2 New maps: Otherland and Spheres
 

Two new maps.

The first "Universe of the Spheres" is a colored woodcut, territories are outlined in bold, paths between stars and sphere's are marked with black lines. 81 land + 0 sea

The second "Otherland", a satellite photo with territories outlined in bold. Any boarders that touch allow travel. 37 land + 6 sea

This is 5 maps in as many days.

You know, I like Dominions 3 and was really excited to be creating content for it. I made some statements when I first posted - that map creation was easy, and that I felt disappointed in the selection, so I decided to take action to correct that.

I, like many of us here, am college educated, well traveled, and well read. I *know* that it is not easy to create a map pixel by pixel. It is amazingly difficult and time consuming and after hundreds or thousands of hours it can produce a thing of beauty. (And often may never happen - I mean the thread is even titled "The map that will never be")

Of course that's completely unnecessary to create a Dominions 3 map. All you need is an image - whether that's a woodcut, a photograph of your Warhammer 40k terrain, a pencil illustration or whatever. You need to add white dots and territory names and traits, and write some text and play-test. *That* isn't difficult - and apparently isn't done. [1]

I had excitement and saw a lack and didn't just complain, but took matters into my own hands and gave these maps to the community. The response? Threats, criticisms by people who didn't even try the maps, and a long string of verbal abuse (swearing and name-calling) by one of your long time members, followed by them telling me I deserved it. And, hell, you know, I only created 5 maps. I would hate to think what I would have deserved if I *hadn't* actually produced a solution to my issue instead of just mentioning it. (There were nice and helpful people and things said - I mention those at the end :-)

I spent some time searching the boards reading about strategies and such and actually ran across several posts, where someone new to the community said something about it being insular and hostile. The next response from a regular was "Not this complaint AGAIN!"

I've gotten some advice about how to manipulate or befriend the community. That's not my goal. My goal was just to share some things I made for a game I like, and hopefully inspire someone who, up till this point, might have thought they needed to put in hundreds of hours to have a good looking and functional map.

I search semi-annually for new Dominions maps, and had never come across this board in my search. It was only once I reached the IRC channel that I learned about these resources. In my enthusiasm I decided to share. I have some web space where my software is hosted, and I think that perhaps that is a better place for me to post my maps. It seems as if it will be easier to find from Google, and truthfully, some of the hostility makes me not excited about something I really like -- Dominions 3.

Just a few final words - there *are* some really nice maps, *and* some really nice people. I know there are probably actual balance issues with my maps, and I'd really like to say thanks to the people who tried them out and gave me good advice. And some people in the IRC channel have been *very* nice, lch, and Pshawdawg in particular. I don't expect *anything* from this missive, it's just if we find the world a way we dislike, nothing will change if we don't take action. Sharing my thoughts and creating these maps are my actions.

Enjoy the maps.



[1]Of course it can be a little more difficult to produce a *good* map. As Sombre said, balancing and testing take time. :-)

Re: 2 New maps: Otherland and Spheres
 

Yes it is. You've been told this. Several maps we've had for a long time have been made by taking a satellite photo, map taken from another source (or fantasy world) etc and turning it into a dom3 map. There aren't as many of these as user created map images though, probably because people enjoy making the images and want to create their own maps.

If you have received threats I suggest you notify the forum administrators immediately.

As for the 'long string of verbal abuse' I invite people to look at the response I gave you on this forum and why you got it. You came to the forums essentially putting down everyone elses efforts, then denied you did and put words in the mouths of others. In fact I believe you've now edited your original posts because of the reaction you got, which was well deserved.

I doubt that. All the advice I saw given to you was how you could avoid people having the negative reaction against you they did. That isn't manipulating a community, that's just making an effort not to offend them.

Re: 2 New maps: Otherland and Spheres
 

Very creative. Thanks for those.

A number of people have used very creative sources for maps. Map generators from other games, satellite images, fractals, spirograph, magnetic charts, multiple layers for underworld-surface-air, ringworld, etc.
I even remember one discussion about playing on the image of a girl in a bikini. :)

The more creative maps dont tend to get the same play as the more mundane ones but they do add good contrast to the overall collections.

Re: 2 New maps: Otherland and Spheres
 

I quite like the look of the satellite one. The land could do with a bit more constrast though I think, it looks a bit homogeneously dingy. Also it's hard to guess what the terrain types will be. The sea looks lovely.

Re: 2 New maps: Otherland and Spheres
 

Yeah the sea does look good. I think there's more scope for maps which do interesting things with water provinces - deep trenches and coral reefs and underwater caves for instance.

Re: 2 New maps: Otherland and Spheres
 

The threats and verbal abuse came from you Sombre and it was in IRC, not the forums.

I'm an adult now, but even when I was a child I was taught to not call people names. There's no excuse for being abusive - no reason good enough to lash out and be hateful. I work daily with people in abusive relationships, and everyone's always got a reason for why they hit someone, or called someone a name. Doesn't make it right.

I'm not denying I removed a sentence that might have been poorly worded soon after posting my first map when someone commented it might have been out of line. This, I think, was the right thing to do. What's up now is what I stand by. If there was a miscommunication (as in the case with ballbarian), I freely admitted to it, and clarified myself. I know it doesn't happen, but people should focus on what I *did*, not "essentially" what I did.

Look, uh, I guess the point is, I made some maps, and the choices you made caused me to be less excited both about contributing to the community and playing Dominions 3. I regret coming here and taking the time to contribute because of what you wrote and how it makes me feel.

Re: 2 New maps: Otherland and Spheres
 

Okay, I gave them a quick spin, here are some thoughts:

As llama said, the satellite one looks nice, but the standardized look of the land mass makes it hard to make out the provinces' terrain features at a glance. The image also suffers from some minor pixelization, and IMO the province divisions could use some work. It looks to me like you've mostly divided them by visual borders, and that's fine, but in some places it doesn't really mesh with gameplay - first of all, the irregular shapes mean that sometimes you have to do a bit of searching before you get the game to register a click in the right province, unless, again, you have neighbors on and click on the defined province centres. Also, the tiny micro-provinces are a bit annoying, and especially the cluster in the west is a pain to work through. Furthermore, a few of the provinces have an unreasonable amount of neighbors, at least for me - this tends to result in annoying gameplay patterns because the area becomes very hard to defend.

The sphere map is very pretty, but a little too concept-heavy for my tastes. The idea of having each star as a little province is cute and all, but again, working through that massive patchwork of tiny provinces is not particularly fun, especially when their connections are so hard to make out.

Also, as a general tip, it's a good idea to state the number of land and sea provinces for the map in the description, along with a recommendation for player numbers.

Re: 2 New maps: Otherland and Spheres
 

[quote=VALIS;643313]I didn't threaten you. That's a flat out lie that's easy to show up by checking IRC logs. I called you out on the way you acted on the forums. I wasn't the only one who had a strong negative reaction to it.

I wasn't being hateful. I was calling a spade a spade. You yourself said (paraphrasing) "If you don't like the way the world is you shouldn't just ignore it" - I don't, I speak my mind. Particularly on IRC or in person.

Wow. Grow a pair. Seriously. If I actually believed you were crying yourself to sleep every night over it I might think "Hey maybe I was a bit harsh" but it's clear you're playing the bird with the injured wing now.

Oh noes Sombre was mean to me and now I don't like dominions! Hilarious.

Until you accused me of threatening you I just disagreed with what you said. Now I want absolutely nothing to do with you. I'm putting you on ignore to try and avoid this becoming some scary e-drama. I hope this works for you.

Edit: I can't seem to find an ignore function on this forum, so I'll do it the old fashioned way. Point is I wash my hands of this. I think this solution will suit VALIS too.

Re: 2 New maps: Otherland and Spheres
 

Not having read any of the text in this thread and thus skipping over any drama stuff ;) I'll have to say that this would be the first maps that I could see finding actual use by a larger amount of the player base. I always liked the first image, which is from a woodcut again I believe. Does the thing in the top left look familiar to you? :) The second map is a tad too dark, but the province borders look interesting. Can you maybe brighten up the image a little, at least for the landmass?

Re: 2 New maps: Otherland and Spheres
 

Okay Ich, you've got me. I've looked at the top left 4 times. What am I not seeing?

Re: 2 New maps: Otherland and Spheres
 

Does this look familiar to you? I'm not sure if it's really related, but it looks very similar.

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/uploa...38-ophanim.jpg

Re: 2 New maps: Otherland and Spheres
 

Sorry Ich, I just don't see that.

Re: 2 New maps: Otherland and Spheres
 

Not the first comment Ive heard about the IRC channel.
Thats one of the reasons we have another one available here. On the Quink Links button at the top of the forum is a link for FLashChat. Check it out.

Re: 2 New maps: Otherland and Spheres
 

Aha, it's an ophanim (ophan?) in the top left!

Re: 2 New maps: Otherland and Spheres
 

Well I still totally don't like the tone or the conclusions from the OP, I think his posts till now are somewhat insulting and for me personally there is 0 difference by just being insulting and being insulting by calling names (which could lead to me reponding to insults with bad language when I can't be bothered to post a decent reply.. which again get's me loads of whining on the net.. but enough about that). The fact the OP seems to regard his idea about adding dots to an existing picture as a stroke of genius is a somewhat strange view on mapmaking IMHO. (I can tell you I made a few maps that way and some with even a lil more effort and I will admit I copied this way of map making from others so it's not like you invented something new here.) Also there are a VERY large number of maps on the forum ranging from casual to strange and empty to fully scripted so I must say his remark that there are hardly any (original) maps is also somewhat of an insult to the mapmakers of the community.

I also think this community isn't very hostile (well, I am but the community on general isn't). New members which don't start out with a bad attitude (like me.. or you) usually get answers to their questions (though questions that are in the faq might get a short and sharp referal too the FAQ), hell I even try to reply to most post asking help and I'm probably one of the least helpfull pplz around here. (the ones complaining are usually pplz like you or pplz starting out with flat out demands for our beloved KO and JK to change this and this yesterday)

You keeping to referring to Sombre (probably) as being the meanest person around here (which can't be so since that is me) and that just won't do you much good since everyone here knows Sombre is a very helpfull member of this community, and has added so much very nice nations to dominions 3 and helped so much pplz with a lot of things and especially nation modding that it's just a strange thing to say. (Though Sombre seems to have a strange aversion to my dominions 3000 mod which does indicate something isn't quite alright behind the eyes and between his ears.)

To conclude my reply on your continued whining about abuse when IMHO you clearly started it yourself I want to say the following: please keep posting all maps you can make: I didn't like your first ones I do like one of these, but others might like them all so, (again) please keep posting them BUT LEAVE THE WHINING (complaints about abuse you deserve and how good what you do is) OUT (it will significantly shorten the long string of abuse you seem to be encountering). Thanks.

onto the maps:

I do like the 2nd map it seems actually playable and looks nice. Might be very nice for some small MP games.

I wonder though why every one likes the woodcut but not the map I made from an old london map but whatever. The woodcut doesn't seem that nice to play on but they are better then the last two.

Re: 2 New maps: Otherland and Spheres
 

I like the old London map - it's one of my favorites.
-Campbell

Re: 2 New maps: Otherland and Spheres
 

Well thank you, if you have tips to improve it I'll be happy to do so.

Once you have enough of just adding dots to pictures (and if you know my map you know it's not a new idea :D) you should try modding maps with creatures etc too. Generally about 1-2 pplz download them (well mine anyway) but it's pretty fun to think up of things to mod. My multi layer map is out there too (but when I didn't get much feedback I stopped updating it rather quickly so there are some errors in it I think) and it's might be fun to try to if you like different and chokepoints.

OF course the best of the best (:D) in map modding and general modding and probably one of the largest mods currently out there is my dominions 3000 mod (with thanks to several others for their contributions of course) and it's solar system map.

Anyway enough advertizing, and don't think that complimenting me will make me any nicer.

PS I'd personally think that more of those satelite maps would be greatly appreciated by a relative large part of the community, your one is basicly a pretty standard map (I mean it features land and sea etc) but looks incredibly nice :D

Re: 2 New maps: Otherland and Spheres
 

hmm these are very interesting maps even though the star one is a bit confusing the first time i played it. Couldnt quite figure out what was goin on but nice maps none the less.

Re: 2 New maps: Otherland and Spheres
 

Long time lurker, first time poster...
I like your fresh perspective on map making for Dominions. I think you were a bit over the top upon first impression (thus some of the backlash) in both attitude and map style but that is the past this is now...

We are seeing two distinct styles from you now, one quite abstract, the other more traditional (really like the "otherland" map by the way) and while I appreciate what you are trying to do with the abstract maps, abstraction without accessibility (in this case playability) is severely limiting when offered for public consumption.

I believe that if you combined abstraction with traditional we would see some of the best maps ever created (or found) for Dominions. :up:

The landscape portions of "spheres" is quite close I think.

Thank you for your maps!

-IP

Re: 2 New maps: Otherland and Spheres
 

I will try to be as polite as I can.

You got negative reactions to your personality, MUCH more than your maps.

I am not going to list all of the negative personality traits that you have displayed in this short area you have already claimed for yourself in this forum - if you can't read your own words and say "wow if that was someone else I'd think he was a jerk", then that only makes you a hypocrite, or insane.

Plus, your maps are really not very good. That is, in the sense of that it is a map, that is somehow representative of some foreign land, where my loyal minions may be fighting for domination. I want to take over a world, not a rhinoceros or a wig.


Oh and to reiterate - you're not an artist, you're just someone with a bad idea, and an inability to handle criticism, even when it's dressed up with friendly teasing. But I'm not teasing, because you have displayed a striking lack of sense of humor, so I am just being completely honest with you. Next time you accuse nice, friendly, and playful people as being threatening or hostile, just imagine that you may have insulted their hard work (maps they spent weeks polishing) to give them something you hardly worked on. And to clarify - Ballbarian didn't tell you to "manipulate people", all he basically said was that people would be nicer if you weren't such a prick. This is me telling you, you're still acting like a prick - and over some misguided premise that your maps are somehow superior to real maps.


I will continue to look forward to your understanding of mapmaking to improve, as well as your personality.

<3

Re: 2 New maps: Otherland and Spheres
 

You didn't try hard enough.
:rant2:
It's been over two weeks, the thread was just bumped, Valis just got some positive comments on his maps, and you decided to be a prick and ensure he doesn't come back and change his attitude.


I liked the idea behind his maps. I didn't like the maps themselves (I didn't even download them), because they lacked polishing and the source images didn't look like they'd work well as maps, but the idea could have been great. I could accept conquering the world that's in fact in the backs of gigantic turtles, if the map had good terrain selection, outlines for the provinces and interesting province connections. The algae of that picture could work as forests, the rocks in the bottom would be mountains or caves, and if the map wrapped on east-west direction it could be made to work. It'd be a 45-or-so land-province map with several seas, good for games without sea nations even though it favours amphibious and sailing nations.


The quote above is just a fragment of what you wrote. This fragment would've been quite enough, TWO WEEKS AGO, when the discussion was actually relevant! :rant:

If you can't read your own words and say "if that was someone else I'd think he was a jerk", then that makes you a hypocrite. (Even if you didn't start it.)

Re: 2 New maps: Otherland and Spheres
 

Here here. I'm currently making Earth-based maps by combining satellite photos with topographic and bathymetric data (estimated ~2000 provinces for the whole planet, but I plan to release smaller sections separately). Researching and interpreting ancient names of all the world's provinces, bays, gulfs, straits, etc, is slow though manageable, but I've found relatively little information on the names of Earth's underwater terrain features. Sure I've got the main trenches, ridges and basins, but anyone know where I can find more detailed resources such as this example?

Re: 2 New maps: Otherland and Spheres
 

I completely regret bumping this thread now... there is a reason I said, "but that is the past this is now..."

I was hoping cooler, and more logical heads would prevail :doh:

Re: 2 New maps: Otherland and Spheres
 

My apologies, Endo.

I wander in and out of here, and this was when I saw this (no blame on you innerpattern, these things happen).

I was shocked by the first post in this thread, so I read the other threads, and was more shocked. The OP really got under my skin, and I admit, I was overly profuse in my reaction, and probably should have resisted the urge to post.

Unfortunately, this falls under the category of "reasons we wanted to keep our editing privileges". That is to say, I am confident that I've not broken any forum rules, however I was rather harsh, and if I could, I'd atone for lashing out, by reducing the volume of my voice.

Unfortunately, it gets to stay there. I meant it, but I should have gathered more self control. (And I appreciate the irony Endo, but I am full well aware that I can be quite the prick when something hits me wrong, and I knew I wasn't exactly being cordial here. I just haven't mastered the art of being lovably prickly, like Aezeal - I'm generally likable when I'm nice, but not at all when I'm mean. Doesn't stop me from being mean now and then, I guess I am just crazy like that.)

Re: 2 New maps: Otherland and Spheres
 

It's OK jim, as you might have seen others had the same feeling.. but we also hoped that he'd learned something of the various replies he'd gotten so your sort of late reply was well... to late :D

doesn't mean you are wrong though :D

Re: 2 New maps: Otherland and Spheres
 

I personally don't care for the maps, but I'm not going to bag on Aezeal. I've played MP with him, and he's a good enough guy.

Re: 2 New maps: Otherland and Spheres
 

Good Grief!!!

The vast majority of us are hoping, no make that praying, that this thread falls off the the first page to the netherworld of "other pages". For the third day in a row it's been the top post in the forum.

HINT, HINT.

Re: 2 New maps: Otherland and Spheres
 

who was bagging on me btw? Lingchicks message leaves me a bit confused since I didn't know this thread was about me.

Making the thread be about me would seriously improve it's quality though. :D

Re: 2 New maps: Otherland and Spheres
 

God I hate Aezeal.

Re: 2 New maps: Otherland and Spheres
 

Did someone just say "Aezeal I hate Aezeal" :D

seems the thread is about me anyway, last post probably falls under "bagging Aezeal"... so Lingchih seems to be able to see in the future. /me is impressed.

Of course Sombre is allowed his feelings... no matter how strange they are.

Re: 2 New maps: Otherland and Spheres
 

Only few people grasp how Sombre publicly expresses his signs of affection.

Re: 2 New maps: Otherland and Spheres
 

Well I must say it makes me feel special.. but that isn't much news to those who know me I guess :D

I'd love to hear your explanation of it though Ich :D