A fourth age
 

what to call it? Post Age? PA? I dunno.

there is so much good stuff in the Early Modern Period to draw inspiration from. (for clarification, EMP is 1500 to 1800. note that LA human nations tend to be inspired from real history right up to the EMP.)

The Ottoman Empire, and all the stuff happening in that area of the world.

American colonies, and all their unique politics, myth, and folklore.

Antillean colonies, and all their unique politics, myth, and folklore; especially voodoo and slave-colonizer interaction creating cultures of subterfuge and subverted hatred from both master and slave, creating a strong practice of magical herbalism and voodoo, with poisoning and ritual dance and sacrifice, along with marronage and affrichesment. (very unlike the much more hypo-slavery of the later americas)

South american colonies, and the bastard combination of catholicism and native traditions.

hell, there's so much good stuff. some of the LA nations could even be stretched into it; same way many EA and MA nations are creatively stretched into LA.

not that I'm not happy with what there is, it was just a thought. I'm kind of a fan of EMP folklore. the clash, separation, and recreation of culture that was happening at that time made for the advent of more and deeper myth and folklore than the world had seen for hundreds of years.

Re: A fourth age
 

Definetly. Go with the idea.

There have been efforts at creating another age.
My chaos maps such as "Poke in the Eye"
http://www.dom3minions.com/downloads.htm
I refer to as being Age Zero or Pre-Early Age. When thousands of pretenders roamed the planet still trying to settle into specific nations. Total insanity.

There are various MODs which create Age 4 nations. Ulm gone techno, Nations of Knights, Samurai, Jewish, American Indian, etc. It might be fun to incorporate a bunch of them together, fix any conflicts in ID numbers, and create a 4th age mod that puts them all into the game along the line of the "11 Nations" mod.

Re: A fourth age
 

How about 5 ages?

Here's what I wrote a while back about possible names for the various Ages, including 1 before and 1 after the three we have now.

The Dawning Age (before the current early age), Age of Miracles (early age), Age of Heroes (middle age), Age of Iron and Gold (late age), and Age of Wisdom (future age).

Re: A fourth age
 

Hmmm Wisdom (priests) replace Magic (mages)?

Dawning would work I guess. Do you feel that applies to my anarchy scripting of maps (like Poke in the Eye)?

Re: A fourth age
 

Well, at the time, I was thinking the "Wisdom" gained by whomever managed to survive the rather apocalyptic Late Age. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/cool.gif So, nations by that time would have been defined by having smarter, rather than more powerful tactics, hatred for demons, undead, illithids, etc. and generally being slightly less evil.

The Dawning Age was supposed to low on humans, with lots of prehistoric creatures and cultures, very strong Independents, and very powerful, but less subtle, magic.

Re: A fourth age
 

Well I had the strong independents. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif
Every independent province had the chance to have gods, and even multiple pretenders, running around.

Personally I always thought of 4th age as being
Battle of Pantheons based on the large games tending to be won by alliances. But thats probably a spinoff of my RPG thinking about the game.

Re: A fourth age
 

Late Age is rather "after Ragnarok".

Re: A fourth age
 

Here's, cleaned up a bit, what I originally wrote about the Dawning Age:

Technology is Late stoneage through copper to early bronze age, low magic as peoples first start coming together into nations (IRL something approximating the conditions between 14,500-6000 years ago). Undead always have stone or at best copper weapons, and no metal armor. Research ability is always locked in to very slow in this age, with low-powered mages overall, except for magical beings with strong affinities for a single path. Few sorceresses/rainbow mages, if any.

Cavemen and lizardmen replace humans as the dominant race, and lizardmen shamans are some of the better multi-path mages around. Humans are almost nowhere to be found-no random human independents. Of the handful of humans around, a large percent of the population have the ability to Watershape into dolphins. Monkeys and apes are everywhere, just to tick off the Creationists . Icthytosians and a race of intelligent crab-people (1: I couldn't resist, 2: they could be done in a way that I think would be cool, and 3: they could represent a nation in this era with good Prot.) are dominant in the oceans-Mermen are present, but not a dominant race, and some of them have been pushed out of the water permanently by stronger species-a few humans dwell among them-suggesting them as our evolutionary ancestors. Many independent provinces are guarded by SC monsters and powerful prehistoric beasts.

While magic is still on the rise, units are in general even more powerful individually than they currently are in Early Age. Jotun nations have access to recruitable trolls and more Niefel giant heroes. the Nephilim are present. Treelords are alive and well and in the prime of their power, as are the Courts of Faerie. Kailasan Devas, Devatas, Rakshasas, etc. are also in the full of their power-including the more powerful 4 armed breeds as recruitables-and don't yet employ monkeys. A Pre-C'tus Lizardman nation has access to huge, powerful dinosaurs, Caelum units average larger in size and employ large, vicious, flightless birds called Axe-Beaks. Mammoths are now controlled by a blood-magic caveman nation led by ogre kings who can shapeshift into giant bears. Agarthans and Fomorians start in the oceans, while Atlantis starts on land. Hydras are amphibious, and are worshipped by a merman nation with some pure human recruitables and shambler recruitables (suggesting Shamblers as an offshoot of humans, which atleast gives Shamblers a certain pathos, helping them to be a step above the "big dumb amphibous spearfodder" they usually end up being) There is also a nation of Elder Things (ala H.P Lovecraft-"At the Mountains of Madness") who are the most magically advanced at this time (The other nations stole the finer secrets of magic from them after their nation collapsed.) and have bonuses when using Crossbreeding and Advanced Crossbreeding. Thematically, they are supposed to be the originators of many of the most bizarre races in Dom 3-they create, for instance, Shuggoths, which will feature in this age. Aboleths exist basically unchanged. Tien'Chi is an empire of the undead and spirits ruled by Pennanggalan (a breed of vampires who can remove their own heads at night-the heads then fly around and bite victims) and various celestial demons-a bit like Late Age Ermor in practice, but ofcourse considerably more Asian-flavored. There are no longbows, crossbows, recurve bows, etc. in the game, except as forged items. Shortbows and crude shortbows are present and fairly widespread, as are javelins and harpoons. The Atlatl is the dominant missle weapon technology, enabling javelins to be hurled 2xstrength. Slings are ubiquitous. Swords are rare and short, axes, maces, knives, and spears are much more widespread. Tridents, glaives, and other polearms are almost non-existent. Calvalry is also rare, especially horse-calvalry (where present, it consists of units riding ponies-no kick). Tower shields are non-existant except as forged items. Wardogs are prevalent, chariots are present but rare. Apes are not the only ones who hurl sticks and stones-this is a common practice and some units specialize in this.

Re: A fourth age
 

Battlemechs Age?
Post-Nuclear Apocalypse Age anyone? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/cool.gif

Re: A fourth age
 

I'm in favour of any age that actually gets made and works, but I'm dead set against hypothetical ages that get talked about but no-one does anything ;]

Re: A fourth age
 

Hey, I'm making mod nations without an actual computer to even play them on, what more do you want? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif

Re: A fourth age
 

It isn't that I'm demanding people make mods, I'm just a little weary of the talk to action ratio around here sometimes. I know coming up with ideas is worthwhile, but there comes a point where it would be far more worthwhile to actually act on some of them. It seems like even the simplest easiest stuff to do which people are talking about they aren't willing to put the half an hour of effort into getting working (or finding out if it can work) but they are interested in making long posts about it.

It's especially aggravating when people start talking about mod commands that should be added for example, when they aren't making any use at all of the mod commands that are already there.

/vent

Re: A fourth age
 

True enough.
But there is also something to be said for making use of the pure idea people who are willing to give up ideas to anyone else who wants to make them happen. Some people arent into what goes with finishing the project. The credits, the comments, the updating and maintaining.

My hands are full with the Dom3 projects Im already doing but I dont mind adding to an idea conversation. And I definetly do not mind that most of the projects that I have done in the past (maps, mods, scripts, programs) have been taken up by someone else and carried forward. Anything I post to the forums here is pulic domain ideas for anyone who is more capable than they are creative and needs a project.

Re: A fourth age
 

True enough. And you have been a very big contributor.

But there is also something to be said for making use of the pure idea people who are willing to give up ideas to anyone else who wants to make them happen. Some people arent into what goes with finishing the project. The credits, the comments, the updating and maintaining.

My hands are full with the Dom3 projects Im already doing but I dont mind adding to an idea conversation. And I definetly do not mind that most of the projects that I have done in the past (maps, mods, scripts, programs) have been taken up by someone else and carried forward. Anything I post to the forums here is pulic domain ideas for anyone who is more capable than they are creative and needs a project.

Re: A fourth age
 

I do understand, Sombre, and I know that I'm probably the biggest antagonist. But, there's literally only so many mods a single person can make, and unlike yourself, I'm not very good or very fast about it. So my position is that, if I can't make a mod myself in a given period of time, then atleast I want to get the ideas out there for other people to harvest, and be influenced by.

Amos-another superb mod maker-was saying just a few weeks back about how he'd run out of ideas, because everything has been done. I just don't agree with that.

Re: A fourth age
 

Anybody is free to use any of my ideas, especially if they're willing to give me credit, but even that isn't really necessary, since I'm usually influenced by 10 different things, myself. It gives my ego a warm fuzzy though http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: A fourth age
 

concept:

A nation based off the Haitian politics and folklore from 1500 - 1700. The concept is a little odd, as it would be largely comprised of mages and assissins with the Heretic ability, similar to Pyth; inspiration for these is obviously the African slaves in Haiti, especially the voodoo and other folklore. Other commander recruits would be weak priests and mounted commanders, as well as stealthy 'mulatto' mounted commanders who aren't heretics. All heretic troops are stealthy and most use poison of some sort.

I know this sounds odd, but keep in mind that Haiti was a French colony with very little French. It was separated from the crown and courts, and no French actually wanted to spend time there. Slaves then were treated with brutal violence by whatever sadist landlords would want to be there, and the only people that wanted to be there were the ones who found some pleasure in this. Additionally, without much French presence, slaves were able to roam freely and often obtain freedom by simply running away to a neighboring town; along they way they would steal clothes, pistols, and a horse so that they could ride into town. Doing this they would hope to convince the townspeople that they were a freeman who could afford these things. Additionally, the lack of French meant the few whites there would often take African mistresses, and birth many mulatto children, who were often in a torn position between white master and black slave. voodoo formed as a means of resistance among the slaves, and largely involved the parodying of French Catholicism. Slaves would often sacrifice animals, place them in a coffin, and have white priests perform rights on the slaughtered animal (the priest wouldn't bother opening the coffin, because it was just a slave, and would be fooled into doing what was essentially an unholy act by their own standards). voodoo was also a means of slaves 'fighting back', even if they were only fighting the spirit world. totems and dolls were a large part of this in the religion, of which the 'voodoo doll' is a somewhat overdrawn cliche. herbalism was also a very integral part of the religion, and voodoo practitioners were supposed to be able to make deadly poisons from herbs, although it is likely the toxicity of their concoctions came not from the herbalism, but from arsenic, which was often supplied to them by free blacks. ritual dancing was also part of voodoo, and blacks would often leave plantations at night to participate.

I want these types of themes to figure into this nation. the only way i can think of doing it is as a 'heretic' nation. that seems somewhat paradoxical, but it was pulled off with Pyth, so it is what I would like to do with this nation. i've tried to begin drawing up some commanders, starting the the more powerful voodoo mage priests. however, i will need to pull out my books on haitian history and look up some details and get some ideas for names.

Re: A fourth age
 

I think a fourth age would be pretty nice, not only because who can complain about having more stuff to blow things up with, but because I think it'd help define the nations a little better. There're a bunch of nations floating around the early ages that I don't think really fit the mold, like Maverni and Tien'Chi that don't boast the tech to be in later ages, but don't have the mythical feel of the other EA nations. Granted, they have the same high-powered, capitol-centric mages of the other EA nations, but ultimately those awesome mages are just regular dudes with higher numbers than their later incarnations.

EA nations that I think really fit the mold have things like nonhuman recruitables, with bonus points if they aren't just some other species, but something really mystical in origin. They should just overall have a real feel of the uncanny about them, that this was a time far in the past where magical crap rubbed shoulders with the common man on a daily basis. Humans should have low level access to magic at best unless they're really above and beyond their fellow man, perhaps as unique hero units. An age slipped between early and middle would be something like those largely magical nations having fallen, giving primitive humans the opportunity to scavenge their secrets, and then the remaining two ages are as they already are, increasing levels of technology with decreasing levels of magic.

Edit: Roughly I'm thinking the progression should be
Magical Beings with the occasional mortal thrown in ---> Mortals with tons of magic ---> Mortals with less magic ---> Mortals with very little magic at best

Re: A fourth age
 

How about a nice mod option (please, devs?) to create whatever set of "ages" we want? You could have LOTR Middle Earth ages, some weird age mod where everything is set in space, and provinces are really planets, or whatever you dream up.

Re: A fourth age
 

OMG I want to do a space battle game. I may just have to learn how to mod now, that seems so exciting. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif

Re: A fourth age
 

Alright, my thoughts for a fourth age nation; the bastard child of Ulm and Marignon.

Model: the 30 Years War and the wars in and around the Reformation.

Guns? Well, maybe an armor-nullifying 1/3 turn fire arquebus, -1 precision and medium-range.

Some Ulm-style heavily-armored units- but armor is starting to be reduced in the face of firearms. Truckloads of pikemen. Zweihanders. Landsnecht with 1-shot pistols.

Fitting with the reformation theme (priesthood of believers,etc), most of these units have a recruit-anywhere sacred version. Same statistics, except maybe +1 morale. Balance it by raising the costs to recruit. "Devout Zweihander", "Devout Arquebuser", etc.
"In the turmoil and bloodshed of the coming of the new god, devout followers and fanatics are to be found in all walks of life in Ulm."

Should be a capitol only sacred- maybe stealthy troops that work with the spy/assassin?

Fanatic/Ranter- lvl 1 priests with stealth and spy.
Theologians- lvl 2? priests with random level 1 (100% FAES+ 10% FAES) magic. Close to old age. Research bonus or penalty? (Bookish, but do they have a research-hindering attitude?)
Natural Philosopher- Capitol-only mages. 2 levels of random magic (100% chance FAWEN times 2+ 10% FAWESN, research bonus). Immune to drain scale.
Capitol-only spy/assassin.
Capitol-only cannon. Hellaciously expensive. 1% chance of exploding each time they fire (which is only 1/3 rounds)

Heroes:
Melancthon- With a misshapen head and a weak body, he is the greatest of Ulm's theologians, and a powerful earth mage to boot.
Maxwell Oldtown- Genius inventor. Stat him like the maker of the maze but young and with a research bonus.
Götz von Berlichingen- Mercenary knight with the iron hand. Just a tough, skilled guy with good leadership. Maybe awe and an iron-hand zero-range attack.

Re: A fourth age
 

Space battles, Dom3 style, would be a hell of a lot of fun.
For instance, instead of water nations and land nations, you've got, say, normal space and hyperspace, with some nations able to cross between the two. Each province would be a planet, and gems would be substituted for rare resources, like anti-iron. Units become ships, space monsters are easy, sites would need some extensive reworking, but the maps themselves I would think would be a lot of fun to design (round "provinces", instead of mountains, asteroid fields, forests become organic infestations or Gaia-type planets, whatever). Forged items...I dunno how they'd be handled, but instead of regular helmets, armour, etc. you'd have various weapon and defense systems, special abilities, whatever. Spells become futuristic special technologies, summoned units become special projects. Stealth is pretty self-explanatory, but seduction becomes computer override.

It would ofcourse be a huge amount of work for one person to design, but the possibilities are wide open, and a space scenario, done well, could probably outdo MOO2.

Re: A fourth age
 

Yes, the -possibilities- really got my imagination moving. Total lack of modding experience, and realization of the scope (the fact that the entire game would need to be redone, even if the shell would be capable of doing this), started to stack up fast as a big disadvantage.

What I had been envisioning was "systems", that would be a cluster of planets, so that "starbases (castles) would get a good resource bonus. However, between the systems, would be "deep space", which would be like water provinces. So all actual starships would be amphibious, transport carriers could have "sailing", and atmospheric forces would of course be necessary for true control of any given systems.

I'm not sure the gem types can be changed in name, but imagination can cover that, Dilithium Crystals, Antimatter, Indurium, all the fantastic materials needed for space warfare. And of course, a totally new array of items, analogous to technological upgrades. BUT, there could in fact be magic in this scenario as well..... indeed, some people would actually want to convert it to a Spelljammer scenario (I never got into that one myself), but actual "magic" could play a part in the universe to a lesser or larger degree depending on the types of "spells" one wanted to include in the mod.

Oh and you left out: Assassination = Sabotage! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

The options are staggering..... Maybe I'll break out of my daydream reverie to actually try to start on it. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif

Re: A fourth age
 

I would say creating the specifics, writing the texts, balancing, and doing the sprite work is 95% of the actual work involved in a Dom3 mod.

I'd wager the actual writing of the mod is cakewalk compared to actually developing the content.

Re: A fourth age
 

Screw balance. IMHO
We have plenty of balanced mods now. Its time for some unbalanced ones. Bigger Badder AIs.

Re: A fourth age
 

Maybe we could design it together, Jim-I don't really want to tackle something like that alone, honestly I'd never finish it-I've got so many unfinished projects and half-conceived ideas as it is.

I could do some graphics though, and I've got atleast the experience of 1 mod nation under my belt. So I'd be happy to help and supply advice, if it's something you're really interested in, and want to commit to.

Re: A fourth age
 

Well, I think it could be an incredible amount of fun not only to play, but to build.

But it is a bit scary - it's not just 1 race, but an entire universe! Would need at least 10 "species" to play I think, and a full array of items and spells, plus at least one map to start.

Maybe if we poke around we can find a third team member, and it will all start to look more plausible, in our lifetime. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif I do have an awful lot of spare time, but I'll need a lot of help/supervision to do it right. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

Re: A fourth age
 

It would be MoO 4 ^^

Maybe Dom3's engine is not the most perfectly fitting for a project like this.
But indeed it would be fun ^^

Re: A fourth age
 

I'd like to be that third team member http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif I haven't even touched the modding guide yet, but I'm sure I could try, and even if I can't, I could at least help with ideas and concepts.

Re: A fourth age
 

As long as you're only discussing things, everything's going to be fine. Actually starting the project will probably cause lots of trouble. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

Re: A fourth age
 

Ancient Age maybe. more ancient than the early age.

Re: A fourth age
 

Mmmmm.

Your pee is the perfect accent for these cornflakes. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif

Re: A fourth age
 

I won't hold my breath for it, but good luck and I hope you get it done.

Re: A fourth age
 

Jim, you can put me down for graphics, and general advice. I can also do descriptions and come up with some ideas for nations, etc.

Re: A fourth age
 

Okay! Let's see if we act serious, if someone with even more experience comes along to at least provide over-arching guidance. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif


Dominions 3000 Design Team:

JimMorrison Team Lead and Comic Relief
HoneyBadger Graphic Design and Creative Concepts
Darkwind Enthusiastic Inspiration and Assistant to the Comic Relief


Ohhh, we're shaping up right and proper already! We might become scary if someone with real modding experience shows up. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/redface.gif

Re: A fourth age
 

Ok, first of all, are we going to continue the whole Dominions style of basing our nations on real world culture? In that case, we would want to use real science fiction, instead of mythology. That could be a lot of fun for me, to research and come up with ideas for.

Re: A fourth age
 

Actually, I figured we could have some great fun brainstorming ideas. They don't necessarily have to be stock sci-fi ideas, although a few (many of them?) likely will be. I'm also wondering what we'd call the gems, and how we'd deal with the globals. If I remember correctly, the globals are uneditable. I might be thinking too far ahead though.

Also, I'm thinking we should move this discussion to a thread. PMs might work, but then we wouldn't be able to get any input from everyone else, would we? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

Re: A fourth age
 

Well the only problem we run into there, is the whole "copyright" issue that was recently brought up on these forums. Most of our Sci-Fi lore is actively under copyright, as opposed to the ancient mythologies which anyone can copy as closely as they like.

Be that as it may, I think that certain amount of deviation could be done to base races on many pop culture creations to avoid any claims of direct derivation.


And you're right DW, we need to keep this discussion public, to drum up interest, and hopefully bring more people onto the team so that this can all come together.

As far as the gems go, I'm not sure the names are in an accessible place for modding, so that is one place that imagination would be required - especially considering if someone uses "Blood" magic, they will have girls in robes flying around their spaceships. >.> Well no I'm sure we can change that, but still. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif

Re: A fourth age
 

We don't have to worry about copyright laws, because it'll be a mod. You can mod whatever you'd like. We could call it "Star Wars: The Trekkening" and it wouldn't matter.