Ooh, ooh, new info on patch page!
 

I see this page http://ulm.illwinter.com/dom3/dom3progress.html has been updated.

Looks like some balancing happened to Hinnom. Size 5 chariots! I like that, those horses never did look all that big. And a whole other bunch of Hinnom changes.

And ... drum roll please ...

- R'lyeh dreamlands suffered from the same problem as Ermor once did. Dom-kill rate now multiplied by 5.

:eek:

Re: Ooh, ooh, new info on patch page!
 

I did notice that on the way in this morning, but thanks for posting about it.

The one I liked was this one..
* Shape changing could result in incorrect magic item loss, fixed.

Re: Ooh, ooh, new info on patch page!
 

ah finally the action of cooking villagers in a big pot of stew has a bad affect on the feelings of people.

Re: Ooh, ooh, new info on patch page!
 

Bad news for R'lyeh too.

Re: Ooh, ooh, new info on patch page!
 

I don't think anyone is going to complain about Rlyeh getting some sort of nerf. It had gotten to the point where they were routinely banned from games.

Re: Ooh, ooh, new info on patch page!
 

+1 :D

My Dragon pretender in Victoria lost 2 Horned helmet with with that bug.

A little OT maybe, but I wonder if shape changing causes a morale check or something like that since my dragon SC routed on round 2 just after he changed his shape :hurt:

Re: Ooh, ooh, new info on patch page!
 

The Melqarts went from 2B to 3B, and the Ba'als went from 3B to 2B.

On the surface, that looks like a nothing change, but I think it's actually a micro-nerf. It makes the Melqarts a slightly less-obvious choice for SC, and means they might spend some time in the lab, so you can't specialize quite as much as before.

The Dawn Guard went to 45 gold, but Edi's database already listed it as 45 gold? Error in the database, or error on the Progress page? Anyway, increasing the cost of the Dawn Guard probably makes sense, because they were very good for the price.

Does that mean that Melqarts will eat Ba'als now? Fascinating.

The other nerfs are pretty hard to argue. In fact, they look highly appropriate. Even with these nerfs, I think that Hinnom will remain a strong nation ... and that's a good thing. :)

Re: Ooh, ooh, new info on patch page!
 

I totally agree that R'lyeh could do with some balancing, so I'm not really going to complain. I will want to see how fast a 5 times faster domkill will actually depopulate you. Thematically I never envisioned R'lyeh as leaving totally empty wastelands behind, but rather that you would see a diminished population grieving over their relatives who went mad and marched of to follow the dream. I wouldn't really like to see R'lyeh having tons of 0-population provinces.

The Hinnom changes are looking good, and the mod commands from the previous update (which I apparently missed) also look like they could be really intresting for the modders among us. (And thus also for everyone without intrest in modding who does like to use mods. :))

In what direction did you shapechange? If it was from Dragon to humanoid (the less obvious choise I guess) It might just have brought you under the autorout hp limit?

Re: Ooh, ooh, new info on patch page!
 

I'll miss the Wish bug being fixed. I always thought it was a neat way to bone large games.

Re: Ooh, ooh, new info on patch page!
 

I dont see it as really killing everyone. I see the population loss as signifying that those provinces no longer have regular humans, because they have either been murdered by void cults or void beings, joined void cults, or mutated into horrible creatures. In any of those scenarios they are basically irretrievable as population, and are simply part of the dreamlands. (My own thematic take)

Re: Ooh, ooh, new info on patch page!
 

I agree, Poopsi.

Actually, I think it would be great if LA R'yleh changed pop types. It would be a lot of work, but how cool would it be if every independent unit under R'lyeh transformed into something squishy?

Re: Ooh, ooh, new info on patch page!
 

Ah, well, I suppose I can live with that rationalisation, if push comes to shove.

Anyways, to steal from Micahs reply in the other threat: "Rlyeh is only .1% per candle, so growth will cancel out 6 candles worth of dom, and be no worse than taking 2 death picks even in max dominion" So that would be .5%/candle after patch, or a max of 5% per turn. I'm curious as to how it will play out.

Re: Ooh, ooh, new info on patch page!
 

On the other hand, they could simply be sucked into the void.

VOOOOOIIIIID

Re: Ooh, ooh, new info on patch page!
 

Maybe in the late game there could be some expensive ritual spell that puts a Void Gate in every R'lyeh province with 10 candles-at the cost of say 50% population in all R'lyeh provinces with 5 or more candles. The whole world could get sucked into the Void.

Re: Ooh, ooh, new info on patch page!
 

With R'lyeh domain killing rate like that, most dreamland freespawn should have 0 gold upkeep. Otherwise, a R'lyeh play will simply go broke very soon.

Re: Ooh, ooh, new info on patch page!
 

Works for me. Not so much that there is a huge drop in population, but a definite drop in the productive population needed to support a province properly with food and taxes.

Re: Ooh, ooh, new info on patch page!
 

In my opinion, it is a very serious nerf for R'lyeh. Unlike Ermor, they REALLY need that gold as all mages are very expensive and so is research. x5 multiplier is a bit much, imho. I can't say for sure but I strongly suspect that this change will cripple your economy much earlier than the late game when R'lyeh really starts shining. All that chaff is nearly useless unless properly buffed.
It may sound very strange but this change may very well turn the undoubtedly strongest nation into the unplayable one. You may say that I'm exaggerating the effect of this change but my words are only based on my experience.

Re: Ooh, ooh, new info on patch page!
 

I think we'll have to wait and see how things work out. Eventually, I suspect that every Nation is going to go through the filter of mods like CBM and Worthy Heroes, so a nerf on one hand is a chance for more creativity on the other hand.

Re: Ooh, ooh, new info on patch page!
 

Is this really 5 times the stated rate or is it, like Ermor, they weren't dying as fast as they were supposed to, so it's being fixed by boosting it to the stated rate?

Re: Ooh, ooh, new info on patch page!
 

Being fixed to what it was supposed to be.

Re: Ooh, ooh, new info on patch page!
 

Hinnom popeaters now give some unrest, that's great :) now people don't jump happily into their open mouths anymore :D

Re: Ooh, ooh, new info on patch page!
 

But the solution is still the same: find a tiny province and put them there so that a crap province dies instead of a good one.

But, now they are even better at raiding since they do more damage when they can't hold province, giving then the ability to create unrest so that when people take those provinces back they get less income.

Re: Ooh, ooh, new info on patch page!
 

Hinnom nerf does not look like enough to solve the problem. They still have recruitable SCs, broad magic, blood magic, unique summons, powerful chariots [one less size really won't change almost anything, especially in EA]. They must become a banned nation for EA games.

Re: Ooh, ooh, new info on patch page!
 

Hmm I think it will get them back in the range of regular powerfull nations though. After the changes I really doubt wether they are that much more powerfull than say Lanka or Niefelheim

Re: Ooh, ooh, new info on patch page!
 

It would seem to fix Hinnom quite abit as far as solo play. It took care of most of the things that the AI was able to use effectively.

Re: Ooh, ooh, new info on patch page!
 

I don't think people had actually agreed that Hinnom was any good at all as an AI nation. I think the unrest causing is going to seriously weaken them as an AI nation now, anyway. Expect their cap income to drop real quick.

Re: Ooh, ooh, new info on patch page!
 

K,

maybe, but now to use them efficently you need even more micromanagement and you lose more gold while you move them. It helps I think. :)

Re: Ooh, ooh, new info on patch page!
 

Also, it seems to me that you'd better consider putting them in more than one crappy province, because a bunch of expensive giants grouped in one place together-to me-says "nice target for ritual magic".

Re: Ooh, ooh, new info on patch page!
 

They are immune to most of remotes [like other giants].

Re: Ooh, ooh, new info on patch page!
 

Which one?

Re: Ooh, ooh, new info on patch page!
 

"* Events proof read and fixed "

What's that?

Re: Ooh, ooh, new info on patch page!
 

All of the ones that targets troops in a province :D

Rain of Toads, Leprosy, Melancholia, Fires from Afar, Flames from the Sky, Muredering Winter are especially bad on grouped armies and regular assasination spells are options too of course.

On the other hand Honey, if all grouped in one province you could more easily protect them with a dome, late game that might be the better option (less provinces dying, if you have several large stacks you'll might want to protect them all anyway, possibly less microing.)

Re: Ooh, ooh, new info on patch page!
 

Yeah, right. Remote damage spells against giants with resists. Maybe if you have few hundred gems to waste on few giants...

Re: Ooh, ooh, new info on patch page!
 

Fires from Afar, Flames from the Sky, Muredering Winter etc. cannot kill giants. I guess leprosy or beckoning could work.

Re: Ooh, ooh, new info on patch page!
 

Leprosy. :up::D

Re: Ooh, ooh, new info on patch page!
 

While I think rlyeh's freespawn should have their goldcost for upkeep purposes taken to 0 gold to compensate, I also think Rlyeh needed a /serious/ nerf. They were reckoned to be the strongest nation in LA by far, if not the game. They're extremely difficult to invade, they get free troops and potentially horrible summons, they have great magic and their dominion pretty much hurts others as much as them. This just forces them to be a little bit more aggressive, rather than turtling and winning the game through weight of astral. At least I believe it will. We'll see I guess.

Happy they were nerfed a bit though.

Re: Ooh, ooh, new info on patch page!
 

Leprosy and beckoning have MR checks. Even if you get with some leprosies through, you can just hope for some minor afflictions on giants [and they can always put Shrouds on to get regen working all the time, which may stop getting any of them at all].

Re: Ooh, ooh, new info on patch page!
 

Sombre:

I think that nerfing their astral would be a better idea, they really need a lot of gold for mages and all that freespawn.

And I'd also really like to see some better ways to invade water, now ANY nation in a game makes game more boring. Sitting in water is turtling, clamming etc and trying to invade water is well... boring. You need high level spells and cannot use almost any magic potential when you get over there.

Re: Ooh, ooh, new info on patch page!
 

Event typos have been eliminated. Some events were fixed, such as the blood fountain wailing that causes 10% poploss. That event was tied to 665 Principe instead of 656 Blood Fountain being present in the province. A couple more similar things and roc events being added for all kinds of elephants, not just Elephant 150. Some events gave wrong amount of gold compared to what the text says (e.g. 200 gold for a 1000 old events etc).

Re: Ooh, ooh, new info on patch page!
 

Hinnom has pretty good healers. Who cares about afflictions?

Re: Ooh, ooh, new info on patch page!
 

Is there a good side to that poploss, or is it just a negative to having a blood fountain?

Because, you know, blood fountains aren't great to begin with.

Re: Ooh, ooh, new info on patch page!
 

how do you know this w/out knowing how much the initial army or pd has been nerfed? Hinnom is already not especially better than niefelheim as to pure early game power.

Re: Ooh, ooh, new info on patch page!
 

As long as it's only an event I don't think that it's that much of a balancing problem.

Re: Ooh, ooh, new info on patch page!
 

It really has to do with perception more than reality. Hinnom is *not* stronger than Niefle, fomoria, lanka, sauromatia. In our game of 16 World in crisis - turn 20'ish.. Hinnom is middle of the pack. Caelum and Tien Chi are game leaders.

Re: Ooh, ooh, new info on patch page!
 

chrispedersen:

Both Hinnom and Niefel are beyond any other nation. The fact that in some circumstances [bad player? good cooperation against them? different game settings?] they are not dominating means nothing. Look at the big picture. While Niefel and Hinnom are very strong in early game, in mid they turn into insane mode - buffs + construction for forging + recruitable SCs. At that stage Hinnom is as strong as he had 3x more provs.

Re: Ooh, ooh, new info on patch page!
 

I don't play MPs, but WHY IN THE WORLD DO PEOPLE USE THE FACT THAT CERTAIN NATION HAS DONE BADLY OR WELL IN A SINGLE MP GAME AS PROOF THAT THEY EITHER SUCK OR ARE OVER-POWERED?

To begin with, a single--or even a few games--do not establish a rule. More germane, there are so many factors that go into performing well in MP game, including start position, the skill of the player, and the interplay of alliances.

Was Napoleonic France not "over-powered" on one-on-one basis simply because the rest of Europe ganged up on it and ultimately (after many setbacks) defeat it?

Preposterous and illogical.

Re: Ooh, ooh, new info on patch page!
 

Epaminondas
Nice question about France. No, France was not overpowered, it was Napoleon who was and this is the answer to this discussion as our game is in many aspects similar with those big wars - most of success of a nation belongs to player but while a good player may do well and win with a weak nation, a powerful player with powerful nation often can't be stopped by any means other than ganging upon him.

Re: Ooh, ooh, new info on patch page!
 

Opinions become facts if you get more than a couple of people to agree with you. :)
Its not surprising that MPers want to balance the game for MP.
Its also not surprising that they fail to consider Solo gamers.

To get really involved in the MP games, you have to join the forum. But to Solo play its not such a necessity. You can lurk, and search, for a long time. The sales numbers, and the numbers of forum visitors that are registered vs unregistered tends to show how the numbers really compare. But in the forums its easy to get the impression that the game is mostly MPers of a certain type. If you hang around the other forums, or the IRC channel, you get another impression of a different grouping.

Unfortunately, altho the soloists are probably the majority, they will always be the minority in discussions.

Re: Ooh, ooh, new info on patch page!
 

does this common wisdom hold for Oracles too?

against all common sense, I found a nation build that I really like with an awake oracle (NOT PROVIDING A BLESS!) The nation doesn't need an SC pretender, loves good scales, needs no bless, but likes a high dom to spread scales, and the added pearl income and astral magic just tops off their magic diversity. Additionally, the nation has magic paths with no natural income, and the pearls allow them to bootstrap this income MUCH easier.

amicrazy?

Re: Ooh, ooh, new info on patch page!
 

Apart from being on of your favourite ways to separate dom3 players into two groups, what does that actually have to do with this topic Gandalf?