retrofit your vehicle and add Lots of Emergency propulsion, then muscle your way out. Races with advanced propulsion can get 4 movement with EP.
Or, I suppose, anybody could open a warppoint on the event horizon, and warp through.
In that case, anybody who tries to follow the warppoint back towards your base of operations/Homeworld gets a nasty surprise. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Have you actually built and done this? If so, then I am truly not worthy. I stand in awe of your modding skills. What is the view like from the event horizon?

Which leads me to another dimension of SEIV. How about warping those points from the event horizon into another current game of SEIV? I think this would be the ultimate, the SEIV multiverse. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon6.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>"Planetary cloaks - and planetary engines! - are on the todo list. He's just been so busy with bugs that he's not been able to add all the features he'd like yet. " - Baron Munchausen
With that, and a little scenario modding (build a planetary engine on nomad's homeworld before uploading to PBW as 1st turn), you've got your nomadic start.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And all of my wildest fantasies shall come true!

I'm not hard to please. It was a long, hard day at the office. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/shock.gif

------------------
The Good Doc

"Henceforth I spread confident wings to space
I fear no barrier of crystal or glass;
I cleave the heavens and soar to the infinite.
And while I rise from my own globe to others
And penetrate even further through the eternal field,
That which others saw from afar, I leave far behind me."

-Giordano Bruno
"On the Infinite Universe and Worlds," 1584

Re: P&N Pirates: too weak?
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Have you actually built and done this? If so, then I am truly not worthy. I stand in awe of your modding skills. What is the view like from the event horizon?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Not modding skills, ShipDesign skills! (plus a little peeking at the system creation txt file)

The view consists mostly of broken AI ships hurtling inwards http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif, plus multiple images of your own base when you look along the horizon.
With a telescope, you can see your own back!

The file I've attached is from P&N v2.3, and on the right side of the map, you will find a BattleMoon sitting on the black hole.

If you gift the escort just outside the black hole to one of the AIs and take control of it, you can start a battle, and see:
-The battlemoon has full armor
-The battlemoon has 20K shields even in a black hole system (25K outside)

Note that in order to get the blackhole to destroy the battlemoon for you, you must punch through 20K shields, and destroy 30+ Biocrystal armors!
Or, you can null-space the repair bays http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/ima...ons/icon12.gif, if of course, you can get past the Massive mount repulsor beams, and the Triple CoreMount PPBs (3K damage each)

Re: P&N Pirates: too weak?
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by docshane:
What is the view like from the event horizon?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

what, never saw _The Black Hole_ with that mad scientist sitting at the edge of the event horizon in his massive ship, and his evil robot, and those irritating little anti-grav bots, and the banged up one named Tex?

thats exactly what it looks like, really. its on film, must be real.

------------------
"...the green, sticky spawn of the stars"
(with apologies to H.P.L.)