Eternal Knights & Gift of Reason
 

I bet somebody has written about this before, but a search didn't bring it up.

If you have the ability to cast Gift of Reason, or ever the chance to get it in a reasonable number of turns when the Eternal Knights come on to the market, I recommend making sure to get them (put in a serious bid).

Gift of Reason as many of the knights as you can afford. In my experience they are the best value for money commanders in the whole game, and definitely worth the nature gems.

Re: Eternal Knights & Gift of Reason
 

I saw them, they are definitely Knights on Horse-steroids. Can I have them indefinitely when reason-blessing? I don't have experience with mercs mercenaries except Green Horde, Shipwreckers, Elephant Corps, Hector's Horsemen and that inquisitor with pikemen.

Re: Eternal Knights & Gift of Reason
 

Do mercenary units that have been gifted and hence made commanders become yours permanently?

Re: Eternal Knights & Gift of Reason
 

The opening post implies that they do. After all, the mercenary behavior is tied to specific individual commanders. Their units cannot be reassigned either, but if you GoR one, it becomes a commander and is no longer assignable to any squad. So presumably the restrictions vanish.

Re: Eternal Knights & Gift of Reason
 

Bejeezus! I learn new thing about this game everyday--or every time I read this forum!

But the problem with the tactic discussed is that I tend not to research Thaumaturgy early (and I play Very Difficult Research mode games), and I can almost always get stronger summonable Commanders by the time I have it researched.

Re: Eternal Knights & Gift of Reason
 

You're not alone in that. I always play difficult or very difficult research, it makes BI games more of a challenge. Having too much magic too early on leads to just annihilating the AI in hordes.

Re: Eternal Knights & Gift of Reason
 

[quote=Epaminondas;639613]YES!

Sorry, I assumed this was common knowledge.

Re: Eternal Knights & Gift of Reason
 

One positive note is these mercenaries have zero gold upkeep!

One negative note is... be aware that these GoR mercenaries will not release any items you give them. So whatever item you provide be prepared for them to keep it until death.

Re: Eternal Knights & Gift of Reason
 

Also they aren't actually that great, statwise.

Re: Eternal Knights & Gift of Reason
 

Yeah, I'm not sure what the big deal is. They're great as troops if you've got a good bless, mostly due to being sacred and to having good armor and a good weapon.

As thugs though, you'd replace the weapons and armor so you're getting a fairly weak chassis with only the sacred to really recommend it. If you could do it early game, it might be good, but GoR is late enough you'll have other options.

Re: Eternal Knights & Gift of Reason
 

How could someone thought of GOR'ing a merc??

I'm always impressed when someone comes up with something clever that hasn't popped up before. :up:

Re: Eternal Knights & Gift of Reason
 

Totally agree ^_^ I think it's the best part of this game that there are so many little things that you come to know through YEARS of playing and foruming :D

Re: Eternal Knights & Gift of Reason
 

Don't the Eternal Knights all have a Flambeau? That makes this trick especially nice for those who don't have strong access to Fire, or lack Fire gems for whatever reason. And if you have Water for Boots of Quickness, all the better.

I haven't seen these guys in ages, but I swore I always had their commander set to Cast Spells. So if you want the guy for the weapon spell (I think 20N for a guy who can spam that, and lead troops, is a bargain for a non-F nation), then there is no reason to thug him out. All you'd put on him is the Boots if you can, and then maybe an AM Ammy just for good measure. ;)

Re: Eternal Knights & Gift of Reason
 

By the looks of your post, you're confusing flambeau the weapon with flambeau the item. The weapon is just a good two handed sword that messes up undead. The item allows you to spam holy pyre and is thus far better, especially with quickness.

To be clear - Eternal Knights do NOT have flambeau. Giving one quickness is just going to get him killed from fatigue to be honest.

Re: Eternal Knights & Gift of Reason
 

Hmmm. I could have sworn that the merc commander is able to cast the spell though. I guess if that memory is faulty, then it would not make sense at all that the units would be capable of casting it. ;)

I actually had forgotten about these guys (they show up so rarely), but I was working on builds for a Virtue, and noted that her Flambeau wouldn't cast the Pyre, and so realized I must have been remembering this guy. Oh well! :p

Re: Eternal Knights & Gift of Reason
 

i believe the commander has the item, as opposed to just being ascribed the weapon.

Re: Eternal Knights & Gift of Reason
 

But you cannot GOR the commander.

Re: Eternal Knights & Gift of Reason
 

Are you serious? Even a 0 experience eternal knight is a good unit, but the mercenaries have heaps of experience.

In my experience they are utterly awesome.

Re: Eternal Knights & Gift of Reason
 

They're good troops, no question.

What do you do with them once they're GoR'd? Thug them out? What gear?
How do they compare with Banelords or even Firbolg Sleepers?

Re: Eternal Knights & Gift of Reason
 

Of course I'm serious. They're just above average sacred humans. Why not just GoR and thug out one of your sacreds? Or better yet, a sacred priest/commander with some magic like a sidhe lord. The Eternal Knight has no magic, equipment that you'll probably replace and isn't even capable of blessing himself. If you want a random full flotted medium thug, why not just use a sleeper? He's cheaper and easier to get and has better stats iirc.

Re: Eternal Knights & Gift of Reason
 

The **** experience (can't remember if it's four or fire stars they have) is the key really, as well as the natural regeneration.

I recruited them the first time when an enemy started spamming Earth Attack at me. These guys are one of the few things I could come up with capable of taking down the attacking elemental. Didn't even need to equip them that much.

For a thug the fact that the flambeau is a weapon instead of an item is no problem.

Remember that the 1000 points of experience means that they all get in the Hall of Fame and get a heroic ability as well.

***

I have to admit it's a question of style as well. I just like the backstory and look of the Eternal Knights.

Re: Eternal Knights & Gift of Reason
 

An automatic heroic ability, eh? That's pretty cool. However sombre is right - on the scale of tough units you can GoR, an eternal knight is not very high.

Re: Eternal Knights & Gift of Reason
 

By the sound of it you probably shouldn't waste more gems on them by kitting them out. If they have high protection and a decent weapon then that is probably the best way to use them while not wasting to much gems.

On the other hand teh cost of GoR is probably better spend on higher level units.

Re: Eternal Knights & Gift of Reason
 

Well, at the cost of even more gems, knowing that they'll almost certainly hit the Hall of Fame means that you have a good source of mummies for Ritual of Rebirth...

Re: Eternal Knights & Gift of Reason
 

If somebody happens to have the opportunity to do this for a screen shot, that would be cool. No Eternal Knights in any of the games I've currently got running.

I'd also be interested to hear what are these much better units you guys would rather GoR? Remember that my trick has fairly modest requirements, and produces some seriously tough commanders with decent gear.

Re: Eternal Knights & Gift of Reason
 

Davanas :-D

Re: Eternal Knights & Gift of Reason
 

Gargoyle makes a decent unit for GoR. The biggest weakness is low MR. The obvious Tartarians.

Re: Eternal Knights & Gift of Reason
 

Sleeper, Banelord, Bane, Devil, various recruitable thugs. None of them need GoR.

Then by the time you have GoR there are plenty other options. I'm not saying eternal knights are bad, because they aren't. They're great units and GoRing them is fun, especially since they are mercs. But it's hardly a killer tactic.

Re: Eternal Knights & Gift of Reason
 

To reiterate, I think most people tend to research Conjuration before Thamaturgy. So by the time you are able to cast Gift of Reason, I would imagine you'd have at least the mid-level Conjuration spells researched. And when you do that, there are going to be a lot of options.

Re: Eternal Knights & Gift of Reason
 

Tarrasques. Iron Dragons are also good. ;)

I'm trying to think of a suggestion that involves mundane troops, but nothing springs to mind. The problem is that most of the mundane troops who would be worthy of GoR also have a commander version that you can just recruit.

Hmmmm....

How about one of those nasty Hydras?

Re: Eternal Knights & Gift of Reason
 

Tarrasques, Iron Dragons and Hydras lack slots, making them less useful as commanders. Not useless, but not as good as their stats suggest.

I think Sombre nailed it. It's not that there are much better things to GoR, but there are enough better things to summon that don't need GoR at all.

Of course, later on GoR is for Wished units and Tartarians.

Re: Eternal Knights & Gift of Reason
 

Bah! Tarrasques don't need no stinkin' magical trinkets! Give 'em an Amulet of Antimagic, and they're good to go! :D

I agree. GoR is a very niche spell. It's a part of a couple of high-end strategies, but I mostly use it for playing around with fun toys. My GoRed Tarrasque was only one example.

Hey, how about a GoRed Ancestor Vessel from LA TC? That might be kinda cool. Certainly more stylish than leading your army with yet another Khan....

Re: Eternal Knights & Gift of Reason
 

I like GoR'ing Tarrasques.

Just cuz it's fun.

Re: Eternal Knights & Gift of Reason
 

Not denying GoR random neat creatures. I've done it too.
But if we're talking actual utility, then there aren't a lot of options.

And I see the Eternal Knights as falling on the "playing around with fun toys" end of the spectrum, rather than the useful tool end.

Re: Eternal Knights & Gift of Reason
 

Random thought: How many head item slots does a GoRred LA Pythium sacred Hydra have?

...I have not checked and the answer is probably (the boring) "one" (for the great head), but the idea of having a commander kitted out primarily with helmets is fun. :)

Re: Eternal Knights & Gift of Reason
 

Hopefully I will one day make three headed Daityas for Lanka (replacing demon lords for the apes).

Re: Eternal Knights & Gift of Reason
 

I'm kind of fond of the notion that atleast some monsters/beasts/animals might get an 'Armour' slot-to represent both barding, and the ability of magical armour to conform to the body of it's wearer.

Re: Eternal Knights & Gift of Reason
 

Well if it's the same spell as EA Suaromatia's national summon "Daughter of Typhon", then the answer to the number of head slots is the very surprising zero!! just 2 misc slots. Can't help but feel that the GoR caster is getting slighty robbed on this one, unless it's got something to do with forgable helms only being able to fit certain head sizes/types. But then when I think of some of the other units you can slap a helmet on, I think again! :)

Re: Eternal Knights & Gift of Reason
 

The difference is wyrms like hats and hydras don't. End of story.

Re: Eternal Knights & Gift of Reason
 

Awww a hydra fitted with horned helmets, chi boots, two floating tridents would just be the best idea! :(

Re: Eternal Knights & Gift of Reason
 

Forget the floating tridents - go for the stone birds. :-)

Re: Eternal Knights & Gift of Reason
 

How many attacks are possible in one turn maximum? What SC makes the most attacks? Hindu Gods with swords of sharpnesses and chi kick\gore?

Re: Eternal Knights & Gift of Reason
 

Boots of Flying! But you have to put 2 pair on (for all 4 feet), or else she just hops. :p

Also it would be pretty epic if you could put a Medallion of Vengeance on, and every time a head was killed, she exploded. :D

Re: Eternal Knights & Gift of Reason
 

Oh and I forgot to mention - Vastness. Partly because they have a hidden S3.

Are there any other units with hidden magic abilities that only are visible if you GoR them?

Re: Eternal Knights & Gift of Reason
 

Yeah, Vastnesses are worth GoRing.

Vastnesses scare me.

Re: Eternal Knights & Gift of Reason
 

Many of the angels have.

Re: Eternal Knights & Gift of Reason
 

Not to mention the non-commander Tartarians (though I presume that's obvious to anyone who reads/lurks this forum.)

Re: Eternal Knights & Gift of Reason
 

Wait...Vastness is an avatar of...Yog-Sothoth! AIEEEEEE! FGHTAGHN!

Re: Eternal Knights & Gift of Reason
 

I say GoR a Troll Guard (unit#1425):

Comes with Regeneration
All Slots available for items
No Penalty for entering the water
Lots of Hitpoints
Good default MR = 14
Only Size_4 allowing larger stupid decoys to be the target of kill spells.

Re: Eternal Knights & Gift of Reason
 

Moose Knight! :D