Jomon's new summons (how is Jomon now?)
 

Summon Ujigami, 1E1S 8 gems, conj 5
http://i36.tinypic.com/2n81wuo.png
Summon Kenzoku, 1s1e 9 gems, conj 6
http://i38.tinypic.com/r1zm6u.png
Contact Jigami, 1N 10 gems, conj 4
http://i38.tinypic.com/2rf4mq8.png
Contact Mori-no-kami, 3N 21 gems, conj 5
http://i34.tinypic.com/xqgtol.png
Contact Yama-nokami, 4e 28 gems, conj 7
http://i37.tinypic.com/21kcsjo.png
Summon Gozu Mezu, 3d 7 gems, conj 6
http://i36.tinypic.com/2e51n43.png
http://i33.tinypic.com/143ndd4.png

so how is Jomon now? does this significantly change/improve/expand the nation? What kind of strats do these offer them?

Re: Jomon's new summons (how is Jomon now?)
 

How much magic does the Yama-no-Kami lose when it leaves the mountains? Seems like a pretty cool summons, and a pretty cool mage, but if it loses a lot of power, I'm wondering how exciting it actually is.

Re: Jomon's new summons (how is Jomon now?)
 

These look fantastic--great job Kristoffer!

I have a general question though, since the Yami-no-kami losing it's power if it leaves the mountains, would concern my Nebulon mod: Is this an ability that we can currently mod in? I've read through the various "forestform, waterform" etc. tags, and I don't see a specifically "mountainform" tag. The closest seems to be "landform". Does a "mountainform" exist, that we can mod in, ourselves? Or is this something that the Devs are still reserving?

Re: Jomon's new summons (how is Jomon now?)
 

Kenzoku/Ujigami look like a reasonable thug chassis to me (although replacement armour would be a priority). Jigami look like a good alternative to wineskins/cauldrons for supporting an army.

Re: Jomon's new summons (how is Jomon now?)
 

Well, since it can only be summoned in mountains, it could theoretically have a #plainshape used for mountain form, and every other type of province give it the second form.

What do the soul catcher weapons do? They sound kind of like the twin spear of reanimation. And I guess the kenzoku are more thematically immortal than mechanically, as I don't see an immortal tag in there. They look pretty nice though. Also, any idea on randoms for the new mages?

It seems as though jomon is becoming a major bless nation.

Re: Jomon's new summons (how is Jomon now?)
 

I don't believe these significantly alter the balance of jomon at all. A small alteration of samurai armor encumbrance would have made a much bigger dent.

Rdonj; I don't believe a sacred summonable that far up the research path makes a blss nation. Toooooo long to get to your thug chassis.

Re: Jomon's new summons (how is Jomon now?)
 

i agree with both rdonj and chrispederson....

these _could_ make Jomon a bless nation, _yet_ they are too far up the research tree.

These should all be no higher than level four, with the exception of the Yama-no-Kami who should be either level five or six; then _maybe_ these could constitute a workable strategy. Their path and gem costs are about right, but being national summons they should be a lot lower on the tree; especially if they are intended to add another dimension of play to Jomon.

P.S. the Soul Catcher does a "Soul Trap" on hit. What that means is beyond me, it could be anything from instant death to enslave. sounds interesting at any rate.

Re: Jomon's new summons (how is Jomon now?)
 

Ox-Head and Horse-Face's weapons cause an effect that looks like False Fetters. It seems to be some kind of entrapment.

Re: Jomon's new summons (how is Jomon now?)
 

Contact Jigami, 1n 10 gems, conj 4.
Summon Ujigami, 1e1s 8 gems, conj 5.
Contact Mori-no-kami, 3N 21 gems, conj 5.
Summon Kenzoku, 1s1e 9 gems, conj 6.
Summon Gozu Mezu, 3d 7 gems, conj 6.
Contact Yama-nokami, 4e 28 gems, conj 7.

"Ox-Head and Horse-Face's weapons cause an effect that looks like False Fetters. It seems to be some kind of entrapment."

Hmm, that's not bad. Depending on how good it is that could be pretty nasty with their stats.

Jomon has a lot of other summons that are sacred also though (tengu, oni general/dai oni), and though their recruitable sacreds aren't the best and are capitol only they're fairly reasonably priced at least compared to the rest of jomon's recruitables.

Re: Jomon's new summons (how is Jomon now?)
 

1. lower the level of these new summons
2. possibly give the Kenzoku actual immortality (but then keep him the same level)
3. half the cost of the Dai Tengu summon

then Jomon would start looking like a competitive nation that would use a summon and bless strategy

Re: Jomon's new summons (how is Jomon now?)
 

I wonder if they do anything especially nasty to "Shattered Soul" units, like Tartarians?

Now *that* would be an interesting facet of Jomon, no matter how high it was on the research tree.

Re: Jomon's new summons (how is Jomon now?)
 

These all look great. And most of them can at least be summoned by the Jomon units :) But the critical problems of Jomon - a very poor starting army and a very slow start due to very high resource (and encumberance) troops remain. You are still therefore going to need an awake SC Pretender and at least reasonable scales. Although the temptation to add magic paths on the Pretender to get your summons is now less as these are mostly summonable. So I am not sure where you are going to get your bless from.

I would have boosted it's starting army (why only 10 of each anyway?). Lowered the summon level of some of its summons - especially the Dai Oni - which is too high at level 8. And as death income is so crucial given them some access to Death Magic. Perhaps given D1 to it's Priest even if that ups its price. At least let it have the Prince of Death pretender!

This boost is far more interesting than that of course. So thank you very much! But Jomon has always been an interesing nation to play :)

Re: Jomon's new summons (how is Jomon now?)
 

I think it improves Jomon quite a bit, essentially by giving the nation several decently gem priced thugs and Conj. 4-5 is about spot on for those summons. I would consider taking a bless with Jomon now and aiming for a mid game of pumping out as many, 'cheap' thugs as possible.

Re: Jomon's new summons (how is Jomon now?)
 

I love those new summons. The kami sounds like they could be their own mini-nation which is very nice.
I hope more creatures from the Japanese folklore like the Tanuki are included in a future patch (yes I'm greedy).

Aren't the horse-face and ox-head also available for T'ien Chi ? They look more chinese than japanese for me.
It lead to my last question, will we see more creatures from Chinese folklore in the future ?

Re: Jomon's new summons (how is Jomon now?)
 

KO said Gozu Mezu will have their cousin in TC. But I can't find it in 3.21...

Re: Jomon's new summons (how is Jomon now?)
 

What the heck does Soul Trap do, by the way?

Re: Jomon's new summons (how is Jomon now?)
 

Causes an effect that looks like False Fetters. It seems to be some kind of entrapment.

Re: Jomon's new summons (how is Jomon now?)
 

I think this was explained. It's a binding effect, like false fetters etc.


I haven't had a chance to mess about with the summons much yet, but from first glance I would say they make very little difference to the nation's power level or strategies as a whole. They're more a flavour thing.

If they are altered by CBM they may become more of a balance issue.

Re: Jomon's new summons (how is Jomon now?)
 

Agreed. I was playing around with the forest god and it's funny that it does get a different sprite if it leaves it's forest. If I recall it lost one magic point in it's paths going from 3n1e to 2n. I would guess the mountain god would also lose one magic point accross the board as well.

Re: Jomon's new summons (how is Jomon now?)
 

the thug chassis look best suited to an earth bless imo. that would enable them to be somehwat useable without gear, and cover their enc fully with gear. So i'd guess go with an e9 cyclops pretender to have your awake sc + bless.

Re: Jomon's new summons (how is Jomon now?)
 

Having experimented a bit, I can say that it is at least very interesting for Jomon.

One very interesting fact now is that Jomon can bootstrap Nature summons without making enhancers. Jigami requires 1N, has 2N. Kitsune requires 2N, has 3N (I believe). If Jomon can get access to Nature gems early, they can also start pumping out researchers. Given their wide variety of magic, Alteration to Mother Oak and then moving to Conjuration to get their summons may be viable.

For the same reason (wide variety of magic), I don't think that Jomon should have any Death magic inherent. They already can get 4 different paths at 2 (Fire, Air, Water, Astral) and 2 paths at 3 (Earth, Nature) without too much of a problem. Do you really want to give them more?

Also, has no one seen the Shikigami? More or less Ethereal sacred crows. Given an appropriate bless (say, 9S), they can be quite useful as harassment to keep troops in place and away from your Onmyoji. I do wish there were a way to summon them apart from auto-summoning.

A couple of events I've seen since the patch that I haven't seen before is a negative one that kills a Sohei and a Yamabushi if they're in the same province, and one where a kannushi (didn't have one in province, but there was a temple there) calmed a bandit leader, and I got about 10 Ronin.

Re: Jomon's new summons (how is Jomon now?)
 

The yamabushi/sohei event was there before. Don't know about the other one.

I don't think using nature gems to summon researchers sounds very viable. How does it compare with lanterns or skull mentors?

Re: Jomon's new summons (how is Jomon now?)
 

That just seems too severe. Dropping the one present in the screenshot to 1A2E1N makes him not only not very interesting as a battlemage, but also not incredibly cost effective. Ultimately he loses all combat magic utility, and thus becomes little more than a sort of expensive, lowish HP, self buffing thug.

Re: Jomon's new summons (how is Jomon now?)
 

IIRC it's the celestial soldier summon for TC, basicly they are big old horse-faces with some nice glaives, like 3 to a summon if memory serves, they tend to be a nice way to add flavour and potentcy to the rather dull, uniform army of TC.

Re: Jomon's new summons (how is Jomon now?)
 

have you ever actually played Jomon? getting 2f or 2a or 2w can well take a while. 3e or 3n "without too much of a problem" is even more of a joke. The dominions RNG is an interesting beast... I have 30 shugenja in Wheel of Time, and nary a 3e or 3n. with about an equal number of onmyo-ji, my upkeep costs for these mages is about 640 gold a turn already.

Re: Jomon's new summons (how is Jomon now?)
 

i think he was refering to being able to summon up for higher paths, for instance getting a 2n to summon a kitsune (whom has 3n)

Re: Jomon's new summons (how is Jomon now?)
 

I think both of these summons need to be looked at as a defensive boost vs. for use offensively.

Although having said that the Mori-no-kami can go in any forest and not lose magic levels, so will have some limited offensive potential.

Re: Jomon's new summons (how is Jomon now?)
 

Hmmmm. Summoning them as a "stationary" defender seems even more of a waste, in general terms. Considering you must do so in a Mountain province. Jomon in particular is one nation that should avoid Hillforts at all costs, without a single useful low resource unit to train. But then you spend 28 gems to get a researcher (with RP malus of 2, it appears), that maybe, some day, will have more purpose.

Re: Jomon's new summons (how is Jomon now?)
 

well, no, as 3e is not available through that route.

Re: Jomon's new summons (how is Jomon now?)
 

i guess i stand corrected but regardless getting to 3n atleast should be quite easy.

Re: Jomon's new summons (how is Jomon now?)
 

Thanks about the event.

Well, how good the Jigami is really depends on a number of factors. First, as a researcher, it's a 2N mage with standard research. That means it generally has 5 research, 6 if you're Magic-3. So it's roughly half of a Skull Mentor, at the equivalent tier in Conjuration and same number of gems, of the same type. It is, of course, also another body, which means something like the following.

It has 45 Supply production. So, in the field (more on this below), it's roughly the same as two Bags of Wine for your army, for the same cost as two Bags of Wine. Considering this is Late Era, and R'lyeh's dominionkill was increased, I don't think this can just be tossed aside. Its battle magic is limited, granted. OTOH, it could be a nice 'buffer'.

Something else that I realized is that it has 2 mapmove. As such, it's faster overland than either of the national mages that Jomon has. This may say more for the poor mapmove of the Onmyoji and Master Shugenja, but it can keep up with your armies, unlike your national mages.

As far as the RNG-nature of Jomonese national mages, 20% of your Mages should have 2 of a given path (this is ignoring Earth and Nature for Master Shugenja). Since most of your army is dirt-cheap, compared to most, you should be able to get many fortifications relatively quickly, and at that point it's all statistics. If you're going to try to give Death Magic to Jomon, the Onmyoji should have it. Probably replace their Nature chance.

Edit: Something I _am_ in favor of is making their mages Sacred. Their armies are very cheap, but as archaeolept points out, the upkeep on their mages seriously hampers development otherwise, and LE generally delays the ability to 'switch over' to a conjured army until it's too late for Jomon.

Re: Jomon's new summons (how is Jomon now?)
 

The changelog for patch 3.21 also mentions a "Onmyo-ji shikigami battle summon" but i couldnt find the spell somehow...?

Re: Jomon's new summons (how is Jomon now?)
 

Sicaire: It's not a 'battle summon' spell. It's something the Onmyoji auto-summon whenever they enter battle. An astral spell low in Conjuration to summon more would be really nice, as it's flavor and not really effective at this point. It might help a little against a rush if your prioritize buying Onmyoji over Master Shugenja.

(The spell, like Summon Ancestor for TC, should be Astral as they're thematically linked to the Onmyoji and the Onmyoji is the only national mage that Jomon has with Astral magic. Maybe make it Astral-2, as they do fly and aren't undead, unlike TC's ancestors.

Re: Jomon's new summons (how is Jomon now?)
 

are these shikigami sacred?

Re: Jomon's new summons (how is Jomon now?)
 

Omniziron: Yes, they are. ;) I just created a mod (not uploaded yet) that allows the Onmyoji to call them in battle, as well as making the mages sacred. I'm going to test it out a bit, and report back on them.

Re: Jomon's new summons (how is Jomon now?)
 

As I said in another thread earlier on this is only part of my intended Jomon update. JK's haste to make a patch interrupted my work. Thus there are no tatsus, shikomes or myoo in this patch. I have other even greater plans for them. These changes will have a greater balance effect on the nation, so current addons are mostly thematical in nature.

But, for the time being, you will have to contends with what you have.

Re: Jomon's new summons (how is Jomon now?)
 

E2A1 can cast Rain of Stones... and he's Ethereal.

-Max

Re: Jomon's new summons (how is Jomon now?)
 

I'm quite happy with what you're doing so far, KO, and I do see this as only a WIP. Looking forward to 3.22 (or 3.24).

Re: Jomon's new summons (how is Jomon now?)
 

There ya go. :p

Re: Jomon's new summons (how is Jomon now?)
 

A player on the Kingmaker thread playing Utgard says his Utgard mage can cast these summons as well. Is that intended?

Re: Jomon's new summons (how is Jomon now?)
 

it's a bug involving the mod. you can create an sp game w/ utgard and check for yourself :)

Re: Jomon's new summons (how is Jomon now?)
 

But with boots and summon earthpower he can cast several. Moreover, if he starts in a mountain province he can cloud trapeze without need for boosters. Do that with two or three of them in mid-game and you have an army-destroying surprise attack. And the bigger the opposing army the better. :mean: (If he starts his turn in a mountain province, will he then have his mountainform or notmountainform in any ensuing battles?) Of course, 28 gems isn't exactly cheap, but in the right circumstances it'll be absolutely worth it.

They also have good paths to allow the forging of the not-so-easy-to-get staff of elemental mastery with some boosters. And for gargoyles.

Re: Jomon's new summons (how is Jomon now?)
 

I think the mountain Kami doesn't care about the terrain, but only about his home province. Even if he's in a mountain, if it's not his home, he has weaker magic.

The forest kami uses different mechanic (forestform) and has higher magic in all forests.

Re: Jomon's new summons (how is Jomon now?)
 

If true, probably because there isn't a mountainform.

Re: Jomon's new summons (how is Jomon now?)
 

Good points, Amhazair. He just seems to be of very limited overall usefulness, I guess is what I was getting at. Not sure where you are going to get the Air boosters for him to make staves though - but they would be very interesting for Jomonese battlemagic in general, if you can get them. But it looks to me like your most likely path to that would be a 45 gem Empowerment, and a borrowed RoW forged by your pretender, then forge the first booster, and send the Ring back for other purposes - so 63 Air gems (with Hammer), and a pretender with at least 4S, plus however many pearls are needed to invest, depending on how high his Astral actually is.

Anyway, apparently these are meant more for flavor than anything, and the real game-changing stuff is still to come. ;) I must say though, it's very nice to have access to affordable summoned thugs without Death on your pretender now, that's a big plus for Jomon mid-game, at least.

Re: Jomon's new summons (how is Jomon now?)
 

If anyone here would like to jumpstart their experience with Jomonese summons in MP, there is game that needs a sub for Jomon: http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=41214

Re: Jomon's new summons (how is Jomon now?)
 

> He just seems to be of very limited overall usefulness

The Yama-no-kami never intended to make himself useful to a petty pretender upstart. He has been the ruler of his mountain for millenia, and he is very useful for the inhabitants of his lofty abode. Pretender come and pretenders go. No need to hurry away into a uncertain future in an inhospitable land making the same mistakes as most pretenders do, namely getting themselves killed by surprisingly stalwart defenders.

Re: Jomon's new summons (how is Jomon now?)
 

We could all learn something from the wise Yama-no-kami

Re: Jomon's new summons (how is Jomon now?)
 

Can't wait till the the next patch!

Re: Jomon's new summons (how is Jomon now?)
 

I'll note that 3.22 is listed as being up on 2/28.

Please tell me that means that we're getting a patch soon?