Erk, Culture shock
 

Ok so my last game of MBT was some time ago (maybe even a version 2.something) however me and a mate decided to patch up to date and have a PBEM.

That was a Shock to the system. Rooski Tanks now seem damn near untouchable. I've fired off nearly every AT round my chally company carries, and barely seem to have scratched the surface. I quite quickly worked out that anything over 1000m is going to bounce off anything other than a T-62, most of the time.

Infantry seem to have suddenly become more vulnerable and move like old people ski. Very slowly! Maybe too slowly, as a dismounted attack through woods now seems impracticable.

If only our gentleman's agreement of "No MLRS" was rescinded.

This isn't a complaint, just a comment on V4 culture shock. Especially the Tanks. those Damn commies used to be killable. Oh well next time its change ends, US Vs My rooski horde, that's going to be even more horrid.

Edit: I take it back, you need to be under 500m to kill a T-80.

Re: Erk, Culture shock
 

Which Challenger, and which T-80?.

Using solid shot, the 120mm L30 94 gun on unit No 27 will kill most later model T-80 (about 70 or 69 frontal armour) to 1750 metres, and possibly out to 2250 on rare occasions. And the earlier ones with 60 and 50 something frontal aspect, to 3000-3500.

The earlier 120mm tank gun (No 102, 84 model) will deal with the contemporary armoured ones (B/BV) to slightly over 1 KM. (45 at 1 km, with occasionally up to 50). best 47 at 1500, so it could do a T-80BV at that range against the turret, on occasion, and the HEAT (HESH) will deal with those models at all ranges, if it gets a good roll (no fuse failures etc) and the ERA is not triggered. The 1998 "U" model T-80 is somewhat difficult from the front...

Best HEAT performance will be about 80 - so the Russian advanced armours get frontally impenetrable by that in about the late 80s or early 90s.

Of course - we have the L30 CHARM 120mm available from 1994, but if anyone knows different, it could be moved back a year or 2 to deal with the T-80U. Or, the L11A5 could do with a bit more "poke" - if you have any info, please feel free to share.

Naturally - if you fight to their flanks, then side shots (at low angles of attack) will whack them at any useful range. The best steel side is about 26 - which the 1984 gun will reliably penetrate to 3500 metres. So try to get them into a "U" shaped kill sack http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif!.

Cheers
Andy

Re: Erk, Culture shock
 

Heh, most of the T-64BV's where disabled by mobility kills at about 2Km.

It's 85ish we're fighting and I believe he's using T-80U's. Although much to my chagrin I've just had my turn and punted 4 Rounds of Fin into the front of a T-80(with some letters after its name) at 100m with a hight advantage to me, and failed to nail the bugger. The Armour penetration was the same each time! 53 Vs 54.

What was really curious was the fact the Points values for the T-80U is almost The same as the Chally1, and yet the T-80 gets EDZ and an AT missile. AV's seem to be roughly similar though. Although the Chally does get TI.

The Good news is, I've got about a platoon or two that have just finished bombing up at an Ammo Depot, and we're into the Knife fighting phase, and I suspect he's running out of operational tanks...or at least I hope he is!

Another thing we've (yeah both of us thought it independently) noticed is that EDZ seems to be binary. One turn it'll stop everything in sight, Other turns it does nothing. There seemed to be no middle ground in a turn. But that could just be human Selective memory.

Edit: I did have a very good article bookmarked about CHARM rounds. Dunno where it is though. I can find you some details on a British XL-40 though... please can I have one of them on my Chally? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n...00/140mm-2.jpg

http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n...00/140mm-1.jpg

(See those tiny little 9milly sabot's lying around the tank shell? Those are CHARM rounds http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif )

Re: Erk, Culture shock
 

I got to say I'm beginning to think that Infantry are too weak.

As they're far to slow for manoeuvre in terrain now, and far to easy to beat up. I've just gone through a dug infantry position in woods with a column of unsupported T-62's. My opponent did exactly the same only with T-64's in a previous game.

It just seems that before hand if you tried to charge Ala Israel Yom Kipour war style in woods with armour you should lose the an awful lot. So far I've lost about a platoon of tanks for shoving a dug in US rifle platoon out of its position.

It all seems far to easy.

Re: Erk, Culture shock
 

Might have a harder time against a platoon of equal morale and skill, but with RPG's due to RPG longer range? Though might not be such an issue in a forest. However I managed in one PBEM to put out of service a platoon of Leo 2A4's with a platoon of sacrificed unsupported infantry, leaving two immobilised Leos for flank shots from T-72's once they arrived and with most of the infantry surviving. But of course, infantry are slow to move and are easily outmaneuvred by mechanised force.

Re: Erk, Culture shock
 

The ONLY change to infantry movement in the last few years was made to movement in built up urban areas. Nothing else except for slopes which count extra going up but not down whereas in the past they counted extra both ways. The end result is moving through forest generally costs two hexes per turn the same as it did in Version 1

Actually what you have proven is this:

We have reached the stage where no matter what we do SOMEBODYwill complain they liked it the way it was before so further change is pointless as it will only generate further complaint http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif

Don

Re: Erk, Culture shock
 

Wasn't complaining as such, just making an observation. Sorry if it came over like a complaint.

Look at it this way, If I wasn't happy would I be playing endless streams of PBEM's with a mate? Would I have put all those many hours into the LZ X-ray campaign too? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: Erk, Culture shock
 

In some of my battles, i could swear some cheap rebel infantry were not made of flesh.
I always remember that random battle in which i had an AH64 gunning with its chaingun and firing his hydras 70, turns after turns on an enemy squad on a forest border without them getting any casualties.

At least they were pinned down, but it was impressive to see them taking that much punishment without any kind of loss.
In the preferences you can change the infantry thoughness and the tanks thoughness, for both side or only 1 if you want.
It really makes a difference.

Now something you need to remember is that while a tank may be able to destroy in few time lot of infantry, if you lose that tank in one of the firefights with the troops, in the end of the game, you could have lost the battle.

In term of points, losing a tank can cost you so much that you may not be able to get more than a draw.

That's why i do not "charge" with my tanks in battle anymore without having the infantry exploring the terrain first, as in the various random battles i setup, i learnt how much losing the heavyweights due to some unseen AT launcher or ATGM can prevent me to obtain what i think often to be at least a marginal victory.

Re: Erk, Culture shock
 

I'm curious, how do you move them through terrain at anything close to a useful speed? Surely advancing at one hex a turn means your attack grinds along and is a sitting duck for arty, and runs the risk of timing out?

Re: Erk, Culture shock
 

Hard to describe, but if used properly, foot infantry can advance quite swiftly - best thing would be playing few "infantry only" PBEM - say infantry has to be foot, only limited transpoort and armored assets...

Re: Erk, Culture shock
 

Just use mechanised infantry. With some cheap APCs that are barely more expensive than trucks.

Re: Erk, Culture shock
 

It is much more fun with trucks and not for all your infantry force http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif You have to plan more when, how and where to use them, where to deploy reserves, how to evade even light artillery and mortars... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: Erk, Culture shock
 

It's not the low armor (none) that troubles me so much with trucks, as the extremely poor mobility in bad terrain.

Re: Erk, Culture shock
 

The more you are forced into really employing foot maneuvers with your grunts. Plus they may shoot only with what they carry along, no MG from battle taxi to support them.

Re: Erk, Culture shock
 

Artillery is a big problem for every kind of strategy one can plan, as you never know if the opposite side will target what they can spot or will make "random" arty missions and sometime devastate well hidden moving troops he never ever saw (on a PBEM a friend nearly killed 2 of my infantry squads and suppressed some more like this, without even knowing it http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif ).

So as i hide my tanks in the beginning while having my infantry going forward (either on foot or on apc/ifv/truck), if the opposite side will plan arty missions on what he is spotting, it will rain on the infantry.

If i notice the artillery landing near my tanks, it is at 99% of of those random missions based on luck/wishfull guesses, and there i will move my tanks, as luck is a factor that did not always favored me before in SP:MBT http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

Timing out and moving pace is not a real problem for me :
-I don't play scenario based on few turn and huge maps that would force me to basically rush as quick as possible to the objectives and lose tanks without being able to prevent it (and so lose the win victory points conditions).
Playing on pure luck (rushing on the objective hoping the enemy will miss or the shell does not penetrate) is way too random for me.

-For the map size i usually play , there is no problem for slow advancing tanks to reach the objectives before the end of the game.

Basically, all really depends on how the enemy artillery missions will be planned.

But the more i play, the more i use tanks as firing support and not as offensive spearheads, because the loss of points when one tank is destroyed is really too much a penalty on your final score when you play a relative small battle (as it is what i do often in SP:MBT), often preventing you to get better than a draw despite you know the enemy has been beaten.

Re: Erk, Culture shock
 

I must say infantry moving on the modern battle space takes far thought and a lot more luck than in WW2 era battles. Smoke and light conditions, which were the infanteers friend, now make some moves suidical in some cases. Forces which are well matched in the latest vision and sighting equipment seem to mostly end up slaughtering each other. Especially when the opponents have human commanders. PBEM Campaigns may need a surrender or withdrawal feature to stop this, as a real commander would withdraw at more realistic combat losses than 80 plus percent. Sorry another issue for another place. However, don't get me wrong I'm still having a blast!!!

Re: Erk, Culture shock
 

You cannot withdhraw via map edge? Anyway, if your forces are in such a disarray you are unable to pull out a fighting withdhrawal to buy time for retreat, it is time for white flag anyway http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: Erk, Culture shock
 

In PBEM campaigns, you should have a "surrender or withdraw" option. Once you decide you need to give up, you retreat to your own baseline, and go onto the grey hexes to move your troops off-map.

Your opponent just may notice this, and try to stop you getting away with it thus necessitating some folks doing a delay mission as a rearguard (use support cannon fodder). And anyone left in a "kettle" might have some problems..

Once the enemy has taken all the objectives, and none of these are contested (no OK status troops within 500 metres AFAIR, and past the half way point), then the game should fail the engagement check and end it there. Now - I have not tested that, but it should happen so. You could always set up a scratch test PBEM campaign and play it against yourself to check that it does in fact work. Let me know the results of your test battle(s) - if the game does not terminate early then I'll need to check the end-of-battle code.

Assuming that it does work as I think it should, you have some options:
A surrender : You agree with your opponent that you will "run away, brave Sir Robin". He agrees not to interfere so that the termination happens reasonably quickly.
A withdrawal : You do not tell your opponent about your "brave Sir Robin" manoeuvre http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif. Or you offer your surrender, but he decides to take no quarter and pursues you anyway http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif!.
A nasty : You offer to surrender and then when he accepts you fall back to reorganise and set up a counter ambush and smack him one. A "False white flag" situation. Don't expect any mercy in succeeding battles, though!.

Cheers
Andy

Re: Erk, Culture shock
 

As for the damage folks are reporting in PBEM campaigns - I think players are perhaps being too aggressive and "gung-ho" when playing against another human.

Time spent in early game recce and manoeuvring for position is seldom wasted. And if you have received too many casualties, try to hold back and play defensively. Fight for the draw. If you are hurting, then stop sticking your dangly bits further into the mangle and see if he continues to push his further into yours?.

This is not some artificial paintball game, where if 11 out of 12 of your team get themselves killed while the remaining guy sneaks round the back and "takes the flag" then his team wins because the flag is everything. Remember - the objectives are worth a maximum of 5250 (21 times 250) points, and that for a defensive game usually. Most VP comes from unit kills, as the whole point of warfare is the destruction of the enemy force, while preserving yours not a fixation on some artificial terrain objectives. The V-hexes are therefore there as a "swing" factor, nice to have provided you have not allowed your force to get badly destroyed.

- Victory hexes are totalled at the end of the game. So you don't have to lemming-charge them like the AI does.

- If you have 50% or a bit more of the V-hexes , you are generally doing fine. He'll have to come to you to get them, so set up a reception committee perhaps?. The AI always tries to go for all the VH locations - and look what happens to it! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif. If you are badly beaten up already - stopping here is advisable, just probe him to keep him honest perhaps.

- If you have less than the above V-hexes, then use the same strategy. Your opponent may do an AI lemming charge, so a reception committee set up may well work for you too!. Especially if you think you are in a healthier casualty position than him.

- If you are in a healthy position, but have trashed his large-ticket items enough, you can get a draw, or even a winning draw without taking many V-hexes (in a meeter none perhaps!) at all. 60 points (usual meeter value) times 21 is about 1200 points - 3 challenger 2, or 12 centurion Mk 3. Take that off him, and he can have all the VH without challenge so long as you rack up more kill VP overall, you will likely draw at least.

Play cautiously & kill him without being killed yourself, let the VH fall into your hands only as low-hanging fruit. I would not have a head-butting session over V-hexes, and only go for these as part of a general sweep-up of an already totally trashed opponent. If doing an assault or advance, you will have to take some - use lots of arty, concentrate on 1 cluster for starters. Only try for the others if your force is not spent taking the first one.

If you preserve your core, you will have less points to waste on fixing, and more points to spend on upgrades or to bank for a future bad hair day. The objective of the PBEM campaign is to score more points than your opponent, so an average of draws are just fine, so long as you get a few more wins overall than he does. Going for broke for the "total victory every battle just like a long campaign versus the AI" syndrome is simply not required. 2 draws and 1 marginal victory in a 3 battle PBEM series means you beat the other guy!.

Cheers
Andy

Re: Erk, Culture shock
 

Oh - and one further point, if you are going to test for early termination. Ensure there are no troops assigned to appear late on in the game or the termination process will not happen till all such off map troops have arrived. So no reinforcements (not a problem in a PBEM test campaign, only in a scenario - to include user campaigns) - but no para drops plotted for turn 35 of a 40 turn battle either.

Cheers
Andy

Re: Erk, Culture shock
 

Great advice but easier said than done in the heat of battle. I will try the test campaign, and see what happens, I agree in theory it should work. I'm also attempting withdrawal in my present MBT campaign, to see if it will work if it works than I'll jag in the test game. It is ceratinly an option that I've long forgotten to force the battle to end......and man I could use it now!! LOL http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif

Re: Erk, Culture shock
 

Nah, you are doing fine. Keep on fighting, never surrender!!!

Re: Erk, Culture shock
 

Says the Commander presently running though my artillery postions!!

Re: Erk, Culture shock
 

Whoops, I guess it is a bit late for orderly withdhrawal? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Follow up on WD/Retreat Option
 

Retreating off the map. Yes it works, and I'm alive again to fight another day!! MUUHAHAHAHAHa!!!

Thanks for the advise.

Re: Follow up on WD/Retreat Option
 

The Good news is balance is restored, the T-62's have been knocked down from a battalion to a platoon. Due mostly to the Huge range of TOW missiles on every hill around the penetration.

Still doesn't feel right with T-80's being the superior tank, and there being scads of them. Luckily the Rooski Flyboys have decided to help the Americans by dropping a couple of sticks of LGB's on the T-80's (which still did next to nothing).

OUCH!!!!:tough:

Hey its slightly more fun now his M1's are surrounded by Some T-80's and BMP units. His AH-64's got snipped by T-80's. His M551's are getting beaten up by ZSU-34-4's. Add in the amusement of an M1 crew bailing out when hit by a friendly shell splinter, right into the arms of a welcoming Mech Infantry squad.

All In all, I'm doing well enough to forgive some uselessness of the Rooski fly-boys.

Re: Erk, Culture shock
 

Ah the the beauty of the game!! :cool:

Re: Surrender Withdraw
 

I agree this adds a new element to the game, in that if goes badly withdrawl & preservation becomes paramount but a few observations.
Seems to me battle ends once one side controls all victory hexes & the other has suffered high losses, may be based on diffrence between battle values I suppose. A "surrender" button that changes these to a lower level like 90% of all vic hexes & perhaps less losses will stop having to play several turns to reach last vic hex if used shotgun mode. At present end up withdrawing under fire but telling opponent vic hexes are now clear for him to speed up the end. Other option is a surrender option that ends the game but only becomes active once most of your force is destroyed or withdrawn. Tried & at present with 3 units left on map 2 Squads & a crew out of a force of about 130 game refused to end till all vic hexes taken, boring. Had 2 elements of OBA also

Re: Erk, Culture shock
 

Define useful speed. Most players get in to much of a hurry. Even with a max map, you are looking at 160 hexes, which is 80 turns if you can average 2 hexes per turn. Considering you won't start on the near edge nor have to go to the other edge, 30 turns should get you from your LOD to your opponents LOD.
It is like holding the center in Chess. It won't give you a direct win, but it can open up possibilities for other forces.
Does that make it useful?
If you play to the OODA loop, having an Infantry Battalion advancing like a glacier can really mess with your opponents mind. His arty won't be that much of a problem. It will slow you down, but it shouldn't do more then that. Plus you have arty too, I hope.

Re: Erk, Culture shock
 

Yup my M1s got splattered by your airforce. I feel they took out a respectable number of your tanks though considering that the 105 can't hurt them from the front although I did use judicious amounts of smoke and tried to get flank shots where I could. :)

Re: Erk, Culture shock
 

Sounds like there's a good After Action Report here.

Re: Erk, Culture shock
 

As I pointed out, your smoke gave my Infantry hiding in the town plenty of cover to sneak up on you.

Sorry I wasn't keeping notes at the time.