Thug Commanders
 

When is a thug a thug? I mean if you put lev 2 construction items on a commander , would that be considered a thug?

I don't seem to be having success sending one or two thugs againsts a larger force.:(

Re: Thug Commanders
 

Thugs are commanders that have a good chance of doing 20-30 kills if tossed into a regular force(and surviving).

SCs are the only things that are supposed to solo larger forces alone, and even then building them is an art that requires Con6 items and the best summons in the game. A good thug really is just supposed to reduce the numbers of friendly casualties as opposed to taking things alone.

Re: Thug Commanders
 

OR to work in small packs. Some easily amassed units can be brutally effective against smaller or poorly supported forces, with a couple of key items (and possibly a little buffing ability).

Thugs are units that you can take an independent province with maybe 12 of them at most, working together. They're meant to support each other, as a unit, or to support a larger force of regular soldiers.

Thugs, unlike SCs, you can gradually salt into your main force, until they eventually *become* your main force-or atleast a significant portion of it. SCs on the other hand are always meant to be in the center of the action, performing a specific, important role, either as the single unit-as in a solo SC-or as the linchpin unit-that provides the support necessary to take a Province that you simply couldn't take with normal units, or atleast without much heavier casualties and risk.

The primary difference between a thug and an SC is that thugs are meant to work as a small but powerful-and often versatile-unit, while SCs perform all the functions of a thug unit, all by itself.

Another major difference between a thug and an SC is the amount of time, money, resources, equipment, gems, etc. you should be willing to invest in them. A thug can be kitted out with equipment, but not so much that it's going to cripple you to lose that thug. Thugs aren't as expendable as a common soldier, but they're a good degree more expensive than an SC, and they often find themselves in more dangerous situations than either a soldier or an SC.

It's my opinion, atleast, that SCs shouldn't be used to statically defend provinces, in many cases. Thugs are great for this role, because they compliment PD, but defending a province with an SC makes it a great big target, and the more stationary it is, the better chance the enemy will find a way to take it out. So mobility and maneuverability is another SC byword.

Artifacts really shouldn't end up in the hands of thugs. It's fine of that's all you've got, but it really should be the SC carrying those around.

Curse and Horror Mark can be pretty dangerous for a thug. Curse and Horror Mark for an SC, though, should always be anticipated. SCs thrive on MR, and you should take extreme measures to raise SC MR as high as possible. You really can't have too much. And an SC should be able to deal with atleast a Lesser Horror, handily.

Take a really close look at the Pretender chassis-an SC should be able to whip any unmodified, unequipped, Pretender chassis-from a cyclops to a wyrm, to even maybe a gorgon (arguably the most powerful SC chassis), without significant risk, having given your SC decent gear ofcourse.

A thug isn't a thug unless it can take out atleast 6 heavy infantry, solo. An SC, on the other hand, ought to be able to take out unlimited heavy infantries (if they're unsupported), until the clock runs out. If paralysed and helpless, an SC should still be able to survive for multiple rounds. Any single affliction should not by itself be able to remove an SC's super-combatant status. If an SC isn't in the Hall of Fame, it should only be because there are other SCs, or Pretenders, ahead of them.

SCs do not require support from other units. They can definitely benefit from it-an SC surrounded by 6-12 thug bodyguards can be a powerful force-but it shouldn't be required on a permanent basis. It's a good idea if you can make it happen, though. If necessary, an SC can defend a province by itself handily, for atleast a turn (long enough to purchase some PD). An SC should never be able to be defeated by numbers alone, there should always be a factor that's required to take one out-whether it's barbarians, undead, a spell, enemy thugs, whatever. And SCs should be immune to some of the things your enemy will try-resistant to elemental magic, high MR, etherial, whatever. The more immunities the better. Thugs can afford just to be tough and mean.

Thugs can also afford to be permanently specialized to combat a specific threat. If you're playing Shinuyama, for instance, it's perfectly acceptible to make several kappa chieftains into thugs, because you know you can use them for getting into the water, and holding on to it. That's their purpose, the reason you created them. If you use them to break a seige, because they're your closest A-team, that's secondary to their purpose. It's useful, but incidental.

You could still kit out a cyclops Pretender for entering the water, but you've got to be ready to use him for a lot more than that-it's not a good idea to commit him to *just* taking water provinces. That's not why you build SCs.

That said, you can build SCs for specific purposes-like an ancient kraken for early underwater expansion-but be prepaired to take steps to eventually get your kraken on the land.

Strategies should be built around SCs more than SCs built around strategies. Thugs are great, but they're always supplimentary to your theater of war. Thugs are special forces, commandoes, maybe even tanks. SCs are, if anything, aircraft carriers. Thugs you can place where you need, where things are the hottest, or where you expect an attack, but aren't sure when. You don't have to spend a lot of time thinking about them, they're there to use. SCs you should *always* be thinking about, on a long term basis. And if you lose one, you should feel it. Until the Late Game, it should be a setback to lose an SC.

Thugs you're going to lose, eventually. With thugs, you should always be thinking in terms of numbers. How many do you need to fulfill a task, and what's the cheapest gear they need to complete that task? Thugs get horned helmets and fear helmets-cheap but effective. SCs get 50 deathgem wraithcrowns. Thugs you can afford to give 2-handed weapons to. If an SC has a 2-handed weapon, it needs to be a great one, and it should usually be specialized-gate cleaver for taking castles, or arena tridents, because you're dominating there, or hellswords because they're fantastic. Thugs get equipment as you can afford to give it to them, cheap stuff first. SCs get every slot filled with either specialized gear, or the best gear possible.

Cost is a factor with thugs, it isn't a factor with SCs. SCs are commanders, every time. The closest recruitables get to being SCs is probably the sacred hydra, but the difference there is that even if you've got a triple 10 bless on them, they're static. They only improve as your national spells improve, and as they gain experience. SCs can improve themselves outside of your national arc. Thugs can too, ofcourse, if they're commanders, but the effect is always diluted by their numbers, and by the fact that thugs are meant to suppliment what you've already got.

An SC can be completely apart from the rest of your Nation-you can have an SC going in entirely different directions from what the rest of your nation is doing. Thugs have to stay closer to home.

And SCs-as mentioned-can solo. Thugs should never, ever solo, unless you're using them as a scout, or as an assassin. Trying to solo with a thug is just wasting a valuable thug, even if you're taking a Province without any commanders-because a single Thug can't hold a Province by itself.

Re: Thug Commanders
 

Honey, that is the best explanation of thugs/Sc's that I've seen.

Re: Thug Commanders
 

I'd disagree though that thugs should never solo. A decent thug can often handle reasonable levels of PD. If you've got recruitable thugs, early on they can often take independents.
Thugs, especially if they're cheap enough, make great raiders. They'll get killed eventually and the provinces retaken, but it can be cost effective. Stealthy thugs are best, since they can sneak away before even a teleporter can get to them.

Re: Thug Commanders
 

Some thug/SC chassis suggestions plz?

Re: Thug Commanders
 

Thugs - Black Servant, Bane, Banelord (straying into lesser SC territory here), Sleeper, lesser angels, any tough recruitable commander like a sidhe, even LA Ulm's Hochmeister etc

Basically anything with a decent number of combat advantages and itemslots at a low cost.

Re: Thug Commanders
 

I'd do a bit of SP testing with thugs.

Personally, I think the key to thugs is that you're expecting them to take out large numbers of basic units who don't have magical weapons or mage support. I'd say a decent thug should be able to kill at least 10 points of PD comfortably.

They need to either avoid being hit (e.g. missile shield, awe, ethereal) or able to resist damage when hit (25+ protection, mistform). They should be able to kill quickly, more than 1 enemy per turn. If they have high encumbrance, they'll need reinvigoration. If you know your opponent has some sort of aura (eg. fire for Abysia, cold for undead), you need the appropriate resistance.

Thugs tend to have limited HP, which also means regeneration is often limited use, so don't go out of your way. Similarly you shouldn't be spending gems on non-essential elemental resistances or magic resistance. The exception might be something near the thug/SC borderline (e.g. a banelord) which is worth investing more in.

For a great bit of info how to turn units that don't at first seem very dangerous into nasty thugs, Baalz has a guide on Eriu (Tir Na Nog?) which has some pointers with their Sidhe and Tuatha.

Re: Thug Commanders
 

My favorite thug is a gift of reasoned gargoyle.:D

Re: Thug Commanders
 

Well, the role of a unit as an SC or as a Thug can change, ofcourse. If you're using a unit to solo independents in the early game, it's an SC. If you later on use it to support troops, along with several other units of similar power, it's then a Thug. I think the primary difference between "Thug" and "SC" is how much you're focussing on them, at that given point in the game, not just on their respective level of power. A Cyclops, for instance, is a respectable SC Pretender, but when you stop using your Cyclops for combat/expansion and only use it for forging, research, summoning, etc. in your home province, it can be argued that it's no longer an SC, because while it's still "super", it's no longer a "combatant".

There's plenty written about Thug builds, but give a "thug" chassis enough choice equipment and empowerment, experience, make him a Prophet, etc. and he becomes a lot closer to an SC.

And thanks for the compliments! :)

Maybe I'll rewrite this and stick it in the strategies index, if you all think it's useful.

Re: Thug Commanders
 

I have a hard time thinking of things like Sidhe Lords or Jotun Jarls as SCs, regardless of gear. They'll be able to solo some indies and beat PD, but they're still not up to the level of able to handle anything they happen to run into that isn't designed to take them down, that I expect SCs to be at.


I'm really quibbling over terminology at this point.
The two do shade into each other and the expected power level scales up throughout the game. By the endgame even the toughest SCs aren't usually sent out solo, except for thug-like raiding.

Re: Thug Commanders
 

Yeah, I personally think of SCs as being more unique, and Thugs as being more generic. It's still a factor of respective power, though.

Re: Thug Commanders
 

Yeah IMO, units never switch thug/SC status just based on what time in the game it is. It really is a rather static assesment of the powerful of a single unit. A thug will always be a thug.

Re: Thug Commanders
 

I think this has been addressed before, but I paid no attention to it then. Can a Pan be made into a cost-effective thug? They are hugely expensive, but they do have good stats and all slots.

Re: Thug Commanders
 

I had read in the Dominions 3 WIKI that thugs were for taking over lightly defended provinces and taking on large common armies alone.
Since I got Dominions 3 back in late June I've been playing Arcoscephale EA exclusively. I guess the Arco's aren't really a good thug nation.
I have pretty much settled in using a rainbow sage with 24 research for my pretender. Since research is so important in this game, you really can't afford to slack on it. Using the pretender for an SC early seems counter productive. Unless the map is small.

Re: Thug Commanders
 

...I dont think that the pretender´s research is that important, in the long run. Particularily since EA arco has access to philosophers as cheap researchers which can be spammed with ease.

You might do better with a SC pretender so that you get the resources to star your research economy... of course, you lose the gems edge, but you are losing that already if your pretender is sitting in the capital researching.

Re: Thug Commanders
 

It depends on how weak/strong your nation is starting off. Some nations gain a great deal of benefit from having an early game SC to help out their pathetic starting army, or to help fend off an early rush. It seems though that a lot of the use of almost purely SC pretenders is when the alternatives require a lot of micromanagement and general skill. Not to bash the users of said SCs, especially as I have absolutely no claim to skill. I do tend to notice that a lot of Baalz's guides for instance are for nations that people think need an SC, but he shows that given the right spells and the right scripting you can overcome problems without it while retaining late game power.

Re: Thug Commanders
 

I use the 24 research pretender combined with those Oreiad's, philospher's don't do enough research per turn. OK they may be cheaper but I like to set up the pretender and 4 or 5 Oreiad's doing the research,then I make a mage/enginner and make quill pens for all of them.
The pretender has 7 dominion, sloth 1,growth 1, lev 2 in all magic paths except blood. Seems to be working well when playing the AI.

Re: Thug Commanders
 

My favorite thug is Bane Lord
Boots of flying, jade armor,frost brand, any shield (my prefered is the lightning shield), pendant of luck, pendant of MR.
A fearsome raider indeed. especially if your opponent has no access to anti undead.

Re: Thug Commanders
 

Of course there is no SC school that thugs can graduate from. However, for example the phrase "awake SC pretender", refers to a Cyclops with a Blacksteel Tower, or some such thing. At a certain point in the game, he becomes just a poorly dressed thug, unless you upgrade his gear to enable him to fulfill SC status within the scope of the game.

To put it another way, all of your top end summons are merely thugs of varying caliber, until you send them to the tailor to get their SC suit. ;)

Re: Thug Commanders
 

Doesn't the Cyclops just attack with the fist? Isn't far better to have him dormant and wait for a AoE brand or even something less good? I can't imagine him going around punching to death indeps without getting swarmed with his big size.

Re: Thug Commanders
 

I haven't personally been able to figure out how an awake Cyclops is supposed to work. :p My best builds were asleep, with a rush to Cons4.....

However, I've seen some players who are much more married to awake pretenders describe such things. Remember, the Cyclops does have a Fear aura, so he doesn't have to punch all of them. ;)

Re: Thug Commanders
 

Supposedly the Oreiads make good thugs. I haven't really really played enough with EA Arco to give advice, but with a little gear the Awe should protect them from enough attacks to survive.

Re: Thug Commanders
 

I have heard that as well. Baalz, or someone else, did a couple of example equipment lists for them which looked quite impressive.

But the Arcos in general are very 'Thug poor' nations. In general they have no access to Death or Blood (LA Sybils have a chance at a little death but thats it) and no national summons that can be made in to Thugs. Nor recruitable commanders that are natural thugs - unless you consider the (EA) Oreiad as such.

Until you get to the Elemental Royalty and the other high end summons (Golems etc) there is only Troll Kings - which are expensive - and the rather moderate Sleeper chassis to turn to if you want a Thug.

Many of the original races are like this. There are lots of nice things about them but they have key weaknesses which need to be either be overcome with your Pretender design or your strategy. Some of the later designs seem to be strong everywhere ;)

If you want to try out Thug strategies then Arco is a poor choice. It isn't that Oreiads can't be made in to Thugs but they have so many other uses and make rather unusual ones anyway. If you are interested in trying out Thugs then there are much more suitable nations to practice with.

Any of the Giant Races provides you with recruitable Giant Commanders who have useful magic paths and / or self blessable Giant commanders (plenty of HPs & strength) which are well worth adding equipment to. Pythium, Marignon, most Monkey nations and the dedicated blood nations have many national summons which can be made in to very useful Thugs. Or simply choose a race with easy access to Blood or Death (which have recruitable Thugs as summons).

By the end game everyone should have access to SCs, but Thugs often come earlier and it matters which race you play.

Re: Thug Commanders
 

Awake Cyclops + Black Steel Tower Shield + Piercer + Earth 8 + Dom 8 = pretty invulnerable to light militia and the like. They have natural Fear 0, which, when combined with Awe 0, makes for a fairly deadly unit, vs the weaker independents-especially if they're leading your starting army.

Re: Thug Commanders
 

Dominion 9 gets you Awe 0. Dominion 8 gives nothing.

Re: Thug Commanders
 

Dom 9 then. I thought Dom 9 gave Awe 1 though, but I could be wrong.

Re: Thug Commanders
 

Yup.
Dominion 9 gives Awe 0
Dominion 10 gives Awe 2

And just for fun, A dominion 10 virtue has Awe 7:shock:

Re: Thug Commanders
 

That's a lot of Awe! :shock:<!-- / message -->

Re: Thug Commanders
 

And, how has this thread helped me to determine if my Pans can be good thugs? Seriosuly folks, if you can help me, I can help you.

Re: Thug Commanders
 

I've never heard of anyone using Pans as thugs, but if anyone would know, it would be Gandalf ('cause he's secretly a Pan).

Re: Thug Commanders
 

Pan Thugs:
Take an E9,N6 bless.Gorgon silly.
Give the pans shrouds of the battle saint.
bracer of defence
vine shield
a frost brand is best, but the poison stick could do

Ta Da, Pan thug
Buff as you get the research.
Summon earth power, ironskin, resist elements.

Add more items to make em tougher-
MAgic amulet, horned helmet, amulet of reinvigoration

Re: Thug Commanders
 

Yeah, that's about what I thought about for them. Thanks Rytek.

Re: Thug Commanders
 

My favourite thugs are the Kings of the deep with whatever gear is available and golems with stymphalian wings/boots of stone and dual shields. Big fan of harbringers too. Baalz eiru thugs are fantastic too. I also like to thug out knights of ulm and marignon just because it is thematic and fun to have heroes that are less "über".

Now is there any viable unmounted human thug chassis? I´d love to play a startegy based on ordinary human thugs. Packs of tough little heroes that you can really relate to.

Re: Thug Commanders
 

You don't even really need the bless for Pan thugs.
With Earth & Nature they can self buff Protection, regen & reinvig, so just equip appropriately.

For human thugs: Not really.
They're just too fragile. Buff them however you want, they've got few enough hp they'll still drop with one lucky hit.
Exceptions would be prophets in dominion or someone who gets one of the hp boosting Heroic abilities. Then they become marginal.

Re: Thug Commanders
 

I've had moderate success doing this as Ulm. (MA). Equipment is cheap enough to forge that it can be worth it.

Re: Thug Commanders
 

Those Marverni Boar Lord guys with the high Berserk you might be able to turn into very minor thugs. I'm not sure, but I think they're sacred, so with a good bless (Earth and Blood, with minor Fire, for instance) and a Medallion of Vengeance (Berserk, plus Blood Curse, plus MoV seems nice), you might make something of them. They wouldn't last real long, but they wouldn't be meant to-and they'd go out with a-literal-bang!

Re: Thug Commanders
 

You might try LA TC's battle mages, they are recruitable everywhere, rather tough, and have some interesting magic paths that allows for some creative combinations. They really need an earth bless though since they are old and come with some heavy innate gear. They certainly would not qualify as top-notch thugs, but with the right gear and spells, they would make tough little humans and quite thematic - the roving band of mystic master outlaws...

Re: Thug Commanders
 

Hoburgs actually make quite good thugs, if I remember correctly. Stunningly high defense and small size can protect them from pd adequately.

Re: Thug Commanders
 

Sleeper from Kingmaker. A thug, who with help from elephants, kills the harbinger and air elemental summoned by a mage not in the picture. Sleeper needs friends to kill stuff.

http://www.mediafire.com/imgbnc.php/...5dfce72c2g.jpg





Here is an SC from Fallacy:

http://www.mediafire.com/imgbnc.php/...51fe3a032g.jpg







Here is my pretender from Alpaca. This Gorgon is a SC.

http://www.mediafire.com/imgbnc.php/...4bc3160a2g.jpg

Re: Thug Commanders
 

Holy magic paths, Batman!

Re: Thug Commanders
 

That seraph is such a huge investment, is it worth it? I mean you could have 6 normal ones for that amount of astral gems. And what's with the huge hit points? Can you wish for that too?

Re: Thug Commanders
 

X, what turn did Fallacy go to? That seems like an incredible amount of investment in an SC - surprising you could get to that level in an MP game.

Re: Thug Commanders
 

Fallacy went to 108. I used the seraph to magic duel many of the ryleh starspawns, who had deadly communions. So yeah i thought it was worth it.

Basically that is what the seraph mainly did was magic duel s5 and s6 mages.

i would use the breath of winter chest piece when hunting tartarians. obviously if it had been killed it would have been a blow. but i used it judiciously. and it never hunted solo.

The Ryleh was a major enemy that game, and had little or no blood. Obviously investing so heavily in a SC against a blood race would not be wise, or necessary.

Re: Thug Commanders
 

This Seraph is absurd. It's wished for Magic Power more times than is feasible or wise. Extreme waste of resources, IMO.

Re: Thug Commanders
 

The short answer is no, no viable human thug chassis. They are just too fragile. I suppose if you wanted to mess around vs the AI you could do something with MA mans Wardens. Give them E9/NX bless, or a W9,E9,N4 bless. Group them with some warden troops and a friar and you have a nasty stealth raiding group. Add in some of those stealth mothers for protection buffs for added fun. Then you can really do some funky stuff. Try a warden with a serpant dagger, vine shield, Horned helmet, chi boots--all items that you have gem income for and at const level 2. If you get some earth gems you can add bracer of protection and girdle of might.

Re: Thug Commanders
 

I do not think there can be hard and fast rules for every situation. This game there were reasons for the insanely high magical paths-Ryleh. And there were reasons for making him insanely tough thug(i was outnumbered by gor tartarians by about 100).

In this case this thug was a difference maker in key wars that won me a 22 player game that had many good players in it. QM said it was a waste to give a gargoyle 2 air as well. But that gargoyle fought many a war and numerous battle and was a niche thug for me. And he was alive when the game ended.

There are also advantages to having an astral mage that can cast master enslave without a communion. When you are the attacker, it is nice to get your master enslave off 1st.

All those gems do you no good if you die. How many times does someone die in a game and give you hundreds of gems? So sure, i could have sat and wished for gems over and over. But I had plenty of gems. I needed things that could fight high level communions where master enslave and arcane domination were cast more than once during the battle. So there were actually very few troops of choice that I wanted to use.

There were also other Seraphs around. I wanted my seraph to be able to kill other seraphs, tartarians, and anything else that may cross its path-and it did. Including named horrors.

Re: Thug Commanders
 

You can also combine some "thuggish" human units with a more powerful SC as bodyguards. That's a bit more viable-although still not ideal, since the SC will be guarding and supporting the bodyguards as much as they are guarding and supporting the SC.

I made some mostly human units in Aksum that have a Deathform, in an effort to help extend human viability in the game: One turns into an etherial spirit, one turns into a were-hyena, and one turns into a zombie.

Maybe someday the berserker pelt will be modified to actually grant a second form to a human unit, in addition to berserking them? I've heard that it's not considered the best item in the world, but if it turned humans-maybe *only* humans?-into werewolves after they got killed for the first time, it would undoubtedly find a few more homes. Maybe a more powerful version might turn a human into a were bear or a were tiger (were moose?...how come we don't have any were meese in the game already?).

I don't think there are currently any forgeable items that grant shape-shifting capabilities, despite the prominence of thematic items (descriptions on units that change shape are often linked to items the unit possesses) that do so.

Another idea would be a high level forgeable item that turned a human into an Ettin as a death-form--like a weird alchemical Dr Jeckyl/Mr Hyde potion. This could possibly be an artifact?

Re: Thug Commanders
 

The Seraph actually did not have power wished for that much. Cannot recall if it was once or twice. It is sitting in dominion 10 with GOH up. That is why it has the high hps.