Bandar Log - you whipped me with what?!?
 

Bandar Log is a nation sorely in need of a guide. They have a truly awesome arsenal at their disposal, but unlike other superpowers it is not obvious how bad-*** their stuff is. I’d say Bandar Log is one of the most powerful nations for a good player, but one of the worst for a new or inexperienced player because of the finesse required to make this precision machine hum. Note, almost everything I lay out here is applicable to Kalaisia and Patala, though they add a few twists I won’t explore here.

Bandar’s recruitable troops are a variety of special forces. Generally they’re gonna struggle holding the line in a pitched fight, but applied correctly in the right applications they show a devastating range of abilities. Used as a blunt instrument they’ll be cut to pieces though, so…don’t do that. Fortunately their large variety of summons will fill the ranks if staying power is what you need. Bandar is a nation of summons, conjuration is going to be of critical research priority.

Markatas - these guys get no respect, but with a little bit of creativity they are top notch units. Size 1 with a good defense they require nothing but enough numbers to overwhelm elite units with medium or high encumbrance. Markatas are surprisingly good unsupported against even things like heavy cavalry. If your opponent has a water bless with no earth bless, heck, you generally don’t even really need much more than to throw monkeys at him. As with most of the monkey forces though you’re gonna have trouble with morale. H2 priests are hard to come by for Bandar, you’ll find its often a good idea to use they’re nice summonable mage/priests to spam some sermons of courage rather than the typical magery their paths would suggest. Note, a great way to significantly help your morale issues is to sprinkle in the (cheap) Apsara or (expensive) Gandharva who have a standard effect. A small number will do amazing things for your morale when you can’t come up with a h2 priest. Their awe will also do great things in some situations such as stopping tramplers from squishing all your monkeys.

But wait there’s more! By now I hope you’re starting to see how in certain situations Markatas can be greatly effective. Lets see how these monkeys look with some real support. Lets paint a picture: On one side super elite dual blessed sacreds, high armor, good defense and huge attack damage, flaming weapons and all the usualness. On the other: a whole bunch of markata PD….and a Yakshana who casts iron bane, then several strength of giants. The size one markatas overwhelm the defense with sheer numbers, the first hit completely destroys the armor and shield of the sacreds, the next markata hits the armorless sacred with a club for 12 damage, while the markatas not in the front row fling sticks and stones with two attacks dealing 6 damage and ignoring all defense - and the shield has just been destroyed! Every time those super flaming weapons kill a whole monkey (assuming they can hit the 14 defense little guys), while the very expensive knights of the chalice, or vans or whatever get steadily chewed up.

Remember, special forces. This sort of maneuver is not going to be a silver bullet, but in the right situation your opponent will be screaming “he beat the snot out of me with….MONKEY PD?!?” Other great things that you’ll want to consider to use with markatas in various situations are: curse of stones, numbness (ice pebble staff can be great if you invest in 3-4), poison/sleep cloud, etc. Basically anything which takes advantage of the fact that those expensive super soldiers are gonna have to take awhile to hack through endless waves of monkeys - remember, even if you die 5:1 you probably still come out ahead! Supplement your PD with extra Markatas, at these prices buy them by the dozen.

Next on the menu of undervalued primates, the Atavis. Again, no respect, but these guys have won me several wars. Lets start with the short bow variety. They’re cheaper than most short bow archers I can think of at 9 gold and 3 resources. For short bows generally the most important thing is to get as many bows as possible, so obviously the cheapest archers win. Next, they are stealthy! Holy crap that’s awesome. What’s the worst thing about archers? The fact that any reasonably good opponent is going to deploy effective archer counters as soon as you start showing masses of archers. Adding my previous few sentences together, just think about how many fights you’ve been in where an extra 100 archers which your opponent completely didn’t anticipate would have made a drastic difference. That’s under 1000 gold. How about when your opponent goes to break the siege on his capital expecting to engage (whatever the hell you’re doing) which just killed all his PD and instead meets (whatever the hell you’re doing) plus 100+ archers buffed with flaming arrows and wind guide?

Now, let me sidebar for a moment to mention that I really like a rainbow pretender for Bandar Log for reasons which will be fleshed out as this guide continues, but flaming arrows is one of those spells that it can be worthwhile to take special consideration of when designing your pretender. Fire plus either air (cloud trapeze) or astral (teleport) is a huge leg up for several different nations for those few pivotal fights.

Now, lets look at the mace Atavis. Nothing super special as far as infantry goes, but they do have the rather unique Sticks and Stones attack combined with stealth. As I briefly mentioned with the Markatas, the sticks and stones are buffed by strength of giants, and the Atavis have more base strength. With two attacks per turn, 30 ammo, and 11 damage each (with strength of giants), *plus* a shield (invaluable for engaging other archers) these guys are certainly worth considering over the shortbows against some enemies if you’ve got an earth mage but no fire (flaming arrows doesn’t effect sticks and stones). Remember, the best thing you’ve got going for you is the element of surprise, use your stealth!

Vanara - A bit of a bastard middle child, these are your medium infantry. Generally you’ll skip them, but they’re not terrible if you need that niche filled.

Bandar archers - longbows are nice, but keep in mind these guys are 20 gold and have a precision of 9. The scale mail guys back up their good armor and solid hitpoints with a mace, so they can make those flankers sorry they got to the archers. If you decide to invest in these expensive archers, consider trying to use an air mage (Kinnara are the obvious choice) with a wind guide to offset the low precision.

Bandar light warriors - oh yeah, these guys are great. If you’ve been following along at home you’ll note I like the sticks and stones. These guys follow that up with a great strength. Buffed with strength of giants these guys are flinging two rocks per turn dealing 16 damage with a range of 19 (short bows have a range of 25). With two attacks for 20 gold these guys are comparable to 10 gold archers, only they’re dealing 16 damage, and have a shield, 10 protection, and a mace.

So, what’s better than attacking twice per turn for 16 damage? How about using that earth mage who just buffed them to spam some destruction. Now you’re dealing 16 X 2 damage against guys with 0 protection, no shield, and ignoring their defense. Can you think of any situations that this might be effective? Goodbye almost any super elite units! The damage and amount of projectiles is so high that even high hitpoints and moderate natural armor won’t save you. E/N blessed Neifels or Palashankas will evaporate just as fast as W/F blessed Vans - faster than they can say “Oh SH…!”

Advanced tip: if you’re having trouble landing destruction due to clever battlefield placement tactics of your opponent, consider trying to leverage iron bane. This can require some maneuvering though as ranged weapons will not trigger the armor loss. Any melee hit will though, so look to combine it with things which are otherwise often of limited usefulness. A great one-two punch is to combine the iron bane with swarm or black hawks (who can be scripted to attack large creatures, or whatever). Your Rishi can teleport and cast swarm (or howl if it makes more sense), and even creeping doom works well (never thought you’d hear that, did you?)

Bandar warrior - Expensive heavy infantry. Generally not cost effective, but what’s cooler than pounding guys over the head with pissed off gorillas?

White ones - These guys are pretty solid holy units who are cheap. I’ve seen them used very effectively, but I generally find it hard to get a good bless for them given the other things Bandar needs. Still, with even a minor bless they’re cost effective troops, so go ahead an mix them in as a supplement to whatever else you’re fielding.

Elephants - they’re elephants, they give you a great way to get a solid early expansion without using your pretender. This frees you up to look at a rainbow.

Tiger riders - these guys are awesome with the right bless, but they’re *so* expensive, and again I’d rather have a rainbow than an expensive bless. Your early game you’ll be using elephants so won’t miss them, by the time the elephants become obsolete you’ll have better options.

Your commanders are fairly standard, you’ve got a stealthy commander and only an H1 priest. Your mages, you’ve got a small S1 (research, communion slave), medium S2, N1 (good SC/thug slayer), and a grande S3 N2 1W/E/S/N + 10% another like that. Being heavy on the astral component your recruit able mages are great for the end game but you’ll be leaning heavily on your summonable mages to carry you in the mid game. Fortunately, you’ve got some *great* ones. Rishis are very nice though, being cap only and reasonably priced you’ll want to start recruiting one every turn once you’re able.

Before I get into the summonable commanders I wanted to review your non-commander summons.

Ganas - cheap, ethereal undead which any death mage can summon. They’re quite cost effective blockers for your low morale and fairly fragile ape troops flinging rocks. If you’ve taken a rainbow pretender it’s easy to create a revenant and a skull staff and leave your pretender free for other things, D2 is all you‘ll really need for most of your death needs. You’ll want to look to mound kings to heard your undead.

Vetelas - These often overlooked guys are surprisingly resilient with their protection, hitpoints, and second ethereal life. They go down pretty fast to real undead counters or massed archery, but the nice thing is they’re sideline enough that they’ll seldom prompt your opponent to invest in counters which are ineffective against the rest of your troops.

Nagas - Your first real frontline heavy infantry. You’ll have a hard time summoning them at the point you’ve first researched them, but in a pinch your nice rainbow pretender can spend a couple turns giving you a solid core for your early forces. They’re amphibious, so you can move into the water early enough that some water indies are still available for pilfering. They’re also holy, so I’ll go ahead and talk about the bless you’ll be wanting.

Just because you’ve taken a rainbow pretender is no reason to neglect considering what impact your blessing will have. As previously mentioned you’ll want fire magic for flaming arrows, but so long as you’re headed there F4 will give your troops a welcome +2 attack. The minor regen from N4 and reinvig from E4 will both help greatly with many of the units you’ll be using. B4 gives a noticeable bump up in the damage output of your troops who often add a kick to their attack and gives you a way to easily drop some of the great blood summons you inherit from Lanka if you luck into some indie blood mages (or trade for blood slaves). Outside of that you’ll want a minimum of D2 to get you in to that path (more if you can afford it would be useful), water and astral paths are most useful just because you’ll be site searching and need those gems, leaving air as not particularly necessary, but a pretty cheap bonus since you’ll be site searching anyway. Make sure you’ve got either enough astral for teleport or enough air for cloud trapeze. You’ll be taking heat scales, and there’s no reason not to take sloth so it’s not too hard to get the points necessary to be awake and start site searching immediately - getting an early gem flow to power your summon machine is a huge advantage for Bandar.

So, considering the bless discussed here nagas are very nice units for the price and research level. Also, keep in mind they’ve got darkvision, so if you should happen to find yourself fighting in the dark against somebody who’s using strong undead counters that can be very valuable.

Apsaras - These guys are armorless and thus very vulnerable to many things, but they are cheap, have a good awe value plus defense and a standard effect, so there are definitely good places to use them.

Advanced tip - awe has a great synergy with fear. Apsaras main defense is their awe, so assuming you can field them against troops with no ranged weapons consider trying to lower the bad guy’s morale. You’ve got good options to spam panic, and it wouldn’t be the worst use of gems to equip a couple cheap thugs with fear helmets to lead the charge. If appropriate, consider using your B4 rainbow pretender to cast blood rain, the effectiveness of your awe will skyrocket while your standard effect will counteract the effect on your own troops.

Gandharva - Apsaras big, mean, older brother. These guys are certainly on the expensive side, but they are definitely one of my favorite infantries in the game. High hitpoints, high awe, high protection, multiple attacks, good magic resistance, small regen and reinvig (with the blessing discussed), high damage output, a shield and helm while being imminently buffable. With a little support there aren’t many troops these guys can’t chew through while taking few casualties. As long as you’re investing in these guys make sure not to leave the house underdressed, strength of giants, legions of steel and wooden warriors are a must, as your research ramps up look to celestial music (national quickness buff), weapons of sharpness, will of the fates, marble warriors/army of lead/gold, and mass regeneration to make these some damn scary guys.

Advance tip: Gandharvas are your go-to guys for troops. Part of the thesis for going with a rainbow pretender is that you can easily alchemize anything you’ve got into astral which is what you’ll be using to summon your best stuff. If chance should happen to cause your rainbow pretender to rack up a large fire income (or whatever), don’t be shy about changing those straight into pearls. Even at double price your astral summons are often going to be better than anything else you could spend those gems on.

I won’t go into much detail as there are so many of them and you’re unlikely to afford more than a handful, but as previously mentioned you’ve inherited some very nice blood summons from Lanka. Be vigilant for a lucky break into blood, or the opportunity to trade for some cheap slaves. It’s probably not worthwhile to try and bootstrap into blood with all your other good options, but there’s no reason you couldn’t if you wanted to put in the effort. Check out the good Lanka guides for a detailed discussion of your options here if you’re interested.

Now, on to your summonable mages. You’ve probably noticed that many of my tips revolve around strong earth magic, fortunately Bandar has a very powerful earth mage in the Yaksha. You’ll want a couple Yakshini (the female, water version) for water magery, forging clams and if you’re lucky with the randoms summoning nagas, but other than that you’ll want to spend every nature gem you can get your grubby little monkey paws on to summon Yaksha. Aside from laying down all the previously discussed earth battle magic these guys make awesome thugs. With awe, good hitpoints, a secondary attack and E/N/(sometimes W) magic they’ll clean up any unsupported PD easily with very little gear. Summoning earthpower and using their bless they’ll have enough reinvig generally to save you on those gems, the awe generally takes care of crowd control, the second attack is usually enough to get them through the killing they need done, and the minor regen plus iron skin is often enough to keep them ahead of the few hits that do land. Slap some winged boots on them (one of the better things you can spend your air gems on) and switch hit between soloing PD / small armies, and dropping in to surprise they guys expecting to face unsupported monkeys. Of course, a bit of extra gear certainly won’t hurt as well. The great thing about these guys is you use nature gems to summon them, and you don’t really have much else competing for your nature gems.

You’ve got three different flavors of naga mages, but in general you’ll want to use your water gems for other things. Naga troops in a pinch, frost brands for your Yaksha, or even better crank out clams as much as you can so you can get as many of your awesome astral summons as possible. Bandar Log is arguably the best clam spammer in the game, with good earth for hammers, good clam forgers and top notch astral summons to spend the pearls on.

First up for your astral commander summons is the Kinnara. He gives a welcome diversity into air magic and can site search and forge the winged boots for your Yaksha. He also makes a good thug himself and already flies. With his awe and mistform and minor regen (from the bless) he’ll also handily clean up most PD. A little air goes a long way for wind guides and arrow fends - both greatly beneficial to your monkey/ape troops. With a staff of elemental mastery (courtesy of your pretender) you can also look at mass flight which is very, very nice to combine with iron bane and markatas, or as a surprise with haste buffed elephants. The other option is to go up to Devatas for A3.

Next up, Siddha. These guys occupy an awkward niche. They’ve got 4 arms and the magic paths to buff themselves into real SCs, but have the crippling low astral magic which will bring magic duels out of the woodwork when you stick some good gear on them. Still, with a strategic mapmove of 10 on top of the ability to both cloud trapeze *and* teleport these guys are great to keep in reserve for special purpose surprises. With 4 arms and those paths its not hard at all to kit them out to kill a specific SC/thug (think 30+ defense, awe, mirror image, luck, body ethereal with whatever weapons seem appropriate) then drop them in, set to cast returning the turn after. They can also be used as more general purpose killing machines if you’re matched up against somebody with weak/no astral as you can leverage that mapmove of 10 and plenty of your own cheap and powerful astral mages to make it very difficult to catch him with a small handful of S1 mages.

Devata- Generally skip them for SC‘ing, anything you want to do a Siddha can do cheaper and better. They do get you into A3, or A4 with a staff which opens up fun things like fog warrior’ed markatas.

Rudra - I’m not going to talk about any other summons at this level, because once you can get these guys you don’t want to spend your gems on anything else. Ever. These guys are my absolute favorite SC chasis of all time. 4 arms, mistform, soul vortex, phoenix pyre, mirror image, these guys eat tartarians for lunch (think wielding two flambeauxs with boots of quickness). They fly in a storm so you can’t even stop them from eating whatever they want while you can screw up whatever your opponent was going to do (they can even wield a staff of storms *plus* a sword and shield if you‘re so inclined). Or, consider equipping 4 shields scripting attack, cast hand of death X4, or perhaps attack and flame eruption X4, maybe use a crystal shield, bag of winds and winged helmet and drop some shimmering fields, they‘re naturally shock and fire immune so follow that storm up with wrathful skies and/or firestorm, or pile rigormortis on top of heat from hell and let your soul vortex keep you powered, drop a couple Rudras in to squish even big armies... I’ve wished for Rudras before rather than Seraphs because they’re straight up better in several situations. They’re non-unique so you can get as many as you can afford, they cost pearls so you can alchemize whatever is handy, and they’re a bargain at 55 pearls (compare to other angel type summons!). If by this point you’ve stockpiled a decent number of clams you’re gonna be very, very hard to stop.

Now, much has been made of the monkey PD, and indeed it won’t be able to stop much designed against it, but its actually not that terrible. All the missile weapons do a good job chasing off barbarians, and as I mentioned before markatas do just fine against knights/heavy cavalry. The biggest problem is your morale, so definitely push your dominion (that makes a huge difference), and consider some cheap support sprinkled around if you’re raided (Apsaras are cheap enough to be sprinkled around if you can’t line any H2 priests up, and of course mage support does wonders to any PD).

Of course the best monkey PD is research. With mindhunts, teleporting thugs and mages, earth attacks, stealthy flaming arrows, and ubiquitous astral mages (one guy spamming paralyze from the back row will discourage plenty of thugs intent on monkey squishing, and teleporting in a Rishi with penetration boosters to spam charm will make most anybody think twice about raiding wantonly) you’ve got no excuse for complaining that your PD alone won’t stop the bad guys.

Re: Bandar Log - you whipped me with what?!?
 

Well, I firmly believe that monkeys are very powerful in the lategame if left untouhed early on but with the pretender you suggest they will have very hard times to defend from properly launched attack and that is a pity fact. Yes, they have many powers and excellent summons but very many different things (territory and gems being the most obvious) are required to make all that work well. Still, I'm agree that they are playable and, if lucky enough, may even become unstoppable in the late game.
But they are very, very luck dependent. I don't mean luck scale, I mean lucky positions, neighbours, sites etc. Especially I don't like being very luck dependent but may be one day I'll try...

Re: Bandar Log - you whipped me with what?!?
 

could you conclude with your advice for pretender build? Not just the this is good, that is good etc (with all respect) but

this magic
these scales
this dominion score
awake/sleeping/imprisoned

It's just because when I play a nation, I usually have plenty of time to read the guide about troops in the MONTHS I'm playing the game.

But when starting a game (pretender submission) I usually have a limited amount of days. So your best pretender suggestion will be a better starting point to test my game. (not saying I'll copy it (I don't like monkeys so I'm not likely to play Bander in the near future) but it would be a good start point)

Re: Bandar Log - you whipped me with what?!?
 

Few pts of disagrement and other notes:

1) I think BL makes for a solid bless nation. White ones are recruitable in a fort with a temple, which is a big boost. You can crank out 20+ off these guys a turn. Gandharvas are the key BL troops and are blessable (as are your combat/thug mages...). Plus Celestial music gives them quickness for free. So in the middle stages you can have some double or even triple blessed troops.

2) I'm not the biggest fan of fire for BL on the pretender. If you're trying to rely on a rainbow mage to cast flaming arrows for you in combat, that's a losing proposition to me. I think a earth bless is key for reinv of your quickened gandhas and mages. I can understand a rainbow to get the death/blood summons going but I think it's too hard to focus on fire when there are better options. Any combo of death, astral, earth are good for a BL pretender. The Great Enchantress is arguably the preferred chasis due to the free astral gem, the lifeblood of BL. Otoh, a stealth mage could make the atavi work.

3) I don't think BL has to worry too much about an early game rush. Elephants are a great equalizer early on. So BL can turtle a bit and wait for its conjurations to come on line. So I usually have an asleep pretender or imprisoned if I'm going for a bless/max scales.

4) I'm not the biggest atavi fan. Your giant strength plus sticks and stones only works on defense and thus negates their stealth. They can't really stealth raid by themselves since moderate PD will obliterate them (of course this changes when the kinnara comes online and can fly to the battle and jump over a front line). Maybe you can decide your campaign around a fire/ stealth pretender that accompanies that atavi but that's a bit dicey.

5) BL are among the kings of communion spells. Every mage is astral with cheap slaves available. Control and other nasty spells are in the same tree as Celestial music and an mid-game + army should have rishis ready to hit bad units with control, soul slay and the other communed thau combat spells.

6) I love taking magic when designing my BL pretender. Your MR already sucks for most of your troops so you're already hurting from any spells against you. OTOH, you're gonna be throwing around controls, enslaves, mind hunts, soul slays and you need high research so I think it's worth the 40+ for each pt.

7) Not sure how viable The markata strategy is in multiplayer. The enchantment spells are way down the list of BL research priorities. Obviously, you need to take conjuration first otherwise you'll never get the earth mage to cast destruction/str etc. Then I'd rather go for Thau/evok both for offensive spells and site searches. Then maybe conj/alteration and enchantment is way down the list. Takes a while to boost up the markata forces to be good otherwise you can see a bunch of them flailing away at heavily armored troops.

8) Agree with you on the scales especialy with sloth. I think gold is nice too. BL basically only builds fortified cities so it's pricey to build a new mage/white one producing lair. I like the order/growth for those reasons. The supply aspect of growth isn't really needed but the income boost is nice and there's no reason to ever take productivity.

Key to BL is to survive till your Ganda's come online. Asparas should only be used if you're attacked and in dire straight before you've hit conj 5...or you're facing someone with no javelins, slings or arrows.

Edit: BL takes a while to windup. Unless you have an awake SC you probably won't be attacking on turn 2 b/c your starting forces stink and you'll need some elephants to carry you through. So you'll be behind the power curve for a while but then will catc up like a flywheel.

Re: Bandar Log - you whipped me with what?!?
 

I'm playing Patala in MP now and I find your guide useful to some extent for Patala as well.

Very nice guide and I agree with most of it.

Thanks.

Re: Bandar Log - you whipped me with what?!?
 

I've always been a big monkey player and fan. I think it was the versatility of the summons that drew me to them first. Never considered the midget monkey horde tactic, but it is now on the agenda.

First class guide.

Re: Bandar Log - you whipped me with what?!?
 

actually, I have a guide about 3/4 done on bandar log. I may finish it tonight and release it. and you are absolutely right about their utter bad-***-ness. They are like Kailasa without the weaknesses. Rather than have to play to the weaknesses of Kailasa, you can play to all their strengths with Bandar Log.

If you ever get to play with kitted out Siddhas, you will understand just how absolutely bad-*** this nation is. Intrinsic teleport, no gems no lab required. four arms. high natural MR. No initial weaknesses, so pretender creation can be geared to making use of all the mid and late game potential. People see monkeys and think "damn they suck". They don't look at their Celestial potential. And they just ooze astral. And their national astral summons stand in for whatever you might ever want death magic for. So its like with this nation, you get all the benefits of astral and death in one path.

So much hidden power in this nation. And so many options.

Re: Bandar Log - you whipped me with what?!?
 

I didn't get it. Why don't Siddhas need lab for teleporting?
Did you mean mapmove 10?

Re: Bandar Log - you whipped me with what?!?
 

Is this a tutorial? Looks more like a guide.

Re: Bandar Log - you whipped me with what?!?
 

Yes, got me puzzled as well. I even double check to see I haven't missed an intrinsic teleport ability (which would have been very cool btw).

Re: Bandar Log - you whipped me with what?!?
 

Obviously he just means flying and mapmove 10.

Re: Bandar Log - you whipped me with what?!?
 

it is referred to as "teleporting" in the description text as well, IIRC, a little misleading

Re: Bandar Log - you whipped me with what?!?
 

It should be Spherewalking or Planeshifting or something.

Re: Bandar Log - you whipped me with what?!?
 

Sweet theory.

Tell me when somebody manages to actually become 'unstoppable' with Bandar Log.

Re: Bandar Log - you whipped me with what?!?
 

Well, is there anyone "unstoppable" with any nation out there? :)

Re: Bandar Log - you whipped me with what?!?
 

Hinnom :)

Re: Bandar Log - you whipped me with what?!?
 

So back to the tutorial ...
i would be very interested in a scales recommendation what would fit for the apes ?
Sloth (-3 ?) was an easy decision for me ... also magic +1 for the 1s mages.
But what about order/turmoil and luck ?
So far i went for turmoil 3 and luck 3 because you need lot's of gems and no money for your summons ... but the early game is really hard with these scales.

Re: Bandar Log - you whipped me with what?!?
 

"But what about order/turmoil and luck ?
So far i went for turmoil 3 and luck 3 because you need lot's of gems and no money for your summons ... but the early game is really hard with these scales."

The problem with that selection is that it's a huge hit to your income. You're losing 27% to gold off the top since you maxed out sloth. Furthermore, BL needs to heat 2 otherwise they lose another 5%+ of income. So you're probably losing at least a third of your income per province. Income that small means that your expansion is going to be pretty slow b/c it will take a long time to get up to 1200 gold to build your second fort unless the luck scale income jackpot hits. Throw in the traditional slow BL start and you're gonna be way behind the power curve.

For my scales I like sloth, growth for income, plus magic, heat 3 and then my order/luck are dependent on what pretender I build.

Re: Bandar Log - you whipped me with what?!?
 

One of the many things I like about Baalz guides is they get people interested in playing nations that otherwise are not too popular.

As for theory, what else can a guide be? Obviously some of the tactics mentioned won't work in 100% of the situations but I enjoy the insights into game rules or spell combinations that I had not thought of.

Nice job.

Re: Bandar Log - you whipped me with what?!?
 

Slow start for Bandar Log?
Bandar log is the nation with i am able to expand the fastest of all. With Bandar i was able to get around 30 provinces after 1 year, and i think this is even faster that what you get with nations like helheim.

How to Do it.

I used s9w9 bless and white ones for expansion.

With 9 whiteones 1 bandar longbowman and a indy priest you have an expansion force that can take most indys without losses.

just put them as far in the back as you can and set the white ones on hold & attack, and the priest on (bless)(bless)(bless)stay behind troops. The archer is used so that the priest stays behind and does not get killed by enemy archers.

You can recruit one of therse partys per turn for only (50 + 23 * 9 + 20) = 277 gold and you should be able to get 160 ressources in your capital even when you took sloth.

Re: Bandar Log - you whipped me with what?!?
 

Any nation with decent recruitable everywhere sacreds will be able to expand really fast if it takes a double-bless. The question was how to expand effectively without super bless.
Btw, tigers even with minor bless are at least no worse for expansion than elephants and their upkeep won't ruin your day. I'm not a bandar player but I agree with Kuritza that it'll be very hard to bring this theory from paper to real world. Many reasons for that..
One option that seems rather viable is careful diversifying into blood. Any nation can go for it but while any other nation needs 50 slaves to get a B1 hunter, monkeys need 50 slaves to get a B3 Dakini who is much better than just a hunter. I believe that BL can be quite powerful combining awake SC Deva pretender with most of what Baalz wrote. But without it you'll need lots of luck to do well with monkeys.

Re: Bandar Log - you whipped me with what?!?
 

Well, I don't think Bandar Log is particularly vulnerable to an early attack. As Hoo points out elephants go a long way towards bringing Bandar Log into the 'Hmmm, is there an easier target?' category for early rushes, and when you throw in all the astral mages - ethereal elephants backed up by paralyze will put a good amount of hurt on most things that might rush you. Certainly if you're talking worse case scenario from a first class rusher, then yeah Bandar Log along with just about anybody is gonna have some trouble, and an awake combat pretender isn't gonna really help too much. Heck, in other contexts I've had to argue my guide thesis against potential elephant rushes and there's no reason at all that Bandar Log can't pull off a first class elephant rush, though I don't really focus on that in this guide because it's not really my style. Regardless of if you plan on rushing, anybody who can't turn elephants into a very brisk expansion against indies needs to practice a bit more with them.

To those of you very skeptical about Bandar Log's effectiveness, I ask you to look again at my thesis. The core of it is that Bandar Log is difficult to play, and it's not surprising that they often don't fare well. They have the tools to be a first rate power early, middle, and late game but it's not as obvious how to leverage them as, say, triple blessing some good sacreds and smashing the crap out of anything that shows up. I firmly don't believe you have to be lucky to do well with Bandar Log, though of course any nation is at the mercy of their neighbors ganging up on them or finding some high population indies to conquer.

Now, as to the questions about taking a rainbow pretender, I think most people discount the tactical advantage that an awake rainbow pretender gives you in an early rush situation. Fighting back an early rush is generally the game of trying to stall the aggressor long enough for you to research up to a critical spell or two. With an awake rainbow pretender researching you'll get more research done in the first few turns than you'd otherwise be able to do in the first year. Being able to meet an early rush (which by nature must be done by a small force) with mind burns, teleports and paralyzes can certainly be at least as effective as a poorly equipped combat pretender. Additionally, the rainbow pretender obviously gives you access to spells which your national mages can't cast, so you gain access to whatever the best low level spell in the game is to counter whatever is giving you pain. Having access to that one perfect spell is often the most effective thing you could possibly do. It's a bit disingenuous to say using your pretender to cast flaming arrows is a losing proposition, think about it this way: how many pivotal battles changed from a high casualty loss into a overwhelming victory does it take to make those design points worth it? My opinion is that number is one. This is not a tactic that you're going to leverage on your raiders, it's something you're gonna use in a "break this glass in case of emergency" type of situation. I have personally used it - with Kalaisian stealthy Atavis to surprise an opponent trying to break the siege on his capital and I fell in love with its potential. In any game there will be a few pivotal battles which you spend the rest of the time maneuvering yourself into a good position for, having a rainbow pretender means you can always have the spell that will make a difference - whether that's flaming arrows or darkness or wrathful skies. You can go ahead and consider it a losing proposition, I'll take the overwhelming victories that pivotal spells bring me in pivotal battles. In addition, a rainbow pretender will get you lots of gems - the lifeblood of Bandar. Many different types of summons use different gem types, and as I point out you can always alchemize into astral so every gem is very useful. I know plenty of people will take an awake combat pretender under any circumstances and disagree with my opinion on this, but I often take rainbows or imprisoned pretenders and do well enough.

In response to the comments which are essentially "this would never work in practice", everything I list here I've used effectively - at bare minimum against the AI and mostly against people in MP games. I've defeated many people as Kalasia and Bandar Log (haven't played Patala in MP yet), and am set to win a MP game with Bandar that I'm currently in. Certainly a good player might counter any tactic, but everything here is viable in a MP game if deployed in the right situation. Nothing is unstoppable, but nobody engaging a properly played Bandar Log could describe them as anything other than powerful.

I disagree that Asparas should be avoided, they are perfect for exactly what I suggested - shoring up Markatas. If you're fighting forces with no ranged weapons (or if you lay down arrow fend) their awe + high defense gives them a surprising survivability (particularly if you add in something with a fear effect for support) for their cost while their standard effect removes the real weakness of the monkeys. Hint: troops with no range or using arrow fend is exactly when you want to be deploying your markatas anyway. If you're using destruction/iron bane already their kick is plenty effective - you can certainly use them by themselves with a bit of good mage support. True, gandaharvas can do the same thing better, but you can't really complain that Bandar has a hard time coming up with the gems they need, then refuse to use anything but the top shelf summons. Everything has an opportunity cost, once you spend more than "good enough" you're giving up more than you should in some other vector.

As to specific pretenders and scales, I try to avoid suggesting a specific build in my guides if possible, and leave as much up to your preference as possible while meeting the requirements for the strategies I suggest. Within what I suggest here you could go with the minimal paths I suggest and still get excellent scales (with sloth and heat), but any extra magic you take will be useful and you can go with straight 4's in every path by taking weak-but-not-crippling scales (you don't need a strong dominion score). Order is of course nice, magic 1 is usually a good idea for any nation, I generally lean towards death scales when none of your mages are old and you're unlikely to run into supply issues (lots of nature mages). My own preference is for the enchantress for the extra pearls, but you can't really go wrong with any of the rainbow chasises, so pick whichever one most appeals to you. You could certainly even go with something like a ghost king or master lich if the human pretenders don't appeal to you, though remember....opportunity costs.

Thanks for pointing out the Dakini Ano, I ment to mention them and forgot. Bandar Log and MA Mictlan are the only two non blood nations who can summon cost effective blood hunters. *particularly* if you should happen to find a blood magic bonus site while site searching with your pretender. Also, searching with a good rainbow mage obviously maximizes your opportunity of finding an indy mage who can bloodhunt.

Re: Bandar Log - you whipped me with what?!?
 

The Siddha mapmove 10 is IIRC like the mapmove 10 some horrors get - it can move multiple underwater provinces if it has water breathing, for instance. It's sort of like a range-10 teleport spell in behaviour (apart from the bit where it happens in the movement phase instead of the magic phase).

PS: Baalz, can I link from my Lanka guide to this one? You explain what to do with monkey troops better than I can.

Re: Bandar Log - you whipped me with what?!?
 

Doh, I'm completely wrong on Asparas and apologize. Dang. Sorry about that. at least I got I knew there was a 3 multiple in there.

Good points on the rainbow pretenders. I think earth 4 is still pretty key b/c the Gandhas rack up a lot of fatigue attacking twice. I've made an Enchantress rainbow as well but not in a real cutthroat MP game and had some success. I wish the BL had access to the archdruid which would be perfect for a stealth leader for the atavis plus nature gems. I think he'd be a no-brainer, but alas it's not to be.

3 other tidbits:

1) BL has the best scout in the game I believe (markata +50 stealth, 20 gold). I think BL probably has the best scouting capabilities for anyone in the game (easy access to astral projection/stone sphere too). So you should be able to identify weak pts for attack/research.
2) BL does pretty well against SCs at a pretty early age due to the easy curse/soul slay/horror mark. Lot of these spells dovetail nicely with the research to get celestial music.
3) While most discussion has been on conjurations and markatas, BL can opt for an alteration heavy start with good success.

Re: Bandar Log - you whipped me with what?!?
 

Well, with 1 Sloth you're starting with 68 resources, at 2 Sloth you start with 56 resources, and at 3 Sloth you start with a whopping 44 resources.

Let me know when you hit 160. :(

Re: Bandar Log - you whipped me with what?!?
 

Apsaras are 3 for 3 gems, so 1 gem a piece.

Re: Bandar Log - you whipped me with what?!?
 

After you have enough adjacent provinces to the capital

Re: Bandar Log - you whipped me with what?!?
 

Asparas are 3 for 3, Gandhavas are 6 for 18...so they're 3 times as expensive. Quite a difference, particularly as Asparas are generally used in conjunction with other troops, while gandharvas are a big whackin stick nobody else can keep up with so you need to have critical mass of them. Sticking 9 Asparas in to give your markatas a spine is almost an order of magnitude cheaper than summoning 18 gandharvas to smash straight into your opponent's face.

Re: Bandar Log - you whipped me with what?!?
 

Yes, of course.

Re: Bandar Log - you whipped me with what?!?
 

Hey I'm just saying. I'm in a game right now without Sloth at all, and with all 5 adjacent territories, my cap gets a whopping 126 resources. I'm just so glad I'm not playing a nation that is dependent on capital only troops in any way.

Sloth kind of complicates your start when you are using elephants, more so than other strategies. Even when you hit 2 Sloth, you can only get 2 elephants out. You can have 5 ready to go on turn 3, but waiting until turn 3 is painful.

I was having a lot of fun with Bandar Log doing the W9/S9 bless (cheapest double bless they can get), but I expanded with the tigers, as 5 blessed tigers could take almost any indies without a single loss. But, I have become convinced that W9 isn't really the trick for these guys in the mid-late game. I do still think that it's a good idea to look long term at the White Ones as being worthy of a pretty good bless though. The jury is still out. :P And obviously if I, or someone else develops an overarching strategy for BL that is competitive with Baalz' build, it doesn't invalidate any of that, it's all down to playstyle. ;)

Re: Bandar Log - you whipped me with what?!?
 

Oh yeah, as I mentioned I like the white ones and I've seen them used very effectively. I guess in general I try to avoid trying to do something that somebody else does better, and while white ones are fairly good I don't think they compare well to the real top notch sacreds. Opportunity costs, and a real good blessing is expensive. I wouldn't argue with anybody who would base a strategy around them though.

Re: Bandar Log - you whipped me with what?!?
 

I would never ever go overboard with sloth no matter the nation. When people say that regular troops are worthless they are probably playing with sloth 3 and thus never getting enough of them.
I would recommend sloth 1, maybe 2 at the most, for BA.

Re: Bandar Log - you whipped me with what?!?
 

Baalz
I didn't really say I don't believe in what you described. All this is quite possile but you really need a lot of luck to win. Luck to find enough nature sites to summon Yakshas/Yakshinis (nature games are, IMO, one of the most valuaable and rather rare in addition to that), luck to have enough astral income or enough water to clam. Gems are the most obvious luck aspect but there're many others. Of course every nation needs luck, but the build you described seem more luck dependent than skill dependent to me and I really don't like being dependent on luck. It's just an opinion, nothing else. Also, I can't say for sure that my suggestions or thoughts are more viable as I didn't try them in the real game, I just think that relying on blood from the very beginning and planning your strategy around this, aiming for Dakinis as main thugs and using Conjuration summons as a support for them is much more reliable because with blood you only depend on magic site percent value, not luck in having stable gem income.

Re: Bandar Log - you whipped me with what?!?
 

Isn't W9 a bit of a waste, because you get it with the national BF enchantment?

Re: Bandar Log - you whipped me with what?!?
 

W9 bless is a waste with BL, and i find even a weak water bless arguable. On the face it looks good, because it buffs already high-ish defense scores. However I think that an E9 bless is more valuable for BL, and mixing W and E blesses is a little ineffecient becuase it is mixing two types of damage prevention. If you ever prevent damage from the extra defense, than the extra prot is just dead points. It is most efficient to just use the always useful extra prot.

Apsaras are MUCH less valuable for BL than for Kailasa, because BL should not take an Air bless since they don't need it. For Kailasa Apsaras are a backbone unit, even when Gandharvasa are available; simply because they are so cheap, very defense oriented, and provide another body for Celestial Music. Now, if you opt for the E9 bless (which I highly recommend), then that bless is just dead points on the Apsaras, even if you have Arrow Fend.

BL can focus totally on blesses that optimize the performance of Gandharvas, Siddhas, Rudras, and all mages. E9 for starters. S9 is a good choice, so is weak N. I prefer to avoid offensive blesses, because the sacreds are already so offense oriented. It is good to invest points in making them more robust. The above units are BL's most powerful, and are optimized with E9 blesses. Further, these units allow for the most efficient research strategies... I explain why in the next paragraph.

A W8 bless IS an option for BL, but to optimize it requires a certain research strategy. With it, BL could theoretically only research to Conj 3 for Apsaras, and lean on White Ones until it gets to Ench6 for Arrow Fend. Now it can unleash a mass of Apsaras with something like 19 Defense (once blesses) and Awe3; the Arrow Fend protects them from missile fire. Now shoot straight for Thau6, and you have 22 Def Awe3 Quickened Arrow Fended Apsaras. Do you see WHY Kailasa and BL are so bad-***? What other nation has a mid-game tool to match that? You wouldn't need to research higher in the Conj tree to find things to spend your pearls on with those. Also, you only NEED pearls, and every gem alchemizes into them on a 2:1 basis. You can really benefit from all gem incomes without needing to do lots of trading. But here's the catch... You need Conj6 Kinnaras to have commanders to cast the Arrow Fend, and you lose any benefit of this strategy (namely, the ability to research other trees than Conj early on). This said, you're better off with an E9 bless and shooting for Gandharvas. I think Apsaras are an absolutely bad-*** unit, just not for BL given their options; they are more suited for Kailasa's needs and blesses.

I prefer to avoid anything more than sloth-1, because the White Ones are a bit resource intensive. Since I like big bless strats, it is important that resources not limit the amount of sacreds I can produce. In fact, a high prod might be a good thing for BL... read on.

Turmoil/Luck is a hard choice. Gold is very useful for BL, but so are all gems since they all turn into pearls easily. If you opt for this route, than a high prod is a good choice. Why? It provides a little extra gold, but more importantly it allows you to focus on gold efficient troops; the ones that are resource intensive but more robust.

I personally find rainbows to be a dubious choice for BL becuase I like strong blesses and they also have access to a lot of summons that increase their diversity. strong W, A, E, S, and N are going to be reasonably easily available. The only thing they miss are death and fire. I'm willing to take a strong double bless and decent scales while losing out on death and fire.

Re: Bandar Log - you whipped me with what?!?
 

Hmmm, I don't know. I suppose if you were extremely unlucky you might not have the gems you need, but I haven't found this to be a problem in the games I played as they're very reasonably priced summons at 25 gems. You start out with nature income from your capital, and I find if you give site searching the priority it's due with this nation (high!) I generally have the gems to summon 3 or so as soon as they're researched, and even a very modest income at that point will let you summon one ever third turn or so. You can certainly put as many as you can get to use, but you don't strictly *need* a large amount. In a pinch just one per army will cover the critical stuff.

Granted, you could theoretically have terrible luck and just not land the sites you really want, but if you're aggressively site searching I don't think it's terribly pressing to worry about not landing astral, water, or nature! Yeah, you'll be hard pressed if you don't have a significant amount of any of these, but that's pretty unlikely. Additionally, part of the thesis for a rainbow pretender is that you can alchemize for what you need if you have the bad luck to not land it naturally.

If you're site searching with a rainbow pretender, and S/N Rishi, you will have a gem income, and it'll be skewed towards S/N. If you've got more clams in one game and more Yaksha in another it isn't a deal breaker, you just need a little flexibility. You could also worry that all the provinces you conquer have less than a thousand population, but it's probably not reasonable to design your nation expecting that.

That said, I fully agree that one of the benefits of blood is it's predictability - though you still have a different randomness on a turn to turn basis as to how many slaves you pull in.

Re: Bandar Log - you whipped me with what?!?
 

Don't forget that while Bandar Log is chasing the research for Ghandarvas, they also get access to Akashic Record. I use it only for Mountain/Forests and other high frequency provinces and have not been disappointed, despite the fact that you have other things to spend Astral on.

I also favor the Nature bless and like Wooden Warriors for BL, so the Mother Oak is almost always mine. That seems to keep a steady supply of summonable mages.

Re: Bandar Log - you whipped me with what?!?
 

I've tried a game with a E4/N4 bless :

Ancient Lich, imprisoned, dom7.
A2 E4 D6 N4 B2 ( half rainbow ;) )
Ord 3 - Prod 1 - Heat 3 - Gro 3 - Misf 2 - Mag 1.

Pretty decent for early expansion imho, mixing elephants and blessed white ones, more for the morale than their battle skills, elephants having usually won the battle before the white ones have reached the frontline.

But I've really big issues with misfortune. I lose a lot of provinces with event attacks. And investing in PD doesn't help, 20 doesn't seem more efficient than 1. What would you cut to reduce misfortune ?

Order is required to recruit the expensive elephants.
Prod is also needed imho ( 17 res. for white ones, 20 for elephants, 23 for bowmen ).
Growth : I never feel comfortable with death, and growth 3 is good for an eventual late game blood economy.
Magic is not an option, you don't have early Air / Death / Fire gem income or mages to forge research boosters and all the astral mages may cast spells with MR check.

What would you change ?
Turmoil 1 Sloth 1 Luck 3 maybe ?

Re: Bandar Log - you whipped me with what?!?
 

I don't like death either, but I wouldn't say growth 3 is essential. If you trim it back to 1 you can remove misfortunate altogether

Re: Bandar Log - you whipped me with what?!?
 

I tried that, game is much more quiet. And I got cool Yashka / Yashkini heroes. Thanks. I gonna keep those scales. :)

Re: Bandar Log - you whipped me with what?!?
 

You're playing with Worthy Heroes on, as there are no monkey nation heroes in the vanilla game except Devasura the Fallen and the longdead raja (Lanka).

Re: Bandar Log - you whipped me with what?!?
 

with Worthy heroes, I like an oracle S9 E9, turmoil 3 sloth 2 Heat 3 luck 3 magic 3

Re: Bandar Log - you whipped me with what?!?
 

And you are actually able to really buy units with that? :shock:

Re: Bandar Log - you whipped me with what?!?
 

some Elephant for early expansion + Whites Ones
I rush for Paralyse (Thau4) and Conjuration-> I summon a lot

Re: Bandar Log - you whipped me with what?!?
 

Thanks for these and your other guides, Baalz!-particularly Marverni-they've really helped me make balancing decisions with my Aksum mod. Infact, removing Astral magic from Aksum was entirely a result of reading Marverni, and considering the potential of Teleport (Aksum is very movement-oriented in it's balancing).

Re: Bandar Log - you whipped me with what?!?
 

This is slightly off-topic but not completely. How would you guys consider Ghandarvas as a recruitable sacred for either/both Kailasa or Bandar Log?

First, would they be too powerful as a recruitable? I don't see them as overpowering in EA, but I wonder what you guys would think--as I find Kailasa a rather frustrating nation to play as is.

Second, how would they be priced, if recruitable? I think 120g or so is fine, cheaper than the premier sacreds like Niefel Giants, but again, I am open to suggestions.

Re: Bandar Log - you whipped me with what?!?
 

Also, why is Devala so damn expensive? I find the unit so worthless vis-a-vis Rudra. Heck, I'd rather build Siddhas--even for the same price!

Re: Bandar Log - you whipped me with what?!?
 

All quickness effects stack. That includes the quickness from the heroic ability. I've got a turn file here with a Jotun Skratti prophet casting Quickness, blessed with water 9, and has the Quickness heroic ability. The proof is that he can attack three different squares in the same round with just his claws. So to say it is a waste is to assume that double quickness is somehow redundant when it isn't. Running on the other hand is a different story.

As for this guide. I like it very much and I'm sure I understand what your trying to say. The point is that you don't need a huge bless, or blood magic, or any of the other tired old schemes to be a powerful force as Bandar Log. I'm particularly glad you made an effort to even make monkey PD sound scary when backed by the right magic spells.

I say this so that everyone else can maybe understand. As it was once said by Gandalf Parker, everyone has their own style which is the best way for them to play. A style is generally, in-of-itself, not superior to other styles. People who gravitate to rainbow gods or SCs just have an affinity to them and through that affinity understand better how to utilize them. Some people understand bless strategies in a way that makes it suitable for them to always utilize sacred units. Baalz has tried his best to not let the strategies he presents get in the way of a person's style. The main point is that you see potential where you may have missed it before. It also has a really cool theme of kicking you butt with "crappy dudes". So please enjoy it for what it is.

Thanks Baalz.

Re: Bandar Log - you whipped me with what?!?
 

Heroic Quickness is multiplicative with other Quickness. However, W9 bless is overwritten by both item and spell Quickness. I was told this very emphatically, so I did my own test to be sure, and it is. W1 mage with W9 bless, cast Blessing he goes to 150% of AP, then cast Personal Quickness, and he goes to 200%.

So since Heroic starts at +50% (or rather x150%), then if you are Quickened from spell or item, you are at 200%, x1.5 = 300% from the get go. It's awesome. ;)

Re: Bandar Log - you whipped me with what?!?
 

Compare them to tiger riders. Would you rather have One ghandarva or two tiger riders after your second turn? If so they should be more expensive than the tiger rider. Perhaps not double, since it is easier to kill one than two with single strikes, but still substantially more expensive. If you prefer rate the ghandarva three times as efficient as the tiger rider you might price them two to three times as expensive.

Since ghandarvas are midgame summons they they do not fit smoothly into the recruitment system. If you do not like high gold cost you might give them an increased resource cost.

Basic way of balancing: how much would I buy this unit instead of other units. As long as you prefer to buy the ghandarva they are too cheap.
When the opportunity cost is too high for you to buy them there are still many niche uses for them, and you are close to right about pricing. Unless you want them to be a ghandarva nation, that is.

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The Devala is costly because she increases your dominion like the juggernaut and also the magic scale where she stays (unless I'm mistaken).