Molotov Cocktails, Whats the deal?
 

So here I am playing a huge epic campainge against the computer as Germany, of course, how can you resist all the different options you have.

Anyway, my tank force is mainly Panzer 3e's and 4e's.


I get Yugoslavia as an oppenet. I run into the main bulk of there forces which is pretty much all infintry with rifles and molotov cocktails. So hell, I decide to retreat my panzer grenadiers and up come the tanks.

I am not historian on the effectiveness of molotov cocktails, but if they work that good why did any army ever use anything else.

Out of 30 tanks 23 were destroyed. Now, it got to the point after the first 10 or so I was starting to experiment a little to see if it was just luck, so I would just move them up to the hex on purpose. But what the heck I think they only failed on assults once or twice. Otherwise it was bye bye panzer. Were bottles of flamming gas really the effective vrs tanks? Keep in mind these were top of the line tanks for 1941-42.

Re: Molotov Cocktails, Whats the deal?
 

Believe me, I know what it's like to lose all your tanks in a campaign ;)

Well I don't know much about that, but remember tank vision is pretty limited so I imagine it probably wouldnt be to hard to destroy it.

Re: Molotov Cocktails, Whats the deal?
 

Molotovs are one of the best AT weapons in the SP series since they are flame weapons. SP has always rated flame highly, though we have actually toned them down as anti tank weapons. That is why infantry elements with flame AT weapons cost more than the equivalent with e.g. an AT mine.

Burning petrol being introduced into the engine compartment was actually rather dangerous, especially to early AFV with no fire suppressant systems and petrol engines.

Cheers
Andy

Re: Molotov Cocktails, Whats the deal?
 

Historically, Molotov cocktails were pretty effective if you could manage to throw them on the engine deck. Burning gasoline leaking through the air intake grating was quite likely to cause the hot engine to catch fire. AFAIK it took quite a long time to develop tanks that would be properly protected against them.

Molotov cocktails were also very easy and cheap to manufacture. Main problem that to use them effectively, you needed to be very close to the tank, which would be rather unnerving and dangerous to the infantry.

Demtrek, I am afraid that there was a problem in your tactical approach - you should not let usually let the enemy infantry to get to the hex next to your tank (remember, you can easily fall back from the way of advancing enemy infantry), and you definitely should not advance that close to the enemy.

In close terrain, it might be desirable to advance an infantry screen one hex ahead the tanks to prevent surprise ambushes by enemy infantry hiding in the bushes.

Griefbringer

Re: Molotov Cocktails, Whats the deal?
 

Retreating your infantry was, to be as polite as possible,really not the best tactical option you could have selected under the circumstances you describe. Tanks without supporting infantry are dead meat unless you are fighting an enemy with absolutely no anti tank capability.


Don

Re: Molotov Cocktails, Whats the deal?
 

Quite

Infantry (including those mounted on HT) spot enemy infantry more easily than the tanks will, proved you slow down to a couple of hexes or so advance.

- Spotted infantry close assault at a worse rate (or rather, unspotted, stationary grunts will ambush your armour better!)

- Enemy infantry may open fire on any dismounted infantry you have accompanying your tanks, thus revealing their locations. They may do the same to any tank riders, and tank riders also help spotting and may act as reactive armour to defuse assaults too.

- Spotted enemy infantry can then be shot up. Pinned infantry assault at a lowered rate, if you really still want to move into the adjacent hex with your armour. But best not to close with enemy infantry with armour - "Track attacks" are really myth, as it can be rather bloody for a tank to charge into a spotted retreating section only to find a couple of adjacent unspotted supports!. Best to shoot them down from 2-3 hexes.

- Pinned infantry assault at a lower rate - repeated for emphasis. Use your mortars to plaster the ground ahead of your intended advance to inconvenience any as yet unspotted enemy grunts. Use the mortars to plaster any retreating enemy sections as well.

See the GG section "Game Play Notes" - e.g. paragraph beginning "Even if you are a 'tankie' you will need some infantry.."

Cheers
Andy

Re: Molotov Cocktails, Whats the deal?
 

I just read an account by Von Ribbentrop ('a Panzer ace').

His tanks got ahead of their infantry and were going through a Russian held village. He felt a large explosion on his tank.

He radioed the tank following him to ask what happened, and that tank commander said something like 'errr... that was me, you had a Russian on the back of your tank with a Molotov cocktail so we shot an HE shell at him!'

Von Ribbentrop asked why they hadn't used the bow MG. Turns out it was jammed, and they believed they only had seconds to save Von Ribbentrops tank.

I thought that example of shooting a friendly tank with HE, was good illustration of how seriously the German tankers took Molotov cocktails.

Re: Molotov Cocktails, Whats the deal?
 

Hi Andy
I see
Ive always wondered if the cost of the 32cm Wurfgerat "flame rocket" of 41 with a HE Kill 59 is a bit high compared to the 30cm Wurfgerat "HE rocket" with a cost of 15 and a HE Kill of 55? Units 458 and 459 German OOB.

Re: Molotov Cocktails, Whats the deal?
 

Those flame rockets are nasty, at least against infantry - at least massive amounts of suppression if you manage to land a rocket in the same hex.

Re: Molotov Cocktails, Whats the deal?
 

Which is why they are priced so high and that's not going to change

Don

Re: Molotov Cocktails, Whats the deal?
 

Would you want to walk around in combat carrying a breakable container with highly flammable liquid on the odd chance you run into an enemy vehicle? Think of all the diving into cover, bullets, shrapnel, jumping on and off transport vehicles, etc.

Re: Molotov Cocktails, Whats the deal?
 

The fragility of the bottles was surely a disadvantage. On a defensive position this would be less of an issue, you could stash the bottles relatively safely somewhere in the depths of your foxhole/trench, to be taken out if enemy tanks try to break into your positions.

But on more mobile operations their transportation would certainly pose its own problems. I have seen some Finnish pictures from Winter War with some soldiers having a couple of Molotov cocktails stashed under their belt. This did not look very comfortable (especially if running or bending), and any sort of diving for cover would put the bottles on the risk zone - never mind the simpler risk of the smooth surfaced bottle just slipping loose and falling to the ground.

As for jumping on and off transport vehicles, this was not a problem for vast majority of WWII infantrymen, who got to do most of their movement on foot, at least when anywhere close to the front line. Mechanised or motorised formations were a minority in many armies.

As for the bullets and shrapnel, I would be more worried about what they would do to my body than to any bottle I was carrying around.

However, I am reminded of a certain story I read in a book about Stalingrad. A Soviet infantryman prepares to throw a lighted Molotov at a German tank that has advanced close. However, just before he manages to throw it a bullet shatters the bottle, the contents of which catch fire and set the poor infantryman alight. Then the now burning infantryman runs to the tank, climbs on the engine deck, and smashes another Molotov that he had on the engine deck.

Griefbringer

Re: Molotov Cocktails, Whats the deal?
 

Oh, the bullet could do serious after shattering the molotov. But being drenched in petrol isn't exactly going to add to your chance of survival. And if you're very unlucky (like the soviet infantryman in that story) you may burn alive. Not a prospect anyone looks forward too. And not a risk soldier wanted too take if they could avoid it.

Molotov's are basically too risky to have around in just about anything but prepared defensive positions. From that perspective just about any alternative that can take out a tank is preferrable to a molotov. So when those alternatives became available in quantity, out went the molotovs (pun intended :angel).

Narwan

Re: Molotov Cocktails, Whats the deal?
 

Oh I see extra suppression, hadnt noticed, very nice thanks for the info.

Re: Molotov Cocktails, Whats the deal?
 

If you are feeling gamey, you can try taking the self-propelled versions of the flame-rocket launchers next time you will be facing dug in Soviet infantry. Once you have located the enemy, fire the rockets directly at them - one flame rocket in the correct hex should be enough to set them running.

Griefbringer

Re: Molotov Cocktails, Whats the deal?
 

Ive used them a bit before a full battery in a restricted space (a town is ideal) followed up by panzergrenadiers is pretty much irresistable. They are worth buying just for the fantastic explosion gaphic anyway, when you see those go off you feel like youve won the battle already.

Re: Molotov Cocktails, Whats the deal?
 

The whole story behind the russian getting hit while carrying a molotov related by Greifbringer is that he was in a fox hole with three other guys being a approched by three tanks. The Soldier, Matrusov (sp?), charged the lead tanks and the described situation occured. After his kamakazi run, the other three tanks pealed off and headed in another direction. Not bad for a one man assult. If you ever get the chance go to the Panarama Museum in Volgagrad (Former Stalingrad) and check out the gallery at the top. It's shown dipicted there. I wish I could post my picture of it.