OT: US President (US Dom Players only)
 

Note to Mods: Please do not move this thread! I dont care about shrapnel players as a whole, I just want to know what dominions players think.

If you are a US citizen who is capable of voting, I'm curious to know how you are going to vote for in the upcoming presidential elections. I think it will be really interesting to see the pattern of the dominions community.

Re: OT: US President (US Dom Players only)
 

You need more options, there are more than 2 candidates running afterall...

fwiw, I'm voting Nader.

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My bad man - truthfully I havent been paying any attention to any candidates other than the major ones. I'd go back and re-work the poll if I could figure out the new forums system...

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HOLY SH--. Its actually even after I voted. Maybe the thread I started just attracted all the people who don't like the major parties, especially McCain.

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I would be classified as a yellow dog democrat. :banana:

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Im voting my party. The Toggle Party (I made it up).
I dont feel that either major party has things SO correct that they should remain in office for too long. So I tend to vote for whichever party is not presently in the office. They both do good things but after 4 years they can take it too far. Going back and forth seems to balance things out.
Just IMHO.

Gandalf Parker
-- Politicians are alot like diapers.
They should be changed frequently. And for the same reasons.

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2 votes for Nader.

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Gandalf, you really should consider voting for a 3rd party then.

The distinction between the dems and repubs is really quite small if you actually look at what they do once they gain office.

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Gandalf's definitely got one of the more sane and rational philosophies that I've heard over time.

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oops, i accidentally clicked McCain. sorry long day. wow and that was the tie-breaker.

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And here we go again:

licker, can you really say there is little difference after the last 8 years? I felt the same way after 8 years of Clinton, when I felt the Democrats had drifted too far to the center, leaving little distinction between them and Republicans. 8 years of disastrous and embarrassing foreign policies and economic disasters later...

Two quotes wandering around the internet that sort of sum up how I feel:
Republicans claim that government can't work, then get elected to prove it.
Sometimes it seems the Democrats are trying to prove they're as bad as the Republicans, and the Republicans are trying to prove them wrong.

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I'm not voting for either of them, they both want to do things I seriously disagree with.

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What does the last 8 years have to do with anything? 4 years ago if you said the last 4 years you would have had a better point. The republican party (and McCain particularly) have distanced themselves quite a bit from Bush.

My point is that the dems and repubs are seemingly more interested in simply maintaining their own power than actually accomplishing anything. This is more a knock on congress than it is on the POTUS, but I don't care. I'm sick of being told I only have two choices, and I'm sick of those two choices constantly being subpar if not outright horrific.

Hell I haven't voted for a dem or repub since Clintons first term, and that tends to include the local races (though in some of them there is no other choice).

I take it you are a democrat, which is fine, but honestly, what do you think Obama can or will actually accomplish? What has the democratic legislature accomplished, or even tried to accomplish?

Its a disgusting mess and we would be best served by simply throwing out the lot of them and getting rid of the DNC and RNC. Too much money is at stake for these groups to give up the reins of power, and so they continue to simply do what they need to do to maintain their positions, and survive, which isn't good for the rest of us.

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I agree that the two-party system is quite lame. My preference would be to have a primer minister assembling a coalition government as many other nations do. However, we have to work with the system we have - barring a revolution.

Re: OT: US President (US Dom Players only)
 

The predominant problem with that attitude is that door #3 has failed to establish itself as a viable alternative at this point in time. This shortcoming on the part of door #3, and in my opinion the onus is really on door #3, reduces those who choose that option as very minor fringe dissenters.

The country has a past history of new political parties. The Republican party came into existance in the 1850's as an anti-slavery party. The Progressive party, usually known as the Bull Moose party arose in the early 1900's, but didn't generate significent legs.

I agree that one or more new political options are required. But today they do not exist and those who consider voting for the insignificent alternatives are not really dissenters, but merely non-voters in a different cloak.

Re: OT: US President (US Dom Players only)
 

you should have put "US citizen who is allowed to vote". Just being allowed to vote doesn't make one capable of voting, and being capable of voting doesn't allow one to vote.

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nonsense.

Those who continue to propagate the current two party system are either sheep, or delusional enough to think that the lessor of two evils is still somehow worth voting for.

The problem is not with the candidates per se. To be sure neither Obama nor McCain are by default bad people, and neither are they crazy or socialists, or whatever other ridiculous smears have been concocted to fed the media.

The problem is with the system as it CURRENTLY exists. Its meaningless to talk about 1850 or 1900, there is no comparison to the current conditions surrounding how candidates are allowed access to the media, much less access to debates or other public avenues to present their message.

MONEY and POWER are all that we see today, and the RNC and DNC don't want to see it change. Why are no 3rd party candidates allowed to appear in the debates? Do you know when this happened? Do you know why this happened?

The league of women voters used to coordinate the debates, but dropped it as the dnc and rnc began to try to control the events and shape them into the meaningless sound clip fests they have become. The organization which controls the debates today doesn't allow 3rd party candidates to even get a sniff at participation.

So honestly, how would you know if these 3rd party candidates are worth listening to or not? Probably just because you've bought the lies the media and politicians would have you believe.

The governance of this country is a complete joke, and it doesn't matter who pretends they are in charge the end result is the same, 2 parties, 2 candidates saying whatever it takes to get elected, and then simply doing whatever they damn well please since there is no accountability for any of them.

The only way out of this is to break the 2 party stranglehold, and you don't do that by continuing to vote for those 2 parties, you don't do it by not voting (that's completely asinine). You do it by voting for a 3rd party, and giving some of your time and even money to supporting and educating others on the reasons why the 2 party system in this country is slowly but surely destroying it.

Re: OT: US President (US Dom Players only)
 

Wow, licker, get down off the soapbox.

The two party system doesnt have anything to do with money or power or whatever. It has to do with having ONE powerful position to fill. If there were multiple positions, a la the senate and the house, then you have freedom to make more interesting choices. If there is only one tho, then you must organize into the largest possible aggregate body in order to have an impact. Its as simple as that.

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I am not a fan of either McCain or Obama, but Obama really makes me retch and puke. He seems to me the classic politico with no settled principles, willing to do anything to get elected. Ironically, he's a lot like his arch-nemeses, the Clintons, in that respect.

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Unfortunately, edratman, I completely agree with this assessment. But I refuse to vote for someone just because they're slightly better than the other candidate who's actually capable of being elected.

Licker: I disagree that you have to be either a sheep or delusional to vote for one of the major candidates, that is too narrow of a grouping and does not account for all variables.

I also disagree with this - "So honestly, how would you know if these 3rd party candidates are worth listening to or not? Probably just because you've bought the lies the media and politicians would have you believe."

I don't know about you but I haven't heard ANYTHING about the 3rd party candidates. And I'm sure many others haven't either. I would bet more people just don't care about them because they get no media attention. How are we ever going to elect someone who doesn't get any air time? From what I can tell the majority of american voters get most if not all of their information from television. Sad, but it seems to be the case.

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Cthulhu '08

Why vote for a lesser evil ?

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lol! :P

(high fives Spendios)

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LOL nice, spendios

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I was for Nader in 2000, and man, did I learn that lesson. As much as the "they're all the same" rhetoric sounds nice, and even has a lot of truth to it, there's a pretty big difference between the parties, since I don't recall 8 years of wanting to flee the country before Bush was elected.

Voting for a third party is a wasted vote on a national election (though locally they can and do win, which is awesome). If you really want to get some change started and make 3rd parties a viable reality instant-runoff voting seems like a pretty damn good place to start, not shooting for the white house. If people can't even organize enough to get what's a pretty common-sense approach to voting to be enacted I can't imagine actually getting a nuanced 3rd party candidate choice voted into office.

That being said, I think a proportional representation system would be even better, but let's start small, shall we?

Re: OT: US President (US Dom Players only)
 

I agree, my first statement was a bit strong, but was only made in response to an equally strong, and equally limited statement.

As to the 3rd parties...

That's my point!

Do you think the Green party or the libertarian party does not roots? Why is it that you haven't heard what they are saying, other than that you are just taking what is spoon fed to you.

They have been on NPR, they have been in some newspapers, and they have had some limited TV exposure, but the main stream media doesn't touch them.

And why?

Because they know who is cutting them their checks for all the ad time they allow.

Take MONEY out of the political equation as much as possible and you'll start to hear more varied platforms and opinions. European nations do this, sure, they have their big parties, but the smaller parties are also heard from, with our winner takes all congressional design (which isn't necessarily a bad design, it's just been completely subverted by the haves to completely exclude the have nots) if you are not a repub or a dem you get very little monetary support (which is derived from the dnc and rnc) and have very little chance to actually compete.

Look at Obama and his earlier stance on what money he would use for the campaign, and how he completely discarded that stance when he realized he would benefit more by dropping it. Disgusting, and just another example of our politicians doing whatever they want since they know there are no consequences.

McCain is no saint here either, none of them are, that's my point. Voting for them is just casting your ballot for more of the same screw job we've become accustomed to.

For either of those candidates, if you support them and they win, write down what their campaign promises were, and then actually bother to track what and how they go about fulfilling them. Of course most people won't do this, hell most people don't even know what the promises are, other than in some incredibly pointless and generic sense.

Change? What the hell does that mean? It could mean anything, and it probably will since both campaigns are using it.

Re: OT: US President (US Dom Players only)
 

Two words, guys. Judicial appointments.



As one commentator (can't remember who) put it about Obama: "It'll be nice to have a president who has read the Federalist Papers."

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I realize arguing politics is pretty hopeless since nobody ever changes their mind. I will just say that any chance that I might vote for McCain vanished when he picked Palin as VP. The thought of her as president is terrifying and IMHO reflect very poorly on McCain's judgment. Obama is smart and was against the Iraq war when it wasn't cool to be which I think reflects well on his character and intellect. For me the choice is easy and I think a vote for McCain is irresponsible because it puts the presidency one heart attack away from Palin.

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The one good thing about sarah palin is, so far as I can tell, she actually does what she says she's going to do. Even if she decides later it was a bad idea and tries to pretend she didn't really do it.

Personally, I want presidential campaign money to come from taxes and guarantee all candidates equal air time, or at least all candidates who received a certain amount of votes. Of course, it would be better if we didn't have to pay for it, but at least that way it would lessen the power of money to influence the elections.

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Gee, this is starting to look like a landslide. I hope the general election goes the same way.

I already voted (for Obama). Unfortunately, I live in Texas, so that was a thrown away vote essentially.

Re: OT: US President (US Dom Players only)
 

I'm curious about what some of our friends outside of the US (i.e other dominions players) think about the two party system. I agree with what seems to be the general opinion here that it needs some work.

One thing I like about Vermont is that campaigns run on a very limited budget so third parties are better represented. In fact the republican candidate for senate last election spent much more money and ran the first real attack adds we've seen in the state. I was very happy when the whole scheme backfired and the independent won handily (admittedly no democrat was running).

Re: OT: US President (US Dom Players only)
 

Yeah I'm surprised to see so many Obama votes. I had a thought that it would be more even, or perhaps McCain-leaning. Very interesting so far!

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Try something else than the Dom3 forums, then.

Please people, make sure you investigate the candidates for other offices. The president is not a lawmaker, but those running for the house and senate are. The winners of these 'small' elections make up the pool of people who run for the larger national offices. I beg you, please do not allow another Sarah Palin to become a governor, a senator, or representative. Only you can prevent forest fires.

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Really? It's pretty much exactly what I would have predicted... I think virtually every person I've talked politics with on the dominions channel was either pro Obama (or at least anti Mcain) or didn't care at all.

I would suggest gaming in general, and probably Dominions themes in particular filters out a lot of conservative folk.

Re: OT: US President (US Dom Players only)
 

nonsense.

Those who continue to propagate the current two party system are either sheep, or delusional enough to think that the lessor of two evils is still somehow worth voting for.


Nonsense yourself.

I've studied enough politics to have a minor in it. And have been around the world and studied various forms of government. The two party system has advantages (and disadvantages) over a multi party system and I for one am more than content in it.

I am actually surprised to see so many mccain supporters - and somewhat heartened by it. Youth and online tends to be strongly in favor of Obama - perhaps gamers are more rational (or conservative).

Re: OT: US President (US Dom Players only)
 

I would be happy to have Palin as my governor, senator or representative. Just as most of her constituents are.
Despite your opinion of her, prior to the start of this election campaign she had the highest sustained favorability rating of any governer in history.

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Are you implying that those who don't vote for McCain are somehow less rational. Not only is that implication not sound, it is also invalid.

Your last statement sounds like a canned comment, but I'll indulge. I see little connection between favorablility and qualification. Please explain why she is suitable for any political position.

Re: OT: US President (US Dom Players only)
 

Oy, Politics.

I have an actual button with Spendios Cthulhu slogan. :D

It is true that the parties, as game theory would suggest, are less different than we would like, but ever since reagan got elected in 1980, after making a deal to *delay* the release of the Iranian hostages, and then getting caught giving them arms as the back end of a quid pro quo, it is VERY apparent that the parties are not the same.

The previously unimaginable horror show that Chimpy, {Gombe division} Inc. (err, I mean the Bush administration) has ushered in is just the second go around farce.

The funny thing about wanting the flee the country post-bush is ...that as a friend of mine pointed out, we don't have to move, very soon we'll be living in Peronist Brazil.

My wife and I have already voted for Obama in texas. (HAHAHA... pointless I know) He may disappoint us, or prove incapable of dislodging the corporate overlordship once he gets in.... but the certainty of disaster and perpetual war with McCain and his VP "W-in-a-skirt" makes it not a difficult choice.

Particularly as the republicans stole the last two elections, have gratuitously killed over a million iraqis and have nothing but obfuscation, vote suppression and racist-dog whistle fear-mongering to recommend them. Plus the McCain of this campaign makes Mitt Romney look principled.

We have a 4 month old... the world will be bad enough when he grows up, ...we don't have to make it worse by pretending political choices don't matter, assuming you believe the election isn't controlled by a consortium of Di-e-boldic imps inside the voting machines.

Conservatism is one thing, I think history has proven conservatives are almost always wrong, but it's plausible in its no longer practiced Burkean form... these people aren't conservatives, they are plutocratic fascists.

And that's all I've got to say about that....:doh:

Re: OT: US President (US Dom Players only)
 

If you're surprised at the poll results, then you probably didn't see the pres election thread I started a month or so ago. That certainly rattled the hornets' nest, particularly as I was supporting McCain.

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Wow rabelais...

And I thought my opinion would be the most off kilter in this thread...

Bravo, you've swallowed the moveon.org lines and can puke them up at will, I'm sure we'll be much better off with a group of people who don't bother to investigate the issues, but merely parrot whatever their 'intellectual' masters tell them.

And no, I'm not a supporter of Bush or McCain and have not and will not vote for them.

My guess is you would be quick to defend people like Pelosi and Reid, not to mention Jefferson just on general principles. They must be good people because they are not republicans!!!

Sheep, as I already said.

Its odd though, I was expecting at least one person to mention Ron Paul...

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WARNING!
When a topic shifts from a topic to individuals it is in danger of disappearing

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In the grand scheme of bureaucratic governance, two things have seemed to emerge to become more and more true in the past few decades -

1) The Democrats are bad.

2) The Republicans are even worse.


This trend, which seems to be deepening, is pushing everyone towards a third conclusion -

3) Maybe we need to change our entire system before we will actually experience these "new ideas" and this "change" that everyone seems to agree that we need, but can never agree on how to do it because the people elected to espouse it (Repubs and Demos), look towards their own needs before they look to the needs of this once flourishing and progressive nation.


However, as our hands get forced, without a viable third option (it must be someone who captures the love and imagination of the vast majority of the people - no easy task), I, like many others, voted for Obama out of little more than abject terror at the thought of even 4 years of McCain (bad enough on their own, but following the last 8 it could be disastrous).

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The current crop of republicans are hardly republicans. What they represent is indeed terrible, but I'm not convinced that the democrats solutions are any better.

Goldwater republicans would be a welcome sight, but the party has been corrupted and those few who still preach and care about fiscal conservatism have essentially been cast aside for what used to be the moral majority type fringe.

We don't need someone to capture imagination, that's what Obama is trying to do, we need someone who actually has some basis for believing them when they say what they are going to do, and how they are going to do it.

Michael Bloomberg is perhaps the closest thing we have to this, but he's not running... yet...

When you vote for the lesser of two evils, you're still voting for evil. Man up, and don't buy the line that your vote doesn't count, because if you vote for democrat or republican, truly, your vote was wasted.

-Gandalf, understood, but its politics if someone spews a load of tripe they should be called on it (and that goes for me as well), I for one am able to keep my feelings about it separate from anything else. Though I am much more comfortable in a completely open forum setting, I understand that others do not want that.

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I didn't say "someone who can lead us off to fantasyland". Too many people look on politics with a dull, glazed-over, and disenchanted eye. They need someone whom they can BELIEVE will truly change the way that things work, for the betterment of all. Obviously, they need some kind of substance, they need something to offer us that we can believe in - both the vision and the inspiration are necessary.


Nonsense. That's like saying that when you're imprisoned, and they feed you, that eating that food is accepting a life of imprisonment. If I let my principles allow McCain to win (say the vote went 40% Mccain, 30% Obama, 30% Nader), then I will have failed as a citizen, because people like McCain are the greatest threat that this nation faces.


We're in a sinking ship. You have 3 choices for votes this election - continue sinking, with McCain - a little bucket, with Obama, - or a brand new ship which isn't going to come in our stocking this year.

I'll take the bucket while more people figure out that we need the new ship.

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I don't have any faith Obama has what it takes to be president. I'm not happy about McCain either, but at least he has stronger experience in the military and businesses.

Any speeches about raising taxes for those of high income have never worked because there's way too many loop holes... so many the wealthy pay multi-certified accountants to find them otherwise the wealthy would just use H&R Block or equivalent. I'm sure many high income employees are provided types of payments which are overseas and non-taxable as well. The wealthy actually fuel each others income via charities(tax right off), investments(losses are tax right offs), advertising(tax right offs), etc., .

The only real way to effectively tax the wealthy would be a flat tax rate. Yet this will never happen because too many government employees rely on the complex tax system for jobs.

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At what cost does this "experience" come? I honestly don't believe that anyone over 60 is going to be effectual at meeting the challenges of this rapidly changing modern world. We need someone with flexibility and ingenuity far more than we need someone with some tremendous depth of experience in running the country into the ground. Oddly enough, looking back at history, most of the presidents who did the best things for the country, were those who were younger when they took the office.


I am totally mystified by this argument. Since it will be difficult to try to tax the (exorbitantly) wealthy, you would prefer to vote someone in who has already pledged to reduce taxes on those whom we seem to have trouble getting money out of in the first place? Yes, it will be an uphill struggle to make massive multi-national conglomerate corporations, and their fabulously wealthy kings contribute fairly to the governance of the nation. However, to accomplish this goal, one must try. Only one of the two candidates who stands a chance to be elected is willing to try to fill loopholes, and raise the effectiveness of the system. The other candidate has stated quite clearly, time and time again, that he is in favor of reducing stated taxes on those who can afford them, and in creating more loopholes and deductions for them.

"Tax the poor and feed the rich - and you can be quite sure that eventually the rich will be so wealthy, they will take pity on the poor, and take better care of them."


Trickle down failed so miserably, I am quite amazed that anyone with an income below 100k/year actually believes we can continue in this way.

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I find this post to be so offensive as to almost be beyond words.

We live in a social contract. Denigrating people that believe differently than you - hardly bodes well for civic discourse.

Saying such things as 'the republicans stole the elections', conservatives are almost always wrong', 'these people aren't conservatives, they are plutocratic fascists' is immature, offenseive, and demonstrably wrong.

I find it particularly galling that leftists make arguments such as RRegan delayed the release of the hostages, Republicans stole the last two elections, the world trade centers were a government plot - without the merest shred of evidence.

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Am I the only one voting for Cynthia McKinney? I luv her :)

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one more thing,the republicans DID steal the elections, twice. But the democrats let them, so who cares?

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Top 5% of earners pay 50% of the taxes in the U.S.




Up until 1904 or so we had no income tax, as such were directly prohibited in the constitution. We seemed to last fairly well without confiscatory tax policies.

Under Obamas tax plan, the top marginal rate including the change to social security goes to about .. 43.1%.

If you add the 16% average local tax burden - and more for those unlucky enough to pay state income taxes... the top marginal tax rate is over 65%.

And in what world is this *fair*? The US govt spends 2 trillion dollars a year - and this is not enough? In what world is adding 1 trillion dollars a year of new government spending a good idea?