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-   -   Trample balance discussion (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=40724)

Endoperez October 2nd, 2008 03:18 AM

Trample balance discussion
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Kristoffer O (Post 641994)
Hinnom will likely be nerfed with next patch.
- Chariot nerf (possibly size, possibly something else that might affect other tramplers as well)

Poor Kristoffer, he mentions something offhand and a discussion explodes into being. Because the other thread is about Hinnom, I hope to take the discussion here.

I hope I didn't miss anything major.


Quote:

Originally Posted by llamabeast (Post 641996)
Nerfing tramplers in general would be great, in my opinion. Elephants have always been a bit crazy.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Psycho (Post 642003)
I feel that nerfing elephants would nerf nations which are weak as it is like Caelum or Arco


Quote:

Originally Posted by Xietor (Post 642006)
What would la arcos do without elephants? my god(: No national summons. In kingmaker i am being raided by angels(la marignon), and Bandar Log's national summons. Take away elephants then make those sirrush cost water gems or something besides s gems, or give them some anti thug ability(an affliction causing attack, arm loss or something).


Quote:

Originally Posted by Sombre (Post 642010)
I'd quite like to see def stat (not including parry from shield) have more of an impact on trampling. That way tramplers would be a bit worse and light infantry with virtually no armour, plus light cavlary, would be a lot better.


Quote:

Originally Posted by DonCorazon (Post 642014)
I'd prefer to see tramplers not get nerfed. They give some otherwise weak early game nations a nice boost. And they always have the risk of trampling their own troops and have some significant morale issues that can be exploited.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Ironhawk (Post 642031)
Quote:

Originally Posted by AreaOfEffect (Post 642011)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Xietor (Post 642006)
What would la arcos do without elephants?

A resource increase, though a restriction for early-game expansion, is not a mid-game or late-game restriction. Personally I care more about the Hinnom chariots then I do about the elephants.

What has always balanced trampling units is the fact that when they rout, they kill your own men, instead of the enemy. Thats the key.

But the way things are right now, tramplers generally have too high hp and prot to be really risky to use in combat. Particularly if you balance thier morale by adding some slow, good morale troops to thier squad. If we just nerf thier prot and hp stats somewhat and make them vulnerable (not totally helpless, mind you!) to the relatively moderate attacks of a mundane army, then you will take tramplers back from being a no-brainer to a really interesting and risky decision.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Meglobob (Post 642038)
Chariot nerf - Just increase resources to decrease early numbers. They are easily dealt with later.


General trampler nerf - Please don't. It will effect alot of nations, all Caelum/Arco/Monkey nations and weaken them considerably. Elephants/Mammoths are very good as a alternative strategy to a bless and allow nice scales. After turn 20'ish elephants/mammoths are fairly useless, indeed they are expansive to maintain, so should be killed off, perhaps keep a small force to distract the enemy perhaps.


Quote:

Originally Posted by OmikronWarrior (Post 642056)
On the question of Tramplers, I always beleived the best way to "nerf" them would be force repel checks on sufficiently long weapons (say 12 length of weapons in the square). They'd still be fine for expansion, but would give players a non-magic option for countering them with out lots of mages.


Personally, I'd like to see some way for e.g. MA Ulm to use either units or summons to have a chance against an elephant horde. Using Bonds of Fire or other spells is fine as such, but it'd be nice to have an alternate option.

Some kind of repel mechanic might work, but it shouldn't be too powerful. Perhaps ability to deal 1 point of damage to the trampler if the trample is repelled?

Another way to nerf trample would be to change all recruitable tramplers to size 5. This would lower the damage they deal and allow Drakes and other size 5 summons to stop them.

Third change I once thought was a good idea would be to make trampling big units slow take more action points than trampling small ones. It would be nice if few size 5 Fire Drakes or whatever among your infantry would slow the elephants considerably.

Sombre October 2nd, 2008 04:30 AM

Re: Trample balance discussion
 
Drakes are size 5? Wow. That's crazy.

How big a drake knights for Agartha?

HoneyBadger October 2nd, 2008 04:38 AM

Re: Trample balance discussion
 
I like elephants being size 6. I don't see drakes being so big that they can't be trampled. The average size of an Indian elephant is 10 feet tall, 18 feet long, weighing maybe 15,000lbs. That's roughly the same mass as an average Tyrannosaurus Rex.

From their pictures and their ability to dish out damage, I'd give a very rough, uneducated, high estimate of average earth drake size at 6 feet at the shoulder, 21 feet long, 2000 lbs tops-and that's still gigantic for a predator, especially one that lives entirely on land (tigers rarely get to be 700lbs, and even the largest crocodiles don't get over 3000lbs).

If it were up to me, sizes in the game would run from 1-12, and they'd be graduated, because there's not enough differentiation between sizes in the game, with only 6 incremental designations-30 enormous (400lb) human professional linebackers wouldn't have the same mass as a single healthy adult elephant, and they're still size 2, compared to size 6. And there are creatures in the game that are certainly larger than elephants-Dagon for instance, and the Sphinx.

The easiest solution to elephant rushes would be to provide a generic, 0 level Construction summon that simply placed a stationary, immobile, size 6 unit on the battlefield. It would cost maybe 1 Earth gem a piece, and be summoned individually, and you'd need several to stop elephant rushes. You couldn't move them around, and they'd be vulnerable to fire, but they'd stop elephants for a long time, until the elephants pulled them apart with their trunks, or your other units got to them. The balance would be nice, since they'd be non-teleport, so you'd have to spend a minimum of 6-15 Earth gems a Province, each Province, and all that mage time, just to protect against Elephants.

Endoperez October 2nd, 2008 05:03 AM

Re: Trample balance discussion
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Sombre (Post 642170)
Drakes are size 5? Wow. That's crazy.

How big a drake knights for Agartha?

I could be wrong. I remember testing size 5 elephants against size 5 drakes, but perhaps I modded both (instead of just the elephants).

Rytek October 2nd, 2008 05:09 AM

Re: Trample balance discussion
 
Make Javelines do X3 damage to Elephants.
I just read an interesting history where Ceaser extenively trained his 3rd legion to deal with elephants by using Javelins. he placed the 3rd legion on both flanks of his army where normally elephants would line up against him. Sure enough the 3rd legion routed the 80 african elephants arrayed on the flanks using their Javelins.No magic needed.

HoneyBadger October 2nd, 2008 06:39 AM

Re: Trample balance discussion
 
That's training, it's not a magical property that all javelins (or javelineers) have, so it's circumstantial-for that matter, elephant plate barding exists, and 80 plate-barded elephants would certainly have shrugged off most of Caesar's iron javelins.

Zeldor October 2nd, 2008 06:48 AM

Re: Trample balance discussion
 
Sombre:

Size 4 only.

Endoperez:

The real problem with tramplers is that you usually need a lot of mage power to stop them. And killing them is even harder. And nations that have tramplers available usually can make the use of research lead they can gain, when enemy uses mages to stop elephants. And they can also use their mages to make that tramplers even more powerful [ethereality, beat that!] to boost tramplers in many ways.

Gandalf Parker October 2nd, 2008 09:04 AM

Re: Trample balance discussion
 
For some reason I seem to find that slingers do well against elephants. Maybe its a wrong impression but I still fall back to it whenever Im faced with elephants. Or maybe its just because I can put alot of shots in the air cheaply with some chance to do damage and cause a rout.

archaeolept October 2nd, 2008 10:07 AM

Re: Trample balance discussion
 
i've seen many elephants. they would have difficulty trampling even a small riding drake :)

probably shouldn't be size 6

Zeldor October 2nd, 2008 10:13 AM

Re: Trample balance discussion
 
There are way too many size6 creatures. Elephants, Golems, Dragons, Juggernauts, they should have some size difference.

llamabeast October 2nd, 2008 10:13 AM

Re: Trample balance discussion
 
Elephants are huge. They are bigger than horses, and dogs. They're bigger than camels. Hell, I could go on listing animals they're bigger than. They're definitely pretty big.

Sombre October 2nd, 2008 10:19 AM

Re: Trample balance discussion
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Gandalf Parker (Post 642219)
For some reason I seem to find that slingers do well against elephants. Maybe its a wrong impression but I still fall back to it whenever Im faced with elephants. Or maybe its just because I can put alot of shots in the air cheaply with some chance to do damage and cause a rout.

Well you're talking about SP. I don't think anyone is too worried about the power of elephants in SP. Though if you can't resist building them yourself they might make winning very boring, because the AI has absolutely no chance against them.

I wouldn't be against elephants being size 5 and mammoths 6. There are certainly numerous dom3 creatures larger than elephants, like the machaka fetish pretender for instance.

I think there are a lot of creatures with weird sizing in dom3 though. Krakens have a graphic that's like size 3 or 4 in size, but they're size 6 iirc.

Epaminondas October 2nd, 2008 10:23 AM

Re: Trample balance discussion
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Sombre (Post 642238)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Gandalf Parker (Post 642219)
For some reason I seem to find that slingers do well against elephants. Maybe its a wrong impression but I still fall back to it whenever Im faced with elephants. Or maybe its just because I can put alot of shots in the air cheaply with some chance to do damage and cause a rout.

Well you're talking about SP. I don't think anyone is too worried about the power of elephants in SP. Though if you can't resist building them yourself they might make winning very boring, because the AI has absolutely no chance against them.

I wouldn't be against elephants being size 5 and mammoths 6. There are certainly numerous dom3 creatures larger than elephants, like the machaka fetish pretender for instance.

I think there are a lot of creatures with weird sizing in dom3 though. Krakens have a graphic that's like size 3 or 4 in size, but they're size 6 iirc.

Hmmm, so graphics size is not automatically altered when you mod a unit size? I thought it did.

I also agree with those who feel Elephants should not be size 6. I can't imagine them being bigger than Niefel Giants (size 5)! :)

DonCorazon October 2nd, 2008 11:26 AM

Re: Trample balance discussion
 
Looking at trample in the grand scheme of things, I don't see nations with elephants really dominating the Victorious Nations record. In fact, when it comes to Arcos and the Bandar nations, they rarely appear, so I have difficulty understanding the motivation for changing a core mechanic that would hurt nations that already struggle. Not to take the thread off topic, but if we were focused on balance then I'd say Pythium's hydras are more of an overpowered unit for what they cost in gold and resources and looking at the big picture of national summons. My point is, yes elephants are powerful, but they provide a slight edge for nations that are in need of it, and any apparent imbalance does not seem to be reflected in the elephant nations dominating games.

llamabeast October 2nd, 2008 11:52 AM

Re: Trample balance discussion
 
I think they're just not very fun to fight. Unless you can muster paralyze or something, you're basically stuffed. I've always found them to be quite unfun for that reason.

Xietor October 2nd, 2008 12:23 PM

Re: Trample balance discussion
 
Elephants are not supposed to be "fun" to fight. If you read about historical accounts of their use in Ancient Greek times, they were a terror in battles. While Lord of the Rings battle scenes has them too big, it actually may not exaggerate the terror they cause even battle hardened troops.

Given these accounts it would be justified to give them fear. Obviously that would not be good for balance. But arcos needs its elephants. I challenge someone to play ma or la arcos and not use elephants.

If elephants are nerfed, arcos needs a better sacred. maybe a chariot with good armor, attack, and defense that does not trample. And the national summon cannot use s gems. arcos heart and soul is its s gems. a sirrush either has to be so good it is like an abomination, or it needs to cost n gems. As it is they are useless as a 10s item.

maybe if you could get 5 of them for 10s, and move them down the tree a bit. But at 10s a piece they might as well cost a 100s a piece. no one in their right mind would buy one.

Too many arcos units use spears. thematic yes. But maybe a sacred unit with a sword.
Greeks knew what swords were you know. And swords do more dmage. and 25 gold for a heart companion? they are not as good as the 15 gold units which are all i buy when i have the gold and resources.

Now this thread is not about arcos., but that is the nation most hurt by an elephant nerf. bandar log has strong nationals and good sacreds, and caelum gets cold bonus
and better attack mages.

Edratman October 2nd, 2008 12:32 PM

Re: Trample balance discussion
 
How about a new defensive formation, the square? If could have all the historical strengths and weakness of squares: great at repelling, but very vulnerable to ranged fire.

Agema October 2nd, 2008 12:54 PM

Re: Trample balance discussion
 
Firstly, just because something is bigger doesn't necessarily mean it needs to be a size bigger. A mammoth may be bigger than an elephant, but what would make a size difference is whether the mammoth has the bulk to knock an elephant out of the way. I'd suggest possibly not - a 6 foot tall man cannot reliably just knock a 5 foot tall man out of his way.

Secondly, why shouldn't Elephants be bigger than Niefel Giants? I could suggest even if a Niefel Giant were taller, it still might not have even close to the same mass as they're much thinner. Generally, it's pretty pointless second-guessing the size of many mythological creatures. Although the Egyptians made a really big sphinx statue, the sphinx was a winged lion with a human head, from which we could assume a sphinx was, well, about lion-sized. Just because there's a 100+ foot-high statue of Jesus in Rio it doesn't mean we think Jesus was 100 feet tall. Similarly, dragons vary enormously in myths. Maybe in Dominions they really are about the size of an Elephant or mammoth.

Sombre October 2nd, 2008 01:35 PM

Re: Trample balance discussion
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Xietor (Post 642262)
bandar log has strong nationals

What? No it doesn't.

Agema: Completely ignoring graphics when it comes to the size of units is counter-intuitive and silly. They are there for a reason.

Adept October 2nd, 2008 01:47 PM

Re: Trample balance discussion
 
My only beefs with Trample are the automatic 1 point of damage, and the fact that one target can be trampled several times in a single turn.

Without those, I'd be quite happy. I'd still like to see my Dagon actually use the ice swords I give him too, instead of just using them to parry and fight other siz 6 critters.

Zeldor October 2nd, 2008 02:20 PM

Re: Trample balance discussion
 
Xietor:

Yeah, and I play with LA Agartha. Some people try to play with Marverni or MA Agartha. They have no elephants. They sacreds are a joke. They have no cheap infantry to expand. Their crossbowmen have lame precision and need flaming arrows to be effective. And they all get owned by elephants.

Xietor October 2nd, 2008 03:48 PM

Re: Trample balance discussion
 
Bandar Log does not have good national troops?

Are you mad? Or have you just never played Bandar Log? Do you know what a Mandaha is? It is one of the best summons in the game. I have spent 100s gems wishing for them before. And they have many many other less expensive but very good national summons.

I would check out Baalz guide to Bandar Log as he touches on most of them.

HoneyBadger October 2nd, 2008 04:48 PM

Re: Trample balance discussion
 
Six sizes just aren't enough.

Agema: you're missing the point that the Sphinx in the game *is* just a statue. That's why it can't move. If it was a lion with wings, then yes, winged-lion-size all the way.

Golems should really just be human-sized, maybe size 3 at the most--if you're basing them on the Golem of Prague. The other critters mentioned, Dragons and Juggernauts, really should be as large as an elephant. 1: because Dragons *carried off and ate* elephants-so did Rocs, only Rocs did it in the AIR. And making the Juggernaut anything less than size 6 kindof seems anticlimactic. Even the guy who played him in the X-men movie was about a size 4 or so :p

And Jesus *was* a hundred feet tall, haven't you ever read the Bible???

And the Ancient Kraken, beloved though he is by me, could use a makeover. It's a fun graphic, but it's starting to show it's age-as in, it would go great as a Pretender for a "Plan 9 from Outer Space" Nation. :)

Sombre October 2nd, 2008 05:11 PM

Re: Trample balance discussion
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Xietor (Post 642337)
Are you mad? Or have you just never played Bandar Log? Do you know what a Mandaha is? It is one of the best summons in the game. I have spent 100s gems wishing for them before. And they have many many other less expensive but very good national summons.

I would check out Baalz guide to Bandar Log as he touches on most of them.

That's a national summon and a commander/mage/SC, not a troop by any definition. As for the troop summons, you even refer to them in the post I quote as national summons.

If you aren't claiming that BL's recruitable troops are strong then I'm not disagreeing with you. No need to act like an *******.

Xietor October 2nd, 2008 05:16 PM

Re: Trample balance discussion
 
Oh sorry then, we are talking 2 different things. They have very powerful national summons.

Their castle bought troops are good as well. their sacreds put heart companions to shame. And cost less gold and resources. And bandar log gets 80 free design points(2 heat).

My only point, perhaps poorly made, is a nerf to elephants would imo adversely affect arcos the most.

lch October 2nd, 2008 05:17 PM

Re: Trample balance discussion
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by llamabeast (Post 642236)
Hell, I could go on listing animals they're bigger than. They're definitely pretty big.

For example bats and south american mammals. I'm pretty sure you know a couple. :smirk:

Sombre October 2nd, 2008 05:26 PM

Re: Trample balance discussion
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Xietor (Post 642365)
There castle bought troops are good as well. their sacreds put heart companions to shame.

You've said a couple of times how bad they are.

But I remember you saying a while back that MA Arco was one of the better nations precisely because they have heart companions.

Have you just changed your mind, or am I misremembering?

Xietor October 2nd, 2008 05:51 PM

Re: Trample balance discussion
 
I think i once said Heart Companions can be good with an f9e4 bless. And if they got design points like Bandar Log or caelum, perhaps arcos could afford a bless. But they cant.

That conversation was in the context of what could kill vans prenerf. and people were throwing out various ideas. Heart Companions with a bless was mine. If I am not mistaken Tuidy, who never lets anything lie without a test, proved me wrong. And they turned out to be inferior even with a f9e4 bless. Shrug.

JimMorrison October 2nd, 2008 06:39 PM

Re: Trample balance discussion
 
LOUD NOISES!


I agree that 6 sizes are a bit restrictive in gradation. Though it does seem as if the best way to tune the power of recruitable tramplers, is a size reduction of any trampler that is size 6 currently, down to size 5. Also, perhaps a small increase in resource cost, to slow down availability.

Though ultimately, I think the main problem is just Hinnom. They simply have so many strengths, that the chariots really stick out as unnecessary in general.

Gandalf Parker October 2nd, 2008 07:24 PM

Re: Trample balance discussion
 
Why is six sizes too restrictive? Its not as if a slight difference in size will allow one unit to trample the other. There has to be a really large difference. Any size can have many units of many different sizes but for trample the only thing that needs to be reflected by two sizes in Dom is a really large difference. Trample isnt the same as just being able to roll over a creature.

K October 2nd, 2008 07:25 PM

Re: Trample balance discussion
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by llamabeast (Post 642257)
I think they're just not very fun to fight. Unless you can muster paralyze or something, you're basically stuffed. I've always found them to be quite unfun for that reason.

Really? I've always found them super fun to fight because once they break they take out the enemy army/mages.

I mean, regular elephants only need to be countered with archers of Fire Large Monster and chaff (like PD) to die for the cause, while super armored elephants need something more exotic to get them to flee.

Blessed troops will do, but I favor the Water bless for it's high defense and additional attacks.

I suppose most people default to magery, but it seems a waste for units that break spectacularly with minimal damage.

JimMorrison October 2nd, 2008 09:01 PM

Re: Trample balance discussion
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Gandalf Parker (Post 642400)
Why is six sizes too restrictive? Its not as if a slight difference in size will allow one unit to trample the other. There has to be a really large difference. Any size can have many units of many different sizes but for trample the only thing that needs to be reflected by two sizes in Dom is a really large difference. Trample isnt the same as just being able to roll over a creature.

I could write several pages on why 6 sizes is insufficient to encompass the range of size among combat-worthy creatures in a (real or) mythical world.

I will sum it up thusly - you can easily fit more than 3 combat functional people in the space that an elephant fills.

I can go into much greater detail if you like, but I think that unless that point can be adequately discounted, then the premise stands.


(EDIT- Bear in mind, the size mechanic impact many other impacts of the game besides trampling, personally I think something like a range from 2-10 would provide greater functionality.)

HoneyBadger October 2nd, 2008 09:51 PM

Re: Trample balance discussion
 
If it were up to me, sizes in the game would range from 1 to 12, and combat squares would hold 64 spaces. The sizes themselves wouldn't correspond exactly to their numerical order-while size 1 would equal 1 space, size 12 wouldn't equal 12 spaces on a square. Instead, they'd have these values:

(Size)=(Spaces occupied).
1=1 (dragonfly, Aboleth Polyp.)
2=2 (hoburg, goblin, imp)
3=3 (human sized)
4=4 (shambler, troll, Warhammer ogre)
5=6 (Jotun, unridden horse, shark, Living Pillar, giant eagle)
6=8 (heavy calvalry, unridden moose, unridden drake)
7=12 (Niefel sized, moose + troll rider)
8=16 (Basalt King, Cyclops)
9=24 (monster fish, Aboleth, Titan)
10=36 (elephant, mammoth, earth mother, Aboleth Mind-lord)
11=48 (Dagon, Baluchitherium, Colossal Fetish, Ziz, dragon)
12=64 (filling an entire square: Ancient Kraken, Sphinx, Asp turtle, whale, larger dinosaurs)

JimMorrison October 2nd, 2008 10:45 PM

Re: Trample balance discussion
 
So ummmm. You could fit 21 humans in a square, or....? :shock:

HoneyBadger October 3rd, 2008 12:05 AM

Re: Trample balance discussion
 
Yep, exactly.

I said 12 sizes was a good idea, I never suggested it wouldn't dramatically alter combat in Dominions.

Endoperez October 3rd, 2008 01:25 AM

Re: Trample balance discussion
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JimMorrison (Post 642394)
LOUD NOISES!

Oh, that reminds me. Elephants used to have a really, REALLY annoying sound. Then Ballbarian saved our ears with his Mod Sound Pack. :up::up:

HoneyBadger October 3rd, 2008 01:56 AM

Re: Trample balance discussion
 
Yeah, now they play the 'Dukes of Hazard' car horn, it's great!

Agema October 3rd, 2008 10:12 AM

Re: Trample balance discussion
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Sombre (Post 642296)
Agema: Completely ignoring graphics when it comes to the size of units is counter-intuitive and silly. They are there for a reason.

No. It's the size stat that is there for a reason. The reason for the graphics is they make everything look prettier: you could do the battles with ASCII symbols representing everything (like Nethack) and get as much information out of it. Similarly WRT the sphinx, I know it's a statue in-game. My point is that the Egypt statue is not reflective of what sphinx has to be: there are statues and bas-reliefs of sphinxes from India to Europe, many (all?) of which are much smaller.

What I'm getting at is that I think people are applying too much logic and reality to it all. It's a game. It's about the interplay between various statistics, attributes and effects, where the designers put a lot of time and effort into making it work. Hence if elephants should be nerfed to size 5 you should make the case with whether they are unbalanced or not.

When you start basing arguments on the fact you can fit more than 3 humans into the area an elephant takes up, or that a mammoth was 20% larger than an elephant is in real life, guessing that Niefel giants were supposed to be 15, 20 or 30 feet tall according to Nordic myth, or that the in-game graphical dragon has 28% more pixels than the in-game graphical elephant, it's all missing the point.

Sombre October 3rd, 2008 10:37 AM

Re: Trample balance discussion
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Agema (Post 642560)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Sombre (Post 642296)
Agema: Completely ignoring graphics when it comes to the size of units is counter-intuitive and silly. They are there for a reason.

No. It's the size stat that is there for a reason. The reason for the graphics is they make everything look prettier: you could do the battles with ASCII symbols representing everything (like Nethack) and get as much information out of it. Similarly WRT the sphinx, I know it's a statue in-game. My point is that the Egypt statue is not reflective of what sphinx has to be: there are statues and bas-reliefs of sphinxes from India to Europe, many (all?) of which are much smaller.

What I'm getting at is that I think people are applying too much logic and reality to it all. It's a game. It's about the interplay between various statistics, attributes and effects, where the designers put a lot of time and effort into making it work. Hence if elephants should be nerfed to size 5 you should make the case with whether they are unbalanced or not.

When you start basing arguments on the fact you can fit more than 3 humans into the area an elephant takes up, or that a mammoth was 20% larger than an elephant is in real life, guessing that Niefel giants were supposed to be 15, 20 or 30 feet tall according to Nordic myth, or that the in-game graphical dragon has 28% more pixels than the in-game graphical elephant, it's all missing the point.

No, I think it is you who is missing the point. For one, saying the graphics are just there to look pretty is ludicrous. They are a massive boon to play - you can at a glance tell what sort of unit it is, what weapons and armour it might have, even guess at resistances and other attributes. Of course you might want to know more, in which case you can look over the stats, but to have /just/ the stats would make the game virtually impenetrable.

Realism can serve a similar purpose. When you call a weapon a sword or a short bow or 'fire breath' people immediately have some idea of what it will do. They can still go and look at the stats (which are 'hidden' for a /reason/) if they want to know exactly how it works, but believe me people would enjoy the game far less if a unit called a 'knight' with a heavily armoured powerful looking graphic was actuall a hoburg with a pitchfork. According to your logic there wouldn't be a problem there - It would still be just as pretty, in terms of gameplay people would only need to look at the stats to know. Yet it's clearly absurd and counterintuitive.

You're also putting far too much emphasis on the design decisions of the devs. I'm willing to bet KO doesn't even remember why krakens are whatever size they are. He's said numerous times he isn't even very concerned about balance and he's often very surprised at how things actually work in terms of gameplay. I'm not criticising him here, it's just the way he is.

People have already, many, many times discussed the balance of elephants and tramplers more generally. When people talk about size and graphics and so on, they are considering the other effects a change in size has - besides graphics. Whether it will make the game less intuitive, or has a 'wrong' feeling about it. That's precisely the sort of thing KO thinks about, not so much balance and stats. He primarily wants an elephant to be an elephant (as he envisions), not unit X to do Y or Nation A to be stronger than nation B at point C in the game.

Agema October 3rd, 2008 11:00 AM

Re: Trample balance discussion
 
Your first two paragraphs are the worst act of reductio ad absurdam I've seen in a long time. Please at least try to view my argument with at least some reasonable spirit.

I'm not going to second-guess KO or assume I know his motives. But to me the elephant graphic looks damn large enough to be size 5 or 6. I don't honestly see what the problem with its representation is, or with Titans, krakens, and the rest of it. You know there are 6 sizes. If they look big, you check the size stat to make sure, just like you see a knight and check to see quite how nasty it is. The "feeling" is fine to me, and I suspect most other Dom3 users.

Sombre October 3rd, 2008 12:14 PM

Re: Trample balance discussion
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Agema (Post 642574)
Your first two paragraphs are the worst act of reductio ad absurdam I've seen in a long time. Please at least try to view my argument with at least some reasonable spirit.

I'm not going to second-guess KO or assume I know his motives. But to me the elephant graphic looks damn large enough to be size 5 or 6. I don't honestly see what the problem with its representation is, or with Titans, krakens, and the rest of it. You know there are 6 sizes. If they look big, you check the size stat to make sure, just like you see a knight and check to see quite how nasty it is. The "feeling" is fine to me, and I suspect most other Dom3 users.

You don't have any argument. Or rather you've changed it to the extent that I have no idea what your position actually is. You first stated graphics were irrelevant to size and are now say elephants look size 5 or 6 so there isn't a problem. No-one has said elephants should be below size 5. The talk has been of setting them at size 5 to nerf them a bit and whether or not that is sensibly justifiable in terms of graphics, realism (to the extent that it's useful) and flavour.

The rest of your post suggests to me you haven't actually looked at the kraken graphic. Not the ancient kraken. The regular summon. I believe the shark is also size 6. It doesn't seem intuitive to me, but being underwater it doesn't come into play that much. It's not something I'd go on and on about.

Regardless, I don't really disagree with your second post. Elephants look size 5 or 6 graphically speaking. Or put another way, considering they're size 6, their graphic looks of an appropriate size. It would also be appropriate for a size 5.

Xietor October 3rd, 2008 01:57 PM

Re: Trample balance discussion
 
Btw, I still think MA Arcos is one of the better MA Races. But it is based on their strong astral magic, mind hunts, communions, and reverse communions. But they need elephants to survive early. If Elephants were nerfed, they would no longer be one of the better MA Races. They are in fact better than LA Arcos because astrologers get more s magic then sybils.

Both arcos races are hard to play, as they need much pregame planning. They need thugs to survive in the midgame due to elephants becoming obsolete, and no decent national summons or sacred troops. I am quite happy with the Lich as a pretender for LA Arcos.

HoneyBadger October 3rd, 2008 03:41 PM

Re: Trample balance discussion
 
By the way, it's been a very long time since I've read the elephant description, but I'm not 100% certain that Kristoffer intended that they just be average sized Indian elephants--which I still believe should be size six. They could very well be African elephants, which are significantly larger, or even imperial mammoths, which reached heights of 16 feet or more at the shoulder. I *do* remember something being said about them being the largest of all beasts, which to me says size 6 all the way.

Zeldor October 3rd, 2008 03:59 PM

Re: Trample balance discussion
 
Endoperez:

Nothing is more ugly than mind burning illithids. You can get at least an headache from it. Or worse.

Tifone October 3rd, 2008 05:04 PM

Re: Trample balance discussion
 
BTW as we are on topic:

How would a couple of good, untrampeable thugs with ivy crowns (some animal awe), work against, let's say, a dozen elephants?
And does normal Awe work against elephants as well?

Agema October 3rd, 2008 07:15 PM

Re: Trample balance discussion
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Sombre (Post 642589)
You don't have any argument. Or rather you've changed it to the extent that I have no idea what your position actually is. You first stated graphics were irrelevant to size and are now say elephants look size 5 or 6 so there isn't a problem. No-one has said elephants should be below size 5. The talk has been of setting them at size 5 to nerf them a bit and whether or not that is sensibly justifiable in terms of graphics, realism (to the extent that it's useful) and flavour.

The rest of your post suggests to me you haven't actually looked at the kraken graphic. Not the ancient kraken. The regular summon. I believe the shark is also size 6. It doesn't seem intuitive to me, but being underwater it doesn't come into play that much. It's not something I'd go on and on about.

You seem a bit unnecessarily aggressive. You've chucked around terms like "silly" and "ludicrous", misrepresented my opinions, and stuff like "suggests to me you haven't actually looked at the kraken graphic" comes across as a bit insultingly dismissive (never mind wrong).

I didn't say graphics had nothing to do with the creature: you extrapolated that unfairly. Similarly I don't know why you are implying I thought elephants should be size 4 or under. I feel like you are putting words in my mouth and arguing against them instead of what I've actually said.

If I can clarify, I read the file and saw people arguing size stats for some units are "wrong" or need reconstructing to 12 sizes. I don't find some of the arguments about 'realism', graphical niceties, and so on convincing. I think the important arguments are about game balance. That's where I'm coming from, even if I didn't just stamp that statement down straight away.

thejeff October 3rd, 2008 07:22 PM

Re: Trample balance discussion
 
Awe works against elephants. Pretty well too, though their morale isn't really that low. Normal humans with Ivy crowns would probably get squished pretty quickly. Giants (or the equivalent) would last long enough to matter. I wonder if that's the niche use for the Rat Tail? Fear on hit & Animal Awe

Anything untrampleable works wonders against elephants, but the only things elephants can't trample are other size 6 creatures, which at the start where elephants a threat is your pretender (or your own elephants)

Sombre October 3rd, 2008 07:53 PM

Re: Trample balance discussion
 
Yeah rat tail does ok against elephants. However with enough of them or a morale boost, your dude will get trampled fairly quickly. Only has to lose one awe check and he's toast.

JimMorrison October 3rd, 2008 08:46 PM

Re: Trample balance discussion
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Sombre (Post 642733)
Yeah rat tail does ok against elephants. However with enough of them or a morale boost, your dude will get trampled fairly quickly. Only has to lose one awe check and he's toast.

Cast Flight > Cast Personal Quickness > Attack Large Monsters

? :happy:

Rytek October 3rd, 2008 10:23 PM

Re: Trample balance discussion
 
Ive given some of the EA Ctiss sacred chariot riders a rat tails and used them as linebackers to hold hordes of Mammoths while terror spam finally made them route.


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