Arena fix
 

Everyone says the battle arenas are irrelevent. I agree.

Why doesn't some enthusiastic modder change the statistics on the prize?

I suggest one or more of the following:

1. Give the wielder the ability to send horrors.
2. Give the wielder +2 in all magic paths possessed.
3. Give the wielder 25 forge bonus.
4. Give the wielder the ability to teleport. (Heck, it would explain how he got back to the tourney.
5.
6.
7.

Re: Arena fix
 

I don't agree that they're irrelevant, they just aren't terribly useful--and the arena prize is fine, as long as you're not foolishly putting your SC Pretender into the Arena.

If anything, I'd make the trident 1 handed, and allow the arena champion to recruit or summon 1 battle gladiators.

Re: Arena fix
 

The problem with making the prize better is that winning the arena means that the same unit must participate in the next arena. Making the prize too good would make the first arena more worthy but make all following arenas worth less. Taking the "best fighter" and making it a better fighter would not help the arenas.

Also granting a weapon that cannot be dropped will always be a problem for some arena people. Maybe it should be a misc item, or a helmet. And give it bonuses that are good to have but not applicable to the arena.

Items
3. Give the wielder 25 forge bonus.
4. Give the wielder the ability to teleport. (Heck, it would explain how he got back to the tourney.
would be great ideas. Lets continue along that line.

Maybe add Fortune Telling. (decrease bad events in the province he is in)

Gandalf Parker

Re: Arena fix
 

Replace the item with a better one each time a Champion wins.
Either each arena fight, or only when the previous Champion wins again.

In general unless the item becomes completely overwhelming, knowing the Champion's stats should be enough to give every one else a sufficient advantage.

Re: Arena fix
 

how but just getting some gold/gems/items that can be used in anyway the winning nation likes. This is very easy to balance the power of.

Giving a unit forge bonus or teleportation has unit*prize interaction effects that cannot be controlled. For example, a unit with no or little magic isn't so good with a forge bonus, and a unit that's good for forging would not benefit at all from teleportation. Advertising beforehand what the bonus will be will invariably end up in some bastard sending a unit good at killing things that benefit from that bonus; even if that particular unit he sent will not benefit so much, at least s/h/it gets to kill many of the other players units.

A liquid currency like gold is easiest to balance. Some random gems or items that are the winning nation's to keep would add flavor and make the arena worthwhile.

Re: Arena fix
 

What if one Nation had the ability to "host" the Arena, with say a gold bonus, but would in return have to put a prize in, themselves? That way, there'd be prize variation, and the host would have motivation to put in a good prize, because the more people who participated, the bigger their gold bonus would be. If gold weren't a good enough motivation, gems could be substituted later on in the game.

Re: Arena fix
 

Well a variable prize could be done by mod using the Scenario method. Id have to do a check but Im pretty sure that something shows up in the game.log that could be clued on to modify the mod file with a new version of the Champions Trident. Im not sure how the other awards would be done by mod file.

Edit:
come to think of it...
if the Announcement of the Arena were picked up then the MOD could be changed to downgrade or maybe even remove the Champions Trident so that major beneficial bonuses making it worth winning and having would not affect the next Arena combat. Then after the Arena was decided, the new awarded trident could be modified.

Edit Again:
Brain Fart. As little as I was interested in this subject maybe we could totally Gandalf the thing. Make the awards wildly random with wildly random effects. Every time the 3rd-party program sees an arena announced in the game log it could change the mod that the game is using in order to downgrade the previous award, then assign a completely surprising prize after the arena is won. Now THAT is something that would make me seriously consider sending a REAL competitor to the Arena. I LOVE surprise gifts.

Re: Arena fix
 

Have the arena be "no magic allowed" (only non-spellcasting combatants) and make the prize a lot of money plus XP.

Re: Arena fix
 

Making the trident allow the user to perform a ritual summon is actually a pretty good idea. Since you get a solid benefit from the unit in question but only for the period that you hold the trident. What to summon tho? Need something sufficiently powerful, but not totally unbalancing...

Crushers, maybe? Ether warriors?

Re: Arena fix
 

As a ritual summon it would work as a "free summons" action on the units menu? So it would not be a combat summons and wouldnt affect future use in Arena? Yeah that would work great.

Re: Arena fix
 

WOW Gandalf - thats a GREAT idea!

I've been wondering how to allow people to run their own code modules. And while I can wish that the code was open (perhaps they'll open the code before they abandon the game???)

you hit on a way to do it!

the key being in the preexec code...
so you could run a process that constantly modified game state.
Not limited to just arena changes:

The process code could run other code snippets. - So for example code (perhaps) that would change the arena item, or code that would change difficulty of research on turn40...

Re: Arena fix
 

Check out this (old) thread.
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showt...light=scenario

Re: Arena fix
 

I suggest Bog Beasts.

Re: Arena fix
 

If I can express my opinion, I agree with Omnirizon. Giving a good money prize and some gems (opportunity to diversify) to the winning nation would be IMHO the easiest and less unbalancing way to make the Arena match worthier.

Of course the ideas about random items and summons are interesting but maybe way more unbalancing - making the arena prize a powerful artifact seems unwise, some nations with natural early access to thugs (Fomoria? Niefel? Hinnom?) could win the first Arena Deathmatch and become even more powerful (Fomoria! Niefel! Hinnom!).
Also, forge bonuses and increase in magic paths seem to much more benefit magic users, which seems like a contradiction in terms for the Arena which should be the place for the best fighters of the nations to battle, regardless if they are mages, melee warriors, ranged fighters. (For that, I already see the trident like a quite weird thing, a crown or helmet would have been imho more appropriate, expecially for i.e. someone who wins with the Ethereal Crossbow and now can't win with that no more :o)

Re: Arena fix
 

One thing that is quite irritating is that the best way to win the arena battles early on is to spam something like swarm, skellyspam or elemental combat summons.

It's hardly very sporting is it? It would be nice if there was a magic user arena and a non magic user arena.

Re: Arena fix
 

The only problem with a magic-user arena and a non- arena is if you really wanted you could equip your non-magic user with magicy items like the green eye, nethgul, or a rod and it would basically be like fighting a magic user. Or do the opposite and gear out a magic user with thug/sc items to fight in the magic arena. It's a little difficult to draw a clear distinction.

Re: Arena fix
 

And after all, muscles vs brain is always an interesting challenge :cool:

Re: Arena fix
 

The problem with Money or Gems as a prize is that I cant think of a way that we can do that.

Re: Arena fix
 

Yeah that was why I said it the way I did it. You can mod a magic item - we can't really .. code.

Comments:
1. You could look for the winner of the arena in the turn file, and then have a non playing nation send money to the winner. Sounds hard to automate.

2. I agree with the comments that the prize has to be chosen carefully. However, if the prize is good enough you will see pretenders entering.

3. Not everyone has to agree on this - its just another modification that you can announce at the start of the game.

4. (Joke) Summon Dryads = ).

Re: Arena fix
 

Sorry to rain on people's parades but if you are looking for a fix to the arena that can be done with the tools at hand then the only thing available is item modding...

I still think that a ritual summons is the best way to go. One thing that really stands out about this method is that in order to get the full benefit out of the item, you would need to assign your commander to monthly summoning, which prevents him from researching or fighting, etc. Its an interesting balance point, since you will not want to send your ultimate SC to the arena, only to have him come home and sit in the lab till the next event doing rote summoning.

The question now tho is what should the trident summon? I was thinking that it might be fun if we modded up a special unit like a gladiator. Make it a *really* solid heavy infantry unit. And then make the spell summon a handful a turn - enough so that if you summoned from one arena event to another you would end up with like 20-30 of these guys. Additionally, if you summon in this fashion you time-delay the effect of the trident, since it would take a good amount of turns to build up a full squad of infantry.

Re: Arena fix
 

You can mod items to make gems/gold can't you?
I can see balance issues though...
I thought something that summoned one random unit a turn would be nice (militia one turn burning one the next) and thematic (people coming to learn from the great master of the battle) But it seems impossible to mod. So I vote for one of every gem (excepting blood slaves)every season or something... would rather tie the winner to a lab though.
Oh and making the item misc would probably help too, do you know what happens if a handless mage wins the trident?

Re: Arena fix
 

If I remember right Llamabeast did something for Kingmaker where MA man was in some kind of limbo and all of its income (gold and gems) went to the arena winner. I'm sure he could elaborate more.

Re: Arena fix
 

Perhaps have it be a commander unit, that is not extremely huge in power (Sleeper-ish), but has full slots, and comes almost naked.

So the big combat nations (giants) benefit little from it, but those who don't have strong access to national thugs, would get a good chassis to work with, they just have to invest in gear for it.

Re: Arena fix
 

Thats a good idea Jim. However, if you let it summon a commander, then whoever gets it would be awash in these free commanders. I guess if you gave it no leadership that wouldnt be unbalancing. Would be a little strange tho.

Re: Arena fix
 

Llama set up MA Man and they just staled every turn and then he had them send 2000 gold and 30S to the arena winner for the first round. Can't recall what the prize was for the 2nd round. Surprisingly few nations entered the arena in either round even with the added incentive.

Sad really since it would have been pretty epic to have ~40 nations send champions.

Re: Arena fix
 

There. ;)

Re: Arena fix
 

Cowardice I say!

Re: Arena fix
 

hmmm maybe the problem is not scant rewards but the risk.
Would it be possible to make death impossible in the arena?

Re: Arena fix
 

Arena Tickle Match! :nana:

Re: Arena fix
 

I really like the free summon idea for the trident... and about what to summon, why don´t mod Crossbreeding on it? then the summon would be random every turn...

I´m a little weak in dom modding, how would you add the crossbreeding ritual to the trident?

Re: Arena fix
 

You can't mod the trident to summon anything. I have no idea where people got the idea you can from.

The only thing you can change about the trident, realistically, is what the weapon side of it is.

Re: Arena fix
 

This actually turns out not to be the case. Probably it's a bug, but I've had my champion not go to the arena accidentally, because I was messing around with his loadout in the lab to get ready for the fight. All that happened was that I got the "Poof! your trident disappeared" message when somebody else won the Arena fight.

-Max

Re: Arena fix
 

And sometimes, the Arena is nice enough just the way it is. :D

http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w...inions/Dar.jpg

I think he's a pretty decent thug for Early Fall year 1. He just snagged the trident last month.

Re: Arena fix
 

i think the ton of experience gained is the real life saver for the arena, it equates to +3 attack +3 defense among other things.

also the experience does go towards going into the hall of fame right which gives another buff that grows with time, plus just not send you're guy into the arena next time and the weapon will disappear so you can equip something else.

Re: Arena fix
 

I'm confused. You can mod the item, can't you? And add a ritual spell to it, as a number of other items have....?

Re: Arena fix
 

Item modding is very limited. As far as I know, pretty much all you can do with item modding is to copy them and change gem costs. There may be a little bit more, but nothing that spectacular.

Re: Arena fix
 

It's not even possible to copy items. We can change
1) construction level,
2) path requirements (which also changes gem costs) and
3) item type (1H, 2H, helmet, misc etc).

Champion's Trident made a 1-handed weapon. It can be made a miscellanous item. It can be made a helmet-item that gives a spesific helmet-armor, such as iron cap or black steel helmet.
Regardless of these changes, it will give Quickness, and we can't add new abilities into it.

It's easier to change the Trident with weapon modding than with item modding.

Re: Arena fix
 

Becoming some helmet or crown would really already be a step forward ^^

Re: Arena fix
 

I've made the trident 1-handed in one mini-mod, and made it cause Curse Luck (removes luck effect and makes afflictions more likely) in another. It could also be changed into that magical javeling with huge range and unlimited ammo that isn't used anywhere.

Re: Arena fix
 

I posted over in the mods forum once I heard that this wasnt possible - and sadly that appears to be true. You can mod weapons but not to the extent of ritual spells. The only stuff you can change are some basic stats and also weapon effects (like fire AoE).

Re: Arena fix
 

Well, a Champions crown that granted quickness AND gave a fire shield, or AoE would have a Lot of people salivating, I think

Re: Arena fix
 

If you kill the trident holder in battle, does it get picked up with the same frequency as other cursed items? never been in a battle where i've been able to test it.

more, newbishly...is the current arena prize just the trident or is there a gold reward for the victorious nation?


thanks.

Re: Arena fix
 

An effect that were overtly useful against chaff, and in a "pitched army battle" scenario, but that was not necessarily any great boon in 1v1 SC combat (a al arena) would be ideal. So a small Fire Shield could work, but also Ethereality would be excellent.

Re: Arena fix
 

Improving the arena death match has been desired since the days of Dominions_2, so I highly doubt anything will change at this late stage.

I'm thinking the arena death match is too difficult or too time consuming to be changed otherwise I believe the developers would have introduced a change every so often.

Re: Arena fix
 

The trident will never be picked up when dropped in a battle.

Re: Arena fix
 

It will give Quickness, and we can't add new abilities into it.

No Fire Shield. No etherealness.

Here's an example of what can be done:

#selectitem "Champion's Trident"
#name "Mark of the Champion"
#copyspr 142
#type 6
#armor "Flame Helmet"
#end

This makes the trident a helmet item, with 0 enc, that gives prot 5 (all), prot 20 (head), Quickness, Champion's Trident as a slotless weapon.

More details and a poll here:
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=41087

I think this is the third trident improvement mod I've made. The first one made the trident cause Curse Luck, the second made it one-handed. I didn't properly release them with graphics and such, but there didn't seem to be that much interest in them either.

Re: Arena fix
 

I admit, I am confused as to why you can add "Curse Luck", and you can add "Protection", but for some reason, nothing else. >.>

Actually, while I do not doubt that that little script works - I can't for the life of me figure out why it should, or what the real implications are, as to the actual solving of the issue. :p

Re: Arena fix
 

The curse luck is added like this:

#selectweapon "Champion's Trident"
#secondaryeffect "Curse Luck"
#end

Or, through WEAPON modding, NOT item modding.


I didn't add extra protection to the item.
The only thing I did was use this line:
#armor "Flaming Helmet"
instead of something like this:
#armor "Iron Cap"
Iron Cap works like a normal helmet, Flaming Helmet is special. It adds 5 points of non-head protection in addition to 20 points of head-protection.


The script works because I didn't clear the Champion's Trident. It still has the existing features in it, including reference to the weapon. It's just like Dancing Trident or Horned Helmet or Chi Boots in that regard - any item can add a weapon.

And I don't know the implications etc either. That's why I added a poll to the thread that has the mod. After this, when this thread pops up yet again, I can just point out that no, people are not interested in the arena, or that yes, there is a mod that solves this, and we don't have to have long discussions about the possibilities of item modding.

Re: Arena fix
 

@Endoperez
I have always loved your accomplishments. You are a hacker (in the old good sense of the word). You find some amazing things by just trying them out.

Re: Arena fix
 

Thanks! Now if I only did as much with what I have found out...