Mod & Map Manual Feedback
 

UPDATE! The 3.20b patch for Linux included the wrong manuals. The correct ones have been attached to this thread and will be removed once the new patch is ready. These manuals are newer than the ones in the Windows patch, but not up to date on the upcoming mod commands.


Now that patch 3.20 is out, the old modding and mapedit PDF guides are gone, replaced by new versions. This thread is specifically for feedback on the new manuals. It is important that the people who use them give feedback so that if there are errors, omissions or unclear things in the manuals, they can be corrected.

The v3.18 Modding Manual is probably already familiar to most modders, since it is an upgraded version of the v3.17 UnOfficial Reorganized Modding Manual (UORMM). Feedback is once more welcome, because there have been some changes (some of the reordering for editorial reasons, for example), but the document should be free of most big booboos.

The v3.18 Mapmaking Manual is another story entirely. It is completely new, significantly expanded and totally reorganized. It contains a fair bit of original new text as well. More importantly, only a very few people have seen it before the patch came out. Therefore feedback on the Mapmaking Manual is essential for its continued improvement.

It should be noted that the latest draft of the Mapmaking Manual did not make it into the 3.20 patch. The v3.20 draft has had all the typos and spelling errors corrected out of it, so it is not necessary to report those, the most glaring one of which is the "manipulatiopn" typo in section 6.

I need your opinions on the new manuals. I want to know it all, what's good, what's bad and what's ugly. So let me have it.

Re: Mod & Map Manual Feedback
 

I thought I had demonstrated that you could create linked magic using #custommagic.

Here are 2 mages from my in-process mod:
#newmonster 2908
#copystats 1111
#spr1 "./daemons/Blue Lady1.tga"
#spr2 "./daemons/Blue Lady2.tga"
#clearmagic
#name "Blue Sorceress"
#descr "A pure sorecery enchantress."
#female
#hp 11
#mapmove 2
#ap 10
#mr 8
#mor 16
#str 10
#att 8
#def 8
#prec 14
#enc 2
#ethereal
#mountainsurvival
#researchbonus 5
#custommagic 14336 100
#magicboost 4 5
#magicboost 5 5
#magicboost 6 5
#magicskill 8 1
#gcost 390
#rcost 1
#holy
#poorleader
#okmagicleader
#expertundeadleader
#maxage 100
#startage 75
#awe 3
#supplybonus 10
#nametype 103
#end

#newmonster 2909
#copystats 1111
#spr1 "./daemons/Green Maam1.tga"
#spr2 "./daemons/Green Maam2.tga"
#clearmagic
#name "Green Sorceress"
#descr "A sorecery and elemental enchantress."
#hp 11
#mapmove 2
#ap 10
#mr 8
#mor 16
#str 10
#att 8
#def 8
#prec 14
#enc 2
#mountainsurvival
#researchbonus 5
#custommagic 14336 100
#magicboost 4 3
#magicboost 5 3
#magicboost 6 3
#magicskill 51 2
#magicskill 8 1
#custommagic 32768 66
#custommagic 32768 33
#gcost 390
#rcost 1
#holy
#poorleader
#okmagicleader
#expertundeadleader
#maxage 100
#startage 75
#awe 3
#supplybonus 10
#nametype 102
#end

Re: Mod & Map Manual Feedback
 

Excellent, I love the new manuals. My thanks to the people who helped create it :).

Re: Mod & Map Manual Feedback
 

Thanks, Foodstamp. :)

Edratman, yes, you did demonstrate that. As I said, unfortunately the latest 3.20 drafts did not make it to this patch, but will be added to the next one. The magic modding section for units is correct in the 3.20 draft and explains how to make linked custom randoms.

Re: Mod & Map Manual Feedback
 

Thank you.

Re: Mod & Map Manual Feedback
 

I'm sorry but I don't like the new manual. It is much harder to find commands now. I prefer the old version.

Re: Mod & Map Manual Feedback
 

I suppose you were so used to the old manual that you know where to find everything by heart? If your old manual got overwritten, I can send you the old one, but it won't have the new commands in it. I'm not going to keep updating the old document. The new format is here to stay.

But thank you for the feedback. It is important to know this sort of thing.

On second thought, it might not be a very great task to do an approximation of the old manual by just removing the internal organization from the advanced monster modding section and then organizing everything alphabetically. Such a version could be provided as an attachment on the forums and would be an unofficial one. I expect that it is the monster modding section which is causing you the most trouble, Amos. Is that correct?

Re: Mod & Map Manual Feedback
 

Amos, you have given me heart. You are the most prolific mod maker and if you still have to use the mod manual, that I will no longer feel so bad if I have to use it to look up most every thing I do.

Re: Mod & Map Manual Feedback
 

Thank you Edi. You are correct. There is no index of monster commands, so I have to go through the whole list every time I need to find one. Alphabetic arrangement was much easier to search through.

Edratman, I use the mod manual to copy/paste commands. That way I eliminate spelling errors. Which means I use the manual a lot.

Re: Mod & Map Manual Feedback
 

You can use the find function to find the commands, because this PDF is text-based, not image based. Even using partial matches it should be relatively easy. The reason each command is not indexed is that the table of contents would be far too unwieldy. Adding a second TOC to the end might be workable, but I don't know yet. The main links are active, so if you need resistances, check that. Some of the organization is based on how stuff is grouped in the Dom3 DB, but not all of it.

I'll look into this sometime next week.

Re: Mod & Map Manual Feedback
 

Nice idea. I'm going to start doing it your way.

Thanks

Re: Mod & Map Manual Feedback
 

My humble suggestion:

Start a wiki using your updated manuals as a basis. searchable, collaborative, and it would accrue lessons learned and relevant commentary as the forum continues. We modders are a helpful and cooperative lot after all.

Maybe Schrap would host????

Re: Mod & Map Manual Feedback
 

sorry to reply to my own post... but then we could even support "code examples" right in-text, like php.net and other code sites do!

Re: Mod & Map Manual Feedback
 

There's nothing to stop anyone from starting a Dom3 modding & mapmaking wiki so that example stuff could be added. A supplementary wiki or other document with examples from experienced modders would be a useful addition.

If you want to include stuff from the new modding or mapmaking manuals, ask Shrapnel for permission first. Using it as a basis for a wiki is not a decision I am allowed to make anymore since it has been made the official document. I also explicitly deny permission to use the UORMM as a basis unless permission is obtained from Shrapnel, since the UORMM was made into the current official manual and thus the same considerations apply.

Also, there is no way in hell I'm going to start working on any sort of wiki at all. I find them counterintuitive and a pain in the *** to use and managing one would be just like moderating another forum, thanks very much. Already have the Dom3 community here and stardestroyer.net where I'm a mod, so I'll pass.

Much easier for me to make an alphabetically organized unofficial mod manual for Amos and others like him, since it's the monster stuff that is by far the biggest section. Not going to touch the other sections and their organization.

Re: Mod & Map Manual Feedback
 

Tnx Edi.

Re: Mod & Map Manual Feedback
 

Maybe you could include in the next edition, in the section about magic site modding that there is limit of five entries among #gems,#monster,#gold,#res.

Re: Mod & Map Manual Feedback
 

I'll do that. Quite an oversight on my part, actually, forgetting that bit. Thanks for the reminder.

Re: Mod & Map Manual Feedback
 

Someone has lead me to believe that there is a command to set the design points cost of a pretender god, but I can't find it anywhere in the manual. Does it exist, or is someone just misremembering things? I'd really like to know how to do that.

Re: Mod & Map Manual Feedback
 

It is #gcost.

Re: Mod & Map Manual Feedback
 

Yep, #gcost is the correct command. It also says that in the #gcost command entry and always has, even in the old manual. Almost all text in the new version is copy-paste of the old and rearranged, though there are additions in many places.

Re: Mod & Map Manual Feedback
 

Oh! Okay. Can't believe I missed that.

Re: Mod & Map Manual Feedback
 

rdonj, no reason to feel bad about missing something. Happens to everyone. Happens to me alot.

In fact right now I've been through the manual 4 times looking for the command to make a weapon that can't be dropped. Logged on to alleviate the frustration.

Re: Mod & Map Manual Feedback
 

Do you mean an item? Cursed items are not doable yet. As for weapons, using the #bonus command will make that weapon not count toward ambidex penalties and it also won't be removed if you equip an item on a commander. No idea if you lose it with stuff like the Lost an Arm affliction, as that has not been tested.

Re: Mod & Map Manual Feedback
 

One thing I did notice (which is completely inconsequential) is that awe and animal awe get reversed when talking about what the bonus is. In case that comes off confusing I'll just copy/paste the section so you can see what I mean.

#awe <bonus>
Bonus can be a value of one or more. A bonus of
one means that people with a morale of 11 have
about 50% chance of daring to strike. A bonus of
10 means that you need a morale of 20 to get a
50% chance. -->Standard value is 1 (for Animal
Awe(+0) ).<--

Re: Mod & Map Manual Feedback
 

I'll check that out.

Re: Mod & Map Manual Feedback
 

An idle thought:

How about adding in large, bold print right after the title page of the mod manual something like:

"A lot of the modding manual instructions and commands are not intuitively obvious to first time modders. It is highly recommended that first time modders download one or more mods and review the .dm files for examples of actual applications of modding commands."

Re: Mod & Map Manual Feedback
 

Map Edit Manual could also use an example for newbies.

They are bit harder to find so I have attached an example of a map edit where I use most, if not all map edit commands. (You will probably want to shorten it.) You could insert the example as the last page of the map edit manual.

My first modding started with map mods and I was only able to accomplish that because Gandalf posted an example for someone.

Re: Mod & Map Manual Feedback
 

Good ideas. The mapmaking manual is still a less complete work than the modding manual, since it was far less substantial to begin with and there has been less time to work with it and more stuff to add. An advanced mapmaking section is somewhere in the planning stages, but not a reality yet. I expect that I'd need to add that and any other example codes as an appendix. Don't count on all of this appearing immediately, though.

Re: Mod & Map Manual Feedback
 

Okay, I have been doing some testing on the nametypes 141-150. Here are samples of each:

141 - Karpok, Ek Chua, Kerugaq, Sirmiq
142 - Madunta, Uistean, Eadbhard, Cuan
143 - Anastas, Orlaith, Barran, Loemfind
144 - Dreamsoarer, Running Cloud, Thunderer, Beast, Revelry, Man Eater
145 - Barbsong, Whisperleaf, Thistle
146 - Giorgy, Gleb, Sviatopolk, Kiryak
147 - Nadia, Elena, Faina, Tamara
148 - Gal, Ahia, Ethan, Yarden
149 - Ariel, Niqmepa, Rapha, Ulkan
150 - Dinah, Hephzibah, Asherah, Mahalia

I'm sure people with better cultural knowledge than me can identify several of them. They are all obviously quite different, and several are quite interesting. However, the real finds for me are 144, which I'd describe as being for animals, and 145, which is for plants (treemen etc). Both of them are actually very useful for me, and I think it would be worth including them in the manual.

If I had to make my own best interpretation, it would be something like:

141 - Enigma (non-European)
142 - Enigma (Celtic?)
143 - Enigma (Celtic?)
144 - Animal
145 - Plant
146 - Enigma (Russian?)
147 - Elegant Female
148 - Enigma
149 - Enigma
150 - Enigma (demonic?)

Also, I have a couple of errata for the manual. Under #selectnation it says first that the number can go up to 79, then suggests using numbers up to 93. Also, the nametypes go up to 150, not 149 as stated.

Hope that's helpful!

Re: Mod & Map Manual Feedback
 

I have this in my little txt files.

141 - Inuit
142 - Tirnanog Male
143 - Tirnanog Female
144 - Nature Beasts
145 - Plants
146 - Rus Male
147 - Rus Female
148 - Gath Male
149 - Rephaim
150 - Gath Female

Re: Mod & Map Manual Feedback
 

llamabeast, is that in the 3.18 modding manual? I know the 3.20 version which unfortunately didn't make it to the patch in time should have all nametypes listed. I need to check the nation numbers stuff when I get home.

Re: Mod & Map Manual Feedback
 

It could well be the 3.18 version, yes. Poo, sounds like I wasted my time then. Never mind.

Re: Mod & Map Manual Feedback
 

I checked both the 3.18 version (included in the 3.20 patch) and the 3.20 version that will be included in the next patch and all of the issues are ficed in there. I think you may have been reading the 3.17 UORMM version that had to be downloaded from the board (no longer available). That one was unofficial, and was used as a template for the official new version. The modding.pdf in your Dom3 docs folder will have all the correct info.

But don't feel bad about it. It's good to doublecheck things sometimes. :)

Re: Mod & Map Manual Feedback
 

It would be good if the official manuals could get a table of contents of just the sections there are in it in the front. That way one doesn't have to scroll through the pages and watch for the titles in the headline, like I do. I'd like to be able to instantly jump to monster modding, site modding etc.

Re: Mod & Map Manual Feedback
 

Hmm, there is supposed to be a TOC in both manuals. The TOC has links to main titles and the level 2 headings (subsections, such as Resistances), but not to the level 3 headings (individual commands). The TOC entries are hyperlinks inside the PDF. It has been this way since the 3.15 UORMM and that has not changed at all since my versions became official.

Re: Mod & Map Manual Feedback
 

Huh. Well, the things that are shipped with the patches in the doc/ directory don't have any kind of TOC for me. Download the Linux patch (it's just a ZIP with all the files in it) and see for yourself.

Re: Mod & Map Manual Feedback
 

Found the problem: The manuals in the Linux 3.20b patch are the old, obsolete manuals, not the new ones. So all the new commands are also missing.

:banghead

I'll attach the 3.20 PDFs to this thread once I get home from work. In the meanwhile, download the Amos version to see most of the new layout, that one only has the Advanced Monster Modding section in the old alphabetical format, the official version has it in subsections.

Re: Mod & Map Manual Feedback
 

Re: Mod & Map Manual Feedback
 

13.3.2 #startsite “site name” | site nbr
Adds a start site for this nation. Table 26 shows
some suitable start sites. This command can be
used up to 4 times for multiple start sites. Site
numbers are available in fan-made
documentation for Dominions 3.

--> I think this is incorrect, you can't use site numbers for startsites, just names.

Re: Mod & Map Manual Feedback
 

Thanks! I'll need to correct that for the next iteration.

Re: Mod & Map Manual Feedback
 

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showt...=39996&page=44

prepare for new commands :D

All hail JK

Re: Mod & Map Manual Feedback
 

Mod and map manuals have been updated and the errors noted so far corrected. The new manuals will be included in the next patch, whenever that will happen.

Re: Mod & Map Manual Feedback
 

hmmm tables 9, 10 and 11 where not in the correct order (references where correct though)

Re: Mod & Map Manual Feedback
 

Damn. Well, that's fixed now. At least I managed to develop a system for doing it quickly if I need to do similar alterations in the future. Thanks.

*off to send draft version to JK*

Re: Mod & Map Manual Feedback
 

you kept the references right I do hope?

Re: Mod & Map Manual Feedback
 

Ow and ask JK to release that patch ASAP plz.

Re: Mod & Map Manual Feedback
 

Of course. Wouldn't be much use otherwise, would it? It's fixing the references which is usually such a pain in the arse, but it's done.

As far as hurrying the patch, heed the words of a great and powerful wizard, paraphrased:

It will come in time. I know you're impatient, but there's no recourse but to wait.