Orientalism in Dominions
 

Orientalism is the representation of the Orient in and by the Occident. The 'Orient' nations in Dominions would be the Bandar Log nations including Lanka (India), C'tis (Egypt), Tien Chi (China), and Yomi/Shinuyama/Jomon.

Isn't it funny how all these nations, with the exception of TC, are flavored using anthropomorphisms and celestial/demonic themes whereas all other nations are just humans (or giant humans) of some kind? Does this demonstrate the effect of Orientalism in Occidental historical consciousness?

To TC as an exception, historically China and Japan are areas of the Orient that were never fully sublimated to Occidental empiricism. Thus they are always seen as duplicitous in Occidental representations, but rarely sexualized, mysticized, and romanticized in the way that other areas of the Orient were. Incidentally, China and Japan are the only modern competing world powers of the Orient. Both TC and Yomi as relations of their respective nations are still fully under the auspices of Orientalism as TC (and Jomon to some point) is portrayed as very authoritative and hierarchical, while Yomi et al are fleshed out with themes of devious demons. Both nations draw on celestial/demonic themes, things which are seen as irrational in the occident and complete the Oriental representation of these nations.

Not that I don't like the way these nations and their themes were constructed. The thing about Orientalism is that it _is_ the Orient. Its very emergence abolished on originary Orient. But to assume that it alone is responsible for the loss of a pure Orient is fallacy. The western theory that Orientalism draws upon tells us that there is no such thing as a pure history, or even "a history". The relation of these nations in both the Dominions and the Occident as a whole is only a performance then, not a static and deliberate representation.

Re: Orientalism in Dominions
 

Omnirizon, I'm not quite sure what you're arguing, or even if you're arguing something-either for or against, but the language you're using to (potentially) argue it is a little too heavy on the highbrow ideas, and a little low on conversational English, for me to form an opinion on it. It's going way, way over my head, and I'm not seeing the point of why it should...

Could you please reword that a bit, or atleast include some footnotes?

What I can make of it sounds interesting enough that I'd like to talk about it, but every time I try to start, your vocabulary gums me up.

Re: Orientalism in Dominions
 

I hardly think Egypt is consider "oriental".

Re: Orientalism in Dominions
 

Many later nations have non-human themes to differentiate from the earlier nations, which were dominantly humans and humanlike giants. Monkeys, Yomon-Jomi nations, Agartha, animal-headed Fomorians are all new in Dom3. I think one of the reasons is that the human nations needed many new eras, and doing humans all the time was boring, so the new nations were chosen from ideas that would be fun to make - that is, not humans. That'd explain why we only got Eriu and Tir na Nog in a patch even though the theme was in Dom2, and why new nations have so many summons, most of them inhuman.

Re: Orientalism in Dominions
 

When I spent time in France, a Morrocan encouraged me to visit his home country as it was "easiest part of the orient to go to." I think Europe in general has a much broader definition of "orient" then America in general.

As for the original post, I do not think you really thought your initial assumption through. Yes, TC is a human themed "oriental" nation. However, Pangea, R'Lyeh, and Atlantis are hardly human based or eastern.

Re: Orientalism in Dominions
 

R'lyeh and Atlantis are underwater nations, so I chose to not consider them because its hard to be underwater and human at the same time.

Pangaea crossed my mind, but they don't represent a historical nation like most other nations do, but rather a mythical heritage. Same thing for Argatha, Fomo, and TirNaOg; all these nations represent some culture's myths, while that actual culture is represented in human form in another nation. Jomon is able to represent Japan in human form, while Yomi represents their myths; and I understand that this makes my analysis in regards to japan a little shaky. But Jomon only stands in for Japan in the latest age, while they remain represented as devious and demonic in their other ages.


@HoneyBadger:
Postcolonial theory, which Orientalism is a part of, has a long tradition of obscurantism. Postcolonial theory is social theory related to the events of and following colonization. Obscurantism is using a writing style so difficult to read and rhetoric so twisted and thick that text becomes "obscure". This is sometimes done deliberately out of the belief that text must be written in non-conventional ways to avoid hegemonic sublimation. Sublimation is the rechanneling of energy. Hegemonic sublimation is the rechanneling of energy to serve the hegemony. In the context of rhetoric this simply means that rhetoric would only serve to perpetuate the dominant hegemony, even if it appeared transgressive on the surface. Postcolonial theory is in particular sensitive to this because the entire tradition of colonialism, from the actual colonization to decolonization to development, has been to sublimate the colonized to serve the colonizer. Even things like development and aid only serve to eradicate the colonized's culture, modes, and history and replace them with those of the hegemonic power.

OK. now that said. I don't think my writing isn't obscurantist. However postcolonial theory does have its own heritage of words and concepts that it takes for granted. I'll explain a bit...

Occident is the west, Europe and America
Orient is the non-west and non-tropic
"Tropics" is a whole other issue all together. This is sub-Saharan Africa, So. America, and the Pacific Islands.

as Omikron points out, the Orient is much more than the far east. It is North Africa, Middle East, Sinia Peninsula, India, South East Asia, and Far East Asia. This is the Orient because these were the areas of the world that had goods which interested Europe or that they had to travel through to get to those areas of the world.

The idea that there is no Occident or Orient is key however. The idea that there is no "a history" is key. This is simply saying that Europeans constructed the Orient to themselves. This was to justify their behavior towards the Orient, so in turn shaped how they acted towards that area of the world and began to actually shape what "the Orient" was. _This_ in turn acted back on Europe and shaped what "the Occident" was. This is why I said that Orientalism is no longer a (mis)representation but a performance. To have it reflected in a game like Dominions is only a performance of Dominions "Europeaness". The availability of a mythicized Orient is only too perfect material for a game like Dominions though.

What is happening with this theory of Orientalism, the theory of how there came to be an Orient and what that is, is a critique of the constructing of the Orient. More generally it is a critique of the constructing of the "Other". The Other being anything which you are not.

This applies to what I had to say about Dominions like this: All of the Occidental nations are humanlike; these are "Self" to Dominions and its developers. These areas of the world are the Occident from which Dominions and its developers come. All of the Oriental nations are anthropomorphic and/or demonic: Bandar Log is monkeys, C'tis is Lizards, Yomi is demons, Lanka is monkeys and demons, Shinuyama is demon-like. I argued that TC remains human but that this is because China, TC's inspiration, is actually not mysticized and romanticized the way other Oriental areas were, but rather was always regarded as very hierarchical and authoritative. China was the most threatening area of the Orient to Europe, and they couldn't just romanticize them away. Rather Europe developed an idea of China that they could contrast with they way they imagined themselves; as an open industrious and market driven society. We see TC in the game represented with lots of commanders, each one being in some ministerial position or the other. Just like Europe imagined China in the Orient.

I'm against any "highbrow" and obscurantist stuff. But there is still a little background needed to understand Postcolonialism and Orientalism. Did I clear anything up?

Re: Orientalism in Dominions
 

Huh?


(jk :D)

Re: Orientalism in Dominions
 

Yep, here in north we are all giants or dwarfs. Also, couldn't help noticing all those vampires, golems and living statues when I have visited Central Europe.


Or perhaps, I don't know, the devs got ideas from local myths, and instead of blind discrimination, as is subtly suggested in this thread, the playable nations are based on those myths, invented by the local people themselves? Maybe the OP has gone slightly over the top in his political correctness? Maybe he is one of the people who thinks "robbery" is a bad word and should be replaced by "self-iniative caused by an economically challenging situation on personal level"?

Re: Orientalism in Dominions
 

I'm very familiar with post colonial theory (having studied under anshuman mondall - not that he's particularly important, he's just a harcore post colonialism nut) and even I think this is silly. You just decided to find for orientalism in dominions and started ignoring or emphasising to reach that goal.

Besides which the manual specifically acknowledges the influence of 'western myths of the ninja', the stories of Rudyard Kipling etc.

Also India is definitely a 'world power'. They are nuclear and are as important to the world economy/industry as China.

Re: Orientalism in Dominions
 

Jarkko, you missed a great discussion on Political Correctness awhile back. ;)

Omni, you think too much. People say that to me a lot, so thank you for giving me the opportunity to say it. :p

Re: Orientalism in Dominions
 

Of course I'm orientalistic. It goes with political incorrectness. Blood sacrifices demant an orientalistic perspective to work out.

Unfortunately I do not have much background on how the orient percieved their mythic west, apart from the concept of the buddhist western paradise :), so I had few opportunities to be occidentalistic.

Vanir and Jotuns are among the earlier nations in the game though, so I can't claim to be entirely etnocentric, even though I try.

Re: Orientalism in Dominions
 

Jarkko, I don't think Omnirizon's point was intended as criticism in that way.

I would say that in the EA at least, the nordic nations have less human recruits than Yomi do. It's all Vanir or giants.

There are a total of 7 human-led races in the EA, at a quick count. 5 (Arco, Ermon, Ulm, Marverni and Mictlan) are Occidental - TC and Sauro aren't. 3 (Tir, Vanheim, Helheim) are led by very humanoid types - all are Occidental.
Abysia, Agartha, Fomoria, Niefelheim and Hinnom are pretty much human-shaped, if definitely non-human. 2 Occidental, 2 fictional (place them where you will) and 1 from the Orient.

I see 9 non-human EA nations: Caelum, C'tis, Pan, Kailasa, Yomi, Atlantis, R'lyeh, Oceania, Lanka. 2 fictional, 2 Occidental, 5 Oriental.

So by the numbers there does appear to be a bit of a bias. Some of this bias, though, may not be from any Orientalism on the part of JK and KO.

I don't know for sure what order the nations were created in, but I'd guess that the more human and humanoid nations were created first as they generally represent the mythologies and history most westerners are aware of.

After that, I suspect the desire to create new and different nations pushed the search for mythologies further afield at the same time as a desire arose to create something more than 'just another humanoid sprite'.

Re: Orientalism in Dominions
 

I understand the concepts you're throwing around, Omnirizon, but-to coin a metaphor-I wasn't sure what you were aiming them at...

So thank you for atleast elaborating :)

I think that you're correct in some ways, that Dom3 is created from a Eurocentric viewpoint. Ofcourse it is-the Devs are Europeans. As far as Occidental Nations being human, vs non-human Orientals, yes you're correct in that, but you're not mentioning Machaka (Africa) or Mictlan (South America). If Egypt can be arguably Oriental, then certainly more so the Ashanti. And stranger-far more "Other" than *any* Asian country, the Aztecs, who didn't come into contact with any known Europeans, through *any* means, until the 16th century. Either one of them could have been anthropomorphized. Mictlan, for instance, has every opportunity to go fully alien, but never does.

The subject of colonialism interests me, Omnirizon, in part, because of the mods I'm making; and in part, that interest is the reason I'm making those mods:

Aksum (Ethiopia), ofcourse, belongs to the Christian hegemony, and is one of the oldest of all centers of Christianity, but is very distinct from Europe, America, the Middle East, etc. It's also, naturally, a part of Colonial history-in this case, a would-be Italian colony that defeated their would-be conquerors, drove them out of the country in shame, and then sued for peace immediately afterward.

Again, very different and distinct from preconceptions of colonial Africa--they're already Christians, and have been since around the 4th century AD. Infact, it's the second oldest country, after Armenia, to officially become Christian, and it's quite possibly the oldest country-in terms of human settlement-in the entire world. When set upon, they defeated their European enemies, and retained their National identity. Thirdly, they have a very long tradition of female rulership and political-even military-power. So on one hand, a culture very recogniseable to Europe, but on the other, one completely alien in many ways-but still capable of holding it's own.

Ammon, on the other hand, represents a broader, but much more mythological base-a hypothetical "last stand" of indiginous culture against colonial powers (aka the other LA Nations). They're a brutish Nation, with undead and demonic units galore. They practice blood sacrifice and cannibalism, and have a lower than Late Era average technological base, so they're arguably no better or brighter than any other Late Era Nation, and they were (eventually) specifically designed not to be, but they *are* wildly different, in various ways, from the other Nations they're set against. One way I wanted to show this was to give them a thriving giant population. They're completely non-Jotun giants (they're part demon, and worship the stars and the dead), but they arm themselves and conduct themselves along basic Jotunish/giantish lines. Defeating them-LA Hinnom aside-means no more giants in the world. On the other hand, they have access to more gems than other LA Nations-to represent the raw resources of an undeveloped, untamed continent. They also draw from one of the oldest of human cultures-Egypt.

Neither one was created from a Eurocentric viewpoint-I'm an American-but neither was written with "political correctness" or realism, or even historical accuracy as a goal. They're simply personal homages and nods to various cultures, filtered through my own concepts, and preconceptions. Representative icons, just like the other Dom3 Nations.

They both include humans, but they include humans who aren't necessarily acting all that well, and Aksum, infact, includes 1 unit which is partly based on a racist anthropomorphization that Ethiopian Christians inflicted on Ethiopian Jews-that they were capable of transforming into hyenas, because it was believed that all blacksmiths were were-hyenas (being a blacksmith was hereditary), which was a common profession for Ethiopian Jews.

I don't appologise for that use-it makes the Nation more interesting, it educates about the culture, and it's a valid, if immoral, superstition. And racism isn't the whole story-Ethiopians believed that *every* Blacksmith was a were-hyena, not just the Jewish ones. Culture isn't, after all, just the best, most noble aspects of humanity, it's also us at our worst, and us at our most mediochre, and everything in between.

I think it would be hard for anyone to create 50 + Nations *without* doing what the Devs have done-namely, filtering them through their own concepts, and preconceptions, and coming up with some generic themes. It's not so much a Eurocentric, or Occidental (opposed to Oriental) worldview, as it simply is a human factor. We all come from somewhere, and we all view the world from that place. I think the fact that the Devs introduce these cultures, and their myths and spirituality, in depth and to a large audience, says a lot more about how they look at the world than any fantastical "European conspiracy" to subjugate the world.

For a more clear example, compare EA R'lyeh Aboleths to LA R'lyeh. They're both extremely "other", but in terms of power, they're complete opposites. And while there may be some lines drawn between East and West, they're not power-lines.

Infact, considering that Kristoffer is a teacher of religion, and considering that religion *is* one of the greatest dividers between so-called "Eastern" and "Western" thought, I would say if anything, it's simply a facet of his training and mindset, which has been influenced to a greater degree than most of us by that East vs West division.

And I think, considering Yomi, that that's much more a Cinocentric view of a Nation than anything the West needs take responsibility for. China viewed itself as the center of the world-and outside that center lived barbarians, bandits, demons, and giants. I'm reading the "Tales of the Tea-House" epic, and it mentions a very Yomi-like nation of demons and giants to the North.

As far as India goes, that-if anything-is a fine example of taking a literary concept, in this case the works of Rudyard Kipling, and translating them into the game, as a set of Nations. I don't find that irresponsible, Eurocentric, or strange, in that Atlantis comes mainly from the mind of H.P. Lovecraft, another example of a literary "model".

Yes, it would be nice to have some more Nations based on historical India. Somebody's going to have to create those Nations, though.

If anything, I'd like to have a Native American (or even Canadian) Nation-that's one of the few areas of the world that doesn't have in-game representation. But even if they made it about "Vinland", Skraelings, and Lief Ericson's adventures, that would still, to me, be a valid representation of America,

Re: Orientalism in Dominions
 

Actually I didn't subtly suggest anything at all. I outright said it.

Vampires/Golems/Statues simply appearing in the game are one thing, entire nations crafted around themes of "unhumaness" is another. Their is a subtle but consistent caesura between Occidental and Orient inspired nations in this game.

If you read my post, you will see that I am not accusing the developers of discrimination, racism, or any other such thing. I'm not even accusing KO of deliberately crafting nations based upon some myth or misrepresentation. I'm only pointing out the effects of what we call "Orientalism" on KOs work. Notice this:

Take for example that the imagery of Egypt, that shows prominently in the themes of Dominions, is a result of European intellectuals and artists travelling to Egypt and generating art and academic knowledge on Egypt. This IS Orientalism. YOU take that imagery for granted, as natural. But imagine what kind of imagery would the world have of Egypt today had not European artists and intellectuals fell upon Egypt in throngs during the period of European colonization and produced all this imagery and knowledge regarding it? If Europe had not told the world "This is Egypt", how would Egypt have represented itself to the world?

The myths that comprise the imagery of Europe in dominions is built from, as you so correctly pointed out (and thank you for it), from _local_ European myths. Europeans saying what Europe and its myths are. Egyptian myths are actually representations of Egypt by Europeans. All the imagery you have of Egypt, the Arab world, and India are the works of Orientalism. The Orient NEVER had the chance to represent itself, because Europe did it for them. This in turn actually began to shape how the Orient would represent itself. Any "true" Orient is completely irretrievable.


As for being PC. The critiques from Orientalism and Postcol theory is anything but. You think it is PC to tell someone that their conception of history and most of the world is fabricated? Postcol theory actually emphasizes _difference_ over diversity, noting how calls for diversity ultimately benefit the dominant groups. Postcol thinkers like Fanon claim that violence against the West, as a group, is the only means of escaping the yokes of a colonial past. Being "PC" is actually part of the problem to Postcol theory. It is unabashedly rebellious, violent (even if only figuratively so), and anti-theraputic.


Sombre:
The above post should be referencing you too. There is nothing ignored or emphasized to reach my goal. You cannot deny that the imagery of the Oriental nations in the game is based upon the effects of Orientalism, because Orientalism is what has produced this mythic and romantic imagery. If we appropriate that just living in the West, a game like dominions which is fueled by myth isn't going to actively resist it. And without actively resisting Orientalism it becomes hard to make humaness out of it; because it isn't based upon humaness. All of the nations based upon myths in this game use mostly mythic figurines (notice how the ones based upon actual European peoples/tribes/cultures/empires have a lot of actual humans); and the Oriental nations are no exception. It's much easier to make monkeys fit to the irrationalized imagery of India than actual humans.


EDIT:
Oh and Honeybadger I agree that we should continue to use this imagery in a game like Dominions. Dominions is an _ironic_ game, that pokes at history. It gives a deadpan delivery of a zealously religous Marignon right next to an obviously India based nation of romanticized imagery... and monkeys. It's the same kind of resistance to hegemonic narratives that we see from a lot of more underground art that presents itself with a sort of ludic front which hides a deeper and more transgressive rebelliousness (I'm thinking, off the top of my head, of Peaches and her music). It is anti-PC, anti-theraputic, and doesn't attempt to glorify anything. This is the kind of stuff we need more of. I guarantee that those few trolls who drop into the forums raising cane on the "political incorrectness" of Dominions are well grounded and ultimately supportive of the hegemonic western narrative.

Re: Orientalism in Dominions
 

Ah, here you have failed.

The nations needs diversity - its much more interesting to have a nation based around monkeys than nation #44 based around humans - not easier. If there is a fitting myth, why not exploit it - if that myth originates from european demonization or local superstitions (don't all myths stem from someone demonizing something?) or literature just isn't the point and should not be.

But I thank you for your original post + explanations, I actually like to think about where myths originate. You have pointed out something I have not thought about yet, so your post did achieve its goal I guess :)

Re: Orientalism in Dominions
 

One complication in trying to make a less orientalistic approach to for example Japan or China is that orientalism is now a fairly central part of Japanese/Chinese self-image. Movies from china and Japan for example, does little to challenge our orientalistic perspective. Akira kurosawa fits with Jomon like a glove (save the ninjas). Could explain why Dominions is popular in Japan (at least I stumbled upon a japanese dominions fora) Same can be said about China and mythological flicks like Grouching tiger, hero, etc...

The opening ceremony of the olympic games also streamlines perfectly with most every prejudice I have of china. What was emphasized there and is missing in Tien´chi would be chinas past scientific and technological advantage. MA TC could have some kind of explosives for example.

Note that I deliberatly make examples of big commersialized stuff. Of course there is a vast source of different perspectives in china. I just mean that those perspectives aren´t really infuential compared to the post-colonial, even there. If dominions was made in china I´sure it would be very different, but not at all so sure it would be less orientalistic.

Bandar would be more problematic though. It hardly reflects the extremely varied and fragmentized indian culture. On the other hand india could make for a number of dom3 nations with all its different cultures.

One thing I miss is a mongolian theme with shamanism, sheep and horses roaming the great plains. Barbarian kings don´t really fill the spot. I guess there is a bit of the flavour in bogarus...

Bandar exile recruits in certain nations (bogarus for example) to represent gypsies would be interesting as well.

As would more diverse and historical african themes.

But hey, I´d still say Dominions fairly exeptional for a computer game in it´s approach to non european cultures. And I mean that in a positive way.

Very interestin discussion BTW.

Ylvali

Re: Orientalism in Dominions
 

Starring Oscar!

Re: Orientalism in Dominions
 

I think the problem with this is that, while you are absolutely right that the eastern nations are definitely represented via a western lens, so is pretty much ever other nation. I mean look at a nation like Man, they're a highly romanticized notion of medieval England replete with their own (arguably) nonhuman past in the various faerie peoples. Granted, many of these nations aren't nonhuman, so there's something that could probably be said about that, but you can hardly claim that even nations with the veneer of the familiar aren't highly exoticized (or however you spell that). I think the only one that isn't might be Marignon, if only because anyone with even the slightest experience with western history is going to instantly recognize the Christian Fanaticism/Spanish Inquisition themes and there is only so much a developer can play with something like that.

Re: Orientalism in Dominions
 

Anyone familiar with western history would know that "pop. culture images" hardly are realistic representations of western history, or nations.

On the other hand, popular culture images of nations, cultures, and mythologies are a great way to make familiar themes for a fantasy computer game, without having any pretension of it bearing any relationship to actual events except by coincidence.

Re: Orientalism in Dominions
 

Oh!

And another source of so-called "Egypt-as-Oriental anthropomorphism" are the works of Robert E. Howard, in that his 'King Kull' series, which feature a Nation of reptilian/serpentine. Nothing "Eurocentric" about that one, he was American too.

Plus, I personally disagree-even with your Egyptian friend-in the idea that Egypt is somehow the Orient. That just doesn't jibe with me, even if I were to accept the whole "Orient vs Occident" motif.

Re: Orientalism in Dominions
 

According to the dictionary, "Orient" applies loosely to basically everything East of the Mediterranean. Egypt sort of straddles that line, I suppose. But I agree, it's kind of weird to make a distinction that "everything but Europe is Oriental" - as perhaps that was the paradigm of perspective at one time, but (I guess) at least as an American, I never saw that. I was taught that Africa and the Middle East are distinct entities, and the Orient would be all of the East Asian nations, not including any part of Russia or its subsidiaries.

Re: Orientalism in Dominions
 

I think that for the most part Egypt has always been considered the Orient.

Re: Orientalism in Dominions
 

Egypt is the Orient!

There rises the sun.
There lies Heliopolis where the phoenix rises.
There man was born and civilization flowered.
There the mysteries flowered and died again.

Hidden from our eyes by sand.
Hidden from our reach by heat.
Hidden from our memory by millennia of time.

We will never understand the glory of the east.
And so we love it unconditionally.

---

Hmm, it was not my intention to write lyrics, but it fits well with the theme of the thread :) Just wanted to say that Egypt is more orient than even Constantinople in my eyes. I believe the original Orient would have been the Middle East and Egypt to the romans. The Orient is a roman concept, right?

Re: Orientalism in Dominions
 

And egypt = ctis = lizards.

Turns out omni was right. KO is a racist! :O

Re: Orientalism in Dominions
 

I think it just got called that Occidentally.

Da-dum ching!

Re: Orientalism in Dominions
 

This seems similar to the issue where one individual was all bothered by the Jewish representation... was it Hinnom? I'm sure there's many dozen angles where religion, nationalities, culture, and other historic aspects could be found as annoying/inaccurate/offensive/etc .

I'm sure if a real MAJOR issue/conflict did exist we would have seen several huge topics discussing the issue... compared with one or two topics each year with very few individuals feeling there's a problem.

Re: Orientalism in Dominions
 

Huh, quite a thread you all got going here.

One thing that many number-counters/comparers seem to have missed: Caelum is "oriental" also. Their concept and national summons draw primarily from Zoroastrianism, which is basically Iranian.

Plus, whomever counted Caelians as 'non-humanoid' while counting EA Abysia as 'humanoid' is nuts ;)

Re: Orientalism in Dominions
 

Meh, the only "orientalist" problem is that japanese themed weapons are way overpowered (seriously, a katana is just a kind of a scimitar, and a yari is just a spear).

The more serious problem is that the early era japan theme demons get equipment from 1600 or so (katana's and other steel gear) where the other people mostly tool about with bronze age / iron age stuff.

Re: Orientalism in Dominions
 

Like I said in my previous post, I think the OP's point about orientalism is perfectly valid, but I don't think that the game's offensive in the slightest specifically because everyone gets painted with that brush pretty liberally. Yeah, you've totally got the eastern nations given a romanticized version of their mythology, but every other nation has it too, from the ice giants stomping around the frozen northlands to the forests full of faeries and trolls. There isn't a single nation who doesn't have aspects of their culture and mythology exaggerated and brought to the fore in order to make it more interesting. I mean hell look at the Ermor. They accidentally unleashed death itself trying to resurrect Jesus. I honestly don't think that's any more offensive than extrapolating a nation with hindu mythology from the monkey section of The Jungle Book.

Re: Orientalism in Dominions
 

The japanese themed weapons are two handed, so they are actually underpowered compared to many of the other two handed weapons.

Re: Orientalism in Dominions
 

Hmm... I think these were addressed at me.

I did count them as oriental, although it could go either way. The original race is said by the devs to be entirely fictional, with the Zoroastrian summons added later. I lumped them in as oriental just to be sure. Perhaps that's orientalism on my part. :)


I counted Abysia as human-shaped but non-human. Caelum are not human-shaped, by virtue of having great big wings. The groups I made were a bit arbitrary and I guess the edges are fuzzy.

Re: Orientalism in Dominions
 

Actually this is exactly opposite.

Orientalism is a theory of _how_ we represent the Orient; not what is represented.

Using Orientalism, I cannot come and troll around, claiming that representations of the Orient in this game are degrading or false; Orientalism is in no position to judge the quality or truth of a representation. In fact it would reject any kind of judgment.

Orientalism would be entirely unconcerned with the content of a representation aside from demonstrating how it is a performance of Orientalism. If you read my posts, that's all I was concerned with doing. This was not an instrumentalist choice; I was not trying to make an instrumentally political statement where I could gather support for some cause. Theorists of Orientalism would reject this too. (On the whole, these theorists are intellectually elitists, and find the worldy norms of doing everything for an instrumental reason as part of what is wrong with the world. Consider that "Orientalization" happened and was used for instrumental reasons.)

Without going into the epistemics of the acts of the person who was complaining about Hinnom, I can just say that politically most theorists of Orientalism would find the representation of the Jewish tribes in this game as terribly ironic, and the humored ones would probably crack a smile. I've always said Dominions is a game of irony; and that's true.

Re: Orientalism in Dominions
 

Is the Ramayana orientalist ? Just wondering because there are a lot of monkey people in :D

Re: Orientalism in Dominions
 

No but the fact that the Ramayana is a stand in for "India" is. It emphasizes India as mythic romantic religous... and thus irrational. This is the instrumental outcome of Orientalism since a realist Europe felt justified to colonize and exploit a mystified India.

Re: Orientalism in Dominions
 

I don't know, Omnirizon...the more this issue is mulled over, the less it seems intentional (on whatever level), and the more it seems coincidental. And pertaining to Abyssia: Looking like a duck and walking like a duck ceases to apply when said duck is on fire :) Molecular/cellular diversions are just as valid differences-if not more so-than cosmetic ones. And the fact that Niefelheim falls under the same categorical shift as Abyssia rules them out as human, or humanoid. If I met somebody tomorrow that was 24 feet tall, and surrounded by a personal blizzard, my first thought wouldn't be "what a fine example of humanity". At the very least, as much would separate such a being from a "purely, merely" human being as a sentient, intelligent, pacifistic monkey of the Buddhist faith.

Re: Orientalism in Dominions
 

Thus:

I feel I've been mis-quoted. I only ever called the Sidhe/Tuatha and Vanir humanoid.

Re: Orientalism in Dominions
 

Its a fantasy game, with fantasy flavors. Part of the mystique is far away lands, far away people, and things.

To argue that this is post coloninial jingoist heeby jeebyism is well silly. Do we make similar arguments for the japanese FF series, the popular korean series? Or do we just enjoy the flavors the author has written and say.. cool. I enjoy that.

Re: Orientalism in Dominions
 

The central issue, I feel, is that we *are* dealing with mystification/romantification (such is the nature of the game)-but that we're mainly dealing with mystic elements that those cultures have imparted upon themselves, in some fashion. The exception may be India's portrayal, which is, as mentioned, based on Rudyard Kipling's 'The Jungle Book'. Thus, it is a myth, within a myth, within another myth, and much removed from the original material. *But*, not so far removed that it is a mockery. Kipling was stationed in Colonial India, and did his best to tell a story about India-that-was, albeit through European eyes. It's fantasy, but it's responsible fantasy, again-based atleast in part on actual beliefs (the Ramayana and the Mahabharata, for example). So, it's still myth, just a more modern myth than, say, the Norse sagas-which were, once again, transformed into stories by (probably) Snorri Snurluson, which might not reflect precisely the nature of the original material. It's just the best we have.

Snori may be a little closer to the original material, but Rudyard has every bit the right to tell a story as Snori does, and the story told is every bit as valid, and intriguing.

Re: Orientalism in Dominions
 

I think someone else already pointed out in this thread how Orientalism came to shape the media exported from Japan/Korea. That is, what Orientalism told the world Japan/Korea was in turn shaped how Japan/Korea chose to represent themselves to the world.

That's why I said Orientalism is not an accusation that some conception is a mere collection of myths and fantasies, it is a theory (and a critique) of how the Occidental representations became reality.


An allegory that might help make it clear is the proverb:"life imitating art."

The American West that was appropriated by Hollywood and spaghetti westerns was only a mythic representation of the American west. Yet the American west began to don their representations in Hollywood as their own reality.


Knowing this, you can see why any theorist of Orientalism is unconcerned with the content of representation, why they are so concerned with the sublimation of their own work and thus write very obscurely, and why they all tend to be intellectual elitists especially regarding anything which even remotely smells of "mass culture".

I for one don't agree with skepticism towards mass culture. This is simple arrogance and is completely blind to the ways in which mass culture also engages in a sort of "obscurantist" anti-didactic modes of communication that conceal their work or make it totally undigestible to sublimation by the "pop industry monstrosity".

Re: Orientalism in Dominions
 

> Its a fantasy game, with fantasy flavors.

No way! It's a space game, with psionic flavours.

BTW we all love Orientalism, so why deny that dominions is orientalistic. I don't think Omni or anyone else wants to change that. He just wants to show us ourselves, and it tis a beautiful sight :) Look at me! I'm awesome! :D

Sorry! We were talking about you.
Look at you! You are also awesome! :D

Re: Orientalism in Dominions
 

Our mythology is someone else's cutting edge science. As will our cutting edge science likely someday be myth to our projeny. Scary thought, but the only non-arrogant conclusion we can come up with.

Re: Orientalism in Dominions
 

Psionics all taste like purple to me. Even Oriental Psionics.

Re: Orientalism in Dominions
 

Purple tastes like grape kool-aid.

Re: Orientalism in Dominions
 

yeah but not just purpley purple. more like an ethereal whitish nebula purple.

Re: Orientalism in Dominions
 

What about showing us pictures of orientalised dragons ? :D

Re: Orientalism in Dominions
 

Kristoffer's working on them, apparently, but last I heard, they were coming out like those dragons from Wang's Temple of Celestial Take-Out, so he's revising them.

Re: Orientalism in Dominions
 

Wait, wait, can someone fill me in about the backstory gleamed about Ermor? I thought it was more something on the lines of a doom prophecy (The EA ermor augurs have in their description something about sending researchers to Ctis to find out a new power that will help them rule the world, and that they are growing desperate because of a secret end-of-the-empire prophecy)

Re: Orientalism in Dominions
 

EA Ermor has some fairly clear parallels with Rome and the start of Christianity. While the MA Ermor doesn't seem to tie in with history very well, LA Ermor can be interpreted as a what-if variant of Rome, where the Resurrection went off as promised and the faithful from EA Ermor's time are brought back to life. If it weren't for all the "evil-evil all the time" flavor text in LA Ermor, one could even view them as good guys, undead saints bringing about an age where everyone lives forever in peace. But Ermor is evil, so the end effect is a sort of heretical conflation of the Resurrection with the standard undead empire from so many fantasy books.

At least that's my thoughts on it :). If a developer wanted to share the actual ideas behind LA Ermor, I would be very interested.

Re: Orientalism in Dominions
 

I think there might be some merit in the overall theme of your post, but I think there are many things that are highly erroneous. I don't see how anyone can see how China and Japan are portrayed and have been historically portrayed and not see them as being sexualized, mysticized, and romanticized. Many people still think that China is nothing but kung-fu masters and monks, and Japan is filled with samurai, ninja, and geisha. For that matter, most people hardly even think of Egypt or India as being part of the Orient (I'm fairly certain Egypt at least has never been considered Oriental). Much of what you are railing against are things that have actually been taken from the culture which it is based on. And as for celestial/demonic themes, why not mention Marignion? Most of their summons (unique, at least) are various angels and demons. Which I think epitomizes celestial and demonic themes. So are they also an "Oriental" nation?

I think the developers have been pretty clear about their influences in how they constructed the game, and I don't see some vast anti-"Oriental" conspiracy.

Re: Orientalism in Dominions
 

What a surprise! I never thought the "big words" like postcolonial theory,orientalism and obscurantism will be found in a game forum:shock:

As an oriental, I see some ironies in TC & Jomon but no more than those in Ermor and Marignon. The mythical theme and (intended) misunderstanding just make the nations more unique. PC is good, but not funny.

BTW, Is there any plan to make nations base on Persian & Zoroastrianism? I think it's too important in history to be omited...