usefulness of the high-end Construction summons?
 

Do people build these at all? I don't see the need to build these (except perhaps the Juggernaut), given that they cannot regenerate in battle.

Re: usefulness of the high-end Construction summons?
 

Mechanical Men seem awesome, what with their full immunity to half of the combat spells. Poison Golems and Juggernauts seem situational. I don't know about Iron Dragons.

Re: usefulness of the high-end Construction summons?
 

Iron Dragons just seem like a lot of fun.

Re: usefulness of the high-end Construction summons?
 

Mech men, iron dragons and especially golems are staples. Everything else varies from ok to almost useless.

Re: usefulness of the high-end Construction summons?
 

Poison Golems are an excellent subtitute for Tartarians. No astral so they can't be mind dueled. Lifeless makes them immune to a bunch of standard spells. And they come with built in Chaff killer in Banefire shield. Just give it a way to get hits back and you are golden.

Give them one of them drainlife standards, boots of quickness and they can keep themselves full of life.

Re: usefulness of the high-end Construction summons?
 

I started to try poison golems as SCs. They don't have magic IIRC but are fully equippable and that banefire aura hurts. Not bad at all as chaff killers. You need to keep those in attack as much as possible as they are unstealthy reapers, you don't want them to stale in your provinces for long killing pop.
I must admit they has a flava too, which helpz.

EDIT Rytek is fast :p

Re: usefulness of the high-end Construction summons?
 

How can a unit serve as an SC without regeneration capacities? Those HPs will disappear quickly against anything but chaff.

Re: usefulness of the high-end Construction summons?
 

Well "those HPs" it has are 85, it has a natural 18 protection, 2 immunities, its inanimate status makes him resist again many spells (also, natural MR 18), and being full equippable and requiring Const9 you should have no problem forging many ways to protect the most of those HPs. Parking it on top of a sieged enemy castle should heal it too by the magical properties of the enemy's lab :)

Even the Gargoyles and the Golems have the same characteristics and are considered among the best SCs.

Re: usefulness of the high-end Construction summons?
 

poison golem is one of the units I would consider bone armor on.

I never use them though, because one of the few nations that can easily summon them is LA Argatha, and their Tomb Oracles are much better. And... Well... just the fact knowing someone has a level 5 spell that is better than the level 9 one makes me just ever unable to use that level 9 spell... no matter which nation I'm playing as. Kind of a heuristic, yah know? If there is a level 5 spell better than this level 9 spell, maybe that level 9 spell just sucks.

Re: usefulness of the high-end Construction summons?
 

I expect the answer to be "for a well-built SC, anything without forged equipment is chaff". I'm not good at the SCgame myself, though, so I'd like to hear actual experience about such combatants.

Re: usefulness of the high-end Construction summons?
 

I'm not definitively an expert, quite the opposite, but I think a major point for the poison golems is that they require you the same Construction path you need to gear them. Ideally, I think you could go for a strategy (requiring a rainbow pretender of course) of aggressive remote site-searching with the spells (thaum 2, conj 2), some evoc or enchantment to keep you up, and then get to Construction 9 getting at one time the SCs and the artefacts to gear them up. You even get, on the way, to build Golems at Const7 and equip them of Const6 gear. Playing it nice you could start building Poison Golems equipped with artefacts around the time your enemy starts fielding medium summons with const-4 gear and alteration to buff them. Maybe a dream but it could be fast.

Re: usefulness of the high-end Construction summons?
 

Well, I personally think poison golems are underrated. SC's have 3 roles:

1) Singlehandedly clearing chaff (and most things are chaff at the stage of the game level 9 spells come out). Poison golems are O.K. for that, cost effective if you don't have access to one of the really good choices like Tartarians.

2) Killing other SCs. Poison golems are O.K. at that to if you equip them propertly. My poison golem won the big SC challenge that was run awhile ago up against the best stuff everybody could build for an arena fight with 20 something entries I beleive. Boots of quickness and a standard of the damned, and they'll take down most things not custom built to fight them.

3) Heavy hitters supporting large armies - mean to be very tough while mages do the killing. Poison golems are pretty good at this to. Properly equipped they're immune to pretty much everything, while nothing is immune to their banefire aura. Great lighting rods to charge out front while your mages rain all kinds of stuff down which the golems are immune to.

All in all, pretty respectable units for the cost if you can cast them.


Iron dragons are good raiders. If you've been stockpiling blood stones and have flying mages (or pass out flying boots) you've got reasonably priced flying raiders who will take out any unsupported PD. Because of their immunities, plenty of nations will have trouble stopping a lone iron dragon even with a mage or two supporting their PD. Throwing a surprise iron dragon to trample the rearmost mages can be extremely effective.

Mechanical men are fantastic in lots of situations and I always assume they're gonna have armor piercing + strength of giant weapons so they'll take down the big fellas to. Storming Caelum's capital? Instead of taking horrendous casualties to thunderstrike send a mage with a rings of lighting and frost resistance and a squad of mechanical men. C'tis fatiguing you out with skellispam while poison makes your very expensive super-elite units keel over - mechanical men to the rescue.

Clockwork horrors are one that people overlook that can be a very nasty surprise. They're size 1 and have two attacks. If they're buffed with weapons of sharpness, strength of giants, mass flight (in a pinch several mages casting gift of flight will work - each square has 6 of them) and optionally quickness they will chew through the toughest SCs in the game, and neither protection nor defense, fireshields nor awe will help.

Manikins/Mandragoras are pretty hard to use cost effectively, but they can be worth their weight in gold as an unexpected surprise when your opponent is storming a castle and didn't expect them.

Everybody already knows and loves the golem.

Crushers are fabulous as linebackers, particularly to stop a hoard of tramplers. Watching 20 elephants stopped like they ran into a brick wall by two crushers while your mages leisurely take them apart....fun.

Lumber constructs.....uh.....well, they're cheap?

Re: usefulness of the high-end Construction summons?
 

i love clockwork horrors, not quite higher end but cheap, easily massed, and very deadly with those construction buffs chucked on.

mindless slaughter anyone?

Re: usefulness of the high-end Construction summons?
 

I've always been a big fan of Clockwork Horrors. People say a lot about imps, but Clockwork Horrors are the Terminator version of imps. I'm surprised they aren't mentioned/used more often, since they're really quite lethal.

Re: usefulness of the high-end Construction summons?
 

Well the clockwork horrors have massive fatique building making them very vunerable for any battle going beyond 4 turns. I personally prefer the mechanical men over clockwork horrors since they have shields and no loss of fatique. For specific planned scenarios the clockwork horrors can be quite useful.

Re: usefulness of the high-end Construction summons?
 

I like Iron Dragons in many situations. They are vulnerable with their low mr to certain counters, but they certainly have their uses.

Re: usefulness of the high-end Construction summons?
 

Oh I didn't realize that they got that much fatigue...so yeah, I can see the limitation.

Re: usefulness of the high-end Construction summons?
 

I like them because they are big and made of iron, and they fly, which, on second thought, is totally ridiculous considering they are made of iron. Well, that just makes them even cooler.

I always make one or two, but I hardly ever use them. They just look cool, and it impresses the peasants.

Re: usefulness of the high-end Construction summons?
 

I'm a crusher fan.

Re: usefulness of the high-end Construction summons?
 

I like fighting the Crusher/Hoburg independents, those are a lot of fun!

Re: usefulness of the high-end Construction summons?
 

The Crushers aren't going to the Super Bowl this year. :shock:

Re: usefulness of the high-end Construction summons?
 

Anyone want to develop a Dom 3 BloodBowl for the win? :) :)

Re: usefulness of the high-end Construction summons?
 

[quote=JimMorrison;645463

The Crushers aren't going to the Super Bowl this year. :shock:[/QUOTE]

Neither is anyone else I root for.

I'm planning on getting through the Pearly Gates on the strength of my poor choice in rooting interests. Upon declaring that I've been a lifelong long-suffering Jets and Mets fan, I expect most, if not all of my other shortcomings will be absolved. There might even be a sainthood in my future. St. Rat! It's got a nice ring to it. :angel :angel

Who knows, I might even get promoted to Dom3 pretender. :D

Re: usefulness of the high-end Construction summons?
 

If you think rooting for the Jets and Mets is hard try cheering the Mariners or Washington State University.

Re: usefulness of the high-end Construction summons?
 

IIRC an equipped poison golem won the last SC to SC (ladder?) battle.
-SSJ

Re: usefulness of the high-end Construction summons?
 

yeah but it was quite specialized to defeat SC's. I never took part in that battle, and don't know how I wold have prep'd for it, but it retrospect it is quite a common tactic to take down SCs with a commander or two with Standards of the Damned behind some linebacker. The tactic is fairly obvious in that respect, and ppl should have seen it comming.

still in this open situation, where I can make almost anything, it is hard to keep that kind of clarity and think of these simple things. Also, with that strat, the fact that it was a poison golem is almsot irrelevant; they are just simply about the only high prot mindless inanimate non-national commander available. A Marble Oracle or GoR'd Crusher could do the same thing.

I don't think the fact that it won in that situation argues for anything other than that poison golems are good at holding a SoD and beating SCs. However, I can do that much cheaper with a standard commander and something to hold off whatever SC is in question. So the Poison Golem is a good gladiator, it doesn't make them a good unit to use in the big picture.

Re: usefulness of the high-end Construction summons?
 

Crushers have lower MR (12 vs 18), are missing the body slot, and GoR is expensive.

Dai Oni/Svartalfs/Bakemono Sorcs/Harab Elders can easily summon Poison Golems, and so can any D+E PoD or Lich etc.

Re: usefulness of the high-end Construction summons?
 

Except they still have a solid antichaffer in the banefire shield. As I understand it, this provides them with crowd control, and the standard allows them thug-control while healing them.

Re: usefulness of the high-end Construction summons?
 

I find this quite shocking. How was that Poison Golem equipped?

Re: usefulness of the high-end Construction summons?
 

I assume boot of quickness + staff of the damed. Plus antimagic stuff.

Re: usefulness of the high-end Construction summons?
 

Boots of quickness/staff of damned, with lifelong protection, if I remember right. Lifelongprotection is almost unfairly effective in duels, and several chassis had a lot of it.

Re: usefulness of the high-end Construction summons?
 

I am not claiming that crushers are a great unit. I think crushers were the first 100+ HP unit I ever summoned and that put them in an elevated position in my lineup.

It does appear to be a somewhat common phenomenon among units and spells for many players.

Re: usefulness of the high-end Construction summons?
 

The Crusher is a great unit because:

*High HP and size draws arrows and magic
*High protection
*Poison resistant
*Inanimate
*Not extremely high MR means it will draw magic attacks
*Relatively low cost
*Comes early

If a nation has all that in a recruitable unit crushers are a waste of gems. Otherwise there is no reason not to use it. MA Ulm has great use of them for example.

Re: usefulness of the high-end Construction summons?
 

My choice:
1. Mechanical Men. Resistant to many spells, cheap, quite effective in mid-game
2. Iron Dragons. Flying, fast and brutal. Useful for "attack rear" and killing of enemy mages. Or trample enemy archers. Or (kind of fun) some of them with Gift of Reason can quickly capture provs, which left unprotected
3. Siege golems. Sometimes they are the only way to capture enemy castles (e.g. longplay vs MA Ulm "Defensive" - he will build his damn Castles everywhere, but with Siege Golems there`s no troubles)

Re: usefulness of the high-end Construction summons?
 

So AI targets low MR units first when it does MR-checking attacks?

Re: usefulness of the high-end Construction summons?
 

Yes, I placed the Poison Golem in the competition, maybe I didn't make it clear with this statement. The poison golem as a chasis wasn't irrelevant, it was ideal for the following reasons:

High base protection. This means it's unnecessary to buff base protection with stone boots, earth magic, etc. This means you can get boots of quickness and armor of souls - or something different if you prefer. Bottom line, with halfway decent armor he's got very good staying power - particularly if you're spamming drain life twice a round.

Banefire shield. This is something you can't otherwise get (well, other than the king of banefires), and has the huge benefit of being effective against fire immune units - imps specifically. Lifelong protections were indeed common in the SC challenge, but then again they're not exactly rare when fighting any blood nation. The banefire shield makes the standard of the damned an option for general use - how many guys can handle chaff control with no fire/frostbrand or shield?

Lifeless/mindless - makes him immune to many of the standard SC counters. If you equip him to give him elemental immunity towards whatever your opponent is likely to use it's pretty much down to running forward and whacking through the banefire shield at an extremely high protection guy who's spamming life drain (as in his HPs are shooting up every round). He's lethal towards SCs. He's lethal towards chaff. He's immune to everything the bad mages can cast (with a few exceptions, which your opponent certainly may not have access to).

No magic - doesn't seem like a benefit at first, but the point is he doesn't need to spend rounds self buffing. Critical for the SC competition, but certainly an important factor for general use as an anti-SC. A secondary consideration is you don't need to do any other reserach, you've got a solid SC with nothing but Cons-9 done.

All in all, look at what you get for the cost! He's maybe not the best unit in the game, but certainly cost effective if you use him properly...

Re: usefulness of the high-end Construction summons?
 

I checked the manual, and clockwork horrors are listed as 0 Fatigue, so I don't see that they would actually build up fatigue...is there a separate effect?

Re: usefulness of the high-end Construction summons?
 

Yes, they have exhaustion 15

Re: usefulness of the high-end Construction summons?
 

Exhaustion 15.

Re: usefulness of the high-end Construction summons?
 

Oh that stinks. Hmmm I don't suppose there's a good spell, or modifiable spell effect, to cure that, is there?

Re: usefulness of the high-end Construction summons?
 

Relief perhaps?

Re: usefulness of the high-end Construction summons?
 

Relief reduces fatigue only by 1. But it probably can be modded.

Re: usefulness of the high-end Construction summons?
 

Not directly, but that is why I suggested mass flight. The only thing you can really do is to try to make sure the battles don't last long.

Re: usefulness of the high-end Construction summons?
 

Baalz: I was thinking in terms of a mod Nation that had the ability to "set up" battlefields in which Clockwork Horrors weren't affected by fatigue. Possibly a PD situation, where the only PD was an immobile, no attack unit that *just* supported Clockwork Horrors, which you'd have to purchase.

To further elaborate on the idea, it might be interesting to have PD that gave you 4 separate units, each of which helped your units fight better on the terrain, but didn't do anything, by themselves.

Re: usefulness of the high-end Construction summons?
 

How do people use Clockwork Horrors, given that their insane Fatigue issues? As throwaway troops to soften the opponent and/or absorb the initial melee rush? Or are there less obvious uses?

Re: usefulness of the high-end Construction summons?
 

I don't use them. But, I agree, that with some of the tactics listed here, they could be useful. You get what? 5 turns tops out of them? If they were flying, then yeah, maybe.

Re: usefulness of the high-end Construction summons?
 

I've never used them, but I've had them used against me and they're pretty lethal for a couple of rounds. That says to me that you need a critical mass so that the battles are quick--which is exactly what you'd expect from wind-up troops. Maybe combine half an army's worth of Clockwork Horrors (~100 horrors) with Mass Flight + Quickening, and set the horrors on "Attack Rearmost". I can see that eating an equivalent-sized army pretty quickly, before they even get any buffs off.

-Max

Re: usefulness of the high-end Construction summons?
 

Don't forget weapons of sharpness + strength of giants! This goes a loooooong way towards resolving battles quickly.

Re: usefulness of the high-end Construction summons?
 

Hrrrm What about one of the nations with Song spells that reinvigorate? with Clockwork horrors just set to guard commander while the commander casts the reinvig song.. Of course I'm not sure how fatigue those spells actually get rid of and also there are the scripting limitations with Dom3 so your mage would start casting other things once your limit of scripted spells was used up... And the oportunity cost of spells your commander could be casting instead. And the fact that you have to wait for the enemy to come to you...

That option sucks I think.. But its about the only way I can think of to keep them going for a little while longer..

Re: usefulness of the high-end Construction summons?
 

Relief does remove fatigue from inanimates, so for a single N gem it helps get a couple more rounds of fighting out of the Clockwork Horrors. For the limited effect you get, I don't think it's worth trying to target them with the reinvigoration songs.

Max's suggestion for Quickening works pretty well. The Clockwork Horrors have zero encumbrance so they don't get additional fatigue from attacking twice. They've got base move 18 which doubles to 36, bringing them across the field so quickly that I think you don't need flight. In addition they get the attack bonus of +3 from being quick, for 4 attacks at attack-15 per horror. If you're facing high-protection units then like Baalz says, Weapons of Sharpness and/or Strength of Giants. But whatever you do, don't put them on Hold & Attack or they'll arrive at the enemy with 60 fatigue already.