Pretender concept: Messianic Figurehead
 

The idea is a 0 cost pretender with good command skills, potential to use many different magic items, and very poor (to the point of discouraging it)magic skills.

The idea is that the pretender is, at most, an early lots-of-troops commander, with some potential to use buff items later on, but you´d rely (and upgrade) for the most part your national and summoned mages.

ICly: The >name to be chosen< is the prophesied savior of it´s nation, and a mighty warrior to boot. However, his magicall skills are nigh-unexistant, and relies on wizards and priests to do his spellcasting for him.


Any thoughts?

Re: Pretender concept: Messianic Figurehead
 

hmmm doesn't sound like a USEFULL pretender really.

Re: Pretender concept: Messianic Figurehead
 

It's more a challenge pretender. The (relative) advantage is that your pretender is still motil, and the low cost allows for good dominion and scales... which could be done with other low cost pretenders, arguably.

AKA: sort of like the crone, but instead of necromancy tempered with old age, the messiah has a big "banner" effect, and no default magic stats (and expensive new path costs)

Re: Pretender concept: Messianic Figurehead
 

hehe I don't use the crone either http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

Re: Pretender concept: Messianic Figurehead
 

Well, if he has a big Banner bonus, say 25 or 30? He might be somehow useful. Give him an innate Magic and Undead leadership as possible, to make him very versatile as a commander.

My best suggestions - give him some kind of really sweet ranged weapon by default, so he has some reason to actually exist. Then design him in a way that justifies giving him some kind of bonus item slots - if not 4 arms, then 2 heads, or 4 misc, or some combination thereof. So maybe he's not super awesome at the start, but once geared, is a totally sick SC chassis. That reminds me, a couple of other potential special abilities would really help his opportunity cost, such as Darkvision (100) (or Blind even), Regeneration, Trampling, Flight, Stealth, etc. Pick and choose, find something that works with your concept - just as long as it's not nothing, a lack of specific reason to use him, will result in his non-use. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: Pretender concept: Messianic Figurehead
 

Only if he's a SC he could be usefull.. but then he couldn't be cheap

Re: Pretender concept: Messianic Figurehead
 

Well the idea is he's cheap because of no starting magic, and path cost of 80 or so, I imagine. SCs are generally expected to self buff, and with that achilles heel, he could be somewhat intriguing.

Re: Pretender concept: Messianic Figurehead
 

Here´s my first attempt at this. To make up for the expensive paths, I gave him a "heal" ability (which makes him desirable for non-arcocesphale/Pangaea nations) and a summoning ability which brings 5 woodsmen each time it´s used. As for item slots, I managed to get the standard + one more slot for special items, althrough TBH I didnt fiddle with that too much.
If I try it and find it too handicapped, I´ll give him a supply bonus, to go with his command bonus.
#newmonster 2906
#name "Prophesied Warrior"
#copyspr 65
#descr "The Prophesied Warrior has been heralded as the one foretold to save the nation from certain destruction. He is a

mighty warrior, profficient at ranging undetected through enemy territory, knows the healing herbs of the land, and a

charismatic battle commander. When he rises his banner, the small people of the realm will flock to him. However, his magical

abilities are rather limited, relying on his companions to do his spellcasting"
#mapmove 2
#ap 14
#hp 14
#size 2
#prot 0
#str 15
#enc 2
#att 14
#def 14
#prec 14
#mr 18
#gcost 0
#rcost 1
#pathcost 120
#startdom 1
#weapon 266
#weapon 258
#armor "Full Plate Mail"
#armor "Full Helmet"
#forestsurvival
#mountainsurvival
#wastesurvival
#stealthy 10
#startage 22
#maxage 200
#older 6
#healer 5
#standard 20
#makemonster5 126
#superiorleader
#itemslots 64646
#nametype 100
#eyes 2
#end

Re: Pretender concept: Messianic Figurehead
 

The small people of his realm?

Re: Pretender concept: Messianic Figurehead
 

As in "makemonster 5"= woodsman archers.

Like in Kevin Kostner's version of Robin Hood.

Re: Pretender concept: Messianic Figurehead
 

Are woodsman archers small?

Re: Pretender concept: Messianic Figurehead
 

I'm kind of concerned that size (2), 14 HP, and starting dominion of 1 will render him absolutely untouchable. For some reason I had been imagining something..... A little more heroic. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Would be hilarious if he summoned Flagellents, to go with his inability to provide a bless. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/redface.gif

Re: Pretender concept: Messianic Figurehead
 

I was thinking on defaulting him with Awe and supplies, but left that for after the test run.

So... more HP would be in order? I sort of wanted to keep him out of the absolute SC (as in, by themselves, and straight out of the box, like the Wyrm)group...

Maybe a drastic increase in marksmanship would be in order too. After all, this is supposed to be some kind of champion...

Re: Pretender concept: Messianic Figurehead
 

With 14 HP no one would ever want to commit him to melee (maybe a recruited thug, but not your pretender!).

With 120 path cost, no one would ever use him as a caster.

Taking a pretender whose only benefit would ever be hanging out in the back of the army, providing a Morale boost for the archers - is never going to happen. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif


It just seems to me, that as the type of hero you are describing, and being that he lacks the ability to provide a good bless or any magical diversity - he HAS to be an amazing combatant, in some way. So he's going to need at least 30 HP base, and Awe would be an excellent choice as well. Recuperation could help, as well as a small regen, so he can really wade in, and as long as he survives, he will ultimately be fine.

You can easily engineer him in a way that lowly troops are no match for him, but that it isn't too easy to make him a solo army destroyer.

Re: Pretender concept: Messianic Figurehead
 

hm, true. Besides, he sorely needs some sort of reinvirgoration to cope with the huge encumbrance of the armor...
<font class="small">Code:</font><hr /><pre>
#newmonster 2906
#name "Prophesied Warrior"
#copyspr 65
#descr "The Prophesied Warrior has been heralded as the one foretold to save the nation from certain destruction. He is a mighty warrior, profficient at ranging undetected through enemy territory, knows the healing herbs of the land, and a charismatic battle commander. When he rises his banner, the small people of the realm will flock to him. However, his magical abilities are rather limited, relying on his companions to do his spellcasting"
#mapmove 2
#ap 14
#hp 30
#size 2
#prot 0
#str 15
#enc 2
#att 14
#def 14
#prec 15
#mr 18
#gcost 0
#rcost 1
#pathcost 120
#startdom 1
#weapon 266
#weapon 258
#armor "Full Plate Mail"
#armor "Full Helmet"
#forestsurvival
#mountainsurvival
#wastesurvival
#stealthy 10
#startage 22
#maxage 200
#older 6
#healer 5
#awe 2
#reinvirgoration 8
#standard 20
#makemonster5 126
#superiorleader
#itemslots 64646
#nametype 100
#eyes 2
#end
</pre><hr />

Re: Pretender concept: Messianic Figurehead
 

Using #summon or #domsummon instead of #makemonsters would cause the troops to flock to him automatically. I don't think I'd spend a turn of "Pretender Time" to summon five puny Woodsmen unless I was really desperate....

Re: Pretender concept: Messianic Figurehead
 

hm, thing is, I hate domsummons. What if I changed it from poxy archers to some sort of heavy cavalry? (as in his household knights)

Re: Pretender concept: Messianic Figurehead
 

I'd think it would be pretty cool if it were freespawning light infantry of some kind. You know, random guys with not much going on, who throw themselves at his feet - they're not the best soldiers, but he can't get away from it once it started. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif

But, if you want it to be something deliberate, I would agree that some nice heavy cav or knights would pretty sweet. Or perhaps some really heavy men-at-arms. Something he could at least make use of in the start of the game by doing Summon Allies for a few turns, and then having a nice little force to clear indies with.

He just needs a draw somewhere - he has to either be good enough at combat, or good enough at magic to justify his existence. Otherwise the only niche he has at all, is as an imprisoned scales god. Giving him a healthy bit of Awe helps, it justifies going Dom10 to get a really high Awe score - but I think if you want him to be taken awake, and not to be very magical, you need to bump the starting dominion to 3 probably. I mean, he is a legend to his own people - he's their Maximus Aurelius, they absolutely love the guy. And with starting dom of 1, it costs wayyyyy too much to get to Dom10, so no one will bother.

Re: Pretender concept: Messianic Figurehead
 

Hm, you have a point there. In fact, in my play attempts I ended up having to take bad scales to manage a decent dominion (which was not the point)

Besides, it fits ICly. This is no mere upstart lich befuddling the masses, this is the messiah. He ought to get some status due to that :p

I´m going to try him out with dominion 4, summon knights (aka, monster 21), 2 awe, and 8 reinvirgoration(actually, scratch that, I´m removing reinvirgoration and reducing encumbrance to 0. Which in theory should work the same and scratch armor penalties).

Re: Pretender concept: Messianic Figurehead
 

k, I revamped him. Now he´s a knight as well, and not stealthy. He can summon five heavy cavalry by turn, and can heal afflictions (thus avoiding moving around an army of cripples). He has also high hp, good combat stats, and a nice awe aura. I expect him to perform well in the early game. I hope he´s not too overpowered. (Then again, despite the early normal troops advantage, the magic handicap will likely mean that everyone will have the good summons before you do...)
Trying it now..

<font class="small">Code:</font><hr /><pre>#newmonster 2906
#name "Warrior of Prophecy"
#copyspr 377
#descr "The Prophesied Warrior has been heralded as the one foretold to save the nation from certain destruction. He is a

mighty warrior, versed in the arts of healing, and has proven to be a charismatic battle commander. Knights will flock to him

when he raises his banner. However, his magical abilities are rather limited, relying on his companions to do his

spellcasting"
#mapmove 3
#ap 20
#hp 40
#size 3
#prot 0
#str 18
#enc 0
#att 18
#def 18
#prec 14
#mr 16
#gcost 0
#rcost 1
#pathcost 120
#startdom 4
#ambidextrous 3
#mounted
#weapon 4
#weapon 56
#weapon 8
#armor "Full Plate Mail"
#armor "Full Helmet"
#armor "Kite Shield"
#forestsurvival
#mountainsurvival
#wastesurvival
#startage 22
#maxage 200
#older 6
#healer 5
#heal
#awe 2
#standard 20
#makemonster5 21
#superiorleader
#itemslots 64646
#nametype 100
#eyes 2
#end </pre><hr />

Re: Pretender concept: Messianic Figurehead
 

He's starting to look pretty interesting, I'm curious to hear how your next tests go! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

He's definitely very thuggish now, without quite crossing the line to SC. You could probably raise knights for 2 turns, then go off into the country and start putting down those uncouth rebels in style. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif

Re: Pretender concept: Messianic Figurehead
 

A good thing you told me to tone the guy up. I was fearing that if I added all those things it might come around as unbeatable, but after testing it, I think it´s more balanced than I thought. Maybe still leaning on weak.
To put it into situation, I put him in a late age Ulm game. (This was a matter of practicality, as since I would need to beef up national magicians to get summons going, I´d need lots of gems, and the cheapest "gem" around are blood slaves).
I had him build up a l0-l5 cavalry force, which in battle he would lead from a side of the map down onto the enemy commanders. Heavy infantry would stay at the middle of the map, around an Ulm Commander using a skull talisman over and over, and behind them would be the crossbowmen. This combat set performed amazingly well against independents, as the heavy infantry usually cut through the lesser troops, down to the commanders, and induced mass routs, with little casualties.
Later, I beefed up all formations, throwing in more heavy infantry, more cavalry to the pretender´s cavalry force, and some more archers divisions, plus a wizard (a black priest with Earth l). It's perfomance wasn´t exactly overwhelming, but it kept some big enemy armies from bypassing my frontiers. Plus, I *did* achieve some significative victories against... Vanheim, I think (through I stopped short of their capital). And for some reason, Arcocesphale had it´s Cyclops pretender lovemaking around in a border province, with one some poxy militias as bodyguard, and got killed.
However, that´s when the good times ended. While I was performing cyclopicide, the not-çuite done in Vanheimians came down at me, slaughtered some blood harvesters, and besieged my capital, all in call cutting through two 30+ defense provinces, which usually prove enough to keep back raiding parties (BTW: at this time I had already beefed up a gypsy sorceress to blood 3 death 3, which allowed me to summon my first vampire lord.). My army was able to defeat the besiegers... with losses. I rebeefed him up, so that he had a bigger army, again. I also threw in that vampire count with a bunch of blood slaves so that he could cast imps at the enemy. While I was doing this, Man had invaded the west, and had a not-huge-but-not-disregardable army. In the following engagement, I won, but suffered staggering losses (as in, only five knights survived, about one third of the heavy infantry, and NONE of the archers. Plus a black priest and a good archer hero got killed. I have re-refitted the army again (drawing on the troops which were going to go to the second army, which I need to take care of the Eastern Front). Battling it up without summons is more challenging than it seemed at first, cavalry far less overwhelming than I thought, and building up decent wizards for summons is costly (not that much with blood magic, but it still reçuires several hunters, and to get the blood magic levels which the good stuff reçuires you still need to economize your slaves)

Re: Pretender concept: Messianic Figurehead
 

I'd say a battlewide buffspell as onebattle spell might be nice. Early on with smaller armies it's not that strong (don't use army of lead or gold or that sort of way powerfull spells) with big armies it will be increasingly stronger as the game progresses.

Re: Pretender concept: Messianic Figurehead
 

So he performed pretty well in combat though? And didn't die in all of that? That's a pretty good sign. Hopefully he would generally avoid his own death, but rout when the army reaches 75% losses.

He may still be missing that one thing that makes him an integral and compelling part of your strategy. As it is, he's more of just a really nice hero (oh, ironic) than an actual pretender.

A #onebattlespell may be a good option. Not sure what you would use that would be thematic, useful, and balanced. Since he's meant to be magicless, Antimagic could be an interesting buff for him to apply. And that's definitely one that doesn't do a lot early on, but later in the game would make him an incredible tool for your armies (at least in MP, not quite as much against the AI).

Re: Pretender concept: Messianic Figurehead
 

hm, I was reading the VOTD thread in the forum and was thinking that he WOULD need some kind of extra buff. Otherwise kill ratio will build and eventually he´ll get offed by a VOTD