Warmachines for Dom3
 

Since this has been brought up over in the Oceania thread, I thought I'd make a space to post ideas for seige weapons for either general use as new Construction summons, or if anyone has any ideas for seige weapons for other nations, feel free to post those too.

Note: It's my opinion that small, mobile weapons of this type are the most appropriate, but it might also be possible to include larger capital-only defensive seige weapons, probably immobile, as a boost to capital PD. I think it's safe to suggest that in no case should they outdo a spell already present in the game.

We already have chariots, and seige-type weapons are becoming more popular in mods, so there's some precedent for this type of weapon already.

Re: Seige engines for Dom3
 

I only see 2 problems with the inclusion of siege weaponry.....

First, being that if they are "summonable", where would they go other than Earth? As a stretch, perhaps could say since a catapult is mostly wood and fiber (rope) that Nature could do it, but it seems anything is sort of a stretch, as summons.

But then if recruitable, who gets them and who doesn't? If all they really get is a siege bonus, the problem may be that the nations they are the best fit for, already have addressed that issue (sappers, etc). If they have high powered projectiles (likely AOE) in addition to or in lieu of a siege bonus, then it is hard to not either make them unattractive (capital only, unlikely anyone would buy them), or overpowered (recruitable anywhere, essentially Fatigue free evocation spam).


I do kind of like the immobile idea - essentially a way to just invest into the tower defenses to make any attack that much more difficult. I'm not sure those should be cap only, they'd add an interesting strategic point if they could be used on any castle.

I do understand that you say small and mobile..... I guess I've been thinking of them as essential commander type units, but perhaps Ballista and Scorpions, which would sort of be like the ancient technological answer to thugs and SCs - single target AP attacks with very high damage. Just give them a move of 1/4 or something, and high enough HP to not die to a stray arrow, but low enough to probably die from one good melee swing from a giant.

Re: Seige engines for Dom3
 

Well, before they were "summoned" they didn't exist http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif So I guess you could say they were summoned from the Outer Limits (Dimension of Time, Dimension of Space, Dimension of the Mind.). Construction works this way, because we don't ask where magical items came from, someone created them, just like they create mechanical men or juggernauts.

I personally don't want them recruitable. That's an issue of national balance, so ideas for that are welcome, but they come with other considerations attached.

Re: Seige engines for Dom3
 

crushers!!!!

Re: Seige engines for Dom3
 

Crushers. Yes.

Re: Seige engines for Dom3
 

i think this is just asking for unnecessary complexity. Dom3 has never been about being a 'hyper-realistic' wargame; I, in fact, find those types of games to be pure dross for a complexity of both ontological and gaming reasons that aren't worth going into right now.

we could imaging that a nation does in fact build siege engines, thus why mindless and animals aren't as good, since they don't grasp the architectural concepts. Or whatever, use your imagination. Modeling siege engines is just not something Dom3 is equipped to do, nor what it is even about.

And for all these points, there already are units and summons in the game that get siege bonuses.

Warmachines for Dom3
 

It's not about actually using them in a seige, they'd just be warmachines, so maybe that's a better term? Some ofcourse might get seige bonuses, but that's not the ultimate focus here-it's more for standardized, non-nation specific, machines that could be used either in the field, or for specific purposes, including supporting PD, and also supporting seiges.

Re: Warmachines for Dom3
 

Death Ray Squid Tanks! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

Sorry, I cannot resist. >.>

Also, the Ulmish Mammoth Chariots. So awesome. <3

Re: Warmachines for Dom3
 

Flying fortresses, with dragons in them

Re: Warmachines for Dom3
 

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif

Re: Seige engines for Dom3
 

I actually agree with everything of that.

Also, making the gifs and the statistics, and resolving the balance issues of catapults, ballistas, trebutchets, some of them possibly magic to add a bit of variety and fantasy in this... would be a huge load of work, for something the game isn't IMHO in the real need of. And even doing all this, the result could possibly break many balances anyway nonetheless- many nations just don't fit IMHO the state of mind of building and carrying around catapults, ballistas, trebutchets. Intantly come to mind Abysia, Pangaea, Niefelheim, EA Marverni, and possibly many others. Playing Dominions 3 already requires sometimes big stretchs of imagination - as it's a fantasy game, and as it has not be done with full hi-res graphic showing everything that happens in the story like other titles. Imagining my soldiers building some war engines to bring down the gates of a fort, and the ones with the siege bonus being better at this than the other, is a minor one http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif

I'm not of course saying, do not improve the game, you can imagine whatever is not there. Just that for me, siege engines are a minor thing that I don't really feel the need in this game. I prefer the battles continue involving just hordes of soldiers, archers, cavalry, undeads, demons, big mythologic monsters of all kind, animals, powerful mages... it is enough for me, and we can already do much to improve just those things ^_^

Re: Seige engines for Dom3
 

Not a fan of this idea at all.

I have made 'war machines' of a sort for a couple of mod nations, but they work in much the same way as existing units like crushers, chariots, fire drakes, archers etc.

Warmachines, not Seige Engines.
 

Well, don't forget that this thread was spawned by the oceania thread, which dealt with, and applied to, only a special group of nations. So maybe only a certain group of nations would gain access to this line of Construction summons?

And trebuchets? How are they small and mobile? small ballistas, small catapults, serpentines, yes, like the ones the Romans would build on the spot, and units of that scale, but not huge vast towers. Think in terms of a chariot.

Re: Warmachines, not Seige Engines.
 

I hate to have to keep redefining this, because I don't want to confuse people, but I was hoping people would pick up on the *spirit*/intention of the thread being the same as the Improving Oceania thread.

Sombre, you managed to get it, even if you don't realize it. That's exactly what I'm talking about-nothing crazy, no completely different units or play from anything that's already in the game, just ideas for more units like the Crusher and other mechanized units already in the game, to expand the Construction school. Nothing balance-destroying, and I'm fine with it being restricted to certain nations or whatever. But what units that involve some form of technology can we come up with that would be reasonable assets on the battlefield?

Re: Warmachines, not Seige Engines.
 

I always sort of assumed that the seige weapons were abstracted out. I mean there's that one hero for Arco that's just an old guy, and yet he has a seige bonus, you can't really say that he himself walks up to the enemy walls and beats the hell out of them. Seige weapons wouldn't be much good in a real fight anyway, so we just don't see them when your generals build them in the field whenever they lay seige to an enemy fortification or whatever.

I do thing summonable seige defences (or weapons for that matter) in the construction are a good idea though, provided they're more than just a catapult. I mean someone said that all we'd have are earth summons, but not if you get creative. You could have fire summons that are immobile brassiers(sp?) of elemental fire that do nothing but hurl fireballs at attackers, you could have a fire/death banefire version of the same, you could have vines that repair the walls or just strangle people to death. You could have a water summon that autocasts that friendly currents spell. You could have all kinds of stuff.

If you really want to get nuts, instead of having it be an immoble summon like the watcher (that 50 patrol bonus statue air summon), you could have it function like a dome that takes shots at any seiging army or repairs the castle or whatever and requires an investment of gems to maintain. Naturally that'd take new rules which means that the developers would need to get on board, but hey, a guy can dream.

Re: Warmachines, not Seige Engines.
 

Ok, so like no seige engines. Can we please get past this? Warmachines, not seige engines. Sigh.

Re: Warmachines, not Seige Engines.
 

I think you have some great ideas there, TheMenacer. I especially like your strangle vines idea. Great for Pangaea. The Fire Brazier would be a nice one for Abyssia, too.

Re: Warmachines, not Seige Engines.
 

I think the reason we don't see a lot of war machines and siege engines in the game is because it is implied they are built on site.

A 1000 militia don't deplete a castle's defense by standing outside. I always imagined the idea is if there are more people besieging, there are more people building and utilizing siege equipment, which is why a city falls faster to 1000 people than 100 people. If not for siege engines, really it wouldn't matter if there were 10000 people outside unless the idea is they are chipping away at the stones with their swords or standing on each others shoulders to get in.

What has really always bugged me is the idea of besieging underwater fortresses. Really, can't swim over the top of that kelp fortress? come on.

If by war machines you mean something else, then i apologize http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif

Re: Warmachines, not Seige Engines.
 

There are thousands of stinging jellyfish rooted to the top of the kelp fortress. That is why you cannot go over the top.

Re: Warmachines, not Seige Engines.
 

No I'm basically talking about more and varied units for summoning, in the Construction path. Things militaries with the know-how could build, plus what can be done with magic and Dom3 attuned imagination. That's pretty much it.

I never meant for the whole seiging process to be expanded-it's fine the way it is. Ofcourse, the right summons could make storming a castle a lot easier, or a lot more difficult, but I'm leaning towards what's going to be the most fun-storming castles = fun (to me). Sitting around for 6 months trying to outstarve your enemy = not that much fun.

Re: Warmachines, not Seige Engines.
 

but then you start to make const overpowered; the stuff it's got is already pretty nice.

Re: Warmachines, not Seige Engines.
 

Oh, and on Foodstamp's point about the soldiers standing around chipping at the wall with their spears, I always thought that might be the case. It would go something like this right here <-

There\'s room for new stuff.
 

Consider a unit that represented an archer or crossbowman shooting through an oversize shield, for instance -- it could have poor mobility, poor defense, but very high parry reflecting resistance to missile fire. Not too freaky.

Freakier would be giving that unit a #secondshape with no mobility or attacks, mindlessness, and somewhat reduced parry to represent an abandoned and damaged shield (dead archer). It might still be useful for a size-2 unit to enter that square, but I'd have to check the missile targeting rules.

More magically, fire-spitting machines aren't too freaky, and there's already the fire + water = acid theme, so short-range acid-lobbing (perhaps big cauldrons with a one-shot short-range acid breath; likewise for nature/poison; minimal hp + second-shape into a low-morale crew running away?) might be thematic. Water might lead to an Earth Meld effect. Allowing a construction to cast Rain of Stones might be a bit harsh, but hmm...

Re: There\'s room for new stuff.
 

I kind of think that siege engines are abstracted into the breaking the gates routine. Siege engines were pretty rare until the medieval era: before then it was generally a lot of hard slog with the odd ballista. And there's already Iron Walls and Crumble.

I wouldn't mind maybe little upgrades: say paying another 100-200gold and getting towers that fire stuff that actually has a decent chance of damaging the besieging army. Say little 5-range flame strikes near the gate to represent boiling oil being poured out. But really, none of it is very crucial.

Re: There\'s room for new stuff.
 

Hey, about this. I don't remember, does Flaming Arrows affect the arrows coming from a fort's towers?

Re: There\'s room for new stuff.
 

No units that can help in fights.. just units which give a siege bonus would be much better.. in battle it would be a slow moving unit with a shot every 4 turns and low precision. (basicly waiting to be destroyed in break siege if not defended well enough)

Re: There\'s room for new stuff.
 

You know Badger, I think this thread really needs a title change, so people stop worrying about actual siege equipment. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

I wish the mechanics worked differently - I'd so love to see a large mobile unit with actual missile fire available in the same turn it moves. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif

Re: There\'s room for new stuff.
 

Yeah, I'm thinking the same thing, Jim.

Re: There\'s room for new stuff.
 

I've explained how to do that a couple of times in the mod forum. The Doomwheel skaven unit uses mod commands to allow this, as does the War Wagon in my unreleased empire mod. The work perfectly 90% of the time.

Re: There\'s room for new stuff.
 

Is there a way to rename a title? Can some benevolent moderator rename it to "Warmachines" or something?

Re: There\'s room for new stuff.
 

If you edit the "Subject" line at the top of the first post, doesn't that change the title of the thread? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

Re: There\'s room for new stuff.
 

I changed it for you HB, but you could have edited it yourself as Jim pointed out by editing your initial post. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: There\'s room for new stuff.
 

I tried, a couple of times, but for some reason it wouldn't allow me to do it. My work computer has weirdnesses.

Thanks Ballbarian http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Warmachine
 

MA Ulm needs Steam Tanks!