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"And here comes in the question whether it is better to be loved rather than feared, or feared rather than loved. It might perhaps be answered that we should wish to be both; but since love and fear can hardly exist together, if we must choose between them, it is far safer to be feared than loved."
---------- Game started! Principe's page on llamaserver at: http://www.llamaserver.net/gameinfo.cgi?game=Principe Instructions for playing your turn here: http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showp...17&postcount=3 Last moment change: as there are no water nations, the population of all sea provinces, and all the things that come with it, are reduced. Gems remain untouched, though. ---------- Welcome here and thanks for giving a look. ;) This game aims to be an experiment for two, important, aspects. Don't fear, my honourable newbie brothers! :D Read further and I'm sure you will be interested. The first experiment, as the name of the game itself says, is the diplomacy, which will be "Machiavellian". What does it mean? Maybe you've heard about Niccolò Machiavelli. This man was a diplomat, political philosopher, musician, poet and playwright, who lived in the Renaissance and, along with Leonardo Da Vinci, is considered among the most representative men of that period. (Both of them happen to be from my native lands, also :) ) Machiavelli wrote a world famous book, "Il Principe", which (among its different interpretations) can be read as a guide for the prince of Machiavelli's time on how to gain and maintain his power. The strong point of his theories are that the greatest moral good is a stable state, and actions to protect the country are therefore justified even if they are dishonourable or even cruel. How does it apply to Dom3? It does apply and greatly. In Dominions 3, in the end, there can be only one. All the alliances and the peace treaties sooner or later must end. So why not to end our beautiful friendship backstabbing you when you don't expect it? :angel In many games, you would be considered an unworthy player if you do so. Those are the rules and are ok for those games. Not here. In this game, all the treaties are mere words. Sounds scary? It is. But it can be great fun :D Why is your neighbour using all those kind words? Is he roleplaying his Lady of Love, or is he preparing to raid your provinces in a couple of turns? This is the kind of diplomatic situation you will face in this world: make friendship with everybody freely, but always watch your back. Feel free to roleplay your honourable ancient Dragon, your crazy and double-tongued Moloch, or your "smite all evil NOW" Virtue. Expect everything, because everything can happen. The other experiment is the game itself. This will probably not be the game you're used to. Around your capitol, there is a large breathing space of independent provinces. Money, resources and supplies are high. Magic sites are abundant, and magic research is easy. The point of all this? Easy. In this game we will try to skip a good part of the usual early game skirmishes between players with little magic and few troops, to have a solid impact with the realities the newer players have a more difficult time getting into: mid and late game, where the big battalions, the strong summons, the amazing battle magic start to matter and shine. It will not be easy as well. It will require planning, skill, and even luck. You will have to stop thinking about "the next turn", and start thinking about what you want to have in your armies in 5, 10, 20 turns. I conceived it as a way to learn everybody a lot. If you've read the manual's strategic part and you're wondering when you will be called to enter that dance of moves and countermoves, tactics and counter-tactics, this is the place we will learn before getting into the gurus' arenas! ;) It is an opportunity and a hard challenge you just shouldn't give up - because here we're newbies and many errors will be "forgiven", but next time you might be facing a minmaxing maniac :D! Ok, I've gone to great lenghts :p But I hope you are interested in this maybe slightly unusual game now, and prepared for what you'll face. Server: Llamaserver, PBEM (FAQ here: http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=35160) Map: AomOrc 3.01 by Ballbarian (very interesting and nice map, get it at http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=31509 ) Nations: We are 10 land nations, didn't find the 2 water ones Players's experience: possibly from 0 to 5 MP games (but even more if we have trouble filling it); just ask anyway. Time: 48 hours per turn (a day you don't feel like or don't have the time to play can always happen :) ) and of course quick host. Era: Early Age Hall of fame: 15 Mods: CBM 1.3 complete (get it at http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=39679, and don't fear! It's popular, user-friendly and balances the game a bit) Victory Conditions: Whenever the players still alive agree there's a definite, undeniable winner Magic sites' frequency: 65 Money, Resources, Supplies: 150% Renaming: On Graphs: Off (you have to figure out yourself, investing in scouts and intelligence, what are the real strenghts and weaknesses of the other princes, if you wish so) Appreciated: To roleplay actively, and to keep the thread alive posting things about the game :) Ballbarian's unofficial comment: "Sounds like fun to me. :)" To join, just say which nation you would like to try :smirk: I take Agartha. Well, I think this is everything. I hope you enjoyed the reading and you are interested in joinin. For any doubt just ask :D Let's have fun ;) - Tifone will try to avoid the extinction of the Ancient Oracles of Agartha - Ershalim has vanished. Now slayers_ai has choosen to ordain and supervise the Blood Cult of Mictlan Klepto leads the legions of Ermor to the conquest of the world - Psykmoe from the Smouldercone spreads the cleansing flames of Abysia - - hunt11 emerges from the the netherworld to feed Yomi's gluttony - Illuminated One has gathered the tribes of Marverni; the druids recognize his primate. Iwarmonger tames the hydras, gaining the confidence of the Androphags and the Amazons of Sauromantia - Spritz reins the Mammoth and the thunder, on top of the cold peaks of Caelum - Ephraim has survived the winter and the Wheel of Pain, becoming the new champion of Ulm Mithras arises from the glacier to expand the Eternal Frost of Niefelheim |
Re: Principe - new EA newbie Machiavellian game - recruiting!
Oooh. This sounds like fun! Can I play as Mictlan? This would be my 4th MP game. :D
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Re: Principe - new EA newbie Machiavellian game - recruiting!
Of course you can, and thanks for joining ;) The blood cult is yours :evil:
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Re: Principe - new EA newbie Machiavellian game - recruiting!
Ermor please. This sounds like it has the makings of a great game. I'm thouroughly enjoying our role played diplomacy in the Greenrow game Tifone, I look forward to more of the same here.
I've read Machiavelli's The Prince, it's a great book although personally I prefer Sun Tzu's The Art of War and the lesser known The Art of Worldly Wisdom by Baltasar Gracion. |
Re: Principe - new EA newbie Machiavellian game - recruiting!
I'll take Abysia if possible. Will be my first MP game.
Is 'Principe' the game name? Says in the llamaserver FAQ that my email subject needs to be the game name. |
Re: Principe - new EA newbie Machiavellian game - recruiting!
You are both welcome, guys :)
The appreciation for Greenrow's roleplaying is absolutely reciprocal, Klepto, you are doing a great work there and I'm pleased to have you here too ;) Also, thanks for the link to Wikipedia's page about "The Art of Worldly Wisdom". I didn't know it but now I'm willing to find it somewhere (like if this game wasn't already stealing my time for university and the new girlfriend :p) |
Re: Principe - new EA newbie Machiavellian game - recruiting!
Psykmoe,
the game hasn't been "created" there yet. Llamabeast's FAQ advices against creating the game until all the players have signed up. Being the first game I organize, I'm planning to follow every advice I get from it or from more expert players :D When we will have no more free slots, I'll create the game there and you will be able to upload your Pretender God by mail. Yes, the game will be named "Principe", anyway. ;) |
Re: Principe - new EA newbie Machiavellian game - recruiting!
Strangely not a single tier 1 nation was chosen, let along the tier 0 Hinnom... Maybe you should not allow Hinnom in. With graph off and diplomacy shaky, there is no way to defeat a half decent Hinnom. :)
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Re: Principe - new EA newbie Machiavellian game - recruiting!
I would like to use Yomi. I am really curios to see how the writings of the prince will apply to dominions.
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About Hinnom
Welcome, hunt 11 :) Yeah, I'm curious too ;) The "moral free" diplomacy will surely help
Thanks for the advice, konmig. Yeah, I thought about Hinnom and decided finally not to forbid it, as this is supposed not to be a game for minmaxers and experts, but for newbies who will probably not take full advantage of Hinnom's strenghts. Should a (relatively) too expert player choose it (like, 4-5 MP games done, or 3rd MP game with Hinnom), I reserve myself anyway to gently ask him to change. Well, 5 slots taken, 7 still empty (remember, 2 must be water nations). Going to bed now and busy tomorrow morning, next update from me in 12 hours :o (Continue joining the game in the meantime! :D) See you guys :smirk: |
Re: Principe - new EA newbie Machiavellian game - recruiting!
Not signing up, just hopping in to say what a wonderfully detailed opening post that is.
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Re: Principe - new EA newbie Machiavellian game - recruiting!
If the game has trouble filling, I will take a spot if you'd like. I've only been here a few months, but I sure play a lot, so I won't take the spot from a greener player if they want it. ;)
If you need me to round things out though, I'd be fine with a nation that has no MP wins yet, like Arco, or Atlantis. <3 |
Re: Principe - new EA newbie Machiavellian game - recruiting!
Thanks a lot, tgbob. My greetings to California (been there, a wonderful place :cool:)
Thanks to you too, JimMorrison, your attitude is greatly appreciated, if we have troubles filling the spots I'll surely PM you. |
Re: Principe - new EA newbie Machiavellian game - recruiting!
Sounds cool.
I'd like to be in as Marveni. |
Re: Principe - new EA newbie Machiavellian game - recruiting!
Nice write up. Sure is tempting. But alas I have more than 5 games under my belt. Nice to see the nation picks in this game. Normally it goes:
Hinnom Niefel Lanka etc bleh. |
Re: Principe - new EA newbie Machiavellian game - recruiting!
Welcome, Illuminated One ;)
Well, Rytek, you will surely be PMed if you would like to play, if we have trouble filling all slots with greener players :D As 2 more veteran players have already expressed this, I'd like to point out that I greatly appreciate your nation picks, guys. Looks like everybody is choosing nations which match not only their playing style but even their "roleplaying style". EA is the age with the most "exotic" nations and themes, so in the diplomatic field we should meet races with great differences in behaviours, sense of dignity and even communicating attitudes. I'm sure this will help in having a game where nothing should be taken for granted :cool: |
Re: Principe - new EA newbie Machiavellian game - recruiting!
That's exactly my type of game! >-) Unfortunately I'm already in 2 other games and can't afford to join another. Just wanted to express my apretiation to Tifone for the 1st post - that's the wonderful example how a game should be organised the RIGHT way: everithing is perfectly clear for everyone joining the game. I think he's a great administrator to play with is always a pleasure.
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Re: Principe - new EA newbie Machiavellian game - recruiting!
Thanks a lot WingedDog. Should you change your mind and wish to try this experience with us, it will be a pleasure :)
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Re: Principe - new EA newbie Machiavellian game - recruiting!
Well, I'll take Sauromatia... I am currently in my first multi-player game, so this will make two.
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Re: Principe - new EA newbie Machiavellian game - recruiting!
Well this sounds awesome.
I would like to take the reigns of Caelum, please, as a newb of no MP experience. I must say part of me is disappointed to learn that in most MP games treaties are considered more that just words, it seems a bit unnatural for a winner-takes-it-all type game. Ah well, I certainly look forward to this one. |
Re: Principe - new EA newbie Machiavellian game - recruiting!
Well, welcome aboard Iwarmonger and Spritz ;)
Just 4 open slots now :) We are still missing both the water nations, too :D |
Re: Principe - new EA newbie Machiavellian game - recruiting!
I'd like to try Ulm. I'm pretty much a complete noob--I'm in my first MP games right now, both of them are at turn 10, so I really have no MP experience yet.
Looks like a fun game in the making! EDIT: Hmm, just noticed you are still missing water nations. If we are short on water, I'd happily play Atlantis. First choice:Ulm, Second choice: Atlantis Probably shows how much a noob I am--I know both of those nations are reported to be weak, but I like'em anyway! |
Re: Principe - new EA newbie Machiavellian game - recruiting!
Looks like a fun game!
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Re: Principe - new EA newbie Machiavellian game - recruiting!
I just joined my first mp game but since its not a newb only game I'm expecting to be completely smashed by turn ten, so I'll have more time for this...
I'll take Niefelheim because then I get to be a gruff man of the north and trample all over the diplomacy of the European courts this seems to be based on (oh and yes I know enough to start throwing those wolven winter spells around, I haven't tried it yet though, so if it seems overpowered feel free to switch me over too Fomoria) |
Re: Principe - new EA newbie Machiavellian game - recruiting!
Welcome Ephraim and Mithras! :) I see no reason why you shouldn't have your first choice for nations.
I also rejoice in seeing both of you really like the mood and theme of your nations ;) Well, we are just missing the two water nations now :D I hope somebody will soon answer the call of the oceans... |
Re: Principe - new EA newbie Machiavellian game - recruiting!
It's kind of ironic that in a machiavellan game everyone is taking the weak nations for their style. :happy:
Well, all the better if noone can stand up to the cunning of the honorable and naive Marverni. :D |
Re: Principe - EA newbie Machiavellian game - last 2 free slots! W nations only!
Well, 10 players in less than one day isn't bad at all :) We are still missing the water nations though. If you guys agree, I'd wait another 12/14 hours from now before raising the experience roof for those 2 nations (allowing them for more expert players). They are in a *very* good position in the map IMO so giving them to an expert player might be unbalancing, but I don't want to make you guys wait forever for this game too :D
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Re: Principe - EA newbie Machiavellian game - last 2 free slots! Try the W nations!
Lanka for me, please. Second choice: Tien
Altho I'm a little confused.. you did mean no hinnom, right? |
Re: Principe - EA newbie Machiavellian game - last 2 free slots! Try the W nations!
chrispedersen, read before submitting please ;) Did you read everything about which kind of game is this?
We are missing the water nations only, so none of your choice is valid. Also, this is game for newbies with 0-5 MP games of experience. I think you're more expert than this but maybe I'm wrong. Do you fill the requirements? :) |
Re: Principe - EA newbie Machiavellian game - last 2 free slots! Try the W nations!
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To address your questions - I am no qualms of playing a backstabbing game, regardless of my expressed preferences. However, as for the rest its up to you.. I've actually only *finished* one MP game. But I've been finished in far more = ). I originally applied as you said you would consider more experienced if you had trouble filling up.. sooooooo if I'm too experienced, no problem = ). But I have no desire to be a water race. Spent way to much time underwater in the last one. Way to much time. Oh. And I'm back to prefering TienChi, if it matters = ). |
Re: Principe - EA newbie Machiavellian game - last 2 free slots! Try the W nations!
Reducing the "machiavellian" diplomacy I'm expecting to a mere "backstabbing game" seems a bit restrictive, my friend :)
I'm sorry but there are only water slots now... Should you change your mind and wish to play one, you'll be in the list of the "more experienced people I'll PM if we don't fill the slots of greener people, in 10 hours" :D Best regards ;) |
Re: Principe - EA newbie Machiavellian game - last 2 free slots! Try the W nations!
I'm perfectly happy to change my nation from Sauromatia to EA R'lyeh... it is a nation that I haven't played much, but have been quite intrigued by... however if we get an experienced player in the other water slot, expect me to be crushed straight away.
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Re: Principe - EA newbie Machiavellian game - last 2 free slots! Try the W nations!
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Just one more (water nation) to go before we kick off, good luck all! |
Re: Principe - EA newbie Machiavellian game - last 2 free slots! Try the W nations!
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By the way - the Prince and The Art of War should be required reading for everyone. But the tools of statecraft are really too pause (how do you spell that) to really allow a machiavellian game, tho I admire the attempt. |
Re: Principe - EA newbie Machiavellian game - last 2 free slots! Try the W nations!
Quote:
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Re: Principe - EA newbie Machiavellian game - last 2 free slots! Try the W nations!
that's the whole point of this game, we have no idea how it's going to work, but we are all going to try it and see what happens.
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Hey all ^_^ I just woke up to give a look here. Well, seems we are still missing the same 2 slots.
I am now wondering how would the game turn if we just skip the water nations and play us, ten people. The water nations have a probably unbalanced start, they can expand without problems and without any connection between them on a large numbers of provinces while the land nations fight one against the other. I think it is the best solution for everybody; I'm gonna ask Ballbarian (the author of the map) if there is any problem with that solution :) I'm just sorry I will skip the gentle offer of the most experienced players to help us filling the slots, but maybe it will be better for the overall balance this way. |
Re: Principe - EA newbie Machiavellian game - last 2 free slots! Try the W nations!
And there I was planning my whole forieng policy/pretender on keeping the water nations in the water... But I only did it because my biggest fear is a powerful water nation so I suppose its a good thing...
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Re: Principe - EA newbie Machiavellian game - last 2 free slots! Try the W nations!
None of the EA water nations are considered "powerful". Maybe Oceania, but it is only because it dominates the water.
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Re: Principe - EA newbie Machiavellian game - last 2 free slots! Try the W nations!
The problem konmig is that we're not getting the players for them, and as their map position is quite advantageous (no water opponents, 2 big strips of water with access to a vast portion of land provinces) it might be better to just skip having them in the game, instead of giving them to experienced players which might cause some trouble to the overall balance :)
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Re: Principe - EA newbie Machiavellian game - last 2 free slots! Try the W nations!
I meant powerful in the sense that they could attack you from anywhere relatively unaoposed and then get back into the water again, the thing is now I see Agartha and possibly the ice nations making foreys into the sea, which could make things difficult for the others... I'm not complaining of course being an ice nation :)
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Re: Principe - EA newbie Machiavellian game - Upload pretenders!
Ok, we just go as we are. :D
Upload pretenders guys! Instructions in the first post - rember to ENABLE the mod before creating the pretender ;) |
Re: Principe - EA newbie Machiavellian game - Upload pretenders!
The nation of Yomi is ready to show that while our leader's may be a bit stupid, it does not mean that we are not cunning.
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Re: Principe - EA newbie Machiavellian game - Upload pretenders!
If you like I can set the map so that you have "dead seas", i.e. all water provinces have no income or gems. With no water nations this can be good for balance, because otherwise the one or two nations with amphibious pretenders / merman villages can do disproportionately well.
PM me if you want me to do that, because I'll forget to look here. |
Re: Principe - EA newbie Machiavellian game - Upload pretenders!
Mmh. What do you people think about it? I see several reasons against.
I'm wondering if that can kill the usefulness of having amphibian units-pretenders. After all, you pay a bit for that ability too. The W gems income would be quite trashed for the nations which need it. Also, being the seas protected by the indeps (which are often quite strong with Krakens and Sea Trolls), and the lands attacked by the other nations, maybe one will not take full advantage of the sea chance. And one nation can probably only have access to one of the 2 strips of sea, and even there be challenged there by enemy summons and amphibious recruited indeps. One could even find the way to become a sea superpower even from land (think england) and maybe killing this opportunity reduces the strategic options. Also, there are some nice "special locations" in the map and killing them seems sad. What do you think? |
Re: Principe - EA newbie Machiavellian game - Upload pretenders!
Personally, I think that having dead seas is a good idea. Not many of the nations in question have amphibious units anyways, and if there are only recruitable amphibious troops in one or two provinces on each side of the map, this could very well end up favoring a couple of nations that merely get lucky with positioning.
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Ok, I think llama, being an expert, suggested the best idea.
To save the usefulness of amphibiousness on units and pretenders somehow (Wyrm anyone?), and at the same time not disadvantage the land nations, the sea provinces will have a just nominal income and mere 2000 pop. They will have the normal gems though, so the map's special locations and the need of some nations for W gems are't killed. I hope everybody gets happy with that. After all if a nations is focusing too much on sea, is probably giving you the side on his land provinces ;) |
Re: Principe - EA newbie Machiavellian game - Upload pretenders!
Abysia has little use for the cold depths anyway, they might as well be dead!
(pretender sent) |
Re: Principe - EA newbie Machiavellian game - Upload pretenders!
Water dilutes blood; its loss will not be felt by the Coven of Mictlan.
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Re: Principe - EA newbie Machiavellian game - Upload pretenders!
The giants like the idea of going for a swim... as if I'm going to need more water gems! Are we going to have a seperate forumn when the game starts because it would be nice to start posting my thematic introduction...
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