Writing Strategy and CBM
 

I play most of games with a group outside of shrapnel forums, and these games are all played with out mods. However, I recently started paying attention to the games being offered in the subforum here, and I noticed a very high percentage of them use the Conceptual Balance Mod. When I write my guides, I write them for Vanilla Dom3, as do most people. Yet, if most people are using a game changing mod (which makes rainbows and growth scales a heck a lot more attractive, for example), then are my guides and advice worth while to people?

Re: Writing Strategy and CBM
 

The guides are very worthwhile.

Re: Writing Strategy and CBM
 

I think an interesting aspect of many guides is not necessarily the specifics of what spells or units to use. One of the most helpful things is gaining an understanding of how to look at the huge list of stuff available to a particular nation and identify the strengths and shore up its weaknesses.

I know there have been plenty of cases where something someone has mentioned in a guide has made me realize that a similar tactic can be used with a completely different nation. I think if you're able to get that from a guide, it doesn't really matter if it's written based on CBM or the normal game, it's always going to be useful.

Re: Writing Strategy and CBM
 

Since the CBM mod is so poorly documented and makes so many minor changes, only a few people can write or even understand a "CBM guide" version of a guide

So don't sweat it. Rest assured that most players are like you and don't use the subforum or mods.

Re: Writing Strategy and CBM
 

Even if not directly applicable (or entirely correct, take everything with a grain of salt) any guide contributes to understanding the game, and I'd imagine anyone playing with CBM would consider what the differences are and decide for themselves.

Re: Writing Strategy and CBM
 

Personal bias much?

I don't think CBM actually is poorly documented. Every change it makes is documented after all - what it actually lacks is guides like the one being suggested in this thread.

Plenty of people do use CBM for MP and of those players, many are longtime veterans, so it's definitely worth considering it as an option.

Also if you were to write a CBM version of a guide, I would hope everyone could understand it, since you'd presumably highlight the ways in which CBM changes things for that nation.

Re: Writing Strategy and CBM
 

Really? I was considering playing a CBM game a few months back and I couldn't find all the changes on the threads dedicated to the mod (just a few changelogs). If there is a list somewhere, I'd be interested in a link.

Re: Writing Strategy and CBM
 

It's included in the attachment as a text file iirc.

I never look at it because, hey, the dm is right there and is by definition more accurate.

Re: Writing Strategy and CBM
 

Thanks. Now that I've found it, it confirms my suspicions that it is literally hundreds of changes whose only purpose seems to be to confuse players who aren't skilled modders.

I assume a text editor is needed to open a dm file, but since I'm not teaching myself to mod the game just to play it with one mod, I guess it doesn't matter.

Re: Writing Strategy and CBM
 

Oh really. Having looked into the mod since I joined a game using it, literally hundreds of changes whose only purpose seems to be to confuse players seems fallacious in the extreme. Whether or not you agree with a specific change the intention can hardly be questioned.

Re: Writing Strategy and CBM
 

I would have said the exact opposite. The more you speak about which spells and units you like and you explain WHY you do, the better when the player will see if the strong point of this unit the guide was talking about has been nerfed, the weak one improved, the spell has gone up or down the research tree...

And well, if one doesn't talk about units and useful spells, what does he talk about in a guide :)

Re: Writing Strategy and CBM
 

I think that's a little harsh. Yes, it contains many changes, but the purpose is simply to take underused spells/units and make them more useful... mostly by making things more cost-efficient. I personally think it does an amazing job at this.

Re: Writing Strategy and CBM
 

Last time I looked, the mod file itself was pretty readable. I'd count that as documentation. I prefer not to play with it for other reasons.

-Max

Re: Writing Strategy and CBM
 

I can only be fallacious if I'm making a formal logic argument. I'm expressing a judgment or even opinion, and my opinions and judgments are as valid as any other opinion or judgment.

But, please note that I am not making a judgment on intent. I don't know or care about the mod author's intent. I do know for a fact that I see a lot of misinformation being spread to newbies because people can't keep CBM rules and the actual game rules separate in their minds. Just by existing and being promoted it lowers the overall knowledge base of the community, which is good for individuals who are good at keeping those rules straight when their MP opponents aren't.

Hence the OP's complaint.

Re: Writing Strategy and CBM
 

Without going into specifics of CBM or any other mod, it's easy to see how multiple sets of rules are worse than one official one. That said, looking it up when joining a game isn't that hard.

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I know it's completely unreasonable isn't it, expecting people to have a text editor. It's like it was specifically designed to only allow elitist hax0rs to use it.

You really are being silly in this thread :smirk:

Edit: By the way I don't think the OP had a 'complaint'. You're the guy who has a problem with CBM (apparently without having ever used it), he was just asking if his guides were still useful to people.

Re: Writing Strategy and CBM
 

I'd just like to point out that hardy any guides written for base game are invalidated by the CB mod. The whole point of a guide is generally to highlight possible tactics for a nation- these tactics don't disappear just because you are using CB. Now of course somone will come along and say something along the lines of 'but CB makes flaming arrows more difficult to get, that totally invalidates my shinuyama guide', but that's not exactly the case. Other game settings besides mods constantly shift how easy some tactics are (for instance the time it takes to reach flaming arrows), CB is just one more of these variables. And in general, if a tactic is good it more or less applies even under somewhat different game settings.

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No, but it is unreasonable to expect anyone to learn all the mod commands and then read the 44KB of plain text just to figure out what changes have been made to basically every part of the game. Considering that this game takes years to master, that just seems cruel.

At the end of the day, I don't really feel good about beating people in MP just because they forgot that a tactic that works well in CMB doesn't work nearly as well in the base game.

But it's just my opinion. Confusion among the player base isn't my problem.

Re: Writing Strategy and CBM
 

I've been pleased to see a considerable move towards using CBM in multiplayer recently. I hope that trend continues, because a lot of work has gone into CBM and I think it improves the game.

Re: Writing Strategy and CBM
 

They don't. You're just being hysterical about it for whatever reason and working on assumptions about modding, dm files, CBM etc without trying any of it.

The general changes made by CBM have been covered various times. They include things like recosting some of the lower tier summons to make them less of a straight-up waste of gems, recosting or otherwise improving light cavalry and infantry that are nearly always a poor choice at vanilla costs, reducing the costs of or improving pretenders that are overcosted in vanilla. And so on.

Re: Writing Strategy and CBM
 

I'd be interested to see if it was a preference or a tolerance that is being expressed, or if people are simply being driven away from pick-up games.

Re: Writing Strategy and CBM
 

Agreed. I've incorporated many of its changes into my own EA SP mod.

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Not that I have done it, but it seems fairly simple to set up a game on LLamaserver so unless QM is bribing people to start CB games, it seems that the trend to CB is clearly player driven. I definitely enjoy how CB makes pretender selection much more interesting given the expanded viability of builds that otherwise would rarely see the light of day. And since I never memorized the stats or costs of units from plain vanilla, it doesn't impact me too much. Switching from CB to PV can be mildly confusing, but eventually you pick up on the differences. Usually you end up wishing you were in CB so you could do something fun that is too expensive in plain vanilla.

Going back to the OP, I probably muddled a few CB and plain vanilla items in the TC guide I wrote, but for the most part I tried to point out relevant differences.

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I wouldn't say "clearly." Moderating games takes a lot more effort than simply playing, so if the people willing to moderate games make CBM required for a game, then others might just tolerate it as the price of not moderating. Or they might just set up other games with friends and shun the community in general.

Sure, llamaserver makes things easier, but I personally would have preferred to have not moderated the last few games I played in and simply been able to play.

Re: Writing Strategy and CBM
 

Well are moderators not players? I assume most are and since they are players and they chose CB then the trend is player driven....

I am moderating a game and the effort is hardly noticeable. If I didn't like CB, I'd just set up a game the way I wanted to play it. Same thing that happens a lot when people want to play a specific nation - they set up a game and they are guaranteed to get their nation, or their research level or whatever. So when you see someone moderating a game, its usually because they are expressing their preference as a player.

Re: Writing Strategy and CBM
 

That is just a ridiculous assertion.

You make it sound as if the desire to organize games, and an affinity for CBM are mutually inclusive, and that somehow the people not organizing the games would rather not have CBM.

1) When I first got here, I noticed the "picky" people being quite outspoken about the use or non-use of CBM, so I hardly imagine that they all decided to shut up when they always got their way (in my observation) when they demanded to play without CBM enabled.

2) CBM does very little tweaking of the "overpowered", rather it just makes new options more interesting.

3) If a player REALLY wants to learn Dom3 well, they will do what I did. To start, I specifically avoided CBM, after making myself aware of the differences. I learned the Vanilla game by playing only in games that had no mods other than Worthy Heroes. Now I am joining a lot of CBM games, and I love them, if for no other reason than that I have more viable pretender choices.

Re: Writing Strategy and CBM
 

CBM is actually a great mod who'se intent is quite the opposite of nefarious - spells that are either often abused, or never useful are adjusted in cost. Dittos pretenders etc.

While you may not agree with the balancing - how can a different way to play the game be nefarious?

Re: Writing Strategy and CBM
 

Wow, what a raisin of shields in favour of CBM :) I heartily agree with it too.
I don't like playing with mods in games the most of the times(I prefer to play them "the way the devs thought it" except some notable exceptions) but CBM does great in making some often overlooked things viable and interesting, and often in a thematic way too ;)
Also it seems strange to complain the "confusion" it is supposed to create among players. The changes are all documented and explained - I am a n00b and I have really no problem in understanding all of them :)

Re: Writing Strategy and CBM
 

I'm not playing any CBM games at the moment. The reason? I want to learn vanilla first so I don't miss out on any "hidden" tactics the devs put in the current balance.

After that I will perhaps move to CBM to abuse those units now "balanced". :)

Re: Writing Strategy and CBM
 

A raisin of shields eh?

I think using CBM makes more sense than it might make to use mods in other games, simply because Kristoffer has expressly said that he doesn't have too much interest in balance. So the standard assumption that the base game must be well balanced doesn't entirely hold. Not that it's too bad either. I really like both vanilla and CBM games, but I must say the fact that many more summons and other options are viable in CBM is attractive.

Re: Writing Strategy and CBM
 

Sounds delicious doesn't it?

Far better than a fig of swords.

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You're just using figs to confuse the newbies, so that you can win. :shock:

Re: Writing Strategy and CBM
 

Seriously K you are whining, apart from the fact wether or not a .dm file is easily opened and read (which it actually is, all commands are clear without even the manual next too it and I always open it with wordpad, about the most basic text editor which comes standard on my operating system.) there is as was pointed out to you a detailed log which explains what was changed.

On the other hand I'd not mind you bothering Sombre more on this topic since he's being annoying about my mods anyway :D

Re: Writing Strategy and CBM
 

What a joke.

Jazzepi

Re: Writing Strategy and CBM
 

I haven't dug into the CBM mod, but from other mods I have looked at, I think it's going a little far to say "all commands are clear without even the manual next too it."
That may be true once you've been modding for awhile, but most of the mods I've seen have been opaque at first glance.

The log with CBM may be good, but that's a different issue.

And focusing on needing a text editor, when the main complaint was not wanting to learn to mod in order to play, is really avoiding the point.

Re: Writing Strategy and CBM
 

The accompanying text file is clear even without 'learning to mod' aka looking 2 or 3 terms up in the readily available mod manual. I suspect people claiming otherwise haven't actually looked at it.

Re: Writing Strategy and CBM
 

I've played a couple of games with the CBM Gods mod and that certainly opens up quite a bit of options in pretender design. I have not played any of the other CBM mods or the full all-in-one version. That said, for anyone who can claim to know Dominions 3 well, switching between vanilla game and CBM game should not cause any great deal of trouble. That's because a true test of the claimed knowledge and skill is an ability to adapt and use the tools at hand, even if slightly unfamiliar.

If the documentation for the Dom3 CBM is anywhere similar to what I made for Dom2 CBM back in the day, it should be well readable, even if it does not list every least little thing in detail. For anyone who seriously intends to play mods or understand them, a basic knowledge of modding is required. This does not mean needing to memorize every modding command. That's what the manuals are for, especially the new ones.

Re: Writing Strategy and CBM
 

To be honest I don't think they play for most nations is really different, you might choose some other summons or use some other spells etc etc but I don't think national troops where changed much. Pretender design is the same idea, most used pretenders are still viable only others have been strengthened too.

And seriously jeff if you read a .dm file 'like CBM editing existing units you'll almost 100% know what is happening, even a completely new nation mod or something even more ambitious like my dom3000 mod you can nearly 100% understand what is happening. Maybe some obscure commands are not fully clear but most just do what they say AND the vague ones usually don't have that much impact. (only really unclear things could be involving pretenders and their costs and the magic paths to see what number goes where and their randoms)

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Yes, if an ignoramous like me can figure it out, then anyone could! :)

Re: Writing Strategy and CBM
 

No need to say I'm right.. that is a given :D

;)