Standards - MA Game (running)
 

I'm in need of a new middle age game and since I can't find one I figured I'd start one. My hope is to use the llamaserver. Visit the llamabeast FAQ on how to make a pretender and join a game using the llamaserver. The game is open to all experience levels. Further details listed below:

Age: middle
Mods: Worthy Heros 1.8
Map: Latest Version (3.1)
Players: 12

Renaming: allowed
All Other Settings: default

Nation/Player Update:
Abyssia / hoo (anticipatient)
Arcoscephale / fungalreason (nozshand) :hurt:
Ashod / Calahan
Bandar Log / konming
Caelum / JimMorrison
Mictlan / AreaOfEffect
Man / Fakeymcfake
Pangaea / PsiSoldier :hurt:
Pythium / chrispedersen :hurt:
Ry'leh / Jazzepi
Ulm / Deadnature
Vanheim / 46852

:hurt:: Eliminated

Re: Standards - MA Game (sign-up)
 

Hey,

I'll sign up for this game. This will be my first MP game of Dom3, so excuse me for my noobness :)

If possible, I'd like to just reserve a spot in the game and decide my nation after a while? I can ofcourse pick a nation immediately if you want, but I'd like to get familiar with the MA nations before I make my pick...


PS. I vote for Hall of Fame setting of 15 :)

Re: Standards - MA Game (sign-up)
 

I'd like to play, but I've decided at this point that I'm pretty sensitive to map choice. I'm tired of playing on maps with an infinite number of choke points, and very little room for maneuvering.

I would recommend that you simply decide on the number of people you want to play with, and try to fill it from there.

All of that said, I'm interested in playing with the caveat that I /may/ pull out once the map has been selected.

If you're okay with that, I'd like to play EA Ry'leh.

Jazzepi

Re: Standards - MA Game (sign-up)
 

I'm in, MA Man preferably.

Re: Standards - MA Game (sign-up)
 

This is a MA game. If Jazzepi indeed wanted to pick EA R'lyeh, I will pick MA R'lyeh. :)

Re: Standards - MA Game (sign-up)
 

im in, ma acro

Re: Standards - MA Game (sign-up)
 

Count me in please. I'll take Ashdod.

My preferences for what it's worth :-)

Hall of Fame 10 if 10 players or less, HoF 15 if 11 or more players.

Victory by consent (Have come to the conclusion capital VP's aren't the best since all it does is flag up the capitals for the early rushers. Plus if a nation is powerful enough to have captured 60+% of the capitals anyway, there's not going to be many left who'll disagree if they claim an overall victory at that stage)

Graphs on.

Plus I agree with 'Jazzepi' in that I think some maps are getting used too often and are therefore losing their appeal big time, Cradle of Dominion is one for me. I'd be happy with Glory of the Gods(Mp), Random (say average of 15provinces each) or the Alexander map is an interesting one, although can get a little crowded on land if there are too many nations.

Re: Standards - MA Game (sign-up)
 

Oh bollox, Ashdod and Man taken already, my top 2... I'll have to get familiar with more nations then :)

Re: Standards - MA Game (sign-up)
 

I'll grab Vanheim then, have to get busy testing them in SP!

Re: Standards - MA Game (sign-up)
 

Haha, very funny.

Jazzepi

Re: Standards - MA Game (sign-up)
 

May I suggest looking here for an interesting map.

Re: Standards - MA Game (sign-up)
 

My intention was to build a random map. I too am tired of the same old maps and I'll be sure to remove the abundance of choke points. Making mountains passable will surely do this. It also allows me to adjust the water provinces accordingly. The map will have 18 provinces per player. I guarantee you'll be happy with the map Jazzepi. If your not, then I'll make a new one.

For the sake of being specific, I'll set the number of players to 10. This leaves us only 4 more slots to fill. 3 if konming really want to play.

Players: 6/10

Nation and Players:
Arcoscephale / nozshand
Ashod / Calahan
Mictlan / AreaOfEffect
Man / Fakeymcfake
Ry'leh / Jaxxepi
Vanheim / 46852

Edit: Thanks for the link llamabeast, though I was already aware of those. Once I know how many water nations there are I might consider looking those over again rather then generating a bunch of maps. Though I'm pretty set on a custom map for this game, unless the players aren't of course.

Re: Standards - MA Game (sign-up)
 

Sign me up for Ulm if we're playing MA...

Re: Standards - MA Game (sign-up)
 

Marignon please.

Re: Standards - MA Game (sign-up)
 

Huh. I don't really know any other MA nations well.
As there is only one more spot can I be in with either
Pan/Arc/Mict?

Re: Standards - MA Game (sign-up)
 

Since R'lyeh is taken, I will get my pawns on Bandar Log. :)

Re: Standards - MA Game (sign-up)
 

nozshand has already asked for Arcoscephale and I've laid claim to Mictlan. Pangaea is open however. A very good faction in middle age in my opinion. Free spawn (w/ turmoil), some carrion dead, earthquake mages, high defense sacreds, thugable commanders, blood magic, and so on and so forth. I'll mark you down as Pangaea for now.

Also, we still have one slot left open after you. I think I'll start making a map for only one water faction and cross my fingers.

Players: 10/10

Nation and Players:
Arcoscephale / nozshand
Ashod / Calahan
Bandar Log / konming
Mictlan / AreaOfEffect
Man / Fakeymcfake
Marignon / Dedas
Pangaea / chrispedersen
Ry'leh / Jaxxepi
Ulm / Deadnature
Vanheim / 46852

Edit: Nevermind the open slot business. Glad to see you join us Kon. I'll get to work on that map and set up a game so people can start submitting pretenders.

Re: Standards - MA Game (sign-up)
 

I must have gone through about 20-30 maps until I was happy. Half way through I remembered there is a new upload limit and almost chopped up the zip file into small pieces, but instead I made a MediaFire account. A much better call.

The map has almost no choke points and allows just about everyone access to mountains, forest, and ocean sites, which can be important. I made sure Ry'leh would start in the slightly larger ocean by making the other one a no start site zone.

Here is the link to the map files: Standards.zip

Edit: Pardon me if the site is annoying.

Re: Standards - MA Game (sign-up)
 

The game page has been started on the llamaserver. I'm currently having issues with uploading the image map file onto the server. I'll eventually resolve the issue or distribute another map. Until then you can upload your pretenders.

Re: Standards - MA Game (sign-up)
 

Bugger. I was going to post an interest in playing Caelum..... Because of the new forum anti-idle, I don't see all the new threads. :(

But it looks like I am too late to beg for mercy, so have fun for now..... cause I'll be coming for the winner! :o

Re: Standards - MA Game (sign-up)
 

I'm with Jim Morrison. :) If you could go to the limit of 12 that you originally mentioned, I'd love to join you in this game. If you decide to include me, I would like to try Abyssia.

Eriu, c'tis, agartha, t'ien ch'i and pythium would also be fine, if you are concerned about balance issues or something.

Re: Standards - MA Game (sign-up)
 

Well I do love beating astral gems out of Jim and it does give me a reason to make a new map and see if that will upload or not. Consider yourselves in the game pending some form of objection.

Players: 12/10

Nation and Players:
Abyssia / anticipatient
Arcoscephale / nozshand
Ashod / Calahan
Bandar Log / konming
Caelum / JimMorrison
Mictlan / AreaOfEffect
Man / Fakeymcfake
Marignon / Dedas
Pangaea / chrispedersen
Ry'leh / Jaxxepi
Ulm / Deadnature
Vanheim / 46852

P.S.: Does anticipatient know some about Abyssia that I don't. I'm personally more worried about Ry'leh and their lack of underwater competition.

Re: Standards - MA Game (sign-up)
 

Didn't you know? MA Abysia now gets "Giantbreds"! Size 5, 63hp giants with Heat 6 aura. O.O

Oh the horror.....

Wait, did I mention they come with Fear+5, and have 4 arms?? :rolleyes:

Re: Standards - MA Game (sign-up)
 

If there is still room, I'll join with Either Shinuyama, C'tis or Machaka. Ive never played with Shin or Machaka and never Middle C'tis but any of those look ok to me. If you let me join you can pick whichever race for me.

Re: Standards - MA Game (sign-up)
 

Sorry PsiSoldier, 12 is the limit for real. Also, I've not only painstaking created a new map I'm pleased with but I managed to upload it successfully. Speaking of which, get the new map file from the annoying download site.

Re: Standards - MA Game (sign-up)
 

Now we have 12 players. Should the map be 18*12=216 provinces?

Re: Standards - MA Game (sign-up)
 

May I change to Pythium, por favor.

Re: Standards - MA Game (sign-up)
 

Brr... new forums have screwed up all the old links. Remember to update your sig links everyone. Took a while to find Llama's FAQ thread :)

Re: Standards - MA Game (sign-up)
 

Oh man, the ocean is so small. It's basically right on the verge of a perfect size for a single water nation. If we had another, it'd be far too small.

The thing to remember about water nations is that they tend to be much weaker on land than a normal land-born nation. R'yleh also lacks real archers (no the psi-blasters don't count), and they get mauled early on by nations with access to good archers, which are plentiful in indy provinces with the right pop type.

Jazzepi

Re: Standards - MA Game (sign-up)
 

But R'lyeh also gets those indy archers. :doh:

Re: Standards - MA Game (sign-up)
 

You're missing the point.

R'yleh's main troops get chewed up by the archers. There's nothing that comes out of their onland or offland citadels that carries a shield, or has really high protection, besides the meteroite guard, but it's better to just try to get a foot hold on land and build some heavy infantry. And even high protection, unless it's ridiculous Ulm levels, doesn't really protect you as well as having a shield and medium level armor.

Also, on this map, there's far fewer water territories to expand into then a given land nation has if you divide the number of land provinces / # of land players. Additionally, the land provinces are almost always in all directions, meaning you can expand in a concentric circle. On this map, the water nation has to basically expand in a straight line, which is awful because you have to do a lot of troop-time wasting back tracking.

Jazzepi

Re: Standards - MA Game (sign-up)
 

Not true, the little green Hybrid Troopers have a shield. And they're only 5 resources with 13 HP and two attacks. I avoided them for a long time, but that second attack makes them quite effective even against heavier troops - throw around some Body Ethereal or Luck buffing, and you've got a line that can shrug off a whole lot of arrows. ;)

Re: Standards - MA Game (sign-up)
 

Protection 5? :(

I don't think that makes them effective arrow catchers.

My point was that R'yleh lacks a really good means of "hey look at me, I'm your front line of shielded troops, we catch arrows".

Jazzepi

Re: Standards - MA Game (sign-up)
 

< shrug > Doesn't a 4 defense shield protect them from something like 60% of arrows anyways? If you are having purple Starspawns, or Starchildren buffing them, they'll be plenty survivable to most ranged troops, not to mention what they do to infantry.

Believe me, I was skeptical of their usefulness as well, until I decided to build a ton of them to replace my Meteorite Guards I had lost, and couldn't readily replenish. They're quite nice units. Not elite, just quite nice. ;)

Re: Standards - MA Game (sign-up)
 

I might have to try that out, then ;)

Jazzepi

Re: Standards - MA Game (sign-up)
 

When do we start?

Re: Standards - MA Game (sign-up)
 

AoE / All

I've been running a few test games on the map provided, and some of the start locations seem a bit un-balanced to me.

Good start locations include-

Land (120) - 5xMountains 1xWaste = Will have insanely good capital resources.
Land (128) - 3xNormal 2xMountains 1xForest 1xFarmland = Good all round, as 7 is a lot of bordering provinces for a start location.
Land (171) - 5xMountains = Will have insanely good capital resources.
Land (31) - 2xFarmland 2xNormal 2xMountain 1xSwamp 1xWaste = Good all round, and 8 is a crazy number of bordering provinces for a start location.
Land (148) - 3xFarmland 3xNormal = Should mean a huge amount on income very quickly.
Land (64) - 4xNormal 4xMountain = Good all round, and 8 is a crazy number of bordering provinces for a start location.
Land (100) - 5xNormal 1xFarmland 1xForest = Good all round, as 7 is a lot of bordering provinces for a start location.


Bad start locations-

Land (103) - 2xWater 1xFarmland 1xSwamp 1xNormal = Will have awful capital resources, and 3 bordering provinces is bare minimum for start location.
Land (72) - 2xNormal 1xFarmland 1xWater = Will have bad capital resources, and 3 bordering provinces is bare minimum for start location.
Land (45) - 3xNormal 2xWater = Will have bad capital resources, and 3 bordering provinces is bare minimum for start location.
Land (18) - 2xForest 1xSwamp 1xWater = Will have poor capital resources, and very poor income. Plus 3 bordering provinces is bare minimum for start location, and made worse by one being a swamp.
Land (176) - 2xMountain 1xFarmland = Any land start location that only has 3 bordering provinces is mostly always bad.


I'm not against Good or Bad starting locations in principal, but I think it will be too unbalancing if one nation starts in a really great location, while another nation starts in a really bad one. (18) and (103) being particularly bad in my opinion. These are also just a few examples which I seen, there way well be more of both.

Not sure if this is all just part of the map, and WaD, or if the fixed start locations aren't working or something (I have no experience with map making/editing).

What do others think? If this is a problem then best get it sorted before the game starts rather than having to go through several re-starts trying to make everyone happy.

Re: Standards - MA Game (sign-up)
 

Whoa. 8 connected provinces? :9 That's a bit much.

Jazzepi

Re: Standards - MA Game (sign-up)
 

Having tested a few games with the map, I agree with Calahan (no, he's not pointing a .44 at my head and forcing me to write this).

Some of the starting locations I received seemed really advantageous, while some were below average and presented some strategic difficulties at the same time.

I don't mind random maps, but fixed (at least on some level) starting locations are a must on them when playing MP.


PS. Looking at the start I just created, fixed locations would fix the possibility of crowded corners of the map etc. In this start, there's like 7 nations out of 12 packed in the southwest quarter of the map, and I have 3 nations' capitals 3 provinces away from my capital :)

Re: Standards - MA Game (sign-up)
 

The good news is that you all have the wrong map. I apparently have to delete the map I originally made in order to put up a file with the same name. The new map I made is indeed 216 provinces. I've yet to see if it carries the same good start / bad start location problem. Something easily fixed by adjusting start locations on llamabeasts version I assume. Thank you Calahan for double checking the map. The bad news is that the water provinces didn't come out exactly as I had hoped.

Try downloading the new map.

Also, I don't see a problem with you being Pythium chris. Now off to work, which I'm late for.

Re: Standards - MA Game (sign-up)
 

Thanks for the new map AoE. Just ran two quick tests and there doesn't appear to be as many unbalancing starts as the previous map.

Also, been having my first ever play around with Dominions in-built map editor, and it appears to be fairly straight-forward to use. So might have a bash at editing the map a bit (just be for my own amusement) to see if balancing it out is something I can actually do or not.

Re: Standards - MA Game (sign-up)
 

Actually there's even more unbalancing spots than in the previous, unfortunately. Got an 8-neighbour province start with 4 farmlands on my 2nd test start. And if the start locations aren't controlled at all, there's a spot with 9 neighbouring provinces too :X

Well, to be honest, I don't mind the unfair start locations, I just want the game started already :)

Re: Standards - MA Game (sign-up)
 

All

I've done an edited version of the 'Standards' map AoE provided (the one with 216 provinces) which I hope solves a lot of the balancing issues regarding start locations. I've also spaced out the start locations as best I can so that there's no bunching, or huge areas where nobody is anywhere near.

- The White X's indicate which provinces have the 'No Start' tag.
- The coloured groups of numbers indicate the possible choice of provinces where a nation may start. I've not opted for absolutely fixed start locations, as this would be the same as highlighting the capitals via VP's (which I'm not a fan of). It's always good to have a bit of mystery :-)
- With only one exception (marked with a *) each starting locations has between 4-5 bordering provinces. Where a province has more than 5 bordering provinces, one or more of them will be swamps or wastelands, which don't really add much value. Of course this doesn't apply to the water nation.
- I've connected the two groups of water provinces on the right hand side of the map (indicated with arrows). I think this is only fair to the lone water nation, as otherwise they would be limited to about 5 water provinces before having to fight it out on land, which would be a tough ask with such a small province base.

I've run about half a dozen test games, and the nations were spread out as intended each time. But I may have missed a province out with an intended 'No Start' tag, so if a fresh pair of eyes spots one, then please don't be silent :-)


Let me know what you all think. AoE is still the boss of this game though, so if he'd rather go with his map as is, or with any editing he's done, then that cool with me all round :-)

Have included a jpeg to highlight the changes, and if people like it, I will sort out either uploading the map myself, or sending it to AoE for him to upload.

(Edit) Ok, that is one poor quality attachment. All hail the new forum and its tiny file size limits :-) Will have to find another way to show off my fancy art work :-)

Re: Standards - MA Game (sign-up)
 

Actually, I can see what's going on in that picture just fine.


I was wondering though, is the .rgb file for this map compressed or something? It's all blurry..... Kind of makes my eyes feel funny, actually. :o

Re: Standards - MA Game (sign-up)
 

I'm actually quite pleased you went through all that work. I'll pm you my email address and gladly accept your copy of the map. As for the attachment, it really isn't that bad once you click on it.

I think there is more we can do for Ry'leh though. No matter where he starts I see he'll have to fight a land nation for a piece of soil. Or maybe I'm just reading the image file wrong. I'll test it out once I get your copy.

Agreed 46852, I'm anxious to get playing as well. Yet, if a an extra day of work on a map can squeeze out a fairer game and grant more enjoyment to all parties involved, then I say it is well worth the wait. Consider that a game usually goes on for months.

Edit: Considering the progress we're making it seems the map issue will be resolved well before all pretenders are sent in. My feeling at this point is that submissions to the llamaserver will be the bottle neck here.

Re: Standards - MA Game (sign-up)
 

Obviously I have a vested interest in the ocean starting spots, since I'm playing R'yleh, so take this for what you will, but this map seems even worse for the singleton water nation then the last one did.

Blargh.

Jazzepi

Re: Standards - MA Game (sign-up)
 

Sent you the zipped map file AoE, and included the 'high quality' image with it that the forum wouldn't let me display (although agree the thumbnail is (just about) viewable)

I had a good think about how to help R'yleh out while editing the map, but I struggled to come up with any more answers than I did to be honest.

I thought about leaving a free area of land (all land nations 3-4 provinces away) near a more-or-less fixed start location for them so that they could get a quick foothold on land. But the problem with that was that the nations on land became very squashed indeed, plus I couldn't see how that would stop a land nation just bullying R'yleh back into the sea. Or the reverse, and R'yleh became too powerful too quickly due to having control of all the water, and loads of land, while everyone else was slugging it out.

Thought about linking the water provinces on the right with the water provinces on the left (a kind of wraparound affect for the water provinces only) but that made things look a bit odd and very ugly. Plus again I thought it made R'yleh too powerful, as they'd get 20 provinces without a challenge while everyone else was earning theirs the hard way.

So not sure what else to suggest. R'yleh start with knowing that as the only water nation, they are safe from attack for the first few years, so that's one advantage they have over everyone else. Only other option I can see using the map editor tools is to give them provinces with extra magic sites. But again that could be giving them too much. Using sledgehammers to crack nuts and all that :-)

Re: Standards - MA Game (sign-up)
 

Don't worry Calahan, as soon as Jazzipi made his post I gave into the feeling I had about the map ever since I thought about the water situation. So, I locked myself in and made another map... again. I really didn't want to take your hard work and scrape it, but there really was no choice. Thank you so much for what you have done.

In the newest map, the water situation has improved to being at least as good as the first map, if hopefully not better. The problem is that I have so many other considerations and I'm at the mercy of a random number generator. I've already gone through it to eliminate a host of provinces as start locations. The details are as such:

-All starting locations on land have either 5 or 6 province on the border. No more, no less.
-All starting locations on land with 6 provinces have either a wasteland or swamp on its border.
-All starting locations on land with 5 provinces have no wastelands or swamps on their border.
-All starting location in the water have 4 to 5 water provinces on the border. (This excludes land provinces)
-There are no starting location that border the larger body of water.
-The larger body of water is 16 provinces large. Though still a bit slim.
-Choke points (as requested) are to a minimum.
-The remaining start locations are reasonable well distributed, though I have yet to zone it to ensure even spacing between nations. If it needs it, I'll do it.

My only issue is that I can't seem to stop the map generator from creating large clumps of mountains and large circular bodies of water that don't cut off huge sections of land or make a ton of choke points. Anyhow, enough ranting, here it is:

Link to standards_version 3.zip

Edit: Testing shows that some zoning will have to be done. Not a big deal as I only need to eliminate sites until I have 12 small clusters. I have a visual record of which sites are start locations, so it won't be too hard. I'm pretty sure it's a change you won't need to download as I can just make it on the map I'll upload to the llamaserver.

Re: Standards - MA Game (sign-up)
 

Ummm, if that was response to me on the blurry comment..... I didn't click on it, I was playing on it. In-game, it was very blurry. :p I just got the new version, let me check it and see..... ;)


Okay! I see what it is, it's just because the pixel count is so low, that zooming to my normal play "height", stretches and blurs the graphics. :p

Ummmm. First test on the map, my starting province is off the top edge of the map. O.o

Re: Standards - MA Game (sign-up)
 

Oh I see what's going on. You've inadvertently attached the old image file with the new .map file. I hope you didn't lose the other. :o And yes I confirmed this by deleting the files, and unpacking from the .rar again, still bad. 8(