Helheim advice
 

I could not find an actual thread on Helheim in strategy index, so I'm creating a new one. Could somebody please give some advice on playing this race? It sure looks like a F9W9 bless is the only real option for them, but there are still a few questions:
1)Which sacreds/sacred commanders are most effective?
2)What spells are research priority for Helheim?
3)Does it have any kind of end-game strategy, or is it purely a rush nation?

Thanks in advance.

Re: Helheim advice
 

I don't feel that f9w9 is the only option for Helheim. I do just as well with a F9S9N4 Monolith.

To answer your other questions:

1. I really like raiding with Valkyries and Dis with the bless I described above. The flight makes it easier to get deep inside enemy territory and being sacred allows the units to function well inside enemy domain. Also, the S9 part of the bless works well with flying units. To be honest, I recruit very few Hangadrotts at any stage of the game, I prefer to use every turn at the capital for svarts.

2. If you are talking MP, the game is currently set up where construction is the most important school unless you are getting attacked early on. You can choose other options instead of construction, but your strategy will be based around fighting other nations who have gone the construction rout to outfit super combatants. For Helheim, you don't have much to worry about from an early push, but if you are concerned, they have access to some great evocations and skeleton spam.

3. Helheim has a solid end game. It is crucial to find some indy mages throughout the game to offer some protection to mind hunts and diversify your magic. The end game for Helheim will probably center around undead thugs and later undead and gargoyle SCs, powerful battle mages and dabbling/ empowering in blood. Atleast that is how I do it.

Re: Helheim advice
 

valkyries are the perfect raiders and argueably the most useful recruit in the game, sort of a utility soldier.

with a good bless they are perfect for early expansion

they can fly so can be brought to and from the front lines real quickly as well as being dispatched to any threats anywhere quickly

they are nice fighters and flight means they are welcome in any army, direct them after specific targets like archers or large monsters.

they have stleath and can fly so the enemy never knows where or when they'll raid next

Re: Helheim advice
 

Interesting, thanks. I tend to overlook valkyries, as I always assumed that Vanheim/Helheim are all about sacred cavalry. S9 is also nice, as it will be useful in late game. But I'm still not sure which commanders to use(except svartalves, of course).

Re: Helheim advice
 

e9 hellhirdlings are all you need for expansion. f9e9 are great army choppers. s9 is good for the valks, as has been pointed out. b4 is a good additional bless. w9e9 is another bless option.

Re: Helheim advice
 

W9S9 would leave the valkyries nearly invulnerable (might be overkill though).

Re: Helheim advice
 

I haven't played Helheim since svard's were nerfed to cap only units. They were my favorite nation before that patch. I'm still sulking.

Re: Helheim advice
 

A simple W9 bless works fine for Helheim, and it will still leave you enough points for some decent scales. W9F9 (or most other dual-9 blesses) will leave you with crappy scales. I'd only do that for something like W9S9 or W9D9, because Astral and/or Death magic is so good in the endgame.

(And Helheim already has Death, so that's another point in support of the S9 option....)

The best part of the W9 bless is that when you route an enemy, your Quickened Helhirdlings can chase them down and kill most of them before they escape. Start out at the very back (left edge) of the battlefield with Hold & Attack orders. That gives you the maximum opportunity to chase down the enemy and kill them....

My endgame was Tartarians. However, that was before the Shattered Soul change, so I don't know how that plays now....

Re: Helheim advice
 

From what I see in MP it's very hard to expand with Helheim early on.
Any suggestion as to early tactic, maybe even scales?
Order seems a must for those expensive sacreds and mages
Cold 2, maybe 3
Sloth 3, maybe 2
Growth 2, maybe 1 to get some extra points
Misf. 1, maybe even 2 ( depends on order )
Drain 2, I guess they can afford it with all those death gems.

Would this be reasonable scales? And would this leave room for a S9W9N4 bless or any other dual bless?

Re: Helheim advice
 

Hard to expand with Helheim? I haven't played them in MP, but aren't they still a bless rush nation?
Various nerfs have dropped them down below Neifelheim and Lanka and Hinnom are now more feared, but you shouldn't have any problems expanding. A handful of blessed Helhirdings should be able to take almost any indies.

Re: Helheim advice
 

expanding w/ 5 blessed helhirdlings shouldn't be difficult w/ an ok bless. you can try going all out w/ f9e9 imprisoned cyclops and see if you still can't expand...

they can try drain2 and hope to have skull mentors pull them up... but this is a very risky strat, and I can't whole-heartedly support it.

Re: Helheim advice
 

Well in any game I played Helheim was always almost last in provinces number in the beginning.
They seem to have a problem massing those couple of sacreds the first few turns.
What do they cost, around 100 for the cavalry, and valkyras are 60 I think.

Never played them, so I'm probably wrong, but if would take several turns to make 2 or 3 armies that are capable of taking provinces with no loses.
They seem to have a bad first few turns start.

Re: Helheim advice
 

Valkyries are 60, Helhirdings 90.
If you're going double-bless you won't have an awake SC, which slows down those initial turns.

I just played a quick first year with the classic W9F9 bless. Only 12 provinces, but I'd started fighting an AI and made a couple of dumb mistakes, snuck instead of attacking, that kind of thing.
My initial expansion army w/prophet & 2 Helhirdings from the first turn was still going strong. The others had 5/6 mixed Helhirdings & Valks led by a Vanherse. The weakness is archers. They'd probably do better with a few Serf warriors to catch arrows. That would keep me from sneaking when I didn't want to, as well.

I bought mostly Helhirdings and a few Valkyries when the gold split easier that way. Roughly a force every other turn.

The mixed Helhirdings and Valkyries worked better than I thought. I was afraid the valks would fly up and get killed before the cavalry caught up, but with everyone in the back on Hold&Attack closest so they'd have time to get blessed, the enemy would usually get into the cavalry's amazing range. So the Valkyries would appear next to them and then the Helhirdings would race across half the field and cut them down.

Re: Helheim advice
 

Heh heh. Me too. But I always did like E9D9 Helhirdings.

Don't forget the Bloodstones. Helheim should have a strong Earth gem economy. Disir can escort Iron Dragons to hotspots, and Siege Golems help break down forts that small groups of Helhirdings can't crack alone. Weapons of Sharpness and Petrify are possibilities, although less so now that there are fewer Svartalfs.

-Max

Re: Helheim advice
 

Helheim benefits from cranking up taxes to 170 on the first turn and patrolling. The slight decrease in pop is worth getting over that initial problem with cash shortage.

-Max

Re: Helheim advice
 

No experience playing hellheim at all. But I look at the costs on the units and say.. too expensive to compete with a real bless nation.

Re: Helheim advice
 

Maybe a minor Air bless (4-5-6) would help, as Hangadrotts with A4 able to forge air boosters / staffs of storms are sorely missed (1/160 chance).

Edit : or you can rely on a FW bless to forge an elemental staff...

Re: Helheim advice
 

lol, money is tight for all the van nations, but you can't say helheim isn't a real blesser. a good bless and 4 of those guys will do well against indies. also, stealthy. they're a nightmare to "put down".

Re: Helheim advice
 

OK, I've tested a game with a good E9S9 bless, blessed Helhirdings are great for early expansion, I suffer casualties with valkyries fighting indies set at 8.

But then, what ? When most of the indies are conquered and midgame arrives, what do I do ?

- I've great sacreds, but cap only, so too few to rely on them.
- Normal infantry seems too expensive for what it's worth.
- Still not able to summon lot of stuff.

How do you prepare for midgame ?

Re: Helheim advice
 

I don't think there are too few sacreds to help much. No-one is going to want to attack you alone and you can pretty much trash a neighbour in a few turns by sneak taking a load of provinces off them.

Iirc it isn't like they have weak magic either.

Re: Helheim advice
 

OK, I'll try again. Maybe I've got a wrong impression because I played them poorly in MP. :)

Re: Helheim advice
 

You can always just Empower an A3 to start the bootstrapping. It costs what, 60 gems? Expensive but maybe cheaper than putting A4 on your pretender.

-Max

Re: Helheim advice
 

Or take the Astral bless and use a Ring of Wizardry to boost one to forge the first Air booster.

Re: Helheim advice
 

Possible, but Helheim doesn't have an easy time scraping up 40 pearls (30 w/ hammer). An A4 item will cost 25 air gems (17 w/ hammer). Since the whole point is to forge multiple air boosters and/or Staff of Storms, an initial 60 gem investment to get the ball rolling seems affordable to me. With a starting Air income and lots of mages who can search manually, and/or cast Auspex, you shouldn't have trouble scraping up 100+ air gems over the first couple of years anyway.

Of course, if you've *got* the pearls, Ring of Wizardry is always a good investment...

-Max

Re: Helheim advice
 

yah a4 is nice to take... it doesn't fit in w/ my need for a vicious bless though :(

Re: Helheim advice
 

I've got a game going with a W6E9 bless and it works just fine.

E9 is for me a no brainer as it gives helhirding a 0 fatigue which works wonder with long fights and skele spam...which happens to be so easy to use with helheim.
I got niefelheim quickly out of the game just because I could win the fatigue race.
That's one of the reason I didn't go for more than W6. I don't relish having my fatigue doubled by quickness and going from +3def to +4 wasn't worth the points.

I remember reading somewhere that if you manage to stay alive and standing long enough, you'll eventually win. That's the point of a 0 encumberance + 22def unexperienced, your opponent will eventually either fall under your blows or his own weight.

Re: Helheim advice
 

and an E9 bless is just uber when you have an easy access to earth as the prot bonus counts double with legions of steel or bracers of prot.

Re: Helheim advice
 

Just watch out for swamps and extremely hot/cold dominion.

(Unfortunately, you can't see the temperature of a province before you attack it, unless it's in your own dominion. This is why Niefelheim, to me, is a more stressful nation to play than Ashdod or Lanka, even though the cold aura rocks.)

-Max