Gliders or Paratroop transport?
 

Wich one is the best? The only difference i have found btween them is that gliders land and para transports infantry jumps from

Re: Gliders or Paratroop transport?
 

Good day,

I'm sure you will get varying opinions on this one. Airborne Ops are probably one the most difficult to pull off. Make up of these missions should be tailored to the type of mission, terrain, and what opposition can be expected.

Generally speaking Gliders need room to land and in a lower threat environment can be useful to put troops more or less exactly where you want them. As well they can carry heavy loads like AT Guns and Jeeps, plus if carrying troops they will be able to rally better as they should be more or less together.

However, they seem easier to shoot down as well. Also landed gliders telegraph your position more readily. I’m not sure how much the AI uses this but rest assured a human Commander won’t miss this.

Transports on the other hand would be more advised on heavier defended areas no matter the terrain. Be aware that this mode of insertion will leave you with a much more scattered force and rallying them will be more difficult.

Bottom line is Airborne Ops should only tried if you feel that the causalities are worth it. With Western Allies and Germans if the conditions are right I'd tend to lean towards a glider heavy force so I can have the advantage of command control and some heavier weapons. However, I'd rather have my Paras or FJ's riding along with my Panzers.:fire:

I have never tried Airborne Ops with the Russians.

I know this is not a cut and dried answer, however neither are Airborne Ops.http://www.militaryimages.net/forums...ilies/1032.gif

Bob out :D

Re: Gliders or Paratroop transport?
 

i've tried para insertion twice,both failed,badly:(

Re: Gliders or Paratroop transport?
 

My para insertions almost always fail, maybe because they're scattered all over the target area, my glide insertions are a bit more succesful, another question, do gliders take casualities on landing?

Re: Gliders or Paratroop transport?
 

I agree with what PanzerBob said, and think as a rule of thumb you are better off with gliders as long as you have decent landing areas close to your objectives; and you can bring some heavier equipment along with gliders.

I have used both in PBEM games. A company of paratroops dropped in the enemy rear can cause a lot of havoc and confusion for your opponent.

One time I successfully got gliders down behind enemy lines, but they were a bit too far away from their objective to be really effective.

I've had a bridge stolen from right under my nose, by one opponents successful glider landing.

But although I'd give gliders the edge, they have a greater chance of failure. I had a glider land in some woods once, and a whole platoon was lost, no survivors.

I think SP reflects real life: it depends on the terrain and what you are trying to accomplish.

ps. I think a rough landing can cause casualites - like with paratroops - but not certain. I had a glider take casualties when it landed. It did not crash land, however I think another glider crashed into it while landing, but neither caught fire.

Re: Gliders or Paratroop transport?
 

I played around and found out that gliders count as destroyed vehicles enven when they land OK, and i lost a mortar in a heavy landing, into a stone building :D gliders have the advantage of bringing equipment that is really iomportant, i landed some bazookas in the enemy's rear and struck their TDs, before my land forces could get to the objectives, the only enemy units were routed infantry and crews, oh, and when a plane/para transport/glider gets shot down is there a chance that its crew/cargo survives?

Re: Gliders or Paratroop transport?
 

transport's yes there's a chance of them getting out,as for glider's i don't know for sure but i think there are no servivores

Re: Gliders or Paratroop transport?
 

i think the gliders only have survivors on landings, being shot down seems to kill'em all

Re: Gliders or Paratroop transport?
 

I seem to recall having a transport place shot down once, and some of the paratroopers managed to get out before it hit the ground. But this was a long time ago, so could be wrong...

Re: Gliders or Paratroop transport?
 

Paras will attempt to escape from a shot down transport

Don

Re: Gliders or Paratroop transport?
 

Can't stand Transports.

I recently did a hotseat game,I bought some paras to give my opponent a nasty suprise,but my main force got routed, a para platoon was spread out over 20 hexes, just a disaster.I managed to kill the enemy arty, but I don't think my opponent even noticed :D

I've done way better with gliders,if I had went with gliders I could have brought a light tank to the field,but nooooooo.

I think you have to be an expert to plot an airbrne assault correctly.

Re: Gliders or Paratroop transport?
 

Hi
Ive had problems with the Gliders becoming destroyed vehicles, in previous versions of the game anyway. I once dropped Rumanian Glider troops just short of the objective but was unable to move the 47mm AT guns forward out of the landing zone to support the infantry as they were getting to much suppression from the wrecked gliders! Tanks then proceeded to eat my troops up.

Re: Gliders or Paratroop transport?
 

Good day,

Historically. Gliders that were shot down did lose all on board, and crash landings accounted for some numbers as well.

Besides being an expert at planning you also need a big horseshoe up the wazoo.:D

The few times a have put in an Airborne Assault, all suffered heavy causalities, none were able to move far from the LZ, however they did cause the enemy to move prime assets away from the ground assault and speed up the victory. However with causalities so high, they were marginal victories at best. Glider troops seemed to always fair better, but heavy equipment always seems to get whacked or an AT Gun would land but the jeep wouldn't make it. The one time a tried a night assault 150m visibilities, it was a complete failure. Most survivors only did so because they landed more than 1500m from their LZ's where no enemy was!

With all that they are still interesting to attempt all and all given the right situation I don't discount them.

Now FJ Airmobile, that is interesting to try, just remember to be in the weeds and don't forget The Ride of Valkyie!!!! MUUHAHAHA!!! http://home.arcor.de/engelhardt.pete...x-Fa_223-1.JPG

Bob out

Re: Gliders or Paratroop transport?
 

Sounds like people have had bad Paratroop experiences.

Perhaps I was lucky, but I put down a company of paratroops behind enemy lines and they had few - if any -casualties on landing; then proceded to cause mayhem and confusion.

The key seemed to be finding a good drop zone, and then moving them quickly into woods, cover or built-up areas where they can easily hold their own against the inevitable armoured response.

I think good visibilty may help you drop on target. But also aids the anti-aircraft guns. Try to approach the drop zone from a nearby map edge, so the AAA won't get much of an opportunity.

Re: Gliders or Paratroop transport?
 

Ok. Let's summ up:
1. You need a fairly unobstracted and safe landing zone near a meaningful location on the battlefield and a fairly safe route to it,
2. Must be timed correctly and
3. Must be lucky during the actual paradrop/glide landing.
which would be equivalent to:
1.The second in command of the opposing force decided to become a traitor and the flak crews joined him!
2. The operations/logistics guys actually completed all the planning and asset gathering in time!
3. The dice are loaded!
:eek:
Air Ops? No way!:nono:
I'll walk the battlefield first:fire: and then:yield:

Re: Gliders or Paratroop transport?
 

One thing I want to add:
When using transports you also have to remember that your soldiers are vulnerable while hanging from those stupid parachutes,so you lose either way. :D

Re: Gliders or Paratroop transport?
 

ahh, that's why my para units get whiped out when dropped near enemy, also why do gliders show as DESTROYED after a landing?even when they land ok?another question, can helico crew/cargo survive a crash?

Re: Gliders or Paratroop transport?
 

IIRC Helo lose all on board when shot down.

Bob out :D

Re: Gliders or Paratroop transport?
 

Do not forget that no Abn Regiment commander is going to borrow some ground pounder schmuck colonel a company or a platoon to support his smallish tactical offensive ;) If you want airborne op in PBEM, you should make it all airborne and then the battle conditions would have to be finely tuned (points for attacker/defender etc.).

Re: Gliders or Paratroop transport?
 

Good point about paras hanging in the air an extra turn to get shot at. Forgot about that.

I think the reason gliders show as destroyed after landing, is otherwise they could be redeployed, or cause a glitch if you tried to redeploy. Something like that.

Re: Gliders or Paratroop transport?
 

and what's IIRC?

Re: Gliders or Paratroop transport?
 

Internet Shorthand - "If I recall correctly"

Re: Gliders or Paratroop transport?
 

Gliders fly to the LZ then offload troops and are then marked as destroyed because they are no further use to the player. If they were left "live" then the AI would spend lots of time shooting them up if it got LOS to them as soft vehicle type targets.

In reality, the glider crews left the things and went to a central rally point and were eventually sent home. They are too valuable as trained pilots to use as infantry.

Another point to destroying them on landing - it stops silly players using the glider crews as "scouts". It also gives their VP to the opposite player, making the use of glider borne troops need a bit of thought.

The gliders advantage is that any troops landed in them are reasonably concentrated on landing whereas paratroops are usually spread all over the landscape like confetti. Gliders like about 500M of open flat space to land on - they do not like trees, orchards, buildings, slope hexes, marshland, rough ground or water landing hexes!. Good visibility reduces landing crashes, but this opens up the chance of AAA, and gliders are slow fliers...

Cheers
Andy

Re: Gliders or Paratroop transport?
 

Hi Andy
Any chance of removing the suppression the landed gliders give to their own troops?

Re: Gliders or Paratroop transport?
 

The gliders will give no suppression to the landed troops, as they aren't destroyed by enemy action, just marked as destroyed.

Any destruction would only count in the landing phase anyway, since wrecks have no suppressive effect beyond the destruction phase when all the troops are forming up, so are somewhat useless anyway?. You don't just land and go - see the glider landing at arnhem - but the forming up time for glider troops will be less than if you shotgunned paratroopers all over half a county. However either type of air landing troop if it falls under the guns of any formed enemy will be toast.

Cheers
Andy

Re: Gliders or Paratroop transport?
 

Hi Andy
Well I guess Im missing something then, In the test game attached unit D1 landed with 4 suppression points and after two turns sitting there now has 5
E0 had 4 now has 7
E3 had 5 now has 7
E4 had 5 now has 6
F0 had 4 now has 7
G0 had 4 now has 10
G1 had 4 now has 11
etc. etc.
They all landed cleanly without casualties and havnt moved I havnt done any rallying myself just relying on the autorally.
Most units are gradually increasing suppression I thought it must have been the wrecked gliders but if it isnt I'd be interested to know why suppression is increasing.
Ive also seen a "wrecked" glider with 2 suppression points shouldnt it have had 0?
Regards Chuck.

Re: Gliders or Paratroop transport?
 

Looks like I missed a little bit of code - friendly wrecks within 7 hexes do give a chance of 1 point of suppression per such wreck.

It's irrelevant what suppression any wreck has - as it may just be what it had on crashing etc. and not cleared. It is not going to be morale tested on it.

I'll look into the glider landing routine - will probably mark them as abandoned with nil crew, so it will only be marked destroyed if the enemy co-locate in the same hex, or at game end if the game is his win etc.

Cheers
Andy

Re: Gliders or Paratroop transport?
 

Gliders landing code changed - crew is reduced to 0 etc. as before, but they are marked as just STATUS_ABANDONED, not as STATUS_DESTROYED.

The suppression add for destroyed wreck within 7 hexes is now not applicable, unless the enemy remain in same hex as the trashed item and so flame it, as with any other abandoned item.

(Duplicated for MBT code as well)

Cheers
Andy

Re: Gliders or Paratroop transport?
 

As someone who has toyed around with airmobile assaults in WinSPMBT I can assure that this is no cake walk either. It has its own set of difficulties. Helicopters are extremely fragile and extremely responsive to enemy fire. A transport plane or glider isn't going to turn around in the face of enemy fire. A helicopter might, and it might just be carrying the exact units you need to break out from the LZ. You need to find a landing zone with a good covered approach...and barring that set up a walk of smoke or otherwise suppress any defenses that are on route. You'll note that in the early days of airmobile operations, at least for the US, laying thick smoke screens around the LZ was part of the general plan, to provide an immediate defense against enemies taking advantage of helicopters at their most vulnerable.

Re: Gliders or Paratroop transport?
 

When Gliders Crashlland do they disappear? I can't find them after the action turn, also flame hexes give your troops supression?

Re: Gliders or Paratroop transport?
 

Crashed gliders are wrecked - and will only disappear if they have the misfortune to land on deep water, when everyone carried will drown as well.

You may be confused by the fact that gliders are shown on the deployment phase and are then stripped off the map (with the loaded passengers) as they are off map assets. Load them in the deployment phase, and also plot your air drops on the pre game bombardment screen, or you will be subject to long delays if you try to call them in ad-hoc during the game. (You really should not be able to do that, or at least with planning delays in terms of days!, but allowing that lets players who forget to plot to get a chance to use their airborne assets but with a 12 or so turn penalty).

Flame hexes give suppression, and the occasional casualty to dismounts, but nowhere like the original SP series games. It used to be a standard SP1 "gamy" tactic to plonk some engineers with flame-throwers in an extended line where the panzers were coming and X-fire a wall of flame across their predicted path, leaving 3-4 shots of FT to close assault the enemy. Any tanks left alive in the flame hexes were badly suppressed, as were any tank riders. Flame-throwers are now less effective, and the flame hexes are a nuisance, rather than deadly.

Cheers
Andy

Re: Gliders or Paratroop transport?
 

Thanks for the advice

Re: Gliders or Paratroop transport?
 

Dont think gliders are suppose to disappear.I believe fire do cause supression(even cause casaulties) but only heavy fires like the ones caused by flame throwers and napalm.

Re: Gliders or Paratroop transport?
 

That is an excellent change and also more closely portraits the real-life practice.

Re: Gliders or Paratroop transport?
 

Agreed, Gliders showing as destroyed gets you into troubles, since you'll propably waste 3 turns or more until your units can get to their rally point