FTL propulsion in progress
 

Not a mod, but a map, compatible with all mods.

It works like this:
Ships at the perimeter of a system are far enough from gravity wells to enter hyperspace.
One MP to "warp" into or out of hyperspace.
Once in hyperspace, 1MP moves you 1 square on the galaxy map. This is aproximately 100 times the speed of light using one movement point.
Hyperspace systems have a Random movement ability of 20 Lightyears per month, so beware; slow ships can easily be lost.

-----------------------------

As a note, I've finished:
16/16 hyperspace systems
104/208 hyperspace intraconnections.
0/1320 hyper-to-normalspace interconnections(24 per system * 55 systems)

As such, I estimate that I am 8% done.

I expect this to take a total of 12 hours, at 30 seconds per warppoint.

May I have a show of hands for who would use this map? I need all the encouragement I can get, because creating warppoints with the map editor is dreadfully boring and the FPS games are calling http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif.

------------------
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Re: FTL propulsion in progress
 

not that it isnt a good idea, but after playing the map thru, its still the same map. It would be nice to be able to create these easily on the fly, which does not seem to practical.

maybe it could be dumbed down, instead of a connector on every edge, maybe you could setup the hyperspace systems on a checkerboard pattern and stick connectors on all 4 corners. that should help with the 10 warp point per system limit as well.

then each system might have one warp point into hyperspace, and not be connected to other systems. that way future maps could be made by simply laying out a 2x2 or 4x4 hyperspace grid, and making one warp point per system.

Re: FTL propulsion in progress
 

It's a nice idea, but for the amount of time involved, you'd be better off getting either writing some software to do it for you or getting Malfador to include a copy/paste function in the map editor.

Another way of doing it (if I have understood your method correctly) might be to create a huge grid of systems, and make the vast majority of them tracts of completely empty interstellar space. (maybe the odd asteroid field or storm). Then you connect each square (or every other square...) at the top of each system with the bottom of the system above it, left to right and so on. The top left corner of each system would link to the bottom right corner of the system in that direction... you get the idea.

Give the boundary warp points a different image (or none at all), and you can have "wormholes" (normal warp points) if you like. You'd still have to use the "warp" command for no apparent reason, but it could be a reasonable simulation, since it would effectively remove the concept of "chokepoints" from the game.

It would be good to take out the ancient race trait - it would take ages to find anyone or anything.


------------------
SE4 Code:
L GdY $ Fr- C- Sd T!+ Sf-- Tcp-- A% M>M+ MpD! RV Pw Fq+ Nd- Rp+ G-
/SE4 Code
Work out your code at http://www.sandman43.fsnet.co.uk/se4main.htm

[This message has been edited by dogscoff (edited 03 September 2001).]

Re: FTL propulsion in progress
 

Just for clarification of the post below, here's a diagram. I don't think this would be any quicker than S_J's method, but it's worth consideration.

Of course, if MM were to put copy/ paste into the map editor, we'd be laughing=-)

Re: FTL propulsion in progress
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Another way of doing it (if I have understood your method correctly) might be to create a huge grid of systems, and make the vast majority of them tracts of completely empty interstellar space. (maybe the odd asteroid field or storm). Then you connect each square (or every other square...) at the top of each system with the bottom of the system above it, left to right and so on. The top left corner of each system would link to the bottom right corner of the system in that direction... you get the idea.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Unfortunately, that method leaves you with a tiny, tiny galaxy.
In fact, you can only get a galaxy 16 systems horizontal by 16 systems vertical.
(You can't get any more due to the 256 system limit)
It may be suitable for one-on-one play...
Also, what you are essentially doing is putting warpoints between each of the squares in my method's hyperspace.

That empty-space method (16 x 16 map) would require ((16 * 16 * 16) - 4*16*5 + 4 = 3,780) exactly 3,780 warppoints, using the connection pattern I've already started.
The equation there is ((mapsize * 16 WP per system) - 4 sides * 16SystemsPerSide * 5 WP per side + 4 corners which were subtracted twice)

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>maybe it could be dumbed down, instead of a connector on every edge, maybe you could setup the hyperspace systems on a checkerboard pattern and stick connectors on all 4 corners. that should help with the 10 warp point per system limit as well.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
The problem with reducing the number of warppoints in hyperspace is when two nearby systems lie on the boudary between two hyperspace systems. If there were only 4-way connections in hyperspace, an unlucky system one map square from its neighbour could require as many as 12 extra movement points to reach.

I've settled on the three per side as a compromise between 4 per system and a warpoint on every edge (50 per system).
This way I get:
80% of systems have True distance scale in hyperspace
15% of systems have a potential 1MP stretch
5% of systems have a potential 2MP stretch

Even if you are indeed going to or coming from of of the stretch systems, there is about a 50/50 chance that your direction of travel will involve the stretch.

Besides that, hyperspace accounts for less than 20% of the work.
It is the normal space connections that eat up most of the warppoints.
24 per system, times 55 systems.
I currently plan to place them just like in hyperspace, but without the corner points. This leaves 12 in and 12 out of hyperspace.

Suggestions for lowering this count before I get started on them would be very useful.

-----------------------------

As a note, I've finished:
16/16 hyperspace systems
180/180 hyperspace intraconnections.
0/1320 hyper-to-normalspace interconnections(24 per system * 55 systems)

As such, I estimate that I am 13% done.

PS. If the map editor had a copy-paste function, I'd be 23% done right now.

[This message has been edited by suicide_junkie (edited 03 September 2001).]

Re: FTL propulsion in progress
 

I've finished:
16/16 hyperspace systems
182/180 hyperspace intraconnections.
72/1320 hyper-to-normalspace interconnections(24 per system * 55 systems)
As such, I estimate that I am 18% done.

And no, 182/180 is not a typo.
I've added an extra Hyper-&gt;Hyper connection to eliminate a travel delay for one of the systems I've connected already. (It was one of those 5% chance, 2MP delay systems. now there is no delay.

Re: FTL propulsion in progress
 

S.J.,

I am not sure I totally understand your idea. I looked at the bitmap. Do you have an example .map file posted somewhere that I could look at? That would help me understand it I think.

What about this as an idea to simulate FTL travel? Pick a sector in every system, and put all the warp points there. Sector 1,1, or 12,12.

Doesn't have to be a corner, as long as it's the same sector in every system. I like the center sector myself, except that doesn't match with the sci-fi canon about the star's gravity interfereing with FTL travel. Of course you could just say it's actually the opposite. That the star's gravity is neccessary for FTL travel. Of couse if you use the center, you have to do something about black hole systems. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/ima...ons/icon12.gif

This would be relativly quick and easy to creat maps. You could generate a map randomly and just edit the position and destination for every warp point. Takes a couple seconds for each one. You could make a large map in less than 20 minutes.

Does a pretty good job of sumiulating FTL travel because there is no in system travel, all the warp points are stacked up on top of each other. And each system you go through takes on MP, so farther systems take longer to get to.

Whatcha think?

Geoschmo

Re: FTL propulsion in progress
 

Here's an example of what I am talking about. I chose to put the warp points in the center, but as I said they could be anywhere in system, as long as they are in the same sector in every system. Actually that's not even neccessary, but it makes it a whole lot easier to setup. All that's required to make it work is all the warp points within each system be in the same sector.

Try playing a game using this map, and don't be ancient race. It's a little odd at first, but kind of cool once you get used to it. Once you have scouted around a bit you can really fly. Just click your ship and click move to and what system you want to go to. Don't try clicking each warp point at a time after you have scouted them and know where they go. You will drive yourself crazy.

This would really be a different way to play. You could "interdict" hyperspace travel through your systems by placing ships or mines on the warp point.

I may have underestimated the time to make the map though. This was a small map and it took me almost 20 minutes. I am sure it's still quite a bit faster than some of the suggestions I have heard for other types of FTL maps.

Geoschmo

[This message has been edited by geoschmo (edited 03 September 2001).]

[This message has been edited by geoschmo (edited 03 September 2001).]

Re: FTL propulsion in progress
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by geoschmo:
except that doesn't match with the sci-fi canon<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think thats a great idea, if not slightly off topic.

Name := Sci-Fi Canon
Description := Uses accepted principals of science fiction to systematicly dismantle non-canon elements of SEIV and eleminate them from the game.
Pic Num := 220
Tonnage Space Taken := 300
Tonnage Structure := 3000
Cost Minerals := 5000
Cost Organics := 5000
Cost Radioactives := 5000
Vehicle Type := Ship\Base
Supply Amount Used := 5
Restrictions := None
General Group := Weapons
Family := 6666
Roman Numeral := 1
Custom Group := 0
Number of Tech Req := 1
Tech Area Req 1 := Applied Science Fiction Lore
Tech Level Req 1 := 1
Number of Abilities := 0
Weapon Type := Direct Fire
Weapon Target := Ships\Planets\Ftr\Sat
Weapon Damage At Rng := 10000 10000 10000 10000 10000 10000 10000 10000 10000 10000 10000 10000 10000 10000 10000 10000 10000 10000 10000 10000
Weapon Damage Type := Skips Shields And Armor
Weapon Reload Rate := 1
Weapon Display Type := Beam
Weapon Display := 14
Weapon Modifier := 200
Weapon Sound := tractor.wav
Weapon Family := 666

ah ha. im so funny. no that wont be in the PCMod.


------------------
"...the green, sticky spawn of the stars"
(with apologies to H.P.L.)

Re: FTL propulsion in progress
 

I want to simulate SF FTL reasonably well.

Things that my method currently supports:
- FTL around the edge of a system to get to the far side.
- Multi-turn travel times entirely FTL.
- Go from any system to any other system directly, though it may take a while.
- FTL space cannot be blockaded, and completely protecting a system from FTL attacks in nearly impossible. (Random movement ability in hyperspace disrupts blockading fleets)
- Ships can be lost in hyperspace: with random movement of 2, a ship with 1MP is helpless and must wait to drift past a starsystem.

Putting all the normal-&gt;hyperspace connections on stars, say, would simplify the mapbuilding process immensely, but we would have blockaded FTL jumppoints, and no local FTL (around the edge of a system)

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Of couse if you use the center, you have to do something about black hole systems.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Not nessesarily. The black hole does not do damage when you fly over it, only if your ship ends its turn within 2 squares of the center. You could give orders to FTL in & out on the same turn when exploring.
Any ship with 4 or more MP could FTL in and then escape from a blackhole before it can do any damage.
A well designed BattleMoon or Baseship could survive the black hole's damage indefinitely, and FTL away at any time.

--------------------

I've now finished:
16/16 hyperspace systems
182/180 hyperspace intraconnections.
144/1320 hyper-to-normalspace interconnections (24 per system * 55 systems)
As such, I estimate that I am 22% done.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Here's an example of what I am talking about. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I don't know if its just me, but when I click that link, I don't get a file, just a new window of this thread page!

[This message has been edited by suicide_junkie (edited 03 September 2001).]

Re: FTL propulsion in progress
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by suicide_junkie:
- FTL around the edge of a system to get to the far side.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Nope, my idea doesn't do that. But with you could get around a system reasonably easy, but jumping through different systems.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>- Multi-turn travel times entirely FTL.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>mine "simulates" that, but not as well I am sure, since you would end your turn on a warp point in some system somewhere, instead of in a "Hyperspace system".

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>- Go from any system to any other system directly, though it may take a while.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Mine could do that, but it would require a whole lot more warp points. laf

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>- FTL space cannot be blockaded, and completely protecting a system from FTL attacks in nearly impossible. (Random movement ability in hyperspace disrupts blockading fleets)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>You got me there, although I kind of like the "interdiction" idea in a way.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>- Ships can be lost in hyperspace: with random movement of 2, a ship with 1MP is helpless and must wait to drift past a starsystem.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>This sounds cool. I can't wait to see it.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Of couse if you use the center, you have to do something about black hole systems.
Not nessesarily. The black hole does not do damage when you fly over it, only if your ship ends its turn within 2 squares of the center. You could give orders to FTL in & out on the same turn when exploring.
Any ship with 4 or more MP could FTL in and then escape from a blackhole before it can do any damage.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Good point. So I guess you would only lose your ships the first time you entered the black hole system. laf


BTW, I am having the same problem with my map link. I don't know if I did something wrong or what.


Geoschmo



[This message has been edited by geoschmo (edited 03 September 2001).]

Re: FTL propulsion in progress
 

Well, I'm up to:

16/16 hyperspace systems
184/180 hyperspace intraconnections.
288/1320 hyper-to-normalspace interconnections(24 per system * 55 systems)
As such, I estimate that I am 32% done.


One really cool thing that has appeared is a huge 3D effect. With all of the warplines going to the center of the map (hyperspace), it looks like there are a bunch of oddly shaped objects (outlined by the original warplines) stretching off into the distance.
WOW.

[This message has been edited by suicide_junkie (edited 03 September 2001).]

Re: FTL propulsion in progress
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by suicide_junkie:
One really cool thing that has appeared is a huge 3D effect. With all of the warplines going to the center of the map (hyperspace), it looks like there are a bunch of oddly shaped objects (outlined by the original warplines) stretching off into the distance.
WOW.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Actually I think that is just a hallucination caused by extreme boredom and staring too intently at the screen for a long time. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/ima...ons/icon12.gif

Geo

Re: FTL propulsion in progress
 

LOL.

---------

Dang, I've got to extend hyperspace from 4x4 to 5x4 systems. The map is wider than it looks at first!
At least that is only 50 more warppoints to do, and not more than that.

I've now finished:
16/20 hyperspace systems
180/230 hyperspace intraconnections.
384/1320 hyper-to-normalspace interconnections(24 per system * 55 systems)
I estimate that I am 37% done.


[This message has been edited by suicide_junkie (edited 04 September 2001).]

Re: FTL propulsion in progress
 

After some testing, I have found some important points about this map.

-The random movement in hyperspace does not break up fleets or units.
-The random movement tends to collect all items into one stack, and wobbles them around.
-AIs can not figure out how to use hyperspace.
-MoveTo orders cannot path through hyperspace.

So, this map will have to be played by Humans only, and you have to give "line-of-sight" orders to manouever through Hyperspace. If the ship can see your destination, they will go. If it involves a second system, they will not move through hyperspace. They will take normal space warppoints if they can.

Re: FTL propulsion in progress
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by suicide_junkie:
One really cool thing that has appeared is a huge 3D effect. With all of the warplines going to the center of the map (hyperspace), it looks like there are a bunch of oddly shaped objects (outlined by the original warplines) stretching off into the distance.
WOW.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Did any of you ever look at map10a which I posted in the scenario/ mod archive ? That is quite a multi-faceted construction if I do say so myself. It took five days to make. Although it seems to be oblong, you will note by measuring that the octagon's sides are almost equal. The borders of the setting are filled with small jewel clusters. At the next level up is the outer octagon. Then comes the inner octagon, a square, a circle, and a central focal point.......

Re: FTL propulsion in progress
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Puke:
Weapon Family := 666
ah ha. im so funny. no that wont be in the PCMod.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

In the air force ADOFWD all the developers were chain smokers. At the age of 17 I had never smoked but decided to teach them a lesson. So I bought a large box of White Owl stogies and proceeded to puff. By the time I had finished the box they all were willing to tolerate anything if I would just stop smoking. So I bought bags of lemon drops and crunched them instead. I smoked various cigars while in college but was eventually convinced to switch to pipes. Over the years I bought many pipes and currently smoke about 50 in rotation. Since 1990 I have smoked only one blend *** 669 ***. If you do not believe that then someone else can probably tell you it is true.....

Weapon Family := 669

Re: FTL propulsion in progress
 

S_J, what percntage are you at now?

------------------
SE4 Code:
L GdY $ Fr- C- Sd T!+ Sf-- Tcp-- A% M&gt;M+ MpD! RV Pw Fq+ Nd- Rp+ G-
/SE4 Code
Work out your code at http://www.sandman43.fsnet.co.uk/se4main.htm

Re: FTL propulsion in progress
 

I've now finished:
16/20 hyperspace systems
180/230 hyperspace intraconnections.
888/1320 hyper-to-normalspace interconnections(24 per system * 55 systems)
I estimate that I am 69% done.

[This message has been edited by suicide_junkie (edited 07 September 2001).]

[This message has been edited by suicide_junkie (edited 07 September 2001).]

Re: FTL propulsion in progress
 

I've now finished:
16/20 hyperspace systems
180/230 hyperspace intraconnections.
1056/1320 hyper-to-normalspace interconnections(24 per system * 55 systems)
I estimate that I am 80% done.

Re: FTL propulsion in progress
 

I've now finished:
21/21 hyperspace systems
238/238 hyperspace intraconnections.
1200/1320 hyper-to-normalspace interconnections(24 per system * 55 systems)
I estimate that I am 93% done.

I've also had to fix a starsytem, since two had the same name. I went through the Systemnames.txt, and pulled out three more duplications.