EDIT-please read! I've got enough finished on this one, that I've decided to go ahead and finish it myself, so it's officially no longer a Placeholder-Nation, and now joins the glorious ranks of a definite project. Procrastination aside, I should have it done sometime before Christmas, but should I disappear from these hallowed forums for an entire year, it's free-graphics included-for anyone to do whatever you like with them. By then, they'll probably need updated, anyway...

Based on historical Nubia with Egyptian elements (difficult to separate the two!), strong elements-especially names of heroes and creatures-taken from Charles R Saunders' 'Imaro' trilogy (as a direct homage, since the somewhat ill-fated series deserves a bit more popularity-hopefully Mr. Saunders won't mind.), as well as biblical Ammon, the Hyksos people, the Mali people, and with minor Greek elements.

It should be noted, by the way, that the Nubians at Nabta Playa constructed one of the first megalithic archeoastronomical devices (think Stonehenge as a calendar/star-charting device), approximately 1000 years before Stonehenge was built-it's from this that I draw their links to the night sky.

I've done some editing recently, to make these even more politically correct, as well as slightly more aesthetically pleasing:

Attachment 10455

I am still working on this and my other mods, but that's a little like saying the ocean hasn't dried out yet...

This is an LA Nation that started out EA, but I couldn't find a purpose for it to exist in EA. So I'm adapting the original concepts into the LA, to present a fairly evil Nation of Undead and Demons, which are defending their homeland against the *other* evils of the Late Era.

The idea is that this mod represents a pre-colonial, pre-(and in some sense, post)-apocalyptic "new world" (in this case, a mythical Africa), who's residents are engaged in not only expanding their empire, but also protecting their lands from would-be despoilers, and improving their primitive technological base through the application of human ingenuity, as well as some bizarre ancient artifacts that have survived for unknown millenia.

Description: Ammon Kush: A vast, rich land of endless greenery ruled over by fell and terrible giants, has suffered predation from the hands of despotic kings and would-be conquerors for thousands of years. Ancient Sauromatia conquered parts of it, and held them for a time, leaving their gods and legends and ruins behind. Arcoscepalie and old Ermor both fought wars against the squabbling kingdoms of the Ammon Giants, but were driven out by the many dangers of the proud and savage land. Never before has all the Ammon Kush been united under a single ruler-it's people are too disparate and too different, the giant kings of Ammon too proud and hostile to one another to work together-but now the danger is too great. Evil walks the land in numbers never seen, and the choice for every Nation is "Ally and be strong, or fall and be forgotten". So all the peoples of Ammon, driven by desperation, have come together and embraced a new way, resting all their hopes of glory, freedom, and simple survival on their faith in the Awakened God.

Desire: To create a Giant-centric Nation that can hold it's own in the Late Era, *without* advanced weaponry/armour, unbeatable PD, or over-the-top creatures/sacreds.

Starting Army:
10 Damaw
10 Damiw
Zaty.
Nubian Scout.

PD: 1-20 = 2xDamew, 1xZaty. 21+ = 1xDamaw + 1xDamiw, 1xQore

Starting Sites: (Note-Ammon Kush will get more starting gem production than any other LA Nation. This is meant to be both a benefit, and an attraction to other Nations, since with Ammon's weak PD and starting army, they'll be very vulnerable to rushes, unless they choose the powerful but costly Banefire Engine Pretender. To compensate for the bonus, they also start with a site that increases Misfortune, making it more difficult for them to recruit their very powerful heroes and multiheroes.)

Nabta Playa. 2 Astral
Onyx Pyramid. 1 Death
The Mines of Zinj: 1 Air, 1 Earth, 1 Fire.
Skeleton Coast: 1 Water, 1 Death, Increases Misfortune.

Units:
Blemmyes: Hp. 20 Size. 3 Str. 18 Att. 8 Def. 8 Prot 2 (2) Mv. 12 (3) Mor. 99 MR. 8 Weapons: Fist, Bite. Armour: None. Mindless. If GoRed, Blemmyes have 0 Leadership.
Gold: 40 Res. 1

Daku.
Firstform: Hp 16, Size 2, Str 16, Att 9, Def 9, Prot 6 (6), Mor 9, MR 7,
Mv 16(2), Prec 6. Weapons: Trample, Bite. Armour: None. Patrol bonus (2), Berserk (0).
Waterform: Hp 16, Size 2, Str 16, Att 9, Def 12, Prot 6 (6), Mor 9, MR 9,
Mv 9(1), Prec 6. Weapons: Bite Armour: None. Berserk (0). Amphibious, Self Healing.

Medjay: Hp. 14 Size. 3 Str. 14 Att. 12 Def. 12 Prot. 6 (3) Mv. 10 Mor. 30 MR. 12 Weapons: Bronze Battleaxe (Dmg. 5) Armour: Leather Kilt (Prot. 5), Bronze Shield. Undead, Sacred. Defensive Bonus (2)
Gold: 60 Res. 9

Ka Guardian: (Capital Only) Hp. 15 Size. 3 Str. 15 Att. 14 Def. 14 Prot. 10 (3) Mv. 10 Mor. 30 MR. 15 Weapons: Bronze Khopesh (Dmg. 6) Armour: Ancient Bronze Armour (Prot. 7), Ancient Bronze Helmet (7), Bronze Shield. Undead, Sacred, Defensive Bonus (6).
Gold: 90 Res. 18

Damaw. Stats:
Hp. 10 Size. 2 Str. 10 Att. 10 Def. 11 Prot. 2 (0) Mv. 10 (2) Mor. 9 MR. 9 Prec. 10. Weapons: Spear, Sling (25 ammo).
Armour: Kurta (Prot 2), Keffiyeh (Prot 2).

Damew.
Stats: Hp. 10 Size. 2 Str. 10 Att. 10 Def. 10 Prot. 2 (0) Mv. 10 (2) Mor. 9 MR. 9 Prec. 10. Weapons: Mace. Armour: Kurta, Keffiyeh, Buckler.

Damiw. Hp. 10 Size. 2 Str. 10 Att. 10 Def. 8 Prot. 2 (0) Mv. 10 (2) Mor. 9 MR. 9 Prec. 10. Weapons: Tabar Zin. Armour: Kurta, Keffiyeh.

Irtjet.
Stats: Hp. 10 Size. 2 Str. 10 Att. 11 Def. 12 Prot. 6 (0) Mv. 12 (3) Mor. 11 MR. 10 Prec. 10. Weapons: Assegai. Armour: Bronze Cap, Keffiyeh, Adarga (shield).

Hykso.
Stats: Hp. 10 Size. 2 Str. 10 Att. 12 Def. 10 Prot. 6 (0) Mv. 12 (3) Mor. 12 MR. 10 Prec. 10. Weapons: Scimitar
Armour: Bronze Cap, Keffiyeh, Adarga (shield).

Pitati.
Stats: Hp. 10 Size. 2 Str. 10 Att. 10 Def. 10 Prot. 6 (0) Mv. 12 (3) Mor. 11 MR. 10 Prec. 10. Weapons: Short Bow, Jambiya (Dmg. 2). Armour: Bronze Cap, Keffiyeh.

Tjemeh.
Stats: Hp. 10 Size. 2 Str. 11 Att. 12 Def. 12 Prot. 13 (0) Mv. 10 (2) Mor. 12 MR. 10 Prec. 8. Weapons: Sarissa
Armour: Full Bronze Plate, Full Bronze Helmet, Thurios (shield).

Ammon Warrior-Huge purple skinned giants (standard Jotun size) with strange amber eyes, who have allied themselves with Kush. Ammon Giants tattoo themselves from the tops of their heads to the bottoms of their feet in bright purple dyes, the tattoos displaying fierce beasts, their family lineage, and their personal deeds. They also file their teeth into razor-sharp fangs. Warriors arm themselves with two massive maces carved from solid stone, and helmets and armour crafted from the heavy bones of large animals and unlucky humans that they've eaten. Ammon Giants are the spawn of ancient demons, and can be damaged by holy magic.
Hp. 36 Siz. 4 Str. 21 Att. 12, Def. 12, Prot. 14 (6), Mor. 12 MR. 12 Mv. 16/2. Prec. 10 Weapons: Stone Mace (Dmg. 5), Stone Mace (Dmg. 5) Armour: Bone Armour (Prot. 8) Skull Helmet (Prot. 9) Ambidextrous (4)
Gold 55, Resources 15. Gluttony (4) Darkvision (100) Berserk (0) Demon.

Oryx Guard.
Firstform: Hp. 4 Siz. 4 Str. 21 Att. 15, Def. 14, Prot. 17 (6), Mor. 12 MR. 12 Mv. 16/2. Prec. 10 Weapons: Sling, 6 ammo. Armour: Bronze Brigandine (Prot 13) Skull Helmet (Prot. 9), Bronze Shield. Ambidextrous (4)
Gluttony (4) Darkvision (100) Demon.
Secondform: Hp. 36 Siz. 4 Str. 21 Att. 15, Def. 14, Prot. 17 (6), Mor. 50 (berserk) MR. 12 Mv. 16/2. Prec. 10 Weapons: Bronze Mace (Dmg. 7). Armour: Bronze Brigandine (Prot 13) Skull Helmet (Prot. 9), Bronze Shield. Ambidextrous (4)
Gluttony (4) Darkvision (100) Berserk (0) Demon.

Commanders:
Nubian Scout

Zaty (commander)
Ammon Kandake (Ammon High Priestess)
Qore (Priestess)
Ammon King.

Ammon Ophiuchi: Mage-priests of the Ammon Kush, and followers of the Old Ways. Huge (standard Jotun sized) purple skinned, heavily tattoo'd warrior-shamans with strange amber eyes, they arm themselves with an enormous magical bone rattle that causes Decay to whatever it strikes, scale armour made from human skullbones, and a full helmet fashioned from the skull of a wildebeast. Instead of left arms, they have 2 huge black asps which do deadly poison damage. They have Death1/Nature1/Holy1, Regeneration (5%) and Healing (5) and are considered to be demons.
Hp. 45 Siz. 4 Str. 26 Att. 15, Def. 12, Prot. 15 (6), Mor. 15 MR. 16 Mv. 16/2. Prec. 10 Weapons: Death Rattle (Dmg 5, Magical, Decay), Asp Arm (2 attacks, Dmg 3 No Str. Armour Neg. Strong Poison.) Armour: Bone Scale (Prot. 8) Beast Helmet (Prot. 10) Sacred.
Gold 350, Resources 25. Gluttony (4)
Poor Leader, Average Undead Leader.

Ammon Bana-Gui. (mage)

Summons:

Gorgops: Size 5, waterform trampler (better in the water than on land), Patrol Bonus (5), Berserk (5) Fear (5), Recuperates damage/Regenerates in the water.

Hibi: amphibious spirit.

Izingogo. Blood Summons animal.

Tuyobene. Undead. Sacred. Lifedrain Bite, Stealth, Regeneration +10, Recuperation, No Need to Eat, Darkvision 100%, Cold Res 100%, Poison Res 100%. Bronze Glaive, Buckler, Nzappa Zap.

Tuyobene Tyerkao. Mounted commander of the Tuyobene.

Nandi. Ground Sloth.

Ophiuchus: Unique summon. The Ophiuchus is the essential spirit of a constellation in the night's sky, worshipped and feared by the Ammon Giants. This is a giant being of shadow, it's body defined by bright pinpricks of light, like a starry night sky. Wrapped around it's wrists, it holds the twin heads of a ghostly amphisbaena. It gains considerable power in darkness (+10) and is immortal and etherial. It has Fear (+3), Astral 5, Nature 3, Death 3, Stealth (30). It also has Healing (100). It can attack twice in one round with the amphisbaena, each head doing armour-piercing magical damage and deadly poison.
Hp. 120 Siz. 6 Str. 20 Att. 20, Def. 20, Prot. 0 (0), Mor. 30 MR. 20 Mv. 15/3 (fly). Prec. 15 Weapons: Amphisbaena (2 attacks, magical, deadly poison, damage 15 no Str.). Gold 0, Resources 0. Thaumaturgy 9, Astral 6, 1/50 Astral Gems.

Mashataan. Horror Commander.

Irimu Tsavo. Blood summon: 2 headed lion-demon weirdness.

Vembi. National Horror.

Iron Viper.

Heroes:
Imaro
Mwami Ruanda.
Thutanas.
King Alara.
Sundiata Keita.

Multiheroes:
Mangabaan: Immortal, Size 3, HP. 30 Str. 24 Prot. 20, Holy 1, Earth 4, Superior Leader, Fire Res 50%, Cold Res 50%, Poison Res 50%, Shock Res 50%. Sacred. 2 Magical Fist attacks (x3 vs demons).
Cloud Strider
Erriten Sorceror
Bahindhya Snake Charmer
Mawambututssi.

Pretender: Banefire Engine (aka absolutely the latest in home security systems).
Unique. Hp. 150 Siz. 6 Str. 25 Att. 16 Def. 8 Prot. 24 (24) Mor. 30 MR. 18 Mv. Immobile, no Teleport. Prec. 16 Weapons: Moon Bite x 4 (double damage to magical beings), Banefire Strike. Armour: None. Inanimate, NNE, 100% Fire Res. 100% Poison Res. Fear (0) Banefire Aura. Heat Aura (5) Patrol Bonus (30). Darkvision (100%). Ambidextrous (4). 4 misc slots.
Earth 1, Death 1. Dominion 1. Cost: 250.

Re: Ammon Kush-Darkest Africa
 

Reserved for graphics.

Re: Ammon Kush-Darkest Africa
 

lol you are flooding the boards with nations http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

Re: Ammon Kush-Darkest Africa
 

Yeah, I've been wanting to make some more for a while now, but the time consuming nature of the graphics was always a major obstacle (Either in the case of the poor graphics of F'Thaqqua, or the-most likely-lost graphics of my Mountain Kings mod). So I decided not to bother with the graphics at all, or the more technical aspects of the DM file, and concentrate on making the nations I wanted to make, minus the hassles associated with completing the modding process.

That way, I can do work, bit by bit, and by the time I do have a personal computer, I can compile everything at my leisure, since I'll have everything done but (maybe) the graphics, the balancing, and the actual DM file.

Re: Ammon Kush-Darkest Africa
 

Thought I'd give this a bump, since it'll probably be the next nation I do graphics for.

Re: Ammon Kush-Darkest Africa
 

More nations is always a bonus. Also, you might want to add a human Warrior King (Tchaka) and Impis as well.

What about adding a fully Hindu nation comprised of Humans serving the shiny divine guys? Or a nation of Khazar and\or Armenian heritage? That would more or less cover the planet, bonus if anyone can make a nation of North American Natives, with many tribes united under Iroquis, with a few Cherokee and other tribes I forgot their names.

Re: Ammon Kush-Darkest Africa
 

Foodstamp made a Haida Gwaii nation which covers some degree of native North Americans I believe.

Re: Ammon Kush-Darkest Africa
 

This is Kush/Nubia (very Egypt-flavored), not Zululand, so no Tchaka, no Impis. Maybe I'll do a Zulu nation someday.

Zanzibar I'm already determined to eventually do (LA of Aksum, probably), unless someone beats me to it-should be pretty easy, since it can draw from general African, Islamic/Persian, and Ethiopian themes, as well as it's own culture.

I want to do Central Africa (Kanem-Bornu), maybe with the Sao as the EA (possibly another giant nation, probably reptilian in nature, with dinosaur summons, which would mostly be based on speculation), Congo as MA (pygmies and dinosaurs!), and Mali as LA.

Other African possibilities include the Songhai and the Dahomey, and maybe a nation based on Tsodilo, in Botswana. And ofcourse something could be done with Madagaskar.

Khazar/Armenia might be fun. I wanted to try to do a Jainist nation, but I don't know where to begin.
I also want to do a nation based on the Sea Peoples-that will possibly be the MA of Kush-if time and will allows.

And I'd like to see a deep ocean nation. Right now we've got Atlantis-coastal, Oceania-main ocean, and R'Lyeh-which also appears to be coastal. Leaving the trenches untapped. And maybe the reefs. I've got a few ideas for both of those.

And at some point, I hope to do a somewhat generic Native American nation with giants, based on the North East tribes (I'm going to call it 'Kwnesho Kwnee' after a road I used to live on). I'd also like to see an undead Native American influenced nation-I've got some ideas for that one.

Haida Gwaii is an excellent Native American nation already, though.

I'd love to see a good Laos/South East Asia nation, and atleast one islander nation.
And someone really ought to do something for Wales, maybe Scotland. The Isle of Man is also a possibility.

We don't have anything for Australia/New Zealand yet, either.

I'm hoping you'll do Turkey.

Re: Ammon Kush-Darkest Africa
 

Actually, Haida Gwaii would really qualify more as a Canadian nation.

Re: Ammon Kush-Darkest Africa
 

Would you folks lend me a hand if I just program unit definitions while someone draws? I'm a horrible artist.

I can get started any time.

theblasphemy is my address if you add h0wtma1l to it (webspider evasion!)

I am eager to help with designs.

Re: Ammon Kush-Darkest Africa
 

I'm not a GOOD artist, but with a little training, even I may improve :D !

Perhaps you should try modifying existing sprites. Personally, I started this way, using ImageForge and the original units' sprites.
I found them following this thread :

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com//showthread.php?t=37793


And thanks to EricM !!!

Re: Ammon Kush-Darkest Africa
 

Starting on a mod tomorrow... Check it out.

Re: Ammon Kush-Darkest Africa
 

I've added a few graphics to this Mod effort, so I'm going to give this a bump. I wouldn't say that they're all 100% done, but I'm still getting a handle on the "look" of these guys (and their stats), and I'm proud of the work done so far. The skeleton guy on the top is sacred, while the rest are recruits.

Re: Ammon Kush-Darkest Africa
 

Bump-I'm definitely going to give this one enough attention to claim it with justification, so it's no longer available for anyone else to take over. Hooray for me!

Re: Ammon Kush-Darkest Africa
 

Since it's Halloween (mine and my wife's favorite holiday, and our wedding anniversary) I decided to add a couple of undead sprites to Ammon Kush, in celebration. None of them are entirely original to me, but all have been extensively modified for use.

I'm not sure what's possible with the new mod commands we'll be getting, but if it's possible, Ammon will be getting some undead reanimation of it's own-namely, Longdead Nandi at Holy 3.

Thanks to Nounours for his beautiful artwork, it's inspired me, egged me on, and made me quite jealous :p and thus, a better artist.

Re: Ammon Kush-Darkest Africa
 

If it results in such nice sprites, I'm glad you're jealous :D!

I really hope you will release Ammon Kush soon, I want to play it !!

BTW, I put a lot of efforts in my sprites because of people like you, HB, or like Kristoffer O, Sombre or Amos, whose work make me really want to do good job :p!

Re: Ammon Kush-Darkest Africa
 

It's very cool to see nations based on african mythology. I think Africa is an area who lacked diversity.

Your sprites are cool, especially the lizard headed guys, the giants and the hippopotamuses.
The human soldiers look a bit strange though, maybe can you use Machaka as bases ?
I also think the hydra like creature is too big (oris that intended ?).

Btw I can't wait to test this nation.:up:

Re: Ammon Kush-Darkest Africa
 

The sprites will continue to be updated, until I feel they're as good as they're going to get, but I'm not going to use Machaka sprites-for one, I don't have access to them, and for another, Nubia-which this Nation represents, is a lot different than Ashanti culture, which I feel is the closest to what Machaka represents. So the people of Nubia are intentionally different in appearance from the Machakans.

And the "hydra" is actually an enormous, ancient machine, which is also one of this Nation's Pretenders-maybe the only one, I haven't decided yet.

Re: Ammon Kush: The Skeleton Coast.
 

Bump just to guilt HoneyBear :P

Re: Ammon Kush: The Skeleton Coast.
 

Why make an immortal healing? immortals already heal afflictions by default.

Re: Ammon Kush: The Skeleton Coast.
 

Healers heal other people's afflictions. Being immortal only lets units heal their own affliction. You may be confusing Healer with Recuperation.

Re: Ammon Kush: The Skeleton Coast.
 

In mod commands #heal = recuperation. Leading to some confusion.

Re: Ammon Kush: The Skeleton Coast.
 

I didn't know that - thanks :)

Re: Ammon Kush: The Skeleton Coast.
 

Please finish this mod, HoneyBadger! I want to try it.

P.S. - maybe the reason the Nubian soldiers look a bit "cartoony" is that they seem to be wider than most Dom3 humans and their facial features are more emphasized than most (most of the Alchera units have no nose or clearly defined mouth!). More power to you for doing these from scratch - so far, I've has to start from an existing sprite for everything.

Re: Ammon Kush: The Skeleton Coast.
 

Also because they look like crazy gollywog blackfaces :]

Re: Ammon Kush: The Skeleton Coast.
 

I take offense to your implication of racism, Sombre, and I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one who would, if not at the implication, then certainly at the terms "gollywog" and "blackface". My limited artistic ability notwithstanding, I'm atleast attempting to shed a tiny bit of light on Africa's cultures and myths. In part because of the African blood in my own family.

I hate to make this personal, but considering that most if not all of your mods have been obvious and admitted ripoffs of Warhammer, 300, and other sources, rather than original works, and that you're not a perfect artist yourself, despite the hype, I'd appreciate it if you'd keep your narrow views to yourself, Sombre.

I'm doing the best that I can to make it clear that these are Africans, not the vaguely brownish shapes that Machaka uses. If that's not good enough for you, then kindly devote your energies to your own incomplete mods, rather than attempting to flame mine.

Re: Ammon Kush: The Skeleton Coast.
 

And out of a clear sky.... Its okay HB, no need to go into full blown attack/defense mode. The art looks fine to me, though I am a bit more into less vibrant colors.

Re: Ammon Kush: The Skeleton Coast.
 

I disagree that it's ok. I feel it's entirely unacceptible to spout such aspersions based on as difficult and inaccurate a medium as pixel art. It was clearly and obviously a statement that was either entirely unthought-out, or one specifically meant to inflame and cause disruption to the thread. In either case, it's irresponsible and--as you say--completely out of the blue in relation to the overall thread.

I'm also nowhere near full blown attack/defense mode, trust me.

Re: Ammon Kush: The Skeleton Coast.
 

What are you on about? The sprites are basically pure black with big white eyes and big red mouths. I'm not trying to suggest you're racist, just joking about why they might seem cartoonish.

Picture of gollywog follows for reference:

http://www.pootergeek.com/wp-content/Golly.jpg

My mods are not obvious and admitted ripoffs of anything. They're designed to bring warhammer nations to dom3. If they succeeded in feeling exactly like the source material, it would be gratifying to hear. So I'd hardly be 'admitting' to 'ripping off' the source, would I? Arga Dis is only very loosely inspired by 300. If you had seen the film 300 and played the mod (I strongly doubt you have) you'd see that.

I also never claim to be a perfect artist or anything near - my words on that topic have always been "I am not an artist and have zero artistic talent" to which anyone can attest. The fact you talk about 'hype' is pretty worrying. I'm not going to apologise for people enjoying my mods, that's the entire reason I post them up.

I wasn't trying to disrupt the thread at all. I was posting bang on topic - part of the reason the graphics look cartoonish is the (by dom3 standards) huge mouth and eyes on the humans. I also think your graphics have improved a lot and certainly have their own style. I'm not sure why you're trying to make some feeble attack on my mods. It isn't like I'm going to take that personally - I can accept some people don't like them and I'm not going to be too cut up about you not playing them because you don't play dom3 anyway :/

Re: Ammon Kush: The Skeleton Coast.
 

All that said, since the original post did come across less like a joke and more like a straightforward criticism of your graphics, I apologise for that. I'm in no position to judge the graphics given the apparent effort you've put in.

Re: Ammon Kush: The Skeleton Coast.
 

Well, here is my 2 cents.

Yeah, the black-skinned giants look a bit cartoony. My guess is that the large areas of a single color create that feeling. Perhaps yuo could accessorize (like amulets and large girdles (see my avatar for an example)) them a bit to break the areas.

My personal two favourites are the two-headed red beast (I really like how you highlighted the head to create a nice emphasis) and the tarnished gold guy with pike at the right edge (he's just all around solid, graphically).

I really like the freakish large guys in general. Those seem to be your specialty, so to speak.

I'll be around in these forums for a looooong time and I hope to see this nation come to fruition. When it does, I'll be sure to give it a whirl.

Re: Ammon Kush: The Skeleton Coast.
 

Sombre: I have played Arga Dis quite often. It's one of my favorite mods, infact, so yes I'm very familiar with it.

As far as the mouth goes, it's only 1 pixel wide. The same size as almost all human mouths I've drawn. Can't make it any smaller than that. Any steriotypical resemblance is unfortunate, but I disagree that there are any obvious parallels to be drawn. The human sprites (including the style of clothes worn) are based on photos of certain groups of people from Timbuktu and Côte d'Ivoire.

My problem is that I feel this is a fairly sensitive subject: Not the issue of racism alone--we're all used to that--but the ideal of portraying Africa as something other than a steriotypical unknown, and from a position other than that of ignorance.

Also, the "black skinned giants" are purple, and have glowing orange eyes.

Re: Ammon Kush: The Skeleton Coast.
 

The problem with using a pixel for eyes is that 1 pixel is about 1/4 of an entire human face (from looking at things like militia). The end result on a size 2 unit is very likely to look a bit cartoonish, especially in comparison to the base game's art which tends towards the impressionistic. Maybe if the eyes were less glaringly white, it might look less exaggerated.

Re: Ammon Kush: The Skeleton Coast.
 

Somber,

Please stop. If you want to make another Somber Celebration thread linking to your own mods, go ahead. This thread is about an upcoming mod authored by someone else. Some people are looking forward to it and would like to welcome HB back to the boards and encourage him to continue.


HB: I am not a frequent poster on this board, but I've been here since Dom3 came out and I want you to know that mods that keep the flavour of Dom3, mixing regional mythologies with fantastic elements are really what pique my interest! And we've had a dearth of new additions lately!

Pixel art be damned! I care most about flavour, setting, and balance anyhow. If I wanted sexy art I would fire up Crysis again xD!

Re: Ammon Kush: The Skeleton Coast.
 

And regarding the race issue:

Gentlemen, we are playing a game that seems to celebrate racial stereotype and the interplay between fact, culture, myth, and stereotype. If you want to get angry about something, try Aztec demon-apocalypsing, blood sacrificing, barbaric jerks! Even all of their sacred Gods are considered "Demons."

To pull you out of some ethnocentric thinking, consider if Illwinter had included a unit "YHWH" with genus: Demon.

This argument is silly.

Re: Ammon Kush: The Skeleton Coast.
 

Thanks for your support, thepodger.

Re: Ammon Kush: The Skeleton Coast.
 

Sombre are you trying to suggest that the only mod acknowledging the existence of African tradition and myth feature a race anything other than the blackest of blacks out of some misplaced fear/sense of racial justice? That is some seriously retrogressive anti-racism there. Race theory has progressed since the 1980s...

I would suggest that anyone with a modicum of respect for HB or an ounce of anticipation for any of his mods please confine the extraneous threads of this debate to a new topic in the general forum.

Re: Ammon Kush: The Skeleton Coast.
 

It's strange that you're asking people to take it to another thread when you seem to be the only guy going on about it. I haven't mentioned race at all.

Re: Ammon Kush: The Skeleton Coast.
 

Um.

You were the one who introduced the racist elements. It wasn't anyone else. You're the origin of this mess, and the thread disruption, and thepodger isn't the only one who wishes you to take it elsewhere.

Re: Ammon Kush: The Skeleton Coast.
 

[pacification]
Intent and impact are both important in evaluating actions. Whatever the impact, Sombre's intent was clearly not to stir the racial pot. As a fan of not only mods in general but this community as a whole, the worst possible outcome would be anything that damages those. In that spirit, I'll move back to talking about important things, like Dom 3 mods :)
[/pacification]


I do happen to think that the very red lips look out of place. Maybe more crimson shades or a more brick red? It's the contrast, I feel, that's jarring. On a more positive note, the texturing on the hippo is absolutely awesome. Did you use a different source to generate that? I'd love to see more along that line.

On the whole, I think the concept is great and I'm absolutely dying to try the mod.

Re: Ammon Kush: The Skeleton Coast.
 

I feel bad - I think it was actually my comment about some of the sprites looking "cartoony" that prompted sombre's joke... and then everything went downhill fast.

I think this has a lot to do with the fact that, like it or not, race is still a big issue, at least here in the U.S., and while prejudice here is increasingly anti-Hispanic, living in a college-town in Florda, I can tell you that there is <i>still</i> a "white" side and a "black" side of town, and that <i>all</i> of the development money goes to the white side. Faux-plantation style apartment buildings with boutique shops on the 1st floor were sprouting up like toadstools after the rain until the market crashed, but even at the height of the "boom," east Gainesville couldn't get a [SELF-CENSORED] Walmart. Seriously. Residents campaigned for it, and Walmart offered to put one in - but only if the City would sell them a public park in west Gainesville to build a Super Walmart and Sam's Club Complex on.

And me? I protested the proposed sale of the park and felt guilty at the same time. <i>AND</i> I worried a lot before posting Alchera because I was afraid that I'd wind up offending someone out of ignorance.

So, what does all this have to do with the recent unpleasantness on this thread? Not much, I guess. I just figured if I told a long, rambling, confessional and slightly embarrassing story about myself it'd distract everyone from the argument.

--

"Mackenzie is half demon," Dee said. "Her true self is as much a wuss as it is a demon. [...] Is that word insulting in and of itself? I apologize deeply," Dee said, bowing. "I had inferred, based on the people who used it and the context in which it was used, that it referred to a finer quality which was being disparaged by tone."

Sorry for being somewhat off-topic, but I wanted to comment on where you saw potential existing for more nations.

Atlantis is deep ocean - read their EA fluff, its right there in the manual/nation selection info.

Rlyeh also seems to be predominantly deep ocean, or at least ambiguous.

And of course Oceania has Coral King as a hero - which implies reef. Oceania is in general coastal - this 'main ocean' has no referrent. What do you think that is?

I think the general Ocean ecology is fairly well-tapped. Which isn't to say that different Ocean races occupying some of those same ecologies but with different concepts couldn't work. Although it could be rather hard to do...

(FWIW, the ocean is actually divided into shelf (coast), slope (bathyal), and abyssal plain with a few specialized ecologies - eg, Hadal depths (trench). Abyssal plain is so low energy that I can't imagine a civilization actually living there, not to mention there isn't much exciting about it - its just a wide swath of muck. Which leads me to conclude that Atlantis is either Hadal (up from trench habitats) or lower bathyal. Rlyeh is probably upper bathyal - nestled in a gorge that cuts into the continental shelf (a gorge is explicitly the location of EA, and since the star impacts there, thus of all eras, and you don't get deeper than upper bathyal and still have gorges). Oceania is obviously our shelf power.

I suppose you could argue for an open-ocean power, except you can't build fortresses there... Or really have a civilization at all...)

Seriously? We're already overloaded with gaelic nations. Marveni, Man, Eriu/Tir Na Og, Fomoria. Gaelic nations are the *last* thing we need more of. Especially since the mythological material for, eg, Wales/Scottland is really incomplete, and the king Arthur material is in use by Man already - making it as 'Welsh' as you're going to get with the source material.

Ok, i take that back. Greco-roman nations are the last thing we need more of, followed closely by gaelic nations.

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What seem to really be missing (though I do not have exhaustive knowledge of the existing mods) are:
-Islamic/Arabian nation, easily 3 eras here.
-Persia, easily 3 eras here
-Steppes horse tribes (Huns, Mongols, etc...), probably 2 eras (incl. Samarkand here).

Pacific Islanders seem to have a good mod, at least in development (don't recall how finished it is), which would be the other major hole.

That gets us at least nominal coverage of central asia and mesopotamia (which is actually woefully undercovered - Abysia is the only Mesopotamian nation, and only represents Sumer/Babylon - and then only mildly).

After those big blank areas are filled in, some other possible nation themes:
-Finnish, based on the Kalevala. Yeah, its european, but its different enough from all its neighbors and well documented enough you could squeeze an era out of this.
-MA Bogarus, likely based primarily on Nart's Saga. Russia only getting one era is kind of sad. They should at least have some MA representation. Nart's Saga represents the Caucusus, and so is at least sort of pushing into/towards Asia.
-Possibly a Mayan and/or Incan nation (although it could be hard to differentiate from Aztec-inspired Mictlan)
-Islamic Spain. Separate enough politically and culturally from the islamic empire historically to justify a separate existence - 1 era.
-Georgia (ie, the former Russian republic), focusing mainly on the Prester John legends. One era. Possibly combine it with Crusader States history.

But these are all sidelines.

I'm not sure how much more you can do with Africa for nations. Nubia was actually a really good choice because it has abundant history due to its middle eastern ties. But as you move farther south you end up with tribal societies that never really formed nations until they were imposed upon them, with the sole exception of the Zulu (who could make for a cool LA nation if there's enough diversity of material), and who have no recorded history.

Zanzibar, Mali, and other parts of N. Africa (saharan and mediterranean) are mostly part of a greater islamic nation/empire historically, and could easily represent specialized troops of such a nation from an appropriate time period. Civ IV made the reach of making Mali a playable civ based solely on the era of Timbuktu as a center of research and islamic culture - and what they were doing was fishing for African nations to de-eurocentrize the game, a noble goal but the source material is thin.

Similar to Africa, N. America is hard to represent because what few nations there were left little evidence of their culture behind. And one could certainly argue that N. Am is better represented than it has any hope of being, with LA Atlantis being very much an Inuit-inspired nation.

At the end of the day you can only have so many nations that amount to 'unarmored or poorly armored people with crude weapons'. Yes, they have different mythologies, but you end up with a lot of nations that are basically the same with variant summons and slightly different national mage paths. You also get at most one era out of many of these. Not to mention Mictlan seems to have stolen liberally from other american traditions - eagle warriors would have been one of the most thematic units for a possible N. Am. nation, and have nothing to do with the Aztecs.

Basically, cultural breadth is good, but go where the source material is.

(Edit: If I do a mod, it'll be the Islamic one. I have ideas. I need to figure out how to do artwork).

Re: Ammon Kush: The Skeleton Coast.
 

You have some good points, Squirrelloid (Scotland/Wales/Isle of Man would be nice to see, but there are higher priorities), although a lot of the ideas you've mentioned--Kalevala in particular--are already in the process of being modded in. Myself, I'm already working on a Persia-inspired EA Nation (Partha: The Ageless Empire).

Descriptions notwithstanding, I disagree that either Atlantis or R'lyeh EA capture the idea of a real deep ocean Empire. The Aboleths are muck-dwellers who interact extensively with humans and humanoids, and the Atlantians are humanoids who also interact with humans (other than aggressively). I'd prefer to see perhaps something like a "Deep Atlantian" Nation that involved indigenous deep ocean critters like krakens and tube worms, for instance. Or maybe a Nation that didn't rely on humanoid troops at all. I had an idea for one of those a while back, but so far it's a dead end.

As well, I've also got plans to at some point do an underwater MA Nation based on the Mamluks that will involve a dying Aboleth species and their increasingly powerful slaves, and I've got atleast a vague idea for a subterranean Aboleth Nation in the LA.

As far as Northern America goes, I'm interested in being involved in atleast two mods so far: One will be a 'Giant' Nation (North East coast and into Canada, with minor Norse influences), while the other will be an undead and shapeshifting subterranean Nation (Western, centered around the Grand Canyon). A third might be based on the Kachina, but I don't have a lot of ideas so far. If anything, it might become an era of the "Grand Canyon" Nation. I don't see a problem with modding out the Eagle warriors and modding something more traditional in. Condor warriors? More appropriate for South America, I would think? Leaving the Eagles for another Nation's use.

Spain's an excellent idea. I think that it could support atleast an EA Nation (your Moorish theme) and a more Spanish oriented MA Nation. Probably a LA Portuguise/Spanish Nation as well.

It would be extremely cool to see an ocean-going Nation based on Venice, Rhodes, Malta, and Sicily, with every era represented. Possibly something with the Barbary Coast, as well, or just integrating the idea of African and Arabian pirates.

The Zulu should absolutely get their own Nation. I've got some ideas there, having researched their myths. I also want to work on one involving pygmies (Hoburgs?) and dinosaurs, themed via the Congo. Don't know if I'll ever get around to it, though, but if anyone's interested, I have some ideas, and I guarantee fun, if not a lot of consistency. Mali can easily be adapted into it's own Nation, as well, even ignoring the Islamic influence. It practically writes itself, infact. My Aksum Nation already draws from the Ghana Empire, but it might be better to take some of the material from there and apply it to a Wagadou based Nation? Quite possibly with Lobi influences. Since there's really almost too much for a single Nation there. I've wanted to do something with Zanzibar for a while now. The idea currently is to make it the LA Aksum, with Islam themes becoming predominant over Christian influences, with a middle Nation exploring the role of missionaries in Africa, the sailing ability of Ethiopians, and the rise of Vodou. There's yet another EA Nation that I'd like to explore, involving the pictograms of Tsodilo (the site of possibly the very first human myths-atleast that we know about. Some of the artifacts date back 70,000 years). The general idea would be a snake/lizardman-oriented culture (something like the Naga) with heavy access to illusions and constructs, influenced by Botswana, bushmen, and generic South African themes. Possibly an EA, eventually giving rise to the Zulu?

I could probably come up with several more for Africa, to be honest. Great Zimbabwe has always struck a chord with me, for instance, even if the material is a little light.

It would also be interesting to do something involving the Nasca pictograms in South America, and the supposed (rather laughable, but involving a lot of material to draw from) "chariots of the gods" connection to UFOs. I could easily see the Inca being involved here. The Olmec are also of interest.

Korea is a must.

I also really want to see something based on Java, Indonesia, and Micronesia (not sure what yet), and Funan/Chenla/Khmer (I'm thinking EA, as a "homeland" for the Naga, rising in spirituality and might in the MA-with hydras-and later turning into an undead Nation after the Nagas are driven out.).

Finally, there are tons of other islands that have enough material that we should be able to cobble atleast one or a few Nations from them. Hawaii is the most obvious, and would add another jewel to North America's crown, without being derivative. If one takes all of the Caribbean, and perhaps throw in the Deep South and New Orleans as well, I think there could be another Nation there too.

I disagree about the idea of many of these cultures being locked into a "stone age" sensibility. We can choose to ignore or fudge that historic lock easily enough. After all, there are enough conspiracy theorists that propose these ancient peoples had better technology than we traditionally think they did, and that's a mythology all it's own. Africa certainly had iron, and the Americas had limited access to atleast copper, so giving them bronze is only a small leap of faith. Having more stone-age Nations has the benefit of making more technological Nations rarer and more special. too. Not a bad thing. After all, the biggest difference between them isn't whether they're using steel swords or not, it's their unique history and myths/spirituality.

Re: Ammon Kush: The Skeleton Coast.
 

Wow, HoneyBadger, that's awesome. :bow: If/when I finish my Alchera "trilogy" (look for an "alpha" version of MA Alchera/Aotearoa soon), I'd be interested in collaborating on (really, any) of those.

I know that one of the things I had to "get over" in making EA Alchera was that neither the Australian Aborigines nor the Maori have an "empire building" period in their history. I concluded that that one one of the things I needed to imagine: what <i>would</i> such an empire have looked like?

Likewise about escaping the "stone age." MA Aotearoa will feature some heavier arms and armor, from trade, but also mixed feelings about their use. In the late era, I plan to have a mix of fully "modernized" units and more mystical "traditional" soldiers, just returned from the dreamtime.

I didn't mean to hijack your thread to talk about my own ideas... you just got me thinking.

A thought: a truly "deep" nation might have some "Deep One" Atlanteans as its most "shallow" units, and the rest would be non-hmost of the rest would be nonhumanoid and blind or have full darkvision. The Deep Ones could be their only immediately land-capable units. This would put them at a disadvantage in most games, but would be an interesting balance for games on "Wrap around Water" and similar mostly-ocean maps (I'm playing EA Atlantis in "Water War" right now, which is why this comes to mind).

my 2c

Re: Ammon Kush: The Skeleton Coast.
 

I don't mind. I'm happy to see more such ideas. Hijack away! :)