Low Cost Tactics
 

I was reading the thread about unlikely and niche tactics and had an idead: what about cheap tactics? cheap meaning low gold/resource/gem/research costs that are efective...

I´ll start with a very commom one:

- build the cheap independent scout and equip it with a skull talisman for skel spamming, it´s a good acessory in battle and can be used as a patroller in border provinces... i stack of 5 of these can defeat the majority of early AI attacks and is more effective than the PD equivalent...

So, anyone have a cheap tactic to contribute?

Re: Cheap Tactics
 

Quick suggestion. Can you rename thread to Low Cost tactics? This is a great topic but I thought it would be another MP rant because of the "Cheap Tactics" title.

Re: Cheap Tactics
 

Faced with an incredibly strong independent province that would take a large army to defeat?

Send in a scout set to retreat to see how many commanders & what type there are. Then equip a few assassins capable of taking them out (Indy commanders won't have guards). After you've killed all the leaders, the scout can take the province alone since the remaining army will rout when the battle begins.

Re: Low Cost Tactics
 

Title changed to reduce confusion (confused me too). To those who haven't come across the term before, "Cheap tactics" would generally mean underhand or cheesy ones rather than low cost ones.

Re: Low Cost Tactics
 

They might. Priests often do.

It's a good tactic, but not foolproof.
Skeleton earrings are good for that type of assassin.

Re: Cheap Tactics
 

Personally I hate to waste castle turns making scouts or assassins. I try to use each castle turn to make the best commander unit I can, or need. Indy assasins would do, but they are quite rare. By the time I am at the point where I can think about building assassins, indies do not pose much opposition.

Then I'll try to get mages or maybe even a weak pretender chassis with the assassins. Assassins die a little too easily to waste on idies. Also strong indies also have strong leaders making assassinations at best a 50% proposition.

Now units with seduce are a whole other issue.

Re: Cheap Tactics
 

That depends on the assassin. Abysia has some mighty-fine assassins....

Re: Low Cost Tactics
 

Ethereal + lucky tramplers. I once took an awake rainbow pretender with LA Arco in order to research up to alt-3 very quickly, at which point 1 mage + 1 elephant was an effective expansion party vs most indies. You could do similar things with other nations.

Speaking of buffing others, don't forget the other small AOE buffs which can be very effective on national recruits or low level summons. A Kraken is ok, but a Kraken buffed with iron warriors & quickness is suddenly a 3 gem thug who can take out light PD by himself (well, with his buffing mage), and is even pretty good at squishing other early thugs.

Speaking of singlehandedly taking out light PD, earth and air elementals are great ways for modestly powered mages to turn raider. Air elementals will take out light PD from unprepared neighbors when you cloud trapeze in to unexpected locations, while a pair of earth elementals (any E2 mage can get two after summoning earth power) will take out fairly heavy PD from many nations.

Speaking of elementals, fire elementals are a great way to take out SCs when you're on a budget. So long as the SC doesn't have 100% fire immunity, the heat aura will quickly pass him out once he's surrounded by a few fire elementals - their multiple forms will give them the time they need to live long enough. In a cold climate you can do the same thing with ice (water) elemetnals. Living fire/water is nice, but in a pinch just use several low level mages to summon a bunch of small ones.

Speaking of cheaply killing SCs, sprites are a great budget way to deal fatigue damage. Most people know that spamming enough MR check spells will overcome almost any MR, and few SCs would be willing to drop in alone against 20 concentrated astral mages....yet that's effectively what they're doing when 20 sprites are firing at them. Just one failed MR roll and they're even better than paralyzed - they're passed out. 0 defense, and a huge chance of critical hits means even the toughest SCs will get hacked up any reasonable troops. This is great not just against SCs, but against any super tough concentrated group (super blessed sacreds, etc.)

Re: Low Cost Tactics
 

So far I have absolutely never successfully used seduction with national units, or in game at all on that matter. I don't know weather it's just my bad luck but about 9/10 times I failed even with indie commanders.( Usually try it with Arco)
Succubus is supposed to have a bigger chance to do it, but I think it's a waste of blood slaves, she's very bad 1 on 1, there are cheaper ways to get commanders, charm, hellbind hearth, enslave mind.

Re: Low Cost Tactics
 

I like Hoburg Crossbows. They're cheap and low-resource, so you can pack an enormous number of the little guys into your army. They're small, so you can fit 50% more Hoburgs into the same space on the tactical map when compared to human crossbowmen, and that seems to translate into greater missile density.

The only downside is the map move of 1. If you have a way to overcome that issue -- or if you just don't care -- then Hoburg Crossbows can be a cheap way to add a lot of firepower to your army.

Re: Low Cost Tactics
 

Its true. However, if you prophetize a succubus - or alternatively, the Lanka Rakshasa she always wins the fights that she fails to seduce.

People say its expenseive - and it is. 350 gold for the rakshasa, plus maybe a couple of gems on kitting. But against the right terrains, this can be invaluable.

Many commanders will have magic items - especailly specials. 1-2 magic items repays the cost of the rakshasa easily.

Other tricks I like:

Markata monkies - awesome stealth... you'll never find them. With False idols, or Bane venom charms. Attack with the monkey on the turn that the disease is going to kill him.. to ensure the enemy is going to pick it up.

Re: Low Cost Tactics
 

I think that Pythian doom popes are excellent PD destroyers, if set to spam soul slay. Leaders tend to get targeted first, which can cause massive routs.

Re: Low Cost Tactics
 

Succubus are much better at it. Add a skull amulet for 3 gems with hammer and she's almost unbeatable by anything less than a powerful mage or Thug/SC.

The thing about seduction is that it works best when combined with Hellbind Heart or Charm so that the seducer uses the assassination battle for the mind-control. In a sense, you can look at the seduction power as the same value as the Assassin power, but you get a chance to move two units too.

Re: Low Cost Tactics
 

ancient kraken pretender with 2 astral and 2 fire, from the start it can take out weakly defended water provinces and once you research all oyu need for it to cast luck, ethereal and ultimately pheonix pyre it becomes a force to be reckoned with, heck just give it an amulet of the fish and teleport it on enemy armies, with all it's attacks and surviveability it just needs some reinvigoration (lots of ways to get that cheaply) and it can rip early armies to shreads alone.

Re: Low Cost Tactics
 

2 astral is a good way to get your Kraken Mind Duelled though. Try just sending him in with a couple of cheapy mages to buff him. Body Ethereal, Luck and, if you can get an air mage underwater, Gift of Flight can be cast on other units at a distance. Saves the Kraken from Mind duel and gives him an extra turn to two to attack. The Kraken's so huge on HP too that you might not even need Phoenix pyre, letting you pour points into your Dominion for 2+ Awe.

Re: Low Cost Tactics
 

I think it's been implied above, but to be didactic...

if you have an assassin it is a very worthwhile to prophetize them. smiting assassins are better than sliced bread.

have this assassin enter the strongest bordering indie province and assassinate until there are no commanders left. then just invade the province with a scout or something and it's yours. this is slow but cheap. at the beginning of the game it is a way to capture the most difficult (i.e. expensive) provinces for free. you can have your actual armies focus on grabbing easier provinces, use this assassin to grab the hard ones.

Re: Low Cost Tactics
 

If you need to defeat an early tough SC rush, and you've got Astral and Blood (Abysia, Mictlan at least), then Thau1 plus Blood1 gives you Horror Mark followed with a few Summon Lesser Horrors. 3 S1B1 mages can communion to do this if you don't have S2s.

Re: Low Cost Tactics
 

This also works with Summon Lamshanka's. Although you need Death/Astral. And need to hit summoning4/Thua 1.

Re: Low Cost Tactics
 

Mictlan *defending* against an early rush?

Um.. you should be OFFENDING.... And mictlan is top 2 in bless rushes in my book.

Re: Low Cost Tactics
 

Well, it sure beats ruining a pack or two of sacreds on a gorgon or a cyclops with an eye shield. I guess I should have said early SC counter, since the SC may either be rushing you or responding to your rush.

Re: Low Cost Tactics
 

I'd go with Air 4/Earth 4 on an Ancient Kraken, if you want him cheap. It'll allow you to eventually get him out of the water, and along with the many excellent spells those two paths grant, they'll give him +4 Prot and +4 Prec. Both very handy.

Re: Low Cost Tactics
 

The kraken isn't really going to be casting any offensive spells, so I dunno what you're going to do with the extra precision.

Re: Low Cost Tactics
 

well when the kraken gets on land, it will be helpful should the kraken become involved in a spirited game of marbles.

Re: Low Cost Tactics
 

air isn't really needed for kraken at all, it's a melee powerhouse with multiple attacks and a pretty nice amount of health, earth may be worth it though.

Re: Low Cost Tactics
 

That depends on which nation you're playing. EA R'lyeh need a water/air pretender to forge amulets of the fish.

Re: Low Cost Tactics
 

Please save this for a Kraken thread. I'm more interested in tactics, not pretender designs. I don't count pretenders as low cost tactics anyhow as they use up an extremely limited resource, design points.

Bow of war on a water mage. Cast Quickness and then fire. Improvements to this tactic include:
-nature or air magic to increase precision.
-sacred with a death bless for increased affliction
-same mage or another casting flaming arrows for AP damage

Re: Low Cost Tactics
 

As I recently found out in my first ever MP game, flagellants can be surprisingly effective against powerful thugs like Fomorian Kings(that took out my normal armies). Worth using, especially when you get them for free.

Re: Low Cost Tactics
 

Now that you mention it, MA Oceania would be pretty good at this, as they have Water and Nature on the same mage (Mermage) and a A1 mage to forge the bows with (Sirens on land). Not to mention the fact that with reduced Water magic, the Mermages have limited utility on land, so this might be a good idea for them. Maybe slap an Air-Shield and Luck amulet on them too to keep them safe.

Re: Low Cost Tactics
 

It seems like flagellants would be more useful if they only cost 1/2 a holy point. Right now, if you're marignon they're not worth it because its too hard to get enough of them in a short enough time. OFC that could just be my inexperience with marignon, or maybe that I just don't build castles fast enough.

Re: Low Cost Tactics
 

Trumanator, not so true. You can make them at any castle with a temple. I would agree with you if they were national only, but they aren't.

Starshine_Monarch, that's a good observation. A good way to keep them from having to buy indy archers, which would be a waste of their precious gold.

Re: Low Cost Tactics
 

I still love Pans for invading assassins (using the black heart). They can cast fairly well. Getting to the Charm spell allows you two tries for each commander, assassination and then if it fails maybe a charm. Plus the Pans toss maenads each turn so you know exactly the turn when the province has no more commanders in it.

Re: Low Cost Tactics
 

Pans are ideal, because they heal themselves of afflictions over time. So you're not crippling a unit, just to get an assassin.

Re: Low Cost Tactics
 

I thought afflictions caused by equipped items never healed?

Re: Low Cost Tactics
 

I like dryads for assassins with black heart. They are cheaper then pans, have awe and can bless themselves. One setup is a dryad with 2 serpent cryss daggers and boots of messenger casting bless, barkskin, optionally elemental fortitude, attack. A different setup which is even more effective IMO is to give them a nature gem and cast swarm. This kills almost any human commander or mage.

Re: Low Cost Tactics
 

HB: afflictions caused by item equipping (eye loss, chest wound) do not heal unless you unequip the item somehow.

AreaOfEffect: It's a good idea to script 'Cast Quicken Self, fire x 4, Cast Spells'. Otherwise when you run out of bullets your water mage will run into melee, and you probably don't want that. It's probably more efficient to make 3 bows and give them to lightly armored indy commanders, and have your mage cast quickness on them (and an air mage can cast aim on them too etc). Your mages can continue to cast spells too.

Re: Low Cost Tactics
 

Pan is much better. Petrify ftw.

Re: Low Cost Tactics
 

If your nation has fire magic, flame arrows are like nuclear weapons in an early war. Get it, use it and abuse it.

Re: Low Cost Tactics
 

I kind of thought of them more like muskets, but that's just me. ;)

Re: Low Cost Tactics
 

Stay Behind Troops order lets the mages decide between casting and firing. I don't know how stupid they'd act, but it could be worth trying if you don't have indy commanders to give the bows for, e.g. when you're raising from the seas to raid land provinces and don't have enough amphibious indeps.

Re: Low Cost Tactics
 

Thanks! I've always been leery of Stay Behind orders ever since my priests went charging off in close formation behind their troops. But I should give it a try when they've got decent spells to cast. And most indy amphibian commanders (merman are the exception) have horrible precision, so Bows of War on mages sounds like an excellent plan for aquatic nations coming out of the water.

So, thanks everyone for these great tactics!

Re: Low Cost Tactics
 

If you have ready access to fire-resistant troops fire drakes can produce some seriously excellent short range archers to fire from behind your main line of battle. If you have a fire+nature pretender, dragonmaster can make the gem costs extremely cheap.

Re: Low Cost Tactics
 

what is dragonmaster?

Re: Low Cost Tactics
 

Dragonmaster is a 30-gem nature ritual (Enchant-8). Makes your drake spells summon 3 instead of 1. Hopefully you've got something better to do with your god than summon drakes. Maybe with a 50%-off enchantment site and national N+(F/E/W) mages you could pull off some sort of drake surprise.

I wouldn't say it's a low-cost tactic though.

Re: Low Cost Tactics
 

In CBM Dragonmaster is a Enchantment level 3 ritual that costs 5 nature gems, making it slightly more cost effective! :)

Re: Low Cost Tactics
 

I can confirm that a Cyclops with poopy armor and an eye shield will beat the heck out of F9 blessed Jaguars all day long.

Jazzepi

Re: Low Cost Tactics
 

Well, AFAIK commanders on Stay Behind Troops will do one of these things:

1) move forward, but only until they're directly behind the group of units farthest back. Archers are useful for this purpose, but in long battles they will run out of ammo and join the melee, and the commanders will follow.

2) cast spells, but they'll try to stay conscious (i.e. they prefer not to go over 100 fatigue). This may be useful because they can retreat, or perhaps with communions.

3) fire ranged weapons if they have them

I'm not sure how they prioritize. In some cases they might move too close to the fighting, but I have mainly used it for my prophets in early game, so I haven't lost any to stray arrows.

Re: Low Cost Tactics
 

Ah, yes, I was referring to the CBM version. Without CBM, dragonmaster is utterly worthless. I also used the pretender for site searching, casting mother oak, and casting gift of health. And the mother oak was later used to empower one of my fire mages to take over the fire drake summoning job.
The fire drakes are range 10, area of effect 1, damage 15 (armor piercing), with 5 ammunition. They're 48 hitpoints, 12 protection so they have decent survivability from enemy archers and accidentally ending up in melee. It's easier to get this to work with frost drakes, but they lack the armor piercing, so aren't as interesting.

Re: Low Cost Tactics
 

But F9 jaguars is just ... well silly.
Mictlans optimum bless is probably an F9W9S6 or an F9W9S4B4 or F9W9S4N4. An no, I don't think a cyclops with poopy armor is going to beat the heck out of that.

Re: Low Cost Tactics
 

N4? on jaguars? well that seems worthless to me :o

Re: Low Cost Tactics
 

I'd rather go with a minor air bless. Especially since Mictlan has no air mages and an arrow fend from your pretender in a decisive battle can be a life savior.