Beware of Ashdod
 

I brought up this point on Omni's Hinnom thread but thought it worthy of its own discussion. IMHO, there is no nation that so thoroughly dominates its age like Ashdod. Sure Hinnom and Niefelheim are powerhouses, but at least they have to contend with each other, along with some other pretty dominating EA nations like Lanka, Fomoria, Sauromatia. But in the MA, nothing comes even close to Ashdod. Their tool kit of dominating resources is frightening:

• Berserking, sacred Anakites with FR75, 50HP, high MR (15) high protection (14), decent combat stats for giants (Att 12/ Def 15) and magic weapons
• Recruitable Adon SCs with 3 misc slots. Since this nation will almost always have an E bless, protection gets jacked even higher with Bracers/bless double counting
• Heat +2 preference means Heat +3 an extra 120 pts to help with the high gold/resource scales for the nation. Fatigue for any non-heat nations, but no worries for Ashdod since most units are at least FR 50
• Ridiculously tough PD
• +15% forge bonus on Talmai Elders
• Archers with 16 protection, Range 50 and 17 damage bows
• Non cap sacred Zamzummite mages that can thug with up to D4 possible (they are D2E1 +D/E +D/E/S/F)
• “Nice” national summons

Because of their durability, the troops you recruit as Ashdod will likely rack up experience and thus improve their combat stats, while most other nations in the MA tend to have to recycle troops. Woodsmen, the other giant troops in MA (Jotunheim) are nowhere near as effective. No protection, low MR, low attack, no magic weapons. Pyth another strong MA nation will watch its non-sacred hydras get torn apart by regenerating / reinvigorating Anakites assuming the usual Ashdod E/N bless.

I suspect you will start to see Ashdod come to dominate the victorious nations. I am not recommending they be banned or nerfed but new players should beware that Ashdod may be like the Ermor/Ryleh of the LA - a nation that should be joined up against aggressively early on if it is your neighbor. Especially avoid them in games with hard research. I look forward to playing them if a game ever starts where the organizer hasn't already picked them :)

Re: Beware of Ashdod
 

DonCorazon:

I think Talmai Elders can be even better SCs, if they can get someone to bless them. Zamzummites can get Invulnerability + Soul Vortex + self-bless.

They can also forge dwarven hammers at discount price to stack forge bonus. They can summon tartarians [probably the easiest nation to get to tarts with national mages], and don't forget about communion capabilities probably better than Pythium.

You cannot forget about high research too [8RP on build-everywhere sacred mages], so you can go even with Drain2. And Misfortun2 is no-brainer too as you can recruit fortune tellers to protect important provs from unlucky events.

Re: Beware of Ashdod
 

You're probably right, but I beat Ashdod in a MA game as Pythium. Essentially, I relied on multiple smaller armies and Harbringer thugs to take alot of provinces quickly. For the bigger confrontations, I relied on booster Soul Slay and Paralysis to neutralize SC's while Fog Warriors and Evocation helped win on the field. Of course, he'd been involved in wars up until my intervention and had negative scales allowing me to bring much greater resources to bear.

Re: Beware of Ashdod
 

*wonders where Ashdod is in relation to Shinuyama...* ;)

Re: Beware of Ashdod
 

OW:
My one experience playing Pyth vs. Ashdod was in a hard research game where I got rushed early on, so those tactics weren't available. I do wish i was able to get more of his neighbors to attack but I have been diplomatically lazy of late. :)

I was able to slow him down with communion boosted Word of Power when he did not attack with full forces. By the time I got thunderstrike, it wasn't enough damage to stop the number of berserking/regenerating sacreds he could field. But I agree, they are not unbeatable, just need to beware of them, and they are not fun neighbors, especially on a hard research game.

Cleveland:
Yep, I continue my unbroken streak of neighboring Ashdod (Origin, ComfortZone), Gath (WheelofTime) and Hinnom (Hellscape) in my last few games. Though in CZ, we are on a suicide mission vs. another nation who killed &^-+...

Re: Beware of Ashdod
 

I'd much rather see people present some of the weaknesses of Ashdod, or explain an advantage that other nations have that they lack. The argument is that Ashdod has too many items in their tool kit for other middle-age nations to match them given equal player skill.

So far, the only weak points of Ashdod that I've observed is that their more expensive units are easy to target with the "Attack/Fire Large Monsters" command. However, that only helps you if you have something capable to taking on their SCs and sacred units. For those nations without their own thugs, I suggest using a few of the nasty ranged magical items.

Re: Beware of Ashdod
 

EA C'tis is actually better at Tartarians (also gets D4 on recruitable-anywhere mages, plus has Nature access for GoR). It doesn't much matter though because Ashdod, which is naturally playing with an E/N bless, gets a better deal out of Banquet for the Dead than Summon Tartarian.

A nice bonus point to Zamzummites: they have Robes. Since Prot value of Robes is non-zero, E9 boosts them. A typical Zamzummite will get Prot 9 or so after being blessed, which helps shield them from arrows and makes them better battlemages. It also means that thug Zamzummites can get Prot 24 or so on the body from Ironskin, which means you don't have to use Invulnerability if you don't want the fatigue/poison ability.

I concur, if you are playing MP, Ashdod must be taken out ASAP. Frozen Heart, Mind Burn, etc. are probably the way to go, although elephants work too.

One final point: DonCorazon mentioned Gileadite archers. I actually find that human slingers are superior when you actually need missile weapons, because Gileadite archers take forever to mass. Beware of Ashdod human slaves because Ashdod has access to buffs which boost even chaff to frightening levels (Strength of Giants/Weapons of Sharpness/Marble Warriors/etc.) and Ashdod can easily produce masses of human chaff (100 humans in a single turn, easy). Naturally, other nations can play this game too but my point is that if you try to exploit the weaknesses of giant troops Ashdod can shift easily.

Repeat, kill Ashdod ASAP because they are a steamroller.

-Max

Re: Beware of Ashdod
 

In what way? I can't think of much that a 3S/3E/3F SC can do that a 2S/2E/2F can't, except that obviously you come out of buffing with lower fatigue. On the other hand, Adonim have built-in gear and can self-bless, and have better attack/defense and I think better HP. Talmai Elders could be good SCs but I don't see them edging out Adonim except in limited circumstances (you want a teleporting SC for fire-fighting, and don't have any slots to boost an Adon to 3S).

-Max

Re: Beware of Ashdod
 

One main weak point for Ashdod is their dependence on their capital. Their only sacred recruitable troops are cap-only, as are their two best commanders.

I propose the following strategy:

1. Find Ashdod's capital. Cast Astral Window on it.
2. Cripple the capital with Rain of Toads, Raging Hearts, and other Unrest-causing spells. If you have spies, use those too. Crank that Unrest as high as it will go and keep it there!
3. ??? (Deal with the troops Ashdod already has ... somehow.)
4. Win!

Another weak spot is supply. Giants are hungry, and Ashdod doesn't get any native Nature magic to help them feed their troops. Many Ashdod players will probably design their pretenders with some Nature magic for the bless, so they'll get there eventually. Even so, the pretender is only one unit, and he/she/it will usually have more important tasks at hand than forging Cauldrons and Wineskins....

Re: Beware of Ashdod
 

MaxWilson:

Talmai Elders have 8RP, Adon only 3. So for normal times you'd prefer them, for similar SC capabilities.

SlipperJim:

I wouldn't call Ashdod very cap-dependant. Most nations would love to have Zamzummietes as cap-only mages.

Re: Beware of Ashdod
 

well if you have some earth access you may be able to strike out the sacreds with some ease mid game, destruction/iron bane to make that heavy armour fall in heaps and then strike em out with heavy hitters(predators lizards, barbarians, anything weilding a lance) boosted with strength of giants.

another thing to think about is raiding, their awesome troops cost a national debt so it makes sense early game, also unrest causing spells on their capital also work as previously stated

Re: Beware of Ashdod
 

I'd like to hear from people that have actually played Hinnom/Ashdod/Gath.

I have stated that I think Hinnom is one of the strong contenders.

I don't find that to be the case with Ashdod - at all. In my most recent case of playing Ashdod, two players collaborated so quickly and got forge of the ancients up, that the game was essentially decided by about turn 30. Ashdod was a nonfactor.

I find ashdod to be hamstrung by the incredible expense of all its units. You will be choosing to build *a* mage or *a* sc chassis. This is one nation that is seriously hamstrung by upkeep costs.

Ashdod has the ability to all of the things that people claim here. And at the same time - it can't. The paucity of units, and the paucity of money - means you have to be much much much more focused on whatever *single* strategy you chose to follow.

No doubt a lot of it is style - but I didn't find them fun - at all.

As an example of the problem- what is the gold cost / research point of its available researchers - compared to other nations?

Re: Beware of Ashdod
 

Sages would be the primary choice: 175 gold for 6 RP, but you don't have to build a lab for them. That makes them quite nice, really.

Talmai are a little more efficient, at 400g+sacred for 9 RP.

Zamzummites are 310g+sacred for, err, 7 rp? But... IMHO they are more about forging, casting and battle mage duties than researching.

Ashdod's research isn't exactly cheap, but it's not excessively weak. And pretty much any of their researchers can be a useful battle mage if you need them to be.

Re: Beware of Ashdod
 

chrispedersen:

No, you don't have to choose. Ashdod mages are either SCs or thugs. They can either cast spells of fight in melee. They don't die of old age, they are immune to remote attacks.

You don't need some insane bless, 2x9 is not necessary, just E9-10 + N6 does a great job. So you have plenty of points to spend on decent scales [you are fine with 5-6 dom and you get 120 points free from heat3],

Re: Beware of Ashdod
 

Regarding these, the PD has very low morale, and is quite susceptible to the standard Misfortune 2 barbs/knights in strengths < 35 or so. I would definitely not call it "ridiculously tough." The archers are nice, but *expensive* (especially in resources) and (currently) can't get fire arrows. OK, the fire arrows would be overkill anyway :)

Re: Beware of Ashdod
 

Ashdod's PD morale is pretty good IMHO. The Edomites are low-morale, but Gileadites have Morale 13 or so. Also, in practice their high HP seems to prevent them from easily routing. In SP, I seldom see a battle lost because of routing that would have been won if the PD had survived, which to me is what makes PD feel like "low morale." (Helheim has this problem, for instance, with PD < 20. Once the serfs are dead the Huskarls run away.) PD 10 will sometimes stand off barbarian attacks or even knight attacks, and PD 20 will often stand off knights and usually stand off barbarians. To me that's about all you can ask for in PD, although I don't concur with DonCorazon's opinion that the PD is "ridiculously tough" either (although *Hinnom*, pre-nerf, did have *ridiculously* tough PD for the price).

With Ashdod as strong as it is, though, I wouldn't object to seeing its PD nerfed a bit. I've previously suggested Edomites + humans, vs. the current Gileadites + Edomites.

Random thought: according to the EA Hinnom text for Qedesot, all Rephaim are male and rely on (Avvite) Qedesot to bear them sons. Ashdod doesn't seem to have any Qedesot left. Where do all the Bashanites, Gileadites, etc., come from? To me this is also part of the thematic justification for removing Rephaite Gileadites from Ashdod PD. Let them be a nation mostly composed of Edomites.

You could nerf Ashdod pretty hard-core by making Zamzummites cap-only. That would make me cry, and avoid Ashdod the way I avoid Helheim now that you can't make Svartalfs. The memory of what once was is tragic. :)

-Max

P.S. I think CBM makes Ktonian Necromancers cap-only. That also makes me cry. I would likewise object to restricting Sauromancers to the capital. Good recruitable-anywhere battlemages are my primary criteria for selecting a nation.

Re: Beware of Ashdod
 

Slightly OT, but Gath PD is nice too. 10 is usually sufficient against barbarians, and at 20 you start getting sacreds.

Re: Beware of Ashdod
 

I'm the guy playing Ashdod in the game that DonCorazon was talking about.

IMHO, Ashdod is the most powerful MA nation, and arguably more powerful than even the best EA nations:
1. Sacred capital-only soldiers that are better than any other MA nations sacred soldiers, almost as good as the best of EA. When combined with a good bless, Ashdod sacred soldiers have no major weaknesses, and lots and lots of strengths (strat move 3, very high HP, high attack and defense, 2 attacks each, one of which is magic, very high damage, decent protection, bezerk, fire resistance, MR 15, plus whatever your bless grants).
2. Capital-only recruitable commanders that make better thugs than anything recruitable in MA, almost as good as the best of EA.
3. When fighting EA strong sacred nations (ie Neifelheim) you can sabotage their capital with spells and spies. That can be a bit difficult if they're doing an SC strategy, as their commanders don't need too terribly many resource points, but it can work. Ashdod is less vulnerable to this strategy because in addition to awesome capital-only units Ashdod also has excellent buildable anywhere units, particularly the Zamzummite (all Zamzummites can cast raise skeletons/dead, 62.5% can cast Summon Earthpower and thus all the E3 spells that usually follow that, and 25% can cast either magma eruption or GfH after summon earthpower - and they are sacred, holy-1, and very tough). The Gileadite archers are kinda decent too.
4. Decent PD.
5. Decent national summons. At conjuration 6, the Dirge for the Dead summon makes a decent SC chassis (innate 0 encumbrance sacred etherial undead giant, with excellent combat stats, an extra misc slot, decent starting equipment, etc. The main disadvantage is a small insanity rating). At Conjuration 7, Call Hashmal is a decent way to convert astral gems into a preacher. Call Arel is a good way to get rid of afflictions (which Ashdod desperately needs, since it has lots of thugs and SCs without recuperation), to get an extra holy-3 for divine blessings, and to get access to higher level nature magic. At conjuration 8, Call Ophan is an good (though slightly bizarre) thug (holy-3 flying lifeless etherial protection 20 size 6 trampler) for 49 astral gems. Banquet for the Dead is a higher level variant of Dirge for the Dead, but I don't like it as much as the main unit produced has a higher insanity rating, and extra magic paths that aren't particularly useful on an SC. At conjuration 9, Call Merkavah takes a ridiculous amount of astral gems (222, compared to 100 astral + 20 nature to just wish for the same unit and GoR it), but it is IMHO the best SC chassis in the game, slightly better than even a Seraph, though not as effective at combat magics (it's hard to beat the Seraphs F4A4S4H4). It comes with excellent bodyguards too, maybe even worth the extra cost incurred by casting Call Merkavah instead of Wish.
I consider Ashdod national summons to be overall not quite as good as Bandar Log or Marginon/Pythium/Ermor, but more diverse than those, and significantly better than Tien Chi or any other MA nation.

Note: the forge bonus is not quite as good as it sounds: when you look at the actual forge costs when combined with a dwarven hammer, it has no effect on 5-gem item costs, only a 1 gem difference on 10-gem items, and a 2 gem difference on 15-gem items. Significant, but not like 25% forge bonuses that some nations have access to.

That said, I still expect to lose that game.

If someone wanted to nerf Ashdod, I would recommend starting by reducing the Zamzummites E1 to a 50% chance of E1, raising the base encumbrance on Sheshai Anakites and Ahiman Anakites by 1, and increasing the gluttony by about 50% on each unit plus an extra 100% on the capital-only commanders.

Re: Beware of Ashdod
 

Zamzummite is arguably best non-caponly commander in the game. Being great battlemage and great self-buffable thug, it's even cheaper than Vanjarl(250 vs 280). IMO it's seriously overpowered.

Re: Beware of Ashdod
 

Zamzummites cost 310 gold, not 250.

Re: Beware of Ashdod
 

Beaten by Ashdod in last team game. No one dared attack them. They slowly but surely took all VP provs needed to win.

Nuff said

Re: Beware of Ashdod
 

So Edi's database contains an error;)
Even with 310 gold they are too powerful. IMO they are lesser version of Dai-oni which can be builded everywhere, and they are immune to the anti-demon spells.

Re: Beware of Ashdod
 

Pretty much making my point for me.
Your idea of an efficient researcher - the Talmai - cost 44gp/rp.
Compare that with other nations at 25/rp.

Everyone considers the Seshai the preeminent sacred warrior of MA. Unit for unit - probably right. But effectiveness per gp - and I don't think they are even close.
At a cost of 125 gp - and 48 resources.. I can get *5* jaguar warriors.

And 5 jaguar warriors with a competent bless are going to beat 1 sheshai -every time.
So, on the critical question of effectiveness/gp - Mictlan - and a lot of other nations - win.


The problem is that jaguar warriors attrit - and sheshai don't. AND ashdod can get up to the point where he's cranking out 4-6 of these every turn, from one castle given time Mictlan, to crank out 20-30 of these per turn will need 3-4 castles.

Ashdod has to be jumped on fast - but I don't seem them as I dont see these as worse than niefle.



Lingchi made the point that everyone was afraid to attack ashdod - and so they won. But I would submit to you that its a self fulfilling prophecy. Don't attack any nation - and they *will* win. The opponents of ashdod decided to ignore the 600 lb gorilla in the room - which is a sure recipe to lose.

Ashdod has a number of great advantages.
-First, people don't know how to counter - and are afraid to.
-Second, their sacred troops don't require a lot of bless. Frankly, I think an F4-6N4-8 is all thats required, although an S assist for the magic resistance is a good thing.
-Third they don't attrit. They take almost no casualties, so they benefit strongly from experience. Which means that the 600 pound gorilla is much stronger later than earlier.
And on that same point- the game graphs are deceptive.

People tend to rank leaders by province, gem income, army strength, and perhaps research. But the army strength graph in asdods case is almost meaningless.. (same sort of problem with niefle)..

Re: Beware of Ashdod
 

Understood, the Talmai are less efficient to buy, but Gregstrom was referring more to the upkeep cost then the initial cost. If you go back to the Sages, the gold/RP is about 29. Not the best by any stretch, but not the worse either. The point I think people make about their research is that it is simply good enough that it isn't a weakness. People often feel you should trade early game power for late game power. Ashdod doesn't do this by having average research. Plus there are the little things, like the lack of old age and near immunity to remote killing spells and such. Also, once they have the research, their mages are capable of a lot.

I will agree that fear can be a greater killer then your enemy, which is why Don made this post in the first place. His advice is that turtling is not a valid tactic to use against them.

P.S.: Mictlan can only make jaguar warriors at home in the middle age.

Re: Beware of Ashdod
 

Zamzummites are better than Ktonian Necromancers in several respects (strat move, HP, Precision, no old age, lower Enc, thuggable, +1 D) and worse in three (cost +20% or so, research -1, -1 F). Much as I love Ktonian Necros I'd say that Zamzummites are far superior. If Ashdod only had Zamzummites and cap-only S3 Talmais as recruitable commanders I would be content--everything else is just gravy. Yeah, just my biases showing, but Zamzummites are awesome.

I really don't see 5 Jaguar Warriors beating a Sheshai Anakite. Or even if they do, 5 Ahiman Anakites can likely kill unlimited numbers of Jaguar Warriors. I think regular units won't be taking down Ahimans short of either 1.) lots of high damage weapons (EA Ulm does okay with Steel Maidens, knights do too) or 2.) Destruction/Iron Bane. Oh, or 3.) Cold dominion and/or swamps for the extra +2 enc. The combination of 0 encumbrance (w/ E10) and high Prot is hard to get past. Non-Earth nations with no Cold dominion like Mictlan will probably struggle (have to ambush them in swamps). However... I'm not at home so I haven't tested this. Maybe you're right and 10 jags really can take down an E10N6 Ahiman in normal terrain.

-Max

Re: Beware of Ashdod
 

I'm pretty sure that 5 jaguar warriors with F8W9B9 could easily take an anakite. The problem is that the jaguar warriors would be easy prey to any indie archers backing up the anakites, and would tend to suffer serious attrition even against weak forces.

F8W9B9 jaguar warriors are rather special-purpose units with a special purpose bless, whereas E10N6 or E9N4F4W4 or whatever anakites are good for almost any purpose and the bless helps their spellcasters and SCs too.

Re: Beware of Ashdod
 

cthulhu:

Huh, who would take a bless like that with Mictlan? With MA you can either have W9F9 or W9F9 as it's mainly for eagle warriors. Only EA and LA Mictlan can live with very heavy bless and rely on blood sacred summons.

Re: Beware of Ashdod
 

Clearly cthulhu doesn't know a thing about MA Mictlan. Good luck finding a god for F8W9B9.

Re: Beware of Ashdod
 

F8W9B9 is not intended as an example of a recommended bless for mictlan, just as a bless which would allow jaguar warriors to trounce the comparable gold cost of anakites. Likewise I'm also not intending to imply any reliance on blood magic except for the bless. I'm aware that taking it requires seriously nasty scales, and isn't much good for anything other than punching through the armor of anakites. ie a "special purpose bless".
W9F9 is not enough to let 5 jaguar warriors reliably kill a well blessed anakite, considering that the anakite resists the fire damage, has more armor than the jaguar warriors base damage in either form even before bezerking, accumulates fatigue much slower, and will be regenerating health reasonably fast.

Re: Beware of Ashdod
 

cthulhu:

But examples should be realistic :) No one will create a nation just to counter one other nation, especially when it's 20 people game. And compare what Mictlan gets in normal forts [Nahuallis are a joke, S1N2 non-sacred mage? compared to Zamzummite?]. Ashdod could be very strong if you take Zamzummites, Talmai Elders and national summons completely from them.

Re: Beware of Ashdod
 

I think Dirge for the Dead is great. You get a Malik (15% Shattered Soul) who can cast Soul Vortex and either Invulnerability, Fire Shield/Phoenix Pyre, or Personal Luck/Teleport (depending upon which variant you get), as well as Blood Vengeance if you have nothing better to do than research Blood-9. (Non-factor, really, but interesting.) You also get 4 awesome sacred Ditanu with zero insanity, MR 18, ethereality, lots of hit points, good att/def, etc. Both the Malik and the Ditanu are Morale 30, so unlike regular Ahimans/Adonim/She****es they won't rout when faced with Hydras/Ghosts/etc. You get the standard undead strengths/weaknesses, which in this case is really good because Cold/Poison immunity added to Fire resistance covers almost the full spectrum, whereas weaknesses (Dust to Dust vuln) matter less because of high HP + regen of 6+ HP per turn (assuming E10N6).

I can't say enough good things about Soul Vortex. Best spell an SC can have--chaff-killing + reinvig + regen all in one neat little package. You'll need a death booster or a death gem to cast it w/ Malkim.

-Max

Re: Beware of Ashdod
 

Z - Are you suggesting you'll be joining the new all MA nations game? Surely you're bored after Kingmaker? :D

Re: Beware of Ashdod
 

Well, the weird thing is that Ashdod can get E10N6 and still have good scales, whereas F8W9B9 Mictlan will be destroying his economy to get that bless. It's still possible that Mictlan would lose that fight, too, on a gcost basis.

E10N6 Ahiman: 0 enc, Prot 22 all over, att 15/13 and def 16 IIRC, regen 6 HP per turn.
F8W9B9 Jaguar Warrior: att 17 or so (?), str 16 (?), about 21 base damage per hit, 1.5 attacks per round.

You'll have 3-6 jags attacking each Ahiman, and I wouldn't be surprised to see the Ahimans taking 10+ points of damage each turn (with an "average" damage of -1 it's hard to be sure without running the numbers). Ahiman will regenerate 6 HP per turn. Ahiman has to kill IIRC 6 jags to be cost-effective (on a gcost basis--number varies if you're measuring vs. Prod/Holy/cap-only opportunity cost). I think Mictlan would win this fight but I'd like to be sure.

Of course, as you point out, these jags wither under missile fire. Ashdod doesn't even need indy troops, it can produce human slingers at any fort. Or just cast Body Ethereal on the Ahimans at the start of combat, which would undoubtedly be enough to tip the balance in favor of the Ahimans (3+ points of damage per turn vs. 6 regen, still 0 enc).

-Max

Re: Beware of Ashdod
 

cleveland:

Is Ashdod free there? :) To be honest there is not much action going on in Kingmaker. I take good care of my lands and don't let any visitors in :)

Re: Beware of Ashdod
 

Not really slow. Ashdod took its time until it decided to take the world and then it just exploded. It basically took out bless based Jotun in one turn!
(IIRC It had an E9 bless while Jotun had a E9N6 bless.)

Then it just picked whatever VPs it needed to win.

Granted, the game was w/o diplomacy, so trouble makers like myself who always nag ppl to ally against the biggies had to keep their mouth shut, but its true nonetheless that everyone was trembling with fear of attacking Ashdod.

Re: Beware of Ashdod
 

I'd say that the one thing most likely to increase the power of an overpowered nation is "no diplomacy".


Meanwhile, as someone playing against Ashdod currently, I'm all ears for ideas. Has any tried massing banefire archers? Or does their long life span save them from decay?

Re: Beware of Ashdod
 

Charm, Enslave mind and/or the likewise blood spell?

Frozen heart spam?

Avoid confrontation and use sneak tactics and spells to ruin his economy?

Find friends?

Re: Beware of Ashdod
 

Okay, I checked and F8W9B9 jags do take out E10N6 Ahimans on a gcost basis. I tried 4 Ahimans vs. 24 jags several times, and the jags won each time with something like 25% casualties. I'm not necessarily suggesting that this would be a good bless to take for Mictlan, but you'd probably get almost as good results out of a F9B8 Smoking Mirror bless and you'd have decent scales to boot. Point being that the Str component of a Blood bless is sometimes quite good even though everybody scoffs at the Death Curse effect.

-Max

Re: Beware of Ashdod
 

What are you facing? Blessed troops or regular Bashanites/Amorites? Bashanites have slightly less attacking power than a square of human-sized troops, and are somewhat more expensive, so you may be able to just slug it out. If he's using blessed troops (i.e. it's a small map) you'll have to bring in mages. Stellar Cascades/Destruction/Iron Bane are the way to go, depending upon your magic paths. By the way, what nation are you playing?

Banefire archers will be marginally effective, as you guessed, because of the combination of long lifespans and good shield parry. Not that they might not be worth using anyway, if you don't have anything else you need death gems for more. (Because it's always worth having more banefire bows in play. :))

-Max

Re: Beware of Ashdod
 

A death bless is probably quite good vs. any giant nation. Afflictions easily build up to make your blessed giants rather useless.

Re: Beware of Ashdod
 

That's what I was thinking, D9 Eagles. Maybe W9D9, or D9/B8..... Change the meaning of the word "attrition". Actually, D9/B9, sooooo many Eagles, poor Ashdod will be swimming in Horrors. ;)

Re: Beware of Ashdod
 

Hm... what exactly does Soul Vortex do? I've never actually cast that spell. My impression was that it was basically an instant combat evocation comparable to a zero range area of effect drain life spell, and thus only minimally useful to an SC no matter what the damage was since spells can only be scripted in the first 5 turns and it would the sort of spell that you'd want to cast over and over again after the enemies were near to get good results from.

Re: Beware of Ashdod
 

Soul vortex is basically a life drain aura that lasts the entire battle. Not too shabby.

Re: Beware of Ashdod
 

It's uber uberness of self-buffs. It is AoE drain life every turn that gives you life and reinvigoration [lots of reinvigoration, like tens a turn]. And you can get over max HP with that.

Re: Beware of Ashdod
 

As I've written many times, F9W9 and then AX or SX
I know that probably the standard counter for jags are archers. An A bless defeats that strategy.

You can, with many variations, make a Dominion 7 pretender. And 7 jags with that F9W9A9 bless will take no losses against virtually any independent. The only time you will lose is when your mictlan priest gets killed via an archer.

Additionally, Mictlan can afford that 999 bless - affording an E9N4F4W4 bless with ashdod is *much* more difficult. Ashdod *needs* a +3 +x scales. You can play a e9X4 bless with ashdod but I am far from convinced its optimal strategy.

I think it would be thematically interesting to balance ashdod by making its castles the equivalent of ermorian - something like 10 admin, available everywhere. These would but a severe damper on ashdods gathering of resources, and hence its ability to produce units.

Again, ashdod is very money and resource intensive. All of its units are expensive. So if you force it to defend against dominion death you are significantly reducing its ability to research or act offensively.

Re: Beware of Ashdod
 

Nah. With Niefle I just rotate the SC's out. Set the afflicted SC to research.

With an Exn6 bless, its relatively easy to get a fairy queen to heal afflictions; plus some of the giants have healers native.

Re: Beware of Ashdod
 

You are all so peaceful! You should not consider the game after research lvl 7. If you haven't won by then you will never win :) Beat Ashdod about early, when they can't heal themselves with fairy queen. You can never plan for late game victories and hope to win. If you do you're a bore :)

Re: Beware of Ashdod
 

This should be in the manual. :)


Oh, and KO, please ignore any disparaging remarks about Machaka that may have surfaced in the "Machaka = least played nation" thread I started. I've been playing with them since that original post, and I've got to say, WOW. They are friggen awesome.

I don't want to tip my hand per my upcoming MP game, but you want to know how to kill Ashdod? Send an equivalent $$$ worth of Spider Riders at them. In fact, send $.

*skulks off to write Machaka guide outline*

Re: Beware of Ashdod
 

Yes! Machaka guide is long overdue!!! All glory for you (and I hope you win with them ;) )!

Re: Beware of Ashdod
 

> All glory for you (and I hope you win with them )!

Of course I will :)

Mbaba is still inhaling. In a few turns she has inhaled long enough to snuff out every candle there is.