Stellar Manipulation Suggestion for 1.42
 

Hello All

The whole point of having systems connected via warp points, rather than just open space, is that it makes the game more interesting from a strategic point of view. Warp Points create the equivalent of chokepoints and borders, allowing the development of fleet deployment strategies. Every good strategy game set in space must do this (Homeworld does not count as it is an RTS). The problem of strategy-nullifying open space was handled differently in MOOII, to give an example, as you could develop a technology that created an intense gravity well around a planet which would slow an approaching enemy fleet to one hex per turn once they were within a certain range of the world. This is a different solution, but completely viable. The problem with completely open space is that the enemy can appear anywhere quickly on his turn and if your fleet was not already sitting there waiting for him then he could destroy with relative impunity, this is first strike capability for which there is no technological counter currently in the game. Which brings me to my suggestion.

Stellar Engineering, as we all know, allows for the creation of warp points eventually up to 500 LY away from the anchor system (50 squares away on the galaxy map). Again, there is no way to defend against this whatsoever. A warp point opens and in pops a fleet which can conceivably wipe out the system. Now there is technological recourse for the worst case scenario, black hole creation or the destruction of the system's star, (i.e. the System Gravitational Shield Facility), but a decent fleet can still glass every world within the system THAT TURN without resorting to a more "Stellar" attack. IMO, this seriously weakens the strategic instrumentality of warp points.

To offset this, I propose one of two possible solutions. The first option could be to allow the System Gravitational Shield Facility to prevent the creation of a Warp Point in that system. Alternatively, make it so that a new Warp Point is unstable the turn of its' creation and is not usable until the following turn. In my mind this might be the better way to go as it keeps a great technology in the game, preserves the technology as a very serious threat, but allows a player's carefully thought out deployment strategies to function the way they were meant to... in other words the targeted player has a chance to close the Warp Point or to rally his defense force. If the target player is unprepared to do this then tough luck - he is being penalized for poor gameplay and the attacker is being rightly rewarded. At least, however, the defender had a chance.

True first strike capability has always been massively destabilizing, both historically and in strategy gaming. I sincerely hope that Malfador corrects this imbalance.

Thoughts?


[This message has been edited by Magus38 (edited 05 September 2001).]

Re: Stellar Manipulation Suggestion for 1.42
 

Actually unless its been changed in the Last patch, there is a defense. You can only have ten WP's in a system. It is a simple matter to create the maximum number of WP's to other systems thereby denying others the ability to open a WP in your system.

Re: Stellar Manipulation Suggestion for 1.42
 

More, you can open those WPs all in the same sector, greatly simplifing defense. Popping into the teeth of 30 missile-armed sats, 10-20 bases, and a planet (with moon, if possible) equipped with cargo facilties and heavy WPs would NOT be my idea of an easy assult.

Beyond that, in simultanious games- i.e. all PBW games and some email games- your enemy has time to react to your surprise, because you give the order to open the WP, and then when the orders go through it works. Thing is, you can't tell ships to warp through a point which isn't there yet, and your opponent gets told of what happened the same turn you do.

Phoenix-D

Re: Stellar Manipulation Suggestion for 1.42
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>and a planet (with moon, if possible) <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Hey, why not make it a sphereworld.
128,000 cargo.
That's 213 Large Weapon platforms with a thousand weapons, and a bazillion hitpoints. All 100% maintenance free.

Note that as soon as you build that sphereworld, it is easy to make all your warppoints converge on it. Plus, you can ship in all those platforms from the rest of your empire's planets, making the build time essentially zero.

[This message has been edited by suicide_junkie (edited 05 September 2001).]

Re: Stellar Manipulation Suggestion for 1.42
 

The creation and deletion of worm holes happens before ship movement in se4

there fore you can tell the ship to open a worm hole and tell the fleet to move thru to the targetted end of the worm hole, it will show the path going the long way because there is no worm hole yet, but the worm hole is created before the fleet moves and the fleet always chooses the shortest path in this case thru the newly created worm hole.

So you can create and move ships thru the new worm hole in the same turn in similtanious play e.g. in pbw http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

and yes a facility to be able to stop worm holes being targetted at your system is a good idea, at the moment my only defence against it is to spread my forces and factories out so no one system is of great value to my race.

------------------
CyC
L+++ GdY $!+ Fr+ C--- S* T!- Sf++ Tcp++ A? M++ MpM RV Pw+ Fq++ Nd+++++ Rp++ G

Re: Stellar Manipulation Suggestion for 1.42
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by CyC:
...at the moment my only defence against it is to spread my forces and factories out so no one system is of great value to my race.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Therefore, if we can make the enemy show his position while we are formless, we will be at full force while the enemy is divided.
Sun Tzu, "The Art of War", Chapter 6<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You are very wise Cyc. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

Geo

Re: Stellar Manipulation Suggestion for 1.42
 

Just about the only weapon that lets you defeat an overwhelmingly powerful foe is my favourite, the allegiance subverter. Add in a Computer Virus III if you are fighting MC ships. It doesn't always work, and you have only one shot, but if it does magic happens!

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Hence a wise general makes a point of foraging on the enemy. One cartload of the enemy's provisions is equivalent to twenty of one's own, and likewise a single picul of his provender is equivalent to twenty from one's own store.

Sun Tzu, "The Art of War", Chapter 2<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


[This message has been edited by CW (edited 05 September 2001).]

Re: Stellar Manipulation Suggestion for 1.42
 

Thanks for the input everyone.

I am aware of the 10 WP limit, but this hardly seems a solution, rather it simply exploits a limitation of the system and so merely provides an awkward workaround (this is not to say that I wouldn't do it in extremis though).

A good general (as Sun Tzu makes clear) always seeks to match concentration against dispersion. You are constantly seeking to be elsewhere than your opponent believes you to be, attacking where he believes you will defend, etc. To accomplish this you must know yourself, know your enemy and know the terrain. Unfortunately, WP technology renders the terrain essentially unknowable.

This has bothered me for some time actually, I am surprised that it has not been as issue before as it is so obviously destructive to strategy. All you can do in such a situation is react.

Re: Stellar Manipulation Suggestion for 1.42
 

I am in a PBW game right now where wormholes are opening up all the time, usually with a fleet of 100+ ships (mostly baseships) right behind it. NOT GOOD!! This lack of defense against wormholes combined with no way to retreat from tac/strategic combat are IMO the two biggest deficiencies in se4.

I second the motion to have a 'gravity well' device or somesuch that prevents wormholes from entering a specific system (and a device that does not take 20+ turns to build!!!!)

&lt;That and how about an option for 'emergency build' that applies to RESEARCH!, would work wonders!&gt;

------------------
"And what the hell would you know about sanity?" demanded Beatrice. "There are depressed lemmings on the edge of cliffs who've got a better grasp on reality than you have. And more common sense."--Simon R. Green 'Deathstalker Rebellion'.

"We are all...the sum of our scars"....(paraphrased) Matt. R. Stover-'Blade of Tyshalle'.

"Memory," the old man said softly, "is tricky. I have learned two things from it. One: That without meaningful memories, there is no life. Two: that we are desperate for our lives to make sense, to have meaning,--and at a great enough remove , all memory is malleable." -Michelle West 'Sea of Sorrows', SunSword book IV.

Re: Stellar Manipulation Suggestion for 1.42
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I second the motion to have a 'gravity well' device or somesuch that prevents wormholes from entering a specific system (and a device that does not take 20+ turns to build!!!!)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'd rather not see that happen! It will make WP openers totally worthless! Better take the second option suggested with a bit of amendment - make the newly created warp points unstable for a few turns, let them be VERY unstable to start with then gradually stabilise out. A very desperate opponent can take the chance and risk his fleet wiped out by sending it straight through a newly created warp point, on the other hand you can play it safe by giving up your element of surprise - the longer you wait the less chance/degree of damage.

Re: Stellar Manipulation Suggestion for 1.42
 

Quote"quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I second the motion to have a 'gravity well' device or somesuch that prevents wormholes from entering a specific system (and a device that does not take 20+ turns to build!!!!)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'd rather not see that happen! It will make WP openers totally worthless!
"

Simple to fix, just have a new Intelligence project added to destroy the 'gravity well' or whatever is keeping the wormhole from opening. Or find out from an 'ally' which planet the device is on and send a cloaked stealth ship to bomb it. The point I was trying to make is that there should be a 'counter' for every action. (or maybe the device should slow the wormhole opening, make it take 2 turns or something, give you warning....Or heck, how about just giving Stellar Tech wormhole devices different levels (I, II, III etc) and needing an 'upgraded' device to defend vs. each level (need device II to defend against a wormhole opener I or II but III still works))

Just some more food for thought......

Re: Stellar Manipulation Suggestion for 1.42
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Simple to fix, just have a new Intelligence project added to destroy the 'gravity well' or whatever is keeping the wormhole from opening.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Does that need a new project? I'd think there's already a facility destroying project in there some where. (I don't know for sure, because I've only ever researched past Intel 2 twice so far.)

------------------
Cap'n Q

The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the
human mind to correlate all of its contents. We live on a placid
island of ignorance in the midst of black seas of infinity, and it was
not meant that we should go far. -- HP Lovecraft, "The Call of Cthulhu"

Re: Stellar Manipulation Suggestion for 1.42
 

I disagree that Stellar Manipulation (WPO, Warp point opening) should be altered in any way.
SE IV prior to WPO could be compared to World War I. It is essentially a trench war. Everybody tries to defend choke points as good as possible. Sometimes the enemy gets through, sometimes not. You can always fall back or have additional lines of defense.
When WPO comes into play that all changes. Static defenses are useless, mobility is the key (WW II, tanks, Blitzkrieg). What's so bad about it? It's a great thing to break stalemates and deal out some serious (if not lethal) damage to your enemy. You have to adjust to that and make use of it, instead of thinking how to change it.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> originally posted by Magus38:
This has bothered me for some time actually, I am surprised that it has not been as issue before as it is so obviously destructive to strategy. All you can do in such a situation is react.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you find this so destructive to strategy, why don't you make it part of your strategy and disrupt your opponents plans?

Honestly, if can grow a healthy empire and wage war against your enemy with "conventional methods", while diverting some resources to develop and build WPO (not to mention another fleet to send through) then you have done well and deserve to win. Just don't put too much into stellar manipulation or your enemy will crush you before you ever opened one warp point http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/ima...ons/icon12.gif. IMHO, this is one of the great aspects of the game. No need to change it. There doesn't have to be a counter measure (gravity well device) for everything in the game, let alone a counter measure against the counter measure (Intel project to destroy gravity device).

If both sides have the ability to do this and send a hundred base ships through. Well great, than we have nuclear war. No defenses, no survivors, mutual destruction assured, the end of all (Maybe, it's time to make peace and talk arms reduction? http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/ima...ons/icon12.gif).

Just my opinion,
Rollo

Re: Stellar Manipulation Suggestion for 1.42
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Rollo:
What's so bad about it? It's a great thing to break stalemates and deal out some serious (if not lethal) damage to your enemy. You have to adjust to that and make use of it, instead of thinking how to change it.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Why make the assumption from what I wrote that I like stalemates or entrenched positions? I am not arguing for the elimination of WP technology. The solution I would prefer is that of temporary instability. A good suggestion was offered a couple of Posts ago. It offered the idea that the WP move from very unstable to stable across a short series of turns, so that you could pass through it the turn of its' creation, but would incur serious risks to your fleet in doing so.

In any case, please understand my purpose. I like WP technology and I agree that it could move the game into another phase of warfare requiring greater reaction speed, better planning, etc. There is nothing "wrong with that", in fact there is everything right with that, again in theory. The problem, with the technology as it is currently implemented, is that I can show up with a fleet and glass and entire system relatively easily (I know having done it) and my opponent can do nothing but react after the fact. I'll go one step further... I can show up, glass an entire system and then leave, closing the new wormwhole after me. I am sorry but, as it stands now, how skilled a strategist you are becomes completely IRRELEVANT. No amount of adjustment in my thinking is going to alter that outcome because there simply is no way to prepare for this.

Where no preparation is possible, no strategy is possible.


[This message has been edited by Magus38 (edited 06 September 2001).]

[This message has been edited by Magus38 (edited 06 September 2001).]

Re: Stellar Manipulation Suggestion for 1.42
 

The strategy is the blizt blizt situation

Techniques of protecting yourself against WormHoles
1. get WormHole tech first and use it on them.
2. Use diplomatic threats and negotiations if multiple empires have Worm Hole tech get a truce saying that if an empire uses a Blitz tactic everyone else will Blitz them.
3. Keep multiple blitz stations yourself and keep them on the move, If someone tries to blitz you, You Blitz them back both where they come in and esecially where they came from since they would of sent most there defence to blitz you.
4. In ultra important system (You should never have ultra important systems) place mines and storms in every sector around the edges of your systems in the directions of your enemies.(Worm holes always apear around the edges of your system)
5. Massive amount of fighter and Planetary Bases in every system (this is really a Last resort and never works).
6. Keep all your ships togeather and moving and keep a Worm Hole creation ship (biggest posible) with your vessels at all times so you can be anywhere in a moments notice. Never Put a few ships at each planet ships are valuable yet useless by them selves.



------------------
CyC
L+++ GdY $!+ Fr+ C--- S* T!- Sf++ Tcp++ A? M++ MpM RV Pw+ Fq++ Nd+++++ Rp++ G

Re: Stellar Manipulation Suggestion for 1.42
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by CyC:
&lt;snip&gt;
4. In ultra important system (You should never have ultra important systems) place mines and storms in every sector around the edges of your systems in the directions of your enemies.(Worm holes always apear around the edges of your system)
&lt;snip&gt;
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, if you turn on the option "warp points can appear anywhere in system" at game setup, the player-created warp points also appear anywhere, not just on the edges.

So you'd be better off putting minefields on your planets. Besides, you could concentrate your forces better that way; spreading mines all around the edge of a system is a tad drastic.

------------------
L++ GdY $ Fr&gt;Fr++ C++ SdS T-- Sf Tcp? A%% M- Mp! RTH!P Pw Fq--&gt;Fq+ Nd&gt;Nd+++++ Rp++ G+

Re: Stellar Manipulation Suggestion for 1.42
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by CyC:
The strategy is the blizt blizt situation

Techniques of protecting yourself against WormHoles
1. get WormHole tech first and use it on them.
2. Use diplomatic threats and negotiations if multiple empires have Worm Hole tech get a truce saying that if an empire uses a Blitz tactic everyone else will Blitz them.
3. Keep multiple blitz stations yourself and keep them on the move, If someone tries to blitz you, You Blitz them back both where they come in and esecially where they came from since they would of sent most there defence to blitz you.
4. In ultra important system (You should never have ultra important systems) place mines and storms in every sector around the edges of your systems in the directions of your enemies.(Worm holes always apear around the edges of your system)
5. Massive amount of fighter and Planetary Bases in every system (this is really a Last resort and never works).
6. Keep all your ships togeather and moving and keep a Worm Hole creation ship (biggest posible) with your vessels at all times so you can be anywhere in a moments notice. Never Put a few ships at each planet ships are valuable yet useless by them selves.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

1) If you are playing in a 20 player game (something I prefer) than a huge chunk of the game is nothing more than a race for a single critical technology and then what? Declare war on everybody? The fact that a single tech is this critical clearly indicates a game balance problem.

2) This is possible. Something like the biological warfare / atrocity diplomatic concept. War has always been considered (rightly) as an extension of a nation's diplomacy. Historically, there have been attempts made to regulate the uncontrolled use of force for military purposes. What you are proposing is a variety of Geneva Convention on the use of Warp Point technology. This works as long as no one empire is significantly stronger than any other. Once a few empires get strong enough someone always gets impatient, blitzes massively, disabling several rivals quickly, then forces peace back down the other's throats. The others generally go the way of appeasement for fear of this happening to them and their neighbor's not having the balls to stand up and defend them as per the original accord.

In other words, this solution looks good on paper, but if the weapon is there to be used then eventually it will be.

3) This is not so much a strategy as it is a reaction. Mutual anihilation is certainly an option (though I wouldn't want to be a citizen in these empires), but it still does not prevent the WP first strike, nor does it render it any less of a massively destabilizing, must-have technology.

4) All strategies dealing with the placement of mines in order to combat the WP first strike capability are doomed to complete and utter failure simply because any human-led empire that has the technology to open warp points and send in a Blitzkreig fleet of significant size is going to be certain to have their fleet accompanied by a mine sweeper ship carrying enough mine sweepers to clean 100 mines from any given sector per turn (I usually go for 110 just in case as sometimes I have seen a few more that 100 per sector... this is slightly bugged but that is another thread...). This is not a viable defense strategy, rather it is an ultimately futile attempt to get around this badly implemented, strategy-nullifying feature.

Why strategy-nullifying? Because, as I said earlier, where no reasonable defensive preparation is possible, then no defensive strategy is possible. One can do nothing but "plan" to react after the fact.

5) As Cyc points out himself, this never works in practice.

6) This renders you capable of reaction, solely. See my response to point 3.

Please understand what I am arguing for and why. I am greatly in favour of surprise attacks. ALL thoughtfully prepared attacks ought to come as a surprise to the enemy. Moreover, Blitzkreig tactics are naturally a good idea, as once you commit to attacking someone you are more vulnerable to attack yourself. Waging a "lightning war" is, therefore, the best way to avoid war on multiple fronts.

My objection has been (and remains) that this technology should be altered so that the kind of preparation illustrated in CyC's 6th point could be effective as a defense strategy (I employ it myself) and not merely as a means of taking vengeance.

I think, the best solution to how WP technology could be rebalanced remains the instability delay I put forward in my original post, or CW's well thought out variation on that (see his post a few notches down).


[This message has been edited by Magus38 (edited 06 September 2001).]

[This message has been edited by Magus38 (edited 06 September 2001).]

[This message has been edited by Magus38 (edited 06 September 2001).]

Re: Stellar Manipulation Suggestion for 1.42
 

The 'simple' answer IMHO is to use the game setup "All Warp Points Connected" (I think that's what its called) and disallow WP Manipulation in the Tech Setup section. Now you don't have to worry 'bout that problem.

The problem (or feature depending on your perspective) with this is you now have basically conventional-type warfare with different weapons. However, I do agree that the WP 'Rush' tactic is something to be concerned about.....

Re: Stellar Manipulation Suggestion for 1.42
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>From current beta patch history.txt
5. Added - The System Gravitational Shield now prevents warp point opening within the system. This prevents warp point opening into or out of the system by all players (including you!).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Looks like someone sent this suggestion to Aaron, or he thought of it himself, cause it will be in the next patch.

Geoschmo

Re: Stellar Manipulation Suggestion for 1.42
 

Hooray! Finally, a defence is possible!

I suppose this does mean that it's possible for a player to seal himself off from the rest of the quadrant impregnably, by closing all warp points out of his grav-shielded systems and abandoning any colonies outside of that group to remove the possibility of intel. But since grav shield facilities cost a fortune and take forever to build, it's likely that this will only account for a small number of systems. If he ever decides to reopen the gates to the outside world again, he's likely to find that he's been left behind by the massive non-isolationist empires out there. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Stellar Manipulation Suggestion for 1.42
 

Yep. I have to play around with it some. If the ability is usable by non-facilities, it offers some intriguing mod possibilities too.

Geoschmo

Re: Stellar Manipulation Suggestion for 1.42
 

The possibility that leapt immediately to mind was giving a planet the system-grav-shield function, sealing the system until whoever's trapped inside develops tectonic disruption weapons powerful enough to destroy it. A pity the AI isn't very clever, one could set up a cute "ancient evil sealed away by ancient foes" scenario with the ancient evil breaking out of their ancient prison to menace the younger races. A human could play that role in PBW, though.

I suppose you could give it to a sun as well in that case, so that anyone trapped inside has to commit suicide in order to free themselves. But that's kind of pointlessly mean.

Oh, on the other hand, one could use the map editor to make one-way warp points leading into such a "sealed" system. Kind of an interesting situation for the crews; they'd better hope there's a colonizable planet in there. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Stellar Manipulation Suggestion for 1.42
 

This is fantastic news. I have to admit that I had been giving the game a rest for awhile; until the patch came out (I got back into Age of Wonders - another fabulous turn-based strat game - 'plug'). With the news of this fix, alongside Intel being fixed, I cannot wait to play again.

Re: Stellar Manipulation Suggestion for 1.42
 

Now if only there could be 'levels' of effectiveness for stellar manipulation and the defenses against it so the game wasn't so simple. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif As it is now, you build a defense and that's it, you're safe. Hardly realistic.

Re: Stellar Manipulation Suggestion for 1.42
 

At one point, someone had suggested making the Warp Point creation ships one-shot ships like the SM ships that destroy stars. Granted, you pay a huge maintenance cost for SM ships already. What effect do you think it would have on the game if the SM components were non-repairable?

I have forgotten now. Did they require that SM components have to be repaired at a space station?

Re: Stellar Manipulation Suggestion for 1.42
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by raynor:
At one point, someone had suggested making the Warp Point creation ships one-shot ships like the SM ships that destroy stars. Granted, you pay a huge maintenance cost for SM ships already. What effect do you think it would have on the game if the SM components were non-repairable?

I have forgotten now. Did they require that SM components have to be repaired at a space station?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What? So "this component is destroyed after use" actually means "this component is DAMAGED after use but can be repaired" ?!

Is this damage repaired in a single turn like other damaged components?

This makes a HUGE difference in my current game (my first long-term PBW game). I've just now researched Warp-point manipulation, but was putting it off as the ships were going to take about 2.4 years to build. But if I can just repair the component, then WHO CARES how expensive they are to build, they can be reused indefinitely.

Granted I'm coming at this from the other angle, but in my opinion reducing them to true single-shot ships would make a HUGE difference.

------------------
-MegaTrain-
Athlon 1.3 GHz running at 1.6 GHz on an iWill KK266

Re: Stellar Manipulation Suggestion for 1.42
 

Only Emergency movement pods and Emergency supply pods require a spaceyard to repair.

You could add the same ability to SM components, thus forcing them to be brought back to a Spaceyard for replacement.

Re: Stellar Manipulation Suggestion for 1.42
 

"Is this damage repaired in a single turn like other damaged components?"

Yes. In SE4, there is NO SUCH THING as a damaged component. It's 100% or gone. But unlike space yards, repair yards repair a set number of components per turn, no matter how expensive the component is.

Phoenix-D

Re: Stellar Manipulation Suggestion for 1.42
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by suicide_junkie:
Only Emergency movement pods and Emergency supply pods require a spaceyard to repair.

You could add the same ability to SM components, thus forcing them to be brought back to a Spaceyard for replacement.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What's stopping you building a spaceyard ship with a WP opener or closer? It only costs you 500kt of space! In that case I would through in an emergency populsion pod too!

Re: Stellar Manipulation Suggestion for 1.42
 

"Only"?

You're talking a total of at least 600kt there. In other words, you'll need a Battleship sized ship just to make it, to say nothing of having decent speed and defenses.

Battleships are also the first ship with major speed drop, and the third to LAST ship size.

Phoenix-D

Re: Stellar Manipulation Suggestion for 1.42
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Phoenix-D:
"Only"?

You're talking a total of at least 600kt there. In other words, you'll need a Battleship sized ship just to make it, to say nothing of having decent speed and defenses.

Battleships are also the first ship with major speed drop, and the third to LAST ship size.

Phoenix-D<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

By it works. As to the speed I'm pretty happy with the DNs which make up the core of my fleet. And defense? The best defense is a bunch of other ships. Putting an insane amount of armour or shield or even weapons on one ship is not going to help a single bit, especially when you have the AI fighting for you in strategic combat.

Re: Stellar Manipulation Suggestion for 1.42
 

Dreads are two speed slower than a BC. BBs are one slower. That, incidently, is as much as the 1000 racial cost trait Propulsion Experts..

Why do you need protection?
Targeting strategy: Weakest, Does Not have Weapons, Nearest. Your SM ship now becomes target #1..

Phoenix-D

Re: Stellar Manipulation Suggestion for 1.42
 

Most likely my WP opener would run to a corner and your ships have to charge through my escorting ships first before they get to it.

Doesn't a PD gun count as a weapon? My specialised ships are definitely not equiped with the "decent" defenses to protect themselves by themselves, but they ARE equiped to take on the occasional stray bullets.

BTW, I AM a propulsion expert!


[This message has been edited by CW (edited 03 October 2001).]

Re: Stellar Manipulation Suggestion for 1.42
 

PD only counts as a weapon for engine destroyers.

So, you don't fleet your SM ships? I can see why. Problem is, I don't think non-fleeted ships all at the same time.

What I mean:
Say you have an escort fleet and your SM ship. You need to move them into position to close a warp point. I give orders to attack your SM ship. I know which ship it is since it's the only example of that class in that sector. Now, the ships move. At some point, your SM ship and your fleet will not be on the same sector. If my fleet hits then, your SM ship is totally and utterly screwed.

Then again, at least you didn't run yours into a minefield http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/ima...ons/icon12.gif

As for propulsion experts: So you paid 1000 racial points to move a 200kt larger ship the same speed, effectively http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

Phoenix-D

Re: Stellar Manipulation Suggestion for 1.42
 

Just to clarify for newbies, and to allow othrs to correct me if I'm wrong:

In SEIV, damaged and destroyd are the same thing.

Damaged components can be repaired by repair bays or spacyards.

(Most) Stellar manipulation components are destroyed on use. Same for emergency movement / resupply pods & boarding parties.

In the current Version there's nothing to stop you putting a repair bay (150kt) on the same ship as your SM ship / boarding ship / emergncy propulasion ship and re-using the compnent every turn.

In the next patch, emergency movemnt will be given the ability (ie restriction) "can only be repaired at space yard" to negate the exploit in the previous point.

Modders hope that this ability will be something they can access so that they can apply it to SM components and other components. (Crew Quarters would be good)

Questions:
Can modders use this ability or will it be hard coded?

Does "can only be repaired at Spaceyard" mean plaentary spaceyard or any spaceyard? The best solution would be allowing modders to choose. (Assuming the previous question is answrd "yes".)

Now that the emergency movement pods can't be exploited so easily, can we put more than one on a ship again?

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/SE4 Code
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