Dealing with an early N9 E9 Niefel Giant rush
 

What is the best way to deal with an early N9 E9 Niefel Giant rush? Presume that you don't have access to high-level summons or spells that can insta-kill. I see this as an almost impossible proposition. A max Nature and Earth Bless Niefel GIant will re-generate hit points and fatigue at a high rate, and the cold aura won't let your units do enough damage before they die off. The Hinnom giant sacreds may be the only units that can compete mano-a-mano, but my tests consistently show that they lose in an even-number match-ups (and you can't amass as many anyways, due to the pop eating problems and the high resource requirements). Androphag Archers seem to work okay with low Nature Bless Niefel Giants, but max Nature Bless Giants re-generate too fast. Are you pretty much doomed if you start off next to Niefelheim, and he targets you with a max Nature and Earth Bless Niefel Giants?

Re: Dealing with an early N9 E9 Niefel Giant rush
 

A combination of lots of javelins, strength of giants (alt 1) and rust mist (evo 2 or 3) should work quite well. Don't know if thats's enough to stop a determined rush though.

Re: Dealing with an early N9 E9 Niefel Giant rush
 

e9n6 burning ones hiding in their own strong dominion :)

Re: Dealing with an early N9 E9 Niefel Giant rush
 

It's not a direct counter, but Niefleheim has some of the worst PD in the entire game. A mere one milita grade giant per 2 points of PD. So, attack on as broad a front as possible (stealth troops a big help here) and make his economy cry. E9N9 is horrendously expensive in scales, and such armie can only be in a few places at once.

Re: Dealing with an early N9 E9 Niefel Giant rush
 

E9N9 is not too expensive in scales in CB1.3 with a master druid. You can get an imprisoned Dom-6 F2E9N9 master druid with Order-3,Prod-1,Cold-3,Mis-2,Drain-2.

Once the giants go berserk, they will accumulate fatigue. You might be able to skelly spam fast enough the giants will eventually die, since they can't kill the skeletons fast enough.

Their armor is not magical, so Destruction (or Armor of Achilles if you can keep the giants off your mage) will help.

Curse them if you can.

Re: Dealing with an early N9 E9 Niefel Giant rush
 

Good point about the PD, but sometimes you get pressured with no breathing room for your own offensive sallies. Also, Niefelheim can get a double max Bless relatively cheaply, because of their max cold Scale bonus.

Re: Dealing with an early N9 E9 Niefel Giant rush
 

Correction: Niefelheim has *the* worst PD in the game, so OmikronWarrior is exactly right-hit them on multiple fronts. And remember, Niefelheim can't produce that many of their "unstoppable" armies, so figure out where they're going to land on you, and put them through as much hell as you can.

I actually prefer E9 N8 for Niefel. Berserk is great, but not so great for Jarls, especially since I like mixing as many H2 priests in with the regular Niefels as possible, for Sermon of Courage. Combined with Bless, that's +4 to Morale, +6 in my own Dominion-more than enough to compensate for a lack of Berserk on my Sacreds.

That said-if you can skellyspam them, or use other low level undead, that should slow Niefels down long enough to make your archers and javelineers count. Don't ignore your own PD either, the more troops you can hit them with, the better your chances.

Curse spam is a nice idea, combined with low level evocation spells, since a wounded Niefel is a weaker Niefel, and Curse can't be cured.

You also might want to pay for some Ice Drakes-to hold the Niefels down, and Fire Drakes-to damage them. It's expensive, but enough of them in Niefel's way, used properly, will hurt-and they're low level summons available to everyone.

Re: Dealing with an early N9 E9 Niefel Giant rush
 

It depends heavily on your nation.

In a Heat 3 province, a Neifle giant has an attack skill of 9 and defense of 10 as well as a Protection of 9, and than means that even with regen normal national troops can kill them pretty easily. Heck, archers on fire large monster do a good enough job.

If you are unlucky enough to fight them in a Cold 3 province, you need to get trickier. Some things that work are:

1. Stop them from Blessing. If you have fliers of any kind, you might be able to screw up their scripting long enough that they won't be able to bless their units. Assassinating the commander also works.

2. A pile of mages. Lots of low level spells work wonders when six or seven guys are spammming them. Take Sleep, for example: A hit and failed save on a Neifle giant is him being boned if he gets into combat. Spells like Rust Mist, Armor of Achilles, Acid Bolt, and Destruction also allow you to destroy their armor and allow your army to take them out easily. Since he is fielding low numbers of units, you don't need to hit too many times with spells to make him regret rushing you. Even spells like Slime can be devastating to Neifle giants.

3. Massive and fast damage. Calvary and lots of Bless chassis are made to do this, so it is pretty easy ti get together.

Re: Dealing with an early N9 E9 Niefel Giant rush
 

There is an existing thread on this topic.

There were various counters proposed but in general: hold onto your butt. There are very few, if any tactics which can stop them, skelly spam being the only servicable option at low research levels (and even this may not work, depending upon various factors).

As others have noted: their PD is amazingly bad.

Re: Dealing with an early N9 E9 Niefel Giant rush
 

Eye Shields

Re: Dealing with an early N9 E9 Niefel Giant rush
 

Gorgons + eye shields work very nicely--if you have that option.

Putting eye shields on cheap commanders works too, although you'll want something sturdy to save on having to replace the shields.

Re: Dealing with an early N9 E9 Niefel Giant rush
 

Thanks for the thread reference, but the topic is not really identical. That thread assumes options once most spells have been researched and hence lists counters that I too am aware of. My question had to do with early game options, when few spells are researched, and you have to manage with national units, low level spells and items.

Re: Dealing with an early N9 E9 Niefel Giant rush
 

Any nation in particular?

Re: Dealing with an early N9 E9 Niefel Giant rush
 

Not really. I think I can see how Abysia and Hinnom can compete right out of the starting line, but no one else really :(

Re: Dealing with an early N9 E9 Niefel Giant rush
 

In that case, maybe you could join an MP game, and play Nief with an E9N9 bless. See what the other players come up with to stop you. ;)

Re: Dealing with an early N9 E9 Niefel Giant rush
 

Niefel Giants can freeze your troops to death before they do enough damage to kill them ? Try undead troops, they are immune to cold, and if you play nations like Helheim, Agartha or Fomoria, or better, Lanka or Yomi, you can mass them easily to deal with the big guys...

I would favor Lanka and Yomi, because they have priests who are demons, and so can reanimate undeads while your mages cast Reanimate (which is only Ench. 1). You can also summon more undead units with low-level Conj. spells, and Lanka have Host of Ganas (which is only Conj. 2 IIRC), which gives you something like 20 ethereal undead units for only 12 gems...

Re: Dealing with an early N9 E9 Niefel Giant rush
 

Nief. can't deal multiple enemies, try to bribe someone into fighting him.

Re: Dealing with an early N9 E9 Niefel Giant rush
 

Hmmm, I will try undead troops, as well as Skelly spams. I usually do not like to use Blood or Death magic out of aesthetic reasons :)

Re: Dealing with an early N9 E9 Niefel Giant rush
 

A combination of skelly spam and drain life works best from my experience, but I guess you can't have that before turn 20 or so.

Re: Dealing with an early N9 E9 Niefel Giant rush
 

Oh, I see, but do you prefer to be (c)rushed to death by Niefel Giants ? I seriously doubt you would find it aesthetic :D ?

Re: Dealing with an early N9 E9 Niefel Giant rush
 

Personally I just rolled over Lanka myself with Niefelheim. I think that early game (like most of the better bless nations) they are just very hard to stop 1-1, they basicly have invested a lot in the early game and if you haven't you have a huge disadvantage. 2-1 is a good option (it's probably one of the better options for all problems in MP anyway).

Re: Dealing with an early N9 E9 Niefel Giant rush
 

I was that Lanka. My palankas were w9n6e4, if I recall. I tried to swarm with reanimated undead while punching through with palankas, but it didn't work. The same Niefel Jarls that bless the giants also spam Banish quite effectively.

Re: Dealing with an early N9 E9 Niefel Giant rush
 

And with a bunch of death mages to cast raise dead/raise skeletons ? He will banish some of your undead, but if you keep summoning more and more, won't you eventually overwhelm him ?

Re: Dealing with an early N9 E9 Niefel Giant rush
 

It would take a lot of D2 mages to skellywall a niefel group and force them to retreat. It's pretty hard to organise ahead of time and avoid losing most of your territory. It's also pretty unlikely to actually kill them afaik, because they won't fatigue out.

Re: Dealing with an early N9 E9 Niefel Giant rush
 

Two questions:

1. Did you pick Heat 3 and let him come to you (fighting him in your Heat 3)?

2. Did you spam Summon Imps to redirect Banishes?

I play Lanka quite a bit and prefer the W9/N9 bless. Beserking is too much of an advantage to not get even if it fatigues you out, and once you can Wooden Warriors/Mass Protection up Asrapas you don't worry about fatigue ever again.

Re: Dealing with an early N9 E9 Niefel Giant rush
 

These are all good answers, but I have an even better one. However, since I'm currently *playing* niefle, I'm going to hold on it until the game is over.

An ok answer however, is to assassinate. Usually a jarl 30 ish hp leads and blesses the 2-8 niefle giants. Best way is with a fire mage

Assassinate him - and there is no bless and hence no regeneration.

Re: Dealing with an early N9 E9 Niefel Giant rush
 

This is why lanka should play an F9W9n4-6 bless. That extra 6 fire ap from the fire blessing just rocks against niefle - fire susceptible, if you recall.

Re: Dealing with an early N9 E9 Niefel Giant rush
 

Tease.

And so many nations have early access to Fire mage assassins...
Capable of taking a Neifel Jarl? Or even a regular Jotun Jarl? (Who will bless himself first, then probably finish buffing and attack)

Re: Dealing with an early N9 E9 Niefel Giant rush
 

Not sure what's wrong with me but i have never seen skelly spam be effective on anything.

Re: Dealing with an early N9 E9 Niefel Giant rush
 

Well, what you saw probably wasn't real spam then. Just some cheap imported look-alike in a tin can.

Re: Dealing with an early N9 E9 Niefel Giant rush
 

It takes a certain critical mass. 1 skelly spammer works well against very small groups (e.g. an assassin with a Skullface will kill almost any individual commander), but in order to defeat an army you need at least 6-10. The key is to produce skellys fast enough that they can't kill them all before you make more. Eventually the enemy troops fatigue out and then evaporate.

This obviously works best against heavily-armored troops without much missile support, and ideally you have some normal troops as well set to Guard Commander.

-Max

Re: Dealing with an early N9 E9 Niefel Giant rush
 

Does anyone know offhand if the stun effect on Yomi's Ao-Oni works against niefel giants? It doesn't say anything about being a cold effect, and if it does work that could give some pretty decent results.

Re: Dealing with an early N9 E9 Niefel Giant rush
 

Fire arrows will be very, very effective vs. neifel giants, if my guess is right. Especially when combined with destruction.

Re: Dealing with an early N9 E9 Niefel Giant rush
 

Flaming arrows are not early game option.

Re: Dealing with an early N9 E9 Niefel Giant rush
 

I guess to put it another way, every time an opponent has tried to skelly spam me, it has failed miserably. The tactic seems very overrated in MP as far as I can tell. I don't recall the fatigue cost of the spell but IIRC it is rather high so wonder how high a level are the casters usually when you have used this effectively?

Re: Dealing with an early N9 E9 Niefel Giant rush
 

You are right they are not exactly the same. But let's go through the counters in the thread:

lightning (evoc 2)
Skelly spam (ench 3)
Body etherial (alt 3)
Rage (thaum 3)
Paralyze (thaum 4)
destruction (alt 4)
thunderstrike (evoc 4)
flaming arrows (ench 4)
Soul Slay (thaum 5)
Ghost Grip (conj 5)
orb lightning (evoc 5)
Stellar Cascades (evoc 5)
will 'o the wisp (?) never tried it will this actually do anything? (conj 5)
Enslave Mind (thaum 6)
Petrify (alt 6)
living statues (ench 6)
mechanical men (const 7)

I would say that the level 3-4 spells are in play. I have to say that the level 4 spells look more hopeful than the level 3 spells.

Also, since Niefel is so dependent upon it's capital, how about: spies & rain of toads.

Re: Dealing with an early N9 E9 Niefel Giant rush
 

Eye Shield Const 2

Re: Dealing with an early N9 E9 Niefel Giant rush
 

You need a good set of D3 mages. This means, generally, C'tis. A few other nations can do it, but they usually require capitol only mages. As for how many mages, about 1 mage per 10-15-ish human level troops on the other side.

OTOH having a few priests in an opposing army pretty much whoops up on skelly spam, but usually people do not have more than one or two priests.

Re: Dealing with an early N9 E9 Niefel Giant rush
 

Exactly, how many people are running around with D3 mages? And the priest counters are much simpler, cheaper and easier to get. Not to mention lots of mages are holy and can be scripted to banish or the AI will revert to banish after scripting runs out.

I suspect Skelly Spam is a way overrated tactic that worked better in Dom 2. I am glad it is so promoted since I love to see D3 mages that could be casting much more effective spells instead raising a few piles of skeletons that I can wade through for lots of XP. :)

Re: Dealing with an early N9 E9 Niefel Giant rush
 

Yes. This is one of the things that is very effective, blight, rain of toads etc.

Re: Dealing with an early N9 E9 Niefel Giant rush
 

Flaming arrows are enchantment 4. I'd say that they are early game, seeing as how the earliest I have EVER been attacked is turn 14, and I have played rush-target nations before.

However, in the same light as flaming arrows, I would like to bring up Yomi's various oni, several of whom shoot some very nice flaming projectiles at enemies. One can buff them with a variety of buffs.

Re: Dealing with an early N9 E9 Niefel Giant rush
 

Flaming Arrows are Ench-5 in CBM1.3, and quite a few MP games are using that now.

Re: Dealing with an early N9 E9 Niefel Giant rush
 

A lot of it depends on the specific Nation, and whether or not you're expecting to be rushed by Niefelheim. There's usually a good Nation-specific or atleast Pretender-specific counter for them.

Re: Dealing with an early N9 E9 Niefel Giant rush
 

D3 or higher. I don't think of D2s as really skelly spam-capable, even though technically they can cast it in a pinch.

You're right in that skelly spamming is not a tactic that most nations can use effectively--it just happens that I love playing death nations with recruitable-anywhere mages (Helheim, Ashdod, EA Ermor) and for them it's a viable counter to many attacks, e.g. "Defend the library from E9N8 Niefel Giants!"

-Max

P.S. Of course, this no longer applies to Helheim. *Sigh* My poor Svartalfs...

Re: Dealing with an early N9 E9 Niefel Giant rush
 

Well, they'll get 3 casts off and then pass out, and a couple of turns later, do another cast. 20 skellies apiece isn't too bad for a D2 mage, especially if you have a couple doing something else to help those bones kill or rout faster.

Alternately you can just have them cast twice, and then switch to Ghost Grip or Frighten for the rest of their fatigue capacity.

Re: Dealing with an early N9 E9 Niefel Giant rush
 

MaxWilson:

I think you'd really like LA Agartha :)

Re: Dealing with an early N9 E9 Niefel Giant rush
 

Yes, LA Agartha is another of my favorites. Great mages, and Umbrals and Sepulchrals.

-Max

Re: Dealing with an early N9 E9 Niefel Giant rush
 

From my little experience I know three ways of stopping an early E9N9 Nifel rush:

- Stealth - Niefelheim has no answer on early stealthy raiders.
- SC's - either awaken pretenders or recruitables of Fomoria, Hinom will work fine with just some basic items and early buffs.
- Heat 3 scale - this works wonders, but only until Nifelheim starts spaming Wolven Winter (Alt.4) and it's one of the research priorities for them.

I don't belive some of the proposed solutions would work:

- Death magic - great counter to Nifelheim, but later in the midgame (Drain Life, Ghost Grip). Skely spam can stop giants from advancing, but you need to kill or rout them before your mages collapse. Spaming Fear or Terror doesn't work on berserked units.
In early game death works if combined with nature (fatigue spells) or astral, but it's not an easy way either.

- Fire magic - I just can't imagine it working. Despite fire susceptibility on giants, early fire magic doesn't cause enough damage to even considering it worthwhile. Abysia with fire immune, heat aura spreading troops is the only exception.

- Lightning spells - AN damage that causes fatigue additionaly. Works good on paper. In practice many shots won't hit the target some killling your own chaff. Also, lightning spaming is fatigue intensive and after several turns it's over. Still, it could work with Caelum, but you need a lot of mages.

- Cursing and afflicting giants - won't stop the cold aura from killing all nearby not cold immune units.

- Fire bless - would work perfectly on cold immune sacreds. Caelum's Temple Guard with fire bless is a waste though. Other sacreds will die from cold before dealing enough damage. Still, Mictlan and Lanka can make a good use of their fire blessed sacreds if combined with other options these nations have.

- Assassination - could work with Lanka's or Arco's powerful seducers, but it's a risky bussines for very expensive commanders.

The fact is that some nations look pretty bad against Niefel rush (or any rush, actually). Intensive diplomatic efforts always help. :)

_

Re: Dealing with an early N9 E9 Niefel Giant rush
 

Cursing + afflicting doesn't immediately stop them, but it will gradually but permanently sap their strength, and should get them looking for an easier target. The fact is, with a tough, determined Niefelheim targeting you in the early game, you're going to suffer some losses. They're giants! they smash things good!

Re: Dealing with an early N9 E9 Niefel Giant rush
 

just tried in SP

Agartha seems to pwn giant bless rush, magma children are ridiculously cheap and a few of them can fell the giants in no time.

pity agartha ain't amazing vs other nations