Brain Dead AI Nations
 

In almost every game I play EA Arcos just sits there and conquers almost no provinces! Is this AI broken?

Any other examples of useless AI nations out there? Can this be fixed?

Re: Brain Dead AI Nations
 

It depends greatly upon the pretender and scales chosen by the AI in that particular game; I have not noticed EA Arco being unusually weak in my games. Gandalf Parker has run all-AI games to collect statistics on "good" AI nations, but I don't have a link to his results. I believe Mictlan has a reputation for dom-killing itself early on.

You can fix it by using map or mod commands to give AI nations better starting armies and/or pretenders. I presume you're playing on Impossible difficulty; if not, turn it up and see if that fixes it. Also, try using Edi's BI mod. A final idea: play on crowded maps. The AIs which happen to be weak because of poor pretender choices will get eaten by those which are strong, and a "best opponent" should emerge naturally.

-Max

Re: Brain Dead AI Nations
 

Thanks for the suggestions! Because of the reasons you stated I only play modded nations with modded pretenders. But this only lets you play with a normal ai. This also only lets you play with random ai personality types. I balance all pretenders and scales. I play on a large map that gives them plenty of room for expansion. The problem is certain AI nations never expand. Maybe this is because the random AI personality is on defensive but usually its always the same nations no matter what that suck. Ive tried the BI mod but the AI armies seem to be more quality but much smaller and less competitive. Anyone have any other ideas?

Re: Brain Dead AI Nations
 

Actually the Arcos AI works great. Finally after much tweaking most of the nations work well. They play with their strengths. Pangaea uses stealth, Marignon uses dominion strength, Ctis uses poison, and Mictlan finally manages to keep up some dominion and not starve itself early in the game.

Arcos as a nation is geared around magic. Its a strong researcher.

In test games I have often found some nations to be strong early expanders, then others are strong mid-game, and yet others are a late game powerhouse. So whether or not an AI is "broken" often has more to do with the way the games are played. On smaller maps with many opponents certain nations will always seem to be powerful. But on larger maps with more wilderness they will do terrible. Those larger maps (larger than the game creates, such as 1000-1500 provinces) which go into late-game and powerful spells is where Arcos does very well. Also setting the independents really strong tend to play into Arcos favor.

However, if you wish to "fix" the AIs for the types of games you are playing then look at the SemiRand program. With it you can have the AIs setup from pre-done files. A player-created better choice of god and scales can insure a better game.

Gandalf Parker

Re: Brain Dead AI Nations
 

I may be wrong, but to me this entire paragraph comes across as a total fabrication.

I have never seen the AI exhibit any of the behaviour you're describing. Other than Mictlan randomly surviving past the first few turns.

I also think claiming that the arco AI is 'very good' in late game is misleading. It sucks in late game. They all do. The AI has no idea what to do with late game magic, doesn't build thugs/SCs, doesn't script mages,...

I don't usually have a problem with your posts gandalf but this just seems like deliberate misinformation.

Re: Brain Dead AI Nations
 

iceboy:

MAke sure there is EA Arco in the game. There is quite rare bug with EA Arco appearing in HoF but not being in the game. There is also even more rare bug of nation appearing in the game and controling provs even when it is not present in the gmae :)

Re: Brain Dead AI Nations
 

Yes Sombre. We all know that you can kick the games tail. :)
I admit that the AI is not a great AI vs expert players, and I am sure that you remember many games where you excelled.

But running a hundred games on repeated hosting tends to show patterns. The score sheets tend to show early leads by nations such as Ermor, mid leads by nations such as Oceania, and late leads by nations such as Arcos. The patterns are even more pronounced if you remove the randominity of the AIs early setup giving it pre-created gods and scales. But then of course removing those variables tends to also remove some great surprises.

Examining the debug logs shows definite differences in the way they handle their daily affairs. Much improvment has come in the last dozen or so patches over the old linear single-minded AI code I used to complain about which had them all making the same decisions. As a modder you might also have noticed the many commands added for telling a nation to act in certain ways (such as, to act as a blood-sacrifice needing nation).

Re: Brain Dead AI Nations
 

Thanks for the info. I am only referring to EA Arcos as the other Arcos ages seem to work fine. Every game that I play EA Arcos looks like this: EA Arcos is always dead last in expansion. This is always on a large map with plenty of room and time for expansion and has nothing to do with early or late in the game. They never get to late game because they never expanded at all... Independents are always set to 9.

Re: Brain Dead AI Nations
 

Here is the map I always play on: I set all the starting provinces very evenly and even when I move EA Arcos around they still are dead last in expansion...

Re: Brain Dead AI Nations
 

And that's the reason for the AI faring badly. I intended to ask about this, now you pointed it out yourself. Read up on other threads how to improve the situation for enemy AIs. Play at normal or lower indie settings.

Re: Brain Dead AI Nations
 

Initial responses:
Someone is always at top and bottom but you are only looking at provinces. Arcos does tend to run low there, but not on the bottom (not in my tests). But other "broken" nations would be Mictlan for always benig low dominion, and Pangaea or Abysia for being low gem income (not enough searching).

The map you use is on the small side for showing some nations best features. Its a nice map. Im just saying that always using it will affect the outcomes.

Indept str of 9 is hard on the AIs. Especially in expansion. But Im not sure if setting it lower would help Arcos.

How does Arcos look on the other scores? Research in particular.

Re: Brain Dead AI Nations
 

Later responses:
Hmmm in a test I just ran, Arcos did not do as well as I expected in research. It was above average but not enough to offset the lack of attention elsewhere. It might have been the god and scale choices. Yomi wasnt in the initial tests and seems to be a factor in research. I need to do some more tests. Thank you for bringing this to my attention.

By the way, if you run your games with the --scoredump switch then it will output an html page each turn which gives hard numbers in each of those areas. It doesnt provide a history view of the ups and downs like the graphs in the game but it can be helpful.

I should setup many continually hosting games and gather the data. I might need to get some programming help in that from lch or Ballbarian or DrPratorious

Re: Brain Dead AI Nations
 

You can use something like:

dom321 --allai --superhost --scoredump --postexec /home/dom/dominions3/savescores.sh mygame

Where savescores.sh just copies the scores.html to a unique filename, Try it with the Dawn of Dominions map.

Re: Brain Dead AI Nations
 

Thanks.
But then Id like to read the data into a cvs file and make historical graphs with something like ghost or imagemagick. Or a nice running tally of highest and lowest in each score category.

Re: Brain Dead AI Nations
 

That's what children and grad students are for!

-Max

Re: Brain Dead AI Nations
 

On the small side!? Its a 1500 province map! :eek:

Well I guess the Indep str of 9 could be lowered... But there is nothing more boring than plowing through weak provinces! :(

Here is the research screen:

Re: Brain Dead AI Nations
 

lch:

I am not really sure if it's true. I found AI doing really great against 9 independents sometimes.

The realy change comes when you use Better Independents mod though. Normal AI turns to be as strong as Impossible one before the mod.

Re: Brain Dead AI Nations
 

Which version of this mod is the best to use? They seem to all have their faults...

Also...Besides the BI mod has anyone found that the CBM mod helps the AI?

Re: Brain Dead AI Nations
 

Better Independents 2.0 works just fine [but don't enslave or charm indie troops]. That makes AI recruit only national troops.

Some other hints:
- use normal research as at some point AI cannot effectively increase research rate
- use supplies at 300, AI loves to starve troops
- avoid lots of water and water nations [AI cannot deal with attacking water]
- set AI to aggressive :)

Re: Brain Dead AI Nations
 

Sorry on the map. For some reason it looked smaller than mine do.

The problem with Indie strength and Arcos seems to be that if Arcos loses its first army too soon then it falls way behind due to focusing on research (supposedly).

Re: Brain Dead AI Nations
 

By which BI version I mean resources, gold, or both?

A few things here:

You cannot change the AI settings when using a modded AI. I do use very difficult research settings and gold at 50. I also use resources and supplies at 300. The main reasons for this is playing on such a big map you need to scale things back so they dont get out of control. I used to play with half or normal resouces but I maxed that to see if it would help the AI. I am getting about the same results. As you can see on the map I do use water and all water nations but that is not really the problem. The only thing I am trying to improve on is early expansion...whatever happens later is fine with me!

Re: Brain Dead AI Nations
 

I use BI w/ both and haven't had any problems. The resource-only version worked okay too, but apparently the AI makes suboptimal purchasing decisions in that case.

Note that you *can* set AI difficult/attitude when using a modded AI, if by "modded" you mean "modified using map or mod commands." What you can't do is generate the pretender *using the in-game GUI* and start the game as a human, then set to AI. What you can do is generate the pretender as part of a custom map scenario (modify the map you're going to play) and set it to AI from the very beginning. Note that you can make the AI pretender pretty much arbitrarily powerful in that case, too, and/or give him some starting items or SC companions. For instance, you could let each AI nation start out with 1 Ophan commander. :) (Ashdod national summons.)

Oh, yeah, I suspect setting research to Easy might be a good idea. The AI doesn't really seem to target its research very well, unlike a human, so if you set it to Easy research there's a slightly higher chance of the AI having the right spells it needs for a given situation. (Whereas a human will just compensate for harder research by beelining for the most important spells.)

-Max

Re: Brain Dead AI Nations
 

iceboy:

Unfortunately game does not work in SP on big maps. The thing getting out of control will happen, no matter what settings you use. And lowering gold and resources hurts AI [especially when you add higher indies].

If your goal is to improve their early game I'd suggest just adding some starting units to the map file. If you want to give them melee SC you should use #clearmagic, so he goes to melee instead of casting stupid spells.

Re: Brain Dead AI Nations
 

Since this is all for single-player, you could have Easy or Normal research and take Drain 3 for your nation. -2 RP for each of your mages will slow down YOUR research by quite a lot, but of course it depends on your nation.

Re: Brain Dead AI Nations
 

Thanks! Ive tried to find a guide on how to mod my map with AI types and difficulty but cannot seem to find this. Any tips?

Which AI type makes a more competitive SP play?

Aggressive, Defensive, or Normal?

Also does the CBM mod improve SP AI play?

Re: Brain Dead AI Nations
 

Take a look at the SemiRand program. Except for some slight things (such as adding @ for a random sign) its files are just text files that get added to a .map file

The files available with SR provide examples of programming provinces with logical names, populations, defenses, magic sites, etc. Such as, what should be there if a province is named Village of Weres. It also has examples of using map commands to provide logically built gods and scales. So that the god/scales for Pangaea make sense and are different than the one for Mictlan, or Ermor, or Ulm.

Re: Brain Dead AI Nations
 

By "which makes for more competitive SP play" do you mean in the vanilla mode? Or which can make best use of map-added changes?

And I dont know about CBM. I never use it in solo play, and rarely in mp if I can avoid it.

Re: Brain Dead AI Nations
 

Vanilla...

Thanks I will look at the semi rand to find examples of modding ai difficulty and personality types modding!

hmmm I could not find this in semi rand could you point out in more detail?

Is there a list of all the modding commands anywhere?

Re: Brain Dead AI Nations
 

Yes, check the "docs" subdirectory of your Dom3 installation for modding and mapping PDFs. Edi has created an update for modding (Age of Unreason, if I recall correctly) that you can find on the forums too. Edi's version has a few more commands documented, and you can also check the progress page (http://ulm.illwinter.com/dom3/dom3progress.html) for stuff that isn't documented anywhere yet because it's so new. Usually it's pretty easy to guess what the new commands do.

Example mod command: make Bashanites have str 30
#selectmonster 2010
#str 30
#end

(I happen to know what the Bashanite unit number is because I frequently add them as test opponents in battles using Shift + 'U', but if you need to learn a unit's number you can check Edi's database or else select the unit and click Ctrl + 'I'. Or maybe it's Shift + 'I', I can't remember.)

-Max

Re: Brain Dead AI Nations
 

Thanks! Hmmm Ive found everything Ive been looking for except for setting AI to Aggressive, Normal, Defensive on my map. Maybe this is not possible?

Re: Brain Dead AI Nations
 

Not from the map.
But developing an AI around the things that the AI does well, and helping it to avoid the things that AIs tend to mess up, can do alot. Such as, I personally find that the AI does better if I force it to use immobile pretenders. That way it doesnt lose them in battles and arenas.

Re: Brain Dead AI Nations
 

Not possible, because the map sets up the *nation*. You still have to pick whether the *player* will be a human or an AI, and if it's an AI whether it will be Impossible/Mighty/etc. and Aggressive/Normal/Defensive. In theory you could use map commands to make yourself start out with a couple of extra SCs too, but how much fun would that be? Use map commands to buff nations that you're going to set to AI, unless you're designing a tricky scenario (e.g. tiny little five-province LA Marignon facing down massively developed LA Ermor--but Bogus and company have arrived to turn the tide!).

-Max

Re: Brain Dead AI Nations
 

Just thought I would give an update on some different things I am trying on my map to improve the AI.

I am now getting better AI results using a combo of:

CBM Mod 3.1
BI Mod 2.1 (Resources)
Resources at 200

Still using these settings:

Money at 50
Indies at 9

Here is the current situation as compared to the last time:

There is much more expansion for all nations and Arcos is doing much better!

Re: Brain Dead AI Nations
 

Also still using: Very Difficult Magic Research

Re: Brain Dead AI Nations
 

How does the Army Graph look? How often does the AI suffer losses against independents (during the first 5-10 turns, perhaps), and how much does that affect its early game?

If the AI attacks too soon, it could take a while before it gets another army that can tackle level 9 independents. You could try lowering the indep strength to 7 to see how it affects the AI.




Have you looked at Random/SemiRandom yet? It can be used to create custom gods that SemiRandom randomly gives to AI nations. You can change even more things than you can in normal Dominions, making the pretenders start with magic items or experience, probably even spesific units under it's command.



Ballbarian's thread here:
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=34826

Sample GOD file from the same thread. I've added comments, or changed Ballbarian's, when necessary. It can use all # commands listed in the Dom3 MAP-EDITING manual (map-editing and mods are different).

#god 11 138 -- nation 11 is EA Pangaea, unit 138 is Gorgon
@RANDOM comname COMMANDER
-- @commands are commands that SemiRandom can parse some way, that can be used to e.g. give a pretender one of F9, W9 or S9.

#clearmagic
#mag_earth 9
#mag_nature 4
-- pretty much what you expect

#additem "Shield of Gleaming Gold" -- hand slot
#additem "Sword of Sharpness" -- hand slot
#additem "Black Steel Helmet" -- head slot
#additem "Robe of Invulnerability" -- body slot
#additem "Boots of the Messenger" -- feet slot
#additem "Amulet of Antimagic" -- misc slot
#additem "Amulet of Missile Protection" -- misc slot
-- same here
#dominionstr 11 10
-- nation 11 (EA Pangaea) has dominion 10

#scale_chaos 11 3
-- Ea Pangaea has turmoil 3
#scale_lazy 11 1
-- sloth 1
#scale_cold 11 -1
-- heat 1
#scale_death 11 -3
-- growth 3
#scale_unluck 11 -2
-- luck 2
#scale_unmagic 11 2
-- drain 2



The amount of points isn't limited in any way. At most, you'll get a single message at the start of the game telling you that several nations' pretenders are better than they ought to be, but you can still give the AI nations all positive scales and a titan pretender with two magic paths at 9 and three more at level 4. You don't have to use all of these commands, either. The file name follows a format that defines the affected nation, and another .god file might only be used to ensure that EA Pangaea has good dominion and two good scales (Growth and Luck, in this case), in addition to whatever it's randomly given by Dom3.

#dominionstr 11 10
#scale_death 11 -3
#scale_unluck 11 -3

Re: Brain Dead AI Nations
 

The SemiRand program is fantastic but has never quite received the support from the players that we hoped for. If you find it useful then PLEASE add to it by sending in ideas for provinces and gods so that the "random" part of it has more to select from.

Re: Brain Dead AI Nations
 

Another really cool change I am seeing by using the CBM mod is watching the arena fights. So much difference! Its not just a smite fest. Many varied tactics and spells are used which is very cool and which I am sure translates to the battlefield as well. I have not watched many battles yet as I am mostly rolling over indies but it will be interesting to see when I come up against the AI opponents.

Thanks Ill take a look at the SemiRand program and see if I can figure it out...

Here is the current army graph:

Re: Brain Dead AI Nations
 

Is there a way to make the AI player "Impossible" once you turn the control over to AI after shepherding it through a few early turns? As far as I could see it, the only option when you hand over control is "Average."

It would obviously boost the AI performance a lot if you can make the AI "Impossible" after you give it a good foundation playing it yourself.

Re: Brain Dead AI Nations
 

You can build a nation using map or mod commands which exceeds player limits, then play it a bit and turn it AI. Or you can build such a nation and start it in a game with higher than normal settings. But as far as I know there is no way to become an impossible setting AI in mid game.

Re: Brain Dead AI Nations
 

Thank you. I appreciate your comments on this.
I always considered CBM to be a balancing mod built around player actions and designed for MP games. Not designed around AI. So the comments are helpful. Possibly I will add a version of vsAI games with CBM to my server. (the vsAI games get more play than the CBM games seem to)

There are other mods which have been designed specifically around the improvement of the AI. Some I have agreed with, others not so much. Personally I feel that the best ones are the ones which work with a specific nation. Where someone has put alot of thought into exactly what Mictlan does and doesnt do well as an AI. And another mod which put thought into what Ctis does or doesnt do well as an AI.

Gandalf Parker