MoV usage
 

Does anyone have any tips or strategies regarding the use of Medallions of Vengeance? I just think that its a really cool piece of equipment.
I haven't actually tried anything yet, but OTOH it could be interesting as Pangaea to give a half dozen black harpies the MoVs and have them scripted to attack archers, nasty surprise for Caelum/Sauromatia/whoever uses lots of archers. Another thought is maybe giving them to those weird vampire dudes that Shinuyama get, so you could get some more bang for your buck when you use their aura. Plus I suppose if you really wanted to you could give them to vampire counts or whatever so you wouldn't lose anything but the gems.

Just brainstorming, hoping for some actually good tips.

Re: MoV usage
 

Experience says that Medallions are rather ineffective and generally not worth the cost. There's always some better strategy)

Re: MoV usage
 

They can be nice side items to certain units. Such as a scout, just in case he gets spotted. Particularly Pangaeas and Caelum scouts which can fly so they end up quickly near the enemy commanders. Kindof a kamikazi strategy for "in case you are caught".

Ive also tried it on some seducers when I find that Im failing often and ending up in one-on-one combats which I lose. It can help to keep the other equipment on the unit from falling into enemy hands.

I do wish they did more damage though.

Re: MoV usage
 

I've used them with solid success as Pangaea's harpies and attack archers. Fire gems aren't good for a whole lot, IMO, and its a good a use as any. One tool is using them to attack near where an enemy has been putting his mages- with luck a few will explode, and 3 gems is a reasonable price to blow up a mage or two.

Re: MoV usage
 

A terriffic way to use them, IMHO, is with EA Abyssia, combined with a Forge Lord Pretender. Don't necessarily bother committing your Pretender to making them (you can though), but do forge lots of dwarf hammers, and use them to forge the medallions. Put them on your flying demonbred commanders (they're non-Capital), and combine them with a Salamander army. The Sallys attack the front lines of the enemies-keeping them distracted-while the Demonbreds parashoot into the rear. With their double poison attacks, combined with the medallions, that gives you 2 damage types to really bring on the pain, especially since resistance to *both* Fire and Poison is one of the rarest combinations, since Fire and Nature paths tend to be inimical. It's an easy, cheap way to get 2 damage types on a single unit. It's not ideal, because you're already dishing out Fire damage, but it does force your enemy to think a lot more about resistance than just Fire.

Re: MoV usage
 

Don't demonbreds cost a lot? I havent played aby in a long time but iirc they were at the very least 100+ gold. Using an expensive unit like this doesnt seem like the best applciation of resources...

Re: MoV usage
 

EA Abysia's Demonbred are capitol only, IIRC. Also they are quite expensive. But, on the other hand, assassins are sure to die eventually, so why not equip them with a "contingency item."

Re: MoV usage
 

In a lot of cases though, cheap basic assassins could be good with one of these.

Though unfortunately, I'd say that losses of disposable assassins that I've seen have been more by fleeing than by death. And they aren't very gem effective if they run away without blowing up.

Re: MoV usage
 

Well, if they *are* capital only, then it's a real shame, since they're one of the best ways Abyssia has of doing alternate forms of damage from Fire. Even so, there's no reason not to slap a MoV on them.

Re: MoV usage
 

I use MoV only for perfect-eqiped assasins - when enemy catch and kill them, medallion will destroy equipment and add some damage (it may be lethal, why not to try)
I see no use for MoV for other commanders - free slots are useful for many necessary things

Re: MoV usage
 

If they're fleeing on the first serious wound, perhaps one could 'prime' the assassin with a disease-causing item (and that item can go back in the lab the turn after application), so the first wound would make him explode rather than flee.

Harpy / Raptor bombers would seem to be an obvious use. I suppose they'd be marginally useful on an assassin-bait decoy, if the assassin were at least somewhat expensive.

Re: MoV usage
 

What about a combination MoV and slave collar? Assassin go boom, with a chance to feeblemind. That would solve the fleeing problem too, I assume.

Re: MoV usage
 

Hmmm not bad. I may have to try that.

Re: MoV usage
 

I'd never thought of using the MoV with an assasin, thats pretty cool. Couldn't it be useful to just add a slave collar to any flying bombers? IIRC there's some mechanic that can prevent them from flying all the way to the rear where they would do the most damage. Instead they just fly into the mass of the enemy's main troops, I think it had something to do with a morale check which the Slave Collar would solve.

Re: MoV usage
 

Crevan has a good point and agood idea there.

I don't think a strat based on wasting a gem costing item can be that usefull very often. For the same number of gems you could cast a ew powerfull spells which would probably have better effect. Or forge a weapon which might kill more pplz in the end on a well equipped thug or SC etc etc

I prefer not to waste my gems (or better.. gems get wasted enough even if I don't try it that strats based on wasting gems don't seem a very good idea)

Re: MoV usage
 

Maybe its because I tend to play more solo games than mp games, but Ive never been much of a spreadsheet strategist. This conversation sounds fun, and thats good enough for me. :)

Re: MoV usage
 

It's not so much that everyone's going to run out and use MoVs, for me, as it is the possibility of equipping a winged, sacred, cheap, non-capital assassin on a nation, someday, to take advantage of this sort of thing.

I admit it's a stretch, but just sitting here thinking about it, I've already got another nation idea:

Say if you had a nation of pure demons, with lots of Fire and Blood, some Earth, maybe minor Astral and Death, and good forging, but weak troops. You could call it "Dis: The Forges of Hell". And it would basically be a Nation with strong PD but weak troops and no starting army (Imps, Soulless as recruits, Capital-only Devils, maybe a few others, with a collection of interesting, but not overpowered Commanders, all expensive), set up to do diplomacy in MP (it can easily forge the various infernal items, like Lifelong Protection and Hellsword, and then trade them to other Nations, which it needs to do, because it's gem-poor, and very weak-but very useful as an ally-in the Early Game). Eventually it would get really powerful summons, but it would take longer to get them than other Nations.

So sometimes the ideas have their usefulness in just leading to other ideas.

Re: MoV usage
 

Well, with a hammer the Medallion is 3 F gems. So, your "few powerful spells" must certainly be battlefield spells, which definitely come with their own pros and cons. I think the concept of the assassin with the MoV is not that they are a cruise missile, but rather that they MAY succeed in their assassination, but if they fail, they may kill their target anyways. In many cases, 3F is well worth killing an enemy mage. And, of course, if you want to actually damage an army outside of battle, THOSE spells are very costly, and have no guarantee of hitting commanders at all.

I like the idea of the added Slave Collar. I never thought to put one on an assassin, but it's a very clever use for what normally seems like sort of a joke item. :p

Re: MoV usage
 

I like that concept. Though with a weak army, I am not sure about the designation of "gem-poor". I think if they are intended to use forging as diplomatic fodder, it would give them a better niche if they were in fact the best forging nation out of the gate - with a unit that had a forge bonus, and randoms that could potentially give 2 in anything but Nature (seems wrong :p). And then supplement that forging/searing ability with a fairly varied capital gem income. BUT, make them be fairly poor researchers. They're doers, not thinkers - but they won't get too far without doing a LOT of thinking, to get to their top end summons (which could be scattered among a few different schools of magic).

Re: MoV usage
 

Well, they need to get up the Construction tree to forge trade goodies, so I was thinking that's where their summons would be--maybe summons at Construction 5, 7, 9, and 10? I'm thinking their summons would be of the "Infernal Machine" variety. They'd maybe get some National spells in other paths, too.

And it's thematic that "thinking demons" would be good researchers. I don't mind them having access to lots of spells. As far as gems, they could get some, but I was hoping they'd trade for them, or have to expand to get them.

They're very reminiscent of Abyssia as it is, and taking gems away makes them different. Instead of gems, maybe a gold boost? That way, they could buy more PD and potentially trade gold for gems. And they wouldn't have any good blood-dowsers, just blood mages.

I wouldn't make them the strongest forgers in the game, just the strongest at the blood-related items they can build. I wouldn't give them *any* Air, Nature, or Water, because they're meant to be specialized-Air would make it too easy to forge feathers anyway, and I don't want their research getting completely out of control. I'd probably make their access to Fire limited too, in that it would be very common, but very weak (Every mage would have Fire 1, few would have Fire 2, none would have Fire 3), again to differentiate them somewhat from Abyssia.

Their PD would be terrific, maybe the strongest in the game (gargoyles, anyone?), so no starting army. Atleast not one that can be used to expand--I'd probably give them an immobile rush-stopper, like Aksum has. They'd still have recruitables, just not great ones, so they'll eventually expand.

Re: MoV usage
 

Thing is, MoV is just as efficient as big battlefield spells for many nations. Fire gems don't have a huge number of battlefield spell uses (fire storm, flame storm, and living fire are the only 3 I can think of), all of which require high fire paths and very high research. Medallion of vengeance doesn't cost anymore, and while it will often deal less damage, does NOT commit a high level fire mage (which you might not even have, for most nations).

Re: MoV usage
 

Erm...flaming arrows, anyone? Also Prison of Fire (not BF wide, but high AoE)

Re: MoV usage
 

Flaming arrows is an f4 spell, and is less functional for nations that aren't archer heavy, or don't have f2+ mages. MoV can be used if you have an f1 mage.

Re: MoV usage
 

Wicked thought occured to me... how does MoV work with Phoenix Pyre? :)

Re: MoV usage
 

I'm sure this has been said multiple times in this thread, but since it's here I'll say it myself: MoV is garbage. The effect is so craptacular and unpredictable and the cost so high (a mage turn, fire gems, a commander) that even for fun it's pretty much a 'pfft' rather than a 'boom'.

Re: MoV usage
 

I agree with Sombre.

Re: MoV usage
 

Ok. Again.
My favorite assasin, can kill any commander without a scratch: Heliophagus with Black hearth. Equip: pair of Picas/Procus axes, Horror Helmet, Ethereal cloak, Brimbstone Boots. If he`ll fail to assasinate or just trapped with PD, all his equipment will be captured. I`m better forge MoV - and all equip will be destroyed
Second - Heliophagus is flying unit, so he`ll attack close to enemy. And if he die, blast of MoV will damage enemy...maybe kill, maybe not, but if there`s a chance - I`ll bet!

Re: MoV usage
 

Crevan, where did you get this idea? While it might seem "realistic" it doesn't apply to dom3. Your equipment will be dropped when your unit dies - the game doesnt care at all if you have a MoV equipped.

Re: MoV usage
 

Really? :eek: Then I`m the biggest fool there!!!
Damn, damn, and damn again. Why nobody can translate Dominions` manuals into good russian! It`s not first time I fail just because of my bad english. And even he`ll be good - where I can find all necessary info if ALL our community is about 20-30 men, and I`m one of the best with all my mistakes and kid`errors
:cold:

Anybody know, where I can find good manual? I know, it MUST be, I just need to find!

Re: MoV usage
 

Ah, dont be so hard on yourself. I doubt if I looked through the manual (i'm a native english speaker) that it would say anything about how the Medallion of Vengeance actually works. I speak only from experience - I have never seen an effect in dominions that destroys items. There are mechanics for picking up / losing items after a battle, but no actual in-game effect which explicitly destroys them.

Re: MoV usage
 

If MoV destroyed items, it *would* be more useful, so that's-if unintentional-a good suggestion, Crevan.

The Manual was written by a guy (Bruce Geryk) with a lot of experience writing manuals for other games, but limited experience playing Dominions, which shows, because the author really struggles with Dominion concepts. Doesn't do a bad job, really, but I'd hate to have to suffer through an MP game, if all my knowledge of how things work came from the Manual. I also feel it could have been written in a way that made you more excited about actually *playing* the game. Mr Geryk admits that he's not a mythology expert, and that shows too.

Re: MoV usage
 

I think he did an encomiable work - the manual is enjoyable to read, gives many nice suggestions and explanations, and the Grimoire was a great idea. Obviously for you experts some wider explanation of the bare maths of the mechanic would have been welcome too ^_^

Re: MoV usage
 

I found it a little dry. Again, I'm not blaming him, he's just not that familiar with mythology, and with another genre, even typical fantasy, it would have been fine. Mythology's just a little too *big* of a subject for the way the manual was presented, to do the game justice. And the organization of references isn't optimal.

Re: MoV usage
 

About game mechanics...
Amulet of Vengeance not just explodes, looks like it explodes with his owner. Or smth else - but before game engine perform check for pick-unpick artefacts
It needs more check...now looks like it works correct. Yesterday night damn Mictlans (friend) kills one of my Seraphs with Sword of Justice - and I`ll craft this sword next turn. Seraph was equiped with MoV (all my heroes with perfect artefacts are still equiped with "self-destructing mechanism")
Maybe enemy just fail to pick up artefact... Need to check manually. I`ll try to do it in some days

Re: MoV usage
 

I'd be interested to know how that works. On a similar note, I don't seem to remember ever getting loot from Disintegrated enemy commanders either (definitely could be remembering wrong though).

Are there ways to destroy equipment on the battlefield?

Re: MoV usage
 

If disintegration and MoV really destroy the equipment, I would find it a very nice touch :)

Re: MoV usage
 

Since we were randomly talking about the manual - I don't like the strategy sections in there. Geryk or whoever doesn't know what they're talking about in regards to that, so they shouldn't be saying anything. I'd rather it wasn't in the manual at all if it isn't done properly.

Re: MoV usage
 

Mmh. I think you're reading it with too much the eyes of the expert, Sombre. ;) I think the "strategy" section (like all the manual) is to give a grasp of the basics to the newcomers (like me), let them understand generally how the game works, how the stats are good for what, how expanding and being unpredictable helps, etc.

You need to get those things when you start. They are too useful just to skip them. Later after a couple of games or so you come to the forum and here is the real "manual" for everybody which helps understanding the real strategy and mechanic and corrects some of the manual's errors. :p If they were to add a "great" strategy section to the manual, it would have been thousands of pages IMHO :D

Re: MoV usage
 

I never get loot after using Claws of Cocytos - this spell banish enemy into another realm. Transformation (change shape of enemy into pig or another animal) destroys items in slots, which lost after transform (feet, hands, body). I don`t know, are there another ways...

Re: MoV usage
 

Transformation, the ritual, doesn't destroy items unless the mage dies (10% chance or so). They'll end up in your lab if there's space available.

However you mentioned using it on enemies; perhaps you meant Polymorph? I haven't had a chance to use that one yet, so I'm not sure how it works.

Re: MoV usage
 

Has anyone actually checked what happens when you combine
MOV with Phoenix?

Re: MoV usage
 

My vague recollection is that most of the Strategy section was derived from comments and suggestions from the original beta testers.

Re: MoV usage
 

I think they were perfect. Good enough to give hints to a newbie but not so perfect that soon he wont feel he can come up with something better. Varied enough to show the wide variety in the game, and tries to make use of each nations special abilities. It pulls players up the ladder, without discouraging them by laying out the "perfect answers" for beating the game (as if there actually were any).

Personally, I feel that they were one of the many great examples of why you should not have game docs written by experts. It was written by someone who was learning the game, and written for people who were learning the game.

Re: MoV usage
 

My issues with the manual weren't with the game specific content-those were fine, and I didn't mind the strategy guide. I didn't use it a whole lot, but it gave my an introduction to each Nation. I don't deny that Mr Geryk knows how to write a manual, and he did do a professional job.

What I didn't like was that the manual wasn't written in a way that made me want to play the game, or even want to spend enough time with the manual to find the answer to a problem.

Mr Geryk may have been learning the game along with the rest of us, but it didn't seem like an activity he particularly enjoyed, or a genre he was fond of. It was a passable job-and actually, I consider the strategic section a highlight-but I've read manuals that it was fun to read, and this manual just wasn't.