The Bogarus Problem
 

Recently, I've been trying out the cool, cool nation of Bogarus. Thematically, they are great, but choosing the right Pretender design is pretty tricky. Initially, I went with a Rainbow build in order to take cover all of Bog's summons. I ended up trying out all of those national summons and I'm not that impressed with any of the ones that I have to go out of my way to cast. None of the National Water summons are that good and the Leshy is a pretty good thug only in a forest.

Bogarus' military is generally horrible, so another inclination of mine was to go Sloth 3, but I actually think their heavy cavalry is pretty good and if I did that, I'd have no military whatsoever.

I'd definitely go Cold 3 and Growth 3.

Much of my newest round of strategy involves finding all of my high income provinces, setting them to 200% tax, then patrolling in them with the Simargl, which are pretty good patrollers. Also finding all of my higher pop provinces and blood hunting in them while patrolling them as well. I guess I'll god Blood on my Pretender because of this.

What are everyone's thoughts on Chassis/Magicks? I might still go for Nature 4 or 5 for the Leshy. Probably go Blood a little bit. Any suggestions?

Edit: Oh and I'd been going Dormant or Imprisoned, but I've heard most Bogs dont do that for lack of a strong army. Thoughts?

Re: The Bogarus Problem
 

Bogarus is the greatest magic nation in the game. In terms of pure research, they can bust out research faster than anyone. Ever.

That being said, the cav is indeed their only good unit. I found that my initial "province taker" armies actually consisted of two smiters and some Cav.

In general, I'd go Forge Lord with W4/F4 so he can make super cheap Elemental staves and fire items, good scales, and then focus on powerful magery (imprisoned, dom8,Ord3,Prod3,Cold3,Gr3,Mis2,Mag1).

Re: The Bogarus Problem
 

Malarkay,

Many people are of the opinion that Bogarus need an awake god to help early expansion. PoD is not a bad choice.

Add A1 for air shield since high damage missiles are common in LA.

Bogarus has excellent site searchers and so should have high gem income but only E1 available in its recruitable mages. So E2 for your pretender is worthy of consideration to get dwarven hammer through earth boots. This should leave enough design points for a high dominion and good scales.

Don't rely too much on Bogarus' national troops as they are generally inferior to those of other nations. Use your awake pretender to hold off any early invasion and research battle magic quickly.

Re: The Bogarus Problem
 

Not only do you need an awake pretender for expansion, but Bogarus is also on the shortlist of Nations To Rush. I just took them out pretty quickly; would have had their capital at turn 7 if I didn't make a mistake, but had it at turn 9 anyway.

An awake pretender is necessary for Bogarus's survival in the early game so that you actually have a chance to use their awesome magic powers later. Otherwise, they simply have nothing - NOTHING that can stop an early rush by any dunce with a dual bless.

Re: The Bogarus Problem
 

There aren't many nations that can survive a turn 6 Dual Bless rush even with an awake god. I wouldn't be married to that strategy.

Re: The Bogarus Problem
 

One might almost say "there aren't many awake gods that can survive a turn 6 dual-bless rush". http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif

I don't think really the point is to insure you can always "handily defeat" your most likely rushers. But rather, to have a strategy and setup that will hopefully hurt them and slow them down enough, to deter them from screwing their entire game by hitting the speed-bump of your nation. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

Re: The Bogarus Problem
 

Yeah man, at least give yourself a chance. You KNOW that someone is going to come after you... imo you're really going to have to prepare for that somehow and an awake pretender is the only way.

Re: The Bogarus Problem
 

Basically, a Turn 6 god is not even a speedbump since he doesn't have any good equipment yet.


But, considering that in the LA the only real bless nation is Mictlan, I think you can rest easy.

That being said, Bogarus province defense is very good. I just ran a test with twenty dual-blessed jaguar warriors + initial army vs. PD 35, your crap initial archers, and two Smiters and had no problems handily cleaning up Mictlan's troops.

Re: The Bogarus Problem
 

There are lots of "turn 6 gods" that are fantastic fighters. So many that it wouldn't even be very productive to start listing them. But I'd invite others to. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: The Bogarus Problem
 

Mictlan is definitely the *best* of the LA bless rushers, but Midgard, Gath, Patala and T'ien Ch'i all have sacreds good enough to sustain a double-bless rush that will eat Bogarus alive, and they'd be fools not to use it if they're your neighbor. You might also espect a rush out of Ermor, Man or Utgard, since you-have-to-die.

Bogarus can have the Wyrm, Cyclops, Manticore, or any flavor of Dragon. An awake pretender from this list is fearsome in early expansion even without equipment - and, even without equipment, might tip the balance against Man, Utgard, Midgard or Patala. But against Mictlan, T'ien Ch'i, Ermor or Gath, barely a speed bump.

An *equipped* Cyclops is a horse of an entirely different color, also with spikes and machine guns, but that's not possible by turn 6.

Re: The Bogarus Problem
 

Bogarus has a choice of 30 gods, and I note that only 4-6 of them are decent or good SCs. What equipment would you give them on Turn 6 that will make them viable (realize that you have no Earth gems at home and E1 on one flavor of mage)? How much magic would they need?

Basically, they have one choice: an E10 Cyclops with no equipment. He's good, but he won't stand up to any decent Turn 6 Dual-Bless rush wgo can just fatigue him out and crit him to death. Heck, he won't even stand up to a decent amount of crossbowman or calvary.

Re: The Bogarus Problem
 

If you're proposing sending in a god solo and naked to stop double blessed jags you're thinking about it wrong. Another 5 provinces worth of expansion is another 500 or so gold on turn 6, along wth faster resource income to your cap and more indies...another 50 archers in your army is gonna put a dent in a block of 20 jags.

The extra dom from an awake pretender will give you a better chance to have friendly dominion, and that +1 morale is vital when dealing with PD level troops that are just there to die and slow up the assault. Putting a cyclops fresh from +5 dom in the middle of a formation is unlikely to get him killed, but it's keeping 3 jags tied up swinging at a rock instead of slaughtering PD. Having a dragon that can fly around and pick off provinces will do a lot of economic damage...it doesnt't take too long for Bogarus to get up to some nice evo or flaming arrows with their 12 RP mages, so you only have to stop one rush and you're in the game...5 provinces on turn 6 is a pretty big deal, even if your pretender isn't gonna fight off the rush singlehandedly.

Re: The Bogarus Problem
 

You can have an enchanted sword, fire plate, and a pendant of luck on turn 6. Might be too late, but then again might not...

Re: The Bogarus Problem
 

Not the most impressive SC equipment, and it means you shot straight for Con 2 and made everything on Turn 5 to equip on Turn 6. Without equipment, your Turn 6 Cyclops is lucky to not be blind or dead because he hit something surprising that didn't show up like some calvary or crossbowman.

Re: The Bogarus Problem
 

I'm not sure what you are arguing. Should Bogarus players give up on a military counter against the rush since apparently nothing is going to work except diplomacy and the divine pity of their neighbors? Or should they just do whatever they want because there aren't a lot of dual bless rushers in the late age? I'm kidding (a little).

Personally, I would take an awake PoD with D5/E4 and get Con 2 immediately just for the deterrent effect that it might have. Anything less and you may as well have not bothered signing up to play. Maybe you're going to get rolled, but at least you put up a good fight and maybe earned a little respect from your opponent when the next game rolls around.

Re: The Bogarus Problem
 

I'm arguing (probably in vain) that you don't need a poorly equipped SC to beat back an early Bless rush with this nation. They have good province defense, archers, and access to Smiters, and that's a perfectly good counter to Bless Rushers.

In my mind, Awake SC gods are a gamble for people who can't come up with a more reliable strategy. Add that to the fact that it messes with your mid- and endgame, and I just can't recommend it.

Re: The Bogarus Problem
 

So you're saying that you would trade a 50% chance of surviving the early game with a 10% chance of victory, for an 80% chance of surviving the early game, with a 5% chance of victory? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif

I really have to say, there isn't much in the game that will earn less respect from me in the game, than someone running around with an awake PoD. Not that I disrespect those people, but it's like going out and buying yourself a Corvette on your 40th birthday. >.>

Generally in my experience - it's highly improbable to have your awake SC, with dom9-10 and self buffing ability - and also have good enough scales that you can support your conventional army expanding AND have mages for researching and eventual forging. Hell, I have tried out so many builds for 10-12 turns, and depending on quality of neighboring provinces, sometimes a really high scales build has trouble keeping up with mages.

With Cold3, a D5/E4 PoD with 10 dom has 53 design points left over. That's 1 scale. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif So do you go Sloth3 to get Magic1 and Order 3? So your opponent knows, as potentially frightening as your pretender is, you have squat for troops. Yes, you can still claim that the awake PoD is still an effective deterrent. People know that even if they can take you, you can make it costly and painful for them, negating the benefit of performing the early rush. I would think that having large numbers of highly mobile and multi-purpose cavalry units, would be able to provide similar deterrent effect, especially if your research is doing well.

I'm not trying to claim that an awake pretender is never worth it - obviously people often win with them - I am just saying that if your primary incentive is to use it to dissuade people from rushing you out, it's more of a placebo effect in most cases, than anything else. I'd just rather get eliminated by an early rush several times in a row (how improbable would that be?) before finally getting a good solid start, than to spend 2 months playing a nation with gimped scales, clinging to the small shred of a chance that I might actually ultimately win the game.


I guess here is the crux of my argument:

Most of the highly experienced MP vets recommend an awake pretender for Bogarus.

Bogarus has not won a single MP game yet.

Therefore, it seems to me, that playing what looks like the longer odds of going for better scales or a more magically apt pretender, may be the missing link in their success.


I know I'm crazy, but that doesn't interfere with my ability to use the internets! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

Re: The Bogarus Problem
 

You just summed up most of what I was posting, without getting sidetracked with all the gory little details. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif I need to work on that, I get so effuse that I practically beg for someone to pick at my logic, rather than just cleanly laying down a position. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif Good show!

This sounds like an interesting challange
 

What is your Bogarus Pretender and army to stand up to a turn 6 bless.

Wonder if anyone could run it .. like they ran the SC competition...

Re: The Bogarus Problem
 

We can agree to disagree, but try a build like this:

Awake PoD
5 Death
4 Earth
Dominion 10
Order 3
Sloth 1
Cold 3
Growth 1
Luck 0
Drain 2
13 points remaining

Bogarus prefers cold 2 and they are arguably the best nation to take drain with. Their research is insane, and most powerful magic is done with communions so you are in control of your own fatigue situation by using more slaves.

Your starting national troops can only take the easy strength 5 independents. You will probably be supplementing that army rather than building a 2nd expansion force, so all you can hope for is 1 province per turn. If someone sees that you are their neighbor and they take a look at the score graphs, you are dead. An awake PoD doubles your expansion rate, and unlike a cyclops it can fly and pick provinces where the chance of afflictions is lower.

Bogarus' mid-game and end-game are already secure. They just need to survive the first 20 turns, and part of that is convincing your opponents that you're not the easiest target on the map (which you are).

Maybe you're a silver-tongued devil and you can convince your neighbors to leave you alone, or maybe you'd prefer getting knocked out on turn 9 if you can't win the whole thing, but if either is the case Bogarus doesn't sound like your cup of tea anyway.

Re: The Bogarus Problem
 

K,

I am a little confused by your comments.

If you think Bogarus's troops and PD have a good chance of defending itself, then the addition of an awake god must improve that chance substantially. Please bear in mind that the awake god need not fight alone.

On the other hand, if you think Bogarus is not even a speed bump with an awake god, than it would be even less without one.

I am not necessary saying that you are wrong, but you might wish to clarify your seemingly contradictory statements.

Re: The Bogarus Problem
 

Hold your horses. Micah is playing Bogarus now in Artifacts. I would never count him out playing any nation.

Re: The Bogarus Problem
 

I think an undead pretender is a poor choice against a powerful priest bless strategy.

My own submission follows = )

Re: The Bogarus Problem
 

Undead pretenders aren't vulnerable to priest banishings as such but can be suspectible to nastiness if the opposing nations have some Death.

Re: The Bogarus Problem
 

Hey, I'm just saying! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif It would lend a lot of weight to the "Bogarus needs an awake SC" camp, if they had actually won an MP game with that strat. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

But I'm doubting anyone would do an awake pretender in the Artifacts scenario, so best we can hope for there is evidence that the awake SC is NOT needed. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

Unless Micah's idea of an insane prank, is to gear out a -20hp rainbow chassis on turn 2 and go to town. o.O

Re: The Bogarus Problem
 

Kind of begs the question, Jim, how many games have you won with any strategy? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif

Re: The Bogarus Problem
 

Sure. I'm saying that fighting off a dual Bless attacker is going to come from your troops, PD, overall unit placement and strategy, and whatever magic you can muster. An SC pretender is remarkably weak early in the game without the proper equipment, so spending points on one for a hypothetical Turn 6 attack is a fine way of killing your late game for almost nothing in return. For a laugh, send in a Dom10 PoD without equipment against a small Bless Army backed by some archers and see how badly he gets hurt.

Sure, it will help (assuming it doesn't get killed or Feebleminded against a lucky indie). But, having good scales will also help by letting you get more gold and resources for troops.

The "Awake SC Pretender" strategy is about equipping them decently to take care of trouble provinces or to kill moderately sized enemy armies on Turns 10-20. If you are worried about Turn 6, then an Awake SC Pretender is not worth the little help it offers.

My Bogus Solution
 

Father of Winters
-3 -3 -3 (cold) x +3 luck, +2 Magic.
Dominion 9. W-10.

So look - we already know the Bogarus troops are well - bogus. Looking at the nation, you see the slimmest ray of hope.

All the troops are cold resistent (50). They have a cheap sacred. (10/3 thats sacred chaff).

And the Father of Winders has Cold Power. So going into a 4-5 dominion cold 3 province.. he has 150+ hp, chill 25, defense 27.

So the premise here is: To take a clue from the name - the Age of Heros. And indeed 3/5 times I tried this I got a national hero in the first 6 turns.

Expand cautiously. Preach prodigiously. You have cheap H3 priests. Use them as smiters. Use the sacred as chaff allowing the chill to kill.

You're going to take a lot of chaff casualties. But oddly, it allows you to do relatively better in hcav provinces.

But avoid undead with your pretender - and be very very careful. He's very fragile.

You might also try a death -3, and screw your army completely.

Re: My Bogus Solution
 

Death 3 is the worst idea for Bogarus. Their good mages are old.

Jazzepi

Re: The Bogarus Problem
 

They won't know they're your neighbor until *after* they create their god. Committing your nation to a blessrush on the off chance you *might* be next to Bogarus seems like a weak move - unless you expect those nations to blessrush regardless of who their neighbors are? Even then, it's just the crapshoot of landing next to a rusher.

Taking an awake god as rush insurance is only sensible if (a) it will work and actually stop rushes, and (b) won't cost you so much that you'll lose even if you survive the opening. Based on this thread it looks like awake gods for Bogarus are questionable on *both* counts.

Of course map size, indy strength and other settings matter too.

Re: The Bogarus Problem
 

Bogarus's military is at such a disadvantage that there's no question that 90% of the nations in the game can successfully overwhelm you early, even if they are not a 'rush' nation.

Your scales don't do you a whole lot of good when you're beat back into your capital by turn 10.

When the choice is between super scales and no counter to this, thereby commiting yourself to a short, violent death, or mediocre scales and an effective counter, if through anti-army or anti-indy capability - and there certainly ARE pretenders that are more than capable of either one - I know which one I would pick. And I would be right.

Re: The Bogarus Problem
 

K,

Thank you for your clarification.

I would like to offer a somewhat different perspective:

1. An awake pretender would give you more gold than strong scales by virtue of a faster expansion as long as you have O3 and G3. Please bear in mind that Bogarus has a weak starting army and would prefer C3 anyway because of its cold resistance troops. So your extra design points would only go to production, luck and magic scales, none of which is critical, or to magic ability. So an awake pretender is likely to be trading more gold and stronger start for less magic, not for less gold.

2. You would not be using your awake pretender to attack a dual blessed army without equipment. You would be using it to defend behind a 20 (minimum) PD and whatever troops you can scrape together.

I haven't tested this, but I would expect that at turn5 or 6 your awake pretender + PD + troops would have a very good chance of successfully defending against a (by definition smallish at such an early stage) dual blessed invading army without any equipment.

Re: The Bogarus Problem
 

This thread has been very interesting so far. I'm surprised by the diversity of playstyles, and I had not considered recruiting the smiters for the first few turns to supplement the weak power of your starting army. Might be nice for frying some knights early on, but it does prevent you from getting to an early research goal like Thunderstrike spam or Construction 2.

Just out of curiosity, does anyone have a good Bogarus build that does not use an awake SC god? I'd like to try out these new ideas but I'm still skeptical that Bogarus can hold off a determined attacker without one.

Re: The Bogarus Problem
 

Oh rhetoric is fun. As you can see by the HoF, no one has won an MP game with Bogarus, including me. How many times have you lost an MP game as Bogarus, with an awake pretender? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif



Part of my point was that if you are going to use the SC defensively only, then the issue is essentially moot anyways. You are trading a defensive bonus against small highly blessed armies - at the expense of making yourself more vulnerable to strong scales strats. What are you going to do if an O3/P3/G3 Marignon shows up with 200 crossbowmen? That sort of raw firepower can rout a PD in one volley, and kill a pretender with the next.

There is a simple rule in dominions - you can't be prepared for every contingency, at any given time. That being the case, it just seems kind of silly to base your entire strat around what you think is the biggest threat in the first 6-8 turns. I can't believe I'm the only one who thinks that if you're going to be eliminated, that's the best time for it. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif I'd much rather have a really strong mid-late game with a shaky start, than to have a misleadingly strong start, with a late game that is weaker than optimal. You can argue that it isn't, but simply taking Drain, losing 2 RP per researcher for the entire game - may not be hurting you, in the way that you look at it, but it is compromising what is considered to be one of the greatest strengths of Bogarus. If your build is able to keep that 1Magic instead, your research will be utterly insane, and you won't have to survive very long to start leveraging that power.

Re: The Bogarus Problem
 

Good expansion gives you a good mid/end game. SCs give you a good expansion rate, especially with a nation like Bogarus. +100% provinces in the first year is worth more than +10% income. You can also cover all the important scales just fine with an SC build.

Re: The Bogarus Problem
 

I found out that playing Bogarus as Maverni (in Baalz guide) was very successful. That means using good scales to buy as many bodies as possible, boost them and thus survive early game. Later on you use your mages and excellent research advantage to win.

Re: The Bogarus Problem
 

Bogarus can recruit absolute hordes of chaff and there is a quality all of its own to a great quantity of their archers, especially if they manage to snag some good indies soon.

Some of the problems with Bogarus are that they have no access to Earth, Water or Nature magic, so those should be covered by the pretender. An awake SC pretender is a pretty big risk, but could pay off. A straight research rush to Evo 2 or 3, mercenaries and hordes of chaff can get you somewhere, depending. Archers backed by the city guard and then the cav units can be fielded rather quickly in large numbers, which may allow you to take on other nations even if they are going for a bless strategy.

I've found Bogarus interesting to play in SP, but that does not translate well to MP, of course.

As far as the comments about how many MP games Bogarus has won, that's a red herring. The nation has been in for only two patches and not been in any number of MP games compared to most other winners and since unlike some other nations, does not EAT EVERYTHING, there is going to be a learning curve and wating period before see it win. Remember that in Dom-PPP Caelum was once considered the weakest nation. Then somebody figured out Quickness + Summon Lesser Air Elemental and the rest is history (and why lesser elementals cost gems to summon since Dom2).

Re: The Bogarus Problem
 

Well it would be of dubious value if it were used as an argument for Bogarus needing to be "fixed" or otherwise changed in order to be competitive.

However, it is not. I was just pointing out that people can debate different theories for the nation all they want, when someone says they need X in order to be competitive, then that begs the question, "how competitive are they, with X?", and so far the data shows that they are not conclusively more competitive with X, than with Y or Z. Which leads to a more open-minded discussion of the relative merits of these capital letters at the end of the alphabet. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

Re: The Bogarus Problem
 

True, but you have to to be able to keep those provinces. A single SC is fodder for any number of countermeasures while sustained growth backed by mixed forces is much harder to counter.

Re: The Bogarus Problem
 

I'd invite you to run a few tests using 30 PD + starting army + 20 archers and some Standard units + two H3 Eparchs scripted with Smite. They do a perfectly fine job killing 20 dual-Blessed + Prophet + starting army attackers (no losses in my tests).

A god on the front line in this scenario is more likely to get killed than to contribute meaningfully. Heck, Bogarus's ability to recruit H3 priests make them equally able to beat an SC god in the early game.

Re: The Bogarus Problem
 

huh? Doesn't Bogus get access to alchemists - which as I recall are E1.

Besides, I'd rather look at it as they DO get access to Astral, Death, and Blood - which are the three essentials IMO>

Re: The Bogarus Problem
 

So basically you're arguing that you shouldn't get the provinces if you can't hold them against a determined attack? That's fallacious.

1. You can continue to conquer enemy or indy provinces with your awake pretender, forcing them to retake them against cheap PD, jacking up the taxes in a raiding scenario.

2. You always have more total gold because of the fact that you got the provinces. Your sustained growth backed up by mixed forces is only better for the SC being there and may be your only viable option to achieve this considering your military.

3. An awake SC will lend disincentive to invasion, whereas if you do not have one, you are approaching 100% sure to get invaded by anyone that spots you. That's not a good mid-to-endgame strategy at all.

4. If you can't hold them with a pretender PLUS everything else, you can't hold them at all. So how exactly do you propose to spend those points any better?

I absolutely annihilated Bogarus by turn 10 where the opposing player didn't make any mistakes, and I used no devastating or cheap strategy. No bless. No awake pretender. Their army just ISN'T good enough to prevent it against an average military, and they even used their mages in their defense. So it's telling that you are counseling people to not take an awake pretender and offering no competitive strategy in return. I would too if I wanted to beat Bogarus.

Re: The Bogarus Problem
 

That's anecdotal - a single case with not even detailed analysis of the position. I mean I am sure at the time you didn't sit down and think through his build, and check out every one of his provinces - nor interview the populace of his provinces to discover if he had to face any particularly nasty indies, or had barbarians attack his castle, or god knows what constitutes "didn't make any mistakes", which is a hell of a claim. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

I must say I find it amusing that it's scoffed at to use diplomacy as your early game strat anyways. Supposing it is one of your best options as Bogarus, so? It's really not THAT often that you start next to an instant rusher, that's for sure. Even when you do, to be on someone's capital so soon, often means that person mobilized against the first person that their scouts found - at most the second. So that person is not looking for Bogarus, they're just looking for a province with a castle in it, and there's a good chance they didn't even see your awake pretender if you have one - if you're expanding the other direction. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif

I really don't think it's fair, until there is statistical evidence (like a Bogarus win using *any* strat), for anyone to imply their strat is competitive, and another is not.

Re: The Bogarus Problem
 

-How is it not anecdotal if Bogarus wins, but it is anecdotal if Bogarus loses? Both provide data. You can't have it both ways.

-People don't have to use diplomacy with or against Bogarus, because the best and most sure way to power is by conquering the easy target. Which Bogarus certainly is in early game, especially without an awake pretender.

Re: The Bogarus Problem
 

the problem is starting armies with rare exceptions are not at all what you will usually be facing.


As I recall.. voi archers are significantly worse than standard archers.. Resource 5, morale 8?

Re: The Bogarus Problem
 

Maybe you can and maybe you can't. In the early game an SC pretender can be killed by something as mundane as some of the readily available LA crossbowmen or calvary set to Attack or Fire Large Monsters. Taking indies is a whole different proposition from taking enemy provinces.

Check out some of the LA guides floating around. Baalz has a nice LA Atlantis guide that details easy ways to kill SCs using only Atlantis's base troops, and even weaker nations like Patala can kill an SC with minimal research and a single mage casting Gifts from Heaven.

In the short term, holding provinces is not a big deal. I recently killed a skilled opponent by letting him take 80% of my provinces while I made a determined attack towards his capital. Once I took it and stopped his production of national troops, retaking my lost provinces was not even an issue.

SCs are good at taking provinces in the short term, and terrible at holding them in the long term.

I've noted several times that adding smiters to an army vastly increases their ability to take Indies. I don't know what your standards are, but I find that making an army that can take a province a turn every other turn is perfectly fine by most people's standards.

Actually, an Awake SC tells me "wow, this guy has no resources or gold or research since it's tied into building up an early game SC. I should kill him now when he's weak before he gets good equipment."

Well, not making mistakes is not the same as having a good strategy. A player more experienced with Bogarus may have been able to do more with it.

For example, ask yourself these questions:

1. Did he use Smiters in his armies?

2. Were his Voi Archers in the front of the battlefield or in the middle/back?

3. Did he keep at least five Styags with his army (these are the non-commanders with Standards)?

4. Did he force you to meet him in battlefields with his Province Defense built up?

5. Did he have good Production scales, and did he use low resource units like the various Voi or the high resource Peshtsi?

And some overall strategy questions:

6. Did he concentrate his forces, or did he meet you in several battles?

7. Did he buy and use mercenaries?

8. Did he ever make a viable rush to your capital, or did he try to retake his lost provinces?

9. What were his chances of events(Order and Luck scales), and is there evidence that he had any bad events strike in the first few turns?

10. Could he have had very strong indies near his capital, thus slowing his expansion?



I know that if he had mages and some magic as you said, then he probably didn't have any smiters. If he made that choice, then he was probably unfamiliar with Bogarus's other strengths. I can see how easily someone might be seduced by the long-term power of good research and they would avoid the short-term power of Smiters in the early game.

I don't expect or want any answers to these questions, but I want you to mull them over for your own edification. The issue is more complex than what you learned in one game with a single Bogarus player.

Re: The Bogarus Problem
 

I've won a VP MP game with Bogarus, in Russian community though. With an awake Wyrm. I dont think Bogarus is any good without an SC God.
Sloth is, in my opinion, completely out of question, your strength is in numbers. But Bogarus can afford drain 2 relatively easily (without CB mod).
Voi archers are indeed worse that standart archers. But their morale is mostly irrelevant, their precision and damage can be buffed, so in the end sheer numbers can outweigh everything (if you can solve starvation issues...)
Bogarus spearman are quite good as arrow fodder.
I am not sure if Malaya Druzhina is fixed in the last version of CB. I remember they lost lances some time ago, getting composite bow instead (and becoming quite crappy).
Bogarus can summon Arch Devils, but Ice Devils make more sense with cold 2 scale (and probably strong dominion). If you can think of some way to summon or recruit a water mage, or if your pretender has some water, empower him with blood and summon Ice Devils.
Well, you were LA Rlyeh, and that DOES count... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif
And Bogarus had some weird pretender, like Vampire queen with just blood and death if my memory serves me right. In other words, not a SC pretender.

Re: The Bogarus Problem
 

K,

Thank you for your invitation of considering Bogarus’ smiters. It is something that is easy to overlook.

However, I did consider the possibility of using eparch for Bogarus extensively. After all, I advocated the use of bishop fish’s smiting ability in the early game for MA Oceania. So using smiters is something that I would definitely take into account. There are two major differences between the two cases:

First, everybody is map move one underwater, so bishop fish’s map move of one is not a handicap. Eparch’s map move of one is.

Second (and more important), battlemagic is much less important underwater (i.e. for MA Oceania) while one of Bogarus’ biggest advantage over other nations is its fast research and therefore earlier access to battlemagic. Without its speed, its research is only average – bear in mind starets are not particularly cost effective since it is old and not sacred. Using eparch would be giving up on Bogarus’ one major advantage over others. That is not to say that eparchs shouldn’t be used in an emergency - just that it should be avoided if possible.

The fact that eparch cost 175 gold while bishop fish cost only 120 also matters on the margin.

IMHO, an awake pretender pays for itself by enabling Bogarus to expand much faster, the additional combat value in defense of a rush is just icing on the cake. An awake pretender solves Bogarus' problem of weak starting troops, and poor national troops in general, in one stroke. Please bear in mind that part of the cost of an effective awake pretender is high dominion – something that Bogarus need anyway to take advantage of its cold scale and cold resistant troops. Also bear in mind that for Bogarus the pretender will get some equipment by turn 6 or 7 by researching construction 2 first – unlike the use of eparch, researching construction 2 first provides air quills, and so does not slow research in the long run.

Finally, against invaders an awake pretender would be scripting air shield, hold, hold, (hold) attack rear instead of fighting in the front on turn one.

Let me know if you still disagree.

Re: The Bogarus Problem
 

I do.

First, the Eparch can get you the early expansion. Map move 1 is perfect for taking a province a turn.

Then you move over to your Starets. Even if you wasted the first six turns making Eparchs, the next six turns of Starets will more than recover any lost ground on research.

Then you send your Eparchs into position for your first war. By then you have a second castle pumping out Masters of Names for great research, and when you meet your enemies around turn 17 or 19 you teleport in with powerful magic backing you up and if you were smart you now have those Eparch on Carpets of Flying with something interesting as guard.

And if a war happens before that, Eparchs on Smite duty are going to serve you better than a poorly equipped SC god and bad scales.

Here's another free lesson from a semi-competent player: you need more than one strategy. You need several that you cycle in and out as your circumstances change. Be flexible, and don't sacrifice anything you don't have to.

Re: The Bogarus Problem
 

Because as of today, 100% of awake SCs, and 100% of imprisoned scales/magic pretenders have met with failure in MP games.

Until you can substantiate a particular strategy as being victorious (sorry Kuritza, not my intent to be rude), then there all of our evidence leads to loss of the game so far. 100% results are not anecdotal.