OT: The ambiance and setting (part 3)
 

part 1: http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showt...t=41273&page=5
part 2: http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showt...t=41368&page=4

MAKING A GAME ----- _~/PART THREE\~_: the setting

the setting WILL be 16th-17th century history. this is a fruitful setting due to the clash of weaponry and military styles happening at this point; polearms, maces, swords, bows, crossbows, firearms, cavalry, cannon, were all being experimented with and used together in ways that no other time in history has ever seen. the new technologies in metallurgy breathed a last bit of life into armors and older styles of handheld weaponry and new developments in crossbows and experiments with firearms changed the role of both infantry and cavalry. heavy polearms were developed (for protecting the slow firearms and bowmen), new styles and faster swords where designed (for finding the weak spots in the new carbonized steel armors that couldn't be hacked at), and more maces with new designs for not glancing off armor where put into use (for delivering impact damage against more resilient armor and fighting in the new styles and formations with cavalry who now used mobility and close range rather than shocks and charge due to better missile weapon technology). cannon also was developed, and large standing armies combined with siege warfare became the norm. sea battles took on new twists with new cannon, sail, and ship design technology. All in all it was a very rich time for the combination of weaponry and military styles as humans were experimenting with and attempting to adapt old methods to the new technologies.

Very few fantasy games that I know of actually place their settings in the 16th century. This is a time of more standardized warfare, less enchantment and magic, less frontier. The time of protestants, rationalists, humanists, Francis Bacon and the new forms of knowledge and philosophy. Really, the only games I can think of that will use this setting to any degree are the Final Fantasy series. its mixture of magic and high technology are the perfect fit with the clash of the old and new that was happening in this time, and the rest of FF's setting, the dress, the styles, the towns and rhetoric, all follow suit.

My current idea is to pull some dominions nations into this setting. Since there will be no dom4, it isn't like there is any danger of awkwardly overlapping; there's a little room for creative license. Maybe call it "4rth Age" or something. I don't want this to simply be like Heroes of Might and Magic in dom setting though. So it can't be just like "there's this unit and this unit and blah blah blah", rather, how would the nations look in Late Renaissance garb?

the humans have mostly taken over.

disenchantment, skepticism of church.

the old 'sacreds' (which tended to be non human too) now exist in fewer numbers, maybe arn't sacred, are even disdained.

non-humans are mistreated rather than revered.

what else? the 'fairy and fey' nations would have to all but disappear. oddly enough, their real life national counterparts had much lesser roles in world affairs during that time too. i'm having a hard time figuring what to do with nations like Vanheim et al.

Re: OT: The ambiance and setting (part 3)
 

Can you actually do this? Have you read the copyright/trademark thread (which start as discussion about releasing source code of Dom3 if it becomes obsolete)?

Re: OT: The ambiance and setting (part 3)
 

hmmm he could just make new nations based on nations that existed at that time.. since he seems to want to eliminate magic too it would pretty much be very different than dominions nations as long as he gave them different names. While dom3 has original content which he shouldn't touch it can't be forbidden to base nations on the same nations of old that KO did

Re: OT: The ambiance and setting (part 3)
 

I also think it is possible, as long as you just get inspired by the nations. And not copy anything. I think the following would be acceptable for example:

Abyssia, a nation of strong people who live close to a group of active volcanoes. They have harnessed the steam power of these volcanoes to power their large smithies. (Which is a bit more steampunk, but that is also very like FF). Their people are strong and well armoured, can withstand high heat. But they lack gunpowder weapons, and other ranged weaponry (gunpowder and bowstrings tend to ignite in the high volcano heat).

In earlier days there also lived a group of intelligent half man half dinosaur people who where accustomed to the intense heat of the lava flows. Averaging at two and half meters tall, with dark black and red scales, these non-humans where the ideal inhabitants of the caves surrounding the volcanoes.

The early Abyssians regarded them as half-gods with control over the volcanoes, and offered themselves as slaves to them. Eventually this led to interbreeding. And now the half-dinosaurs are all but extinct. But most of the abyssians have some strange features, such as little body hair, darkened skin, and an tendency to develop horns and scales. Some even have tails and cloven hoofs as feat.

The abyssians where a peaceful and hard-working tribe. Taking pride in creating ornamental clothing out of metal, using the ore and heat which was so abundant in their region.

All this changed when the explorer Dante Alighieri arrived in the main underground volcano city of the abyssians. He had been found in the wilderness, malnourished and running a dangerous fever. The abyssians tended to him as best as they could, but the hot climate, and the lack of proper medicine quickly took his toll. And the Abyssian high dragon (king) ordered his finest guards to escort the sick Alighieri to the nearest non-abyssian trading post.

After weeks of fighting his high fever, Alighieri finally fought of his terrible disease. But he was changed forever, for in his fevers dreams he had seen the devil himself. They had dragged him to hell itself, where they used heat and strange rituals to torture him further. Eventually he wrote a book about his travels, and the country of Abyssia was described in the "Inferno" chapter. The "Purgatorio" and "Paradiso" chapters described his visits to the countries of Pangaea and Caelum.

When the Dante's inferno was finally read by the holy church, they saw it as a sign of god and started a crusade against the Abyssians. Army after army was send towards the southern lands to cleanse it of the unholy 'demons'. At first these wars went well for the crusaders, the Abyssians where unaware of the threat, and had little time to prepare. But after a few years of fighting, the tide turned on the crusaders. Using the iron and lava to create superior arms and armour, the Abyssians fought a successful campaign against the invaders. And in the end, going on a crusade was considered to be a death sentence.

But the Abyssians had changed forever. No longer peaceful and creative, they had become bitter, vengeful and warlike. Using lava flows as death-traps, and enslaving and torturing invaders. Many ex-crusaders now work in the heated underground cities of the Abyssians, mining ever more ore for the hungry Abyssian warmachine.

This was three hundred years ago. And there has been war ever since. Not always as grand and open as the crusades during the dark ages. But border clashes and hatred between the two people is still very common.

Note: Yeah I was bored. And I got inspiration. Of course it isn't totally a dom3 abyssia version. As you could argue that they are a bit to 'dwarf' like because they have a lot of smiths and metal weapons. And they are back to the roots of EA abysia, having strongly armoured infantry.

But I thought the usage of slaves as labour would have a bit of blood magic feel in it. And the non-human roots would give it the devil roots.

Re: OT: The ambiance and setting (part 3)
 

unless they've copyrighted history and mythology, of course I can. all concepts used are history and myths, down to the names themselves. The Monkey people of Bandar Log, and the _name_ Bandar Log as the name associated with the monkey people, is itself actually taken from another classic narrative: The Jungle Book. The whole 'Mount Kailasa' narrative, and even what a 'Markata' is, and the 'demonic' nation of Lanka. These are all things drawn almost wholesale from actual history and mythology. Saying I couldn't use them would be like saying there is a University of KO teaching classic literature, mythology, and folklore and that NO one can use the mythology and folklore it teaches, that it owns it. The mass majority of the content in Dominions is public domain.

All dominions has done is placed this content in a war game setting with a particular game system that it can claim as its own. there are no unique characters and only some very loose unique storylines with some unique units. however part of the whole point of this '4th age' is to move into a new type of game in a new time setting were I would be outside of the unique portions of the dominions system and narratives and free to simply draw upon the bricolage of history and myth it has already used. I wouldn't use unit names or descriptions because they would be unapplicable to my game. I'm simply imagining with the same historical and mythological content that Dominions has already imagined upon, but in new settings, namley the 16th-17th centuries. I'm not using descriptions, the system, nor the images. Outside of that, dominions doesn't have much unique content, not even its name associations. Only a very unique concept that using and staying close to open content like history and mythology can create an engaging world. But such a concept itself isn't really copyrightable.

Re: OT: The ambiance and setting (part 3)
 

My understanding is that you can take the same concept and build from that, but you can't copy the original. Neither Shrapnel Games or Illwinter should allow unrelated projects (that aren't direct homage, perhaps not even then) to incorporate such important parts of what makes Dominions what it is. I'm not sure if it's protected by copyright, but I'm pretty sure you aren't allowed to just copy it like that.

Infernos, nation of people whose ancestors cross-bred with fire elementals would be fine, but Abysia, nation of people who were created to be slaves to the original Abysians but out-bred their creators wouldn't.

Thing is, even though Bandar Log is a generic name, castes as different species of monkeys isn't a generic idea. Caelum as a name for flying creatures isn't anything special, but Caelians as winged zarathustran people divided into three tribes (martial, seraph mages, harab necromancers) is.

Pangaea is pretty much conglomeration of minotaurs, centaurs, dryads, panii etc from Greek myths, so you might have a case with Pangaea, as long as you don't include the combination of LA Pangaea lore. Iron as a relatively new invention, black dryads and dryad hoplites, centaurs as the civilized fighters and minotaurs as the sacred keepers of ancient traditions, Panii being the most massively built etc... you could take some of these features, but not all.

Re: OT: The ambiance and setting (part 3)
 

You might also have problems if you take all/many of the dominions nations and use them together, even if each is changed enough that it wouldn't be an issue on it's own.

On the other hand I'm not sure how Dominions gets away with illithids and aboleths.

Re: OT: The ambiance and setting (part 3)
 

I think the species of monkeys as castes is drawn _exactly_ from the mythology and literature of the Ramayana; it isn't dominions unique at all.

You have a point on _how_ the Caelian tribes are split up, or using Pan piecemeal but not in whole. However, going into a new time period I wouldn't be interested in simply reusing this stuff, I'd want to imagine how it would have changed. The closest I'd ever come to using their whole unique categorizations might be in sort of using the history of dominions as history. I'm not interested in copying their content at all, I'm really hoping to create new content inspired by the trajectory of Dominions.

I'm not sure about your whole Abysian point. They are an odd nation in that they are fantasy, rather than mythology, built. Their backstory concept isn't anything unique to history though. I'm just not sure. If any nation might raise copyright trouble on attempting to draw content from into a 16th century setting, it would be them.

If for any reason I would have to come up with some shade of a story (like Infernos) I would simply drop the whole idea; that's just too lame. It would be like having to come up with a shade of a concept: like making some Star Trek spinoff called "Galaxy Trek" or something, with the "Kringons" who weild "Battleteks". It smacks of everything I despise. I have no hang up on using the Dominions world, I really don't care. I just am much more interested in doing the coding and making the game rather than spending lots of time trying to find something to base it off of.

I have a half completed world base already in mind, but all of the world and its races were really just different perspectives of humanness or human history anyway; I was finding it very hard to actually imagine something that was different from what is humanlike. With that problem, I thought I might as well use the dominions stuff since it pretty much embraces all the humanlikeness in mythology, but push it into a time period not really touched upon in dominions. I really thought the player base would enjoy that; rather than be a bunch of troglodytes hung up on copyrights.

If anyone has a problem with me using Dominions stuff, then screw it, I won't. As I said I have no concern with making a 'Dominions' game, I just want to make a game and since I'm part of the Dominions community I thought people would enjoy that. It's not like I'm trying to make something to sell here. It's free, as in freedom, and like free beer;)

Re: OT: The ambiance and setting (part 3)
 

I wouldn't mind having a d different game set in the Dominions universe, and I'd like to create some content set in it sometime in the future (3d shorts, trailer-style, or something). It's just that it isn't as easy as you think, and it'd be a pity if (some of) your work went to waste because Shrapnel was forced to take action. The secret Illwinter project might be rpg set in the Dominions universe, for all we know, or they might have plans for the future of Dominions.



The time period is good, but if you're toning down the Dominions influences there's too little to go by.

Will there be magic? Will there be armies? Will there be sieges? Will there be monsters?


Since this is also athmosphere, how will in-game traveling be implemented? How long will it take if you just walk from a city to another? Let's say that they're relatively close to each other but not nearby; "three days' walk". Will you require food, shelter? If there's a river, can the character just walk through it, or will it be dangerous some way?

Re: OT: The ambiance and setting (part 3)
 

it's a roguelike. that should answer all your questions.


PS. I think the only roguelike in history that encountered copyright issues was TOME using content from Pern, and then it was using unique literary content, not reappropriations of history and mythology. I don't think the content of dominions is copyrightable, only the particular ways in which it organized it to construct its nations. however I'm moving into it into a 'new age' in which the organization and construction of nations and bits of story around them must necessarily change. I'm most concerned with avoiding doing something that KO is already doing, because I hear that he will not work on anything related to what someone else is doing (mod-wise, you know). I was thinking that since there is no Dom4, there is no danger of the dominions nations being portrayed in 16-17 century garb, so it would be a good setting. However, if there is too much overlap between this and IW's secret project, I would of course find some other setting.

(this is my conniving way of getting a better peek at aforementioned secret project)

Re: OT: The ambiance and setting (part 3)
 

So that's a yes for magic?
Is it based on dungeons, or does it also have wilderness?

It might help in borrowing Dominions mythology. Here's what Kristoffer had to say about Ed Kolis' attempt at Dominions roguelike back in 2004:

From the seriousness of these threads, I thought this would be a major project, something similar to Mount & Blade, eventually aimed for commercial release. I suggest that you take that as a compliment. :D
For some reason, roguelikes are rarely bothered by copyright holders. That's probably why they're called rogues. :p

Re: OT: The ambiance and setting (part 3)
 

sorry for the terse answer

it will be a roguelike, but more in the tradition of maybe a game like Uncharted Waters or Ogre Battle, or UW fused with OB. Overland travel, trading if desired, battles maybe, but mostly just RPG stuff; encounters and items and character advancement stuff. Encounters are largely with other humanoids, and not an unecessarily large host of random monsters including lice, rabbits, and newts (but there will be troglodytes). Also like Uncharted Waters and Ogre Battle, I'd like the player to be able to have an entourage, and for overland battle to switch to a tactical screen (tactical screen will be more like typical roguelike battle); city and dungeon encounters will already be on this tactical level. I suppose sieges are possible, but current goal is to get a system and character creation and ONE city working.

Lastly, unlike a roguelike, it will not be tiles (or rather, pixels are treated like tiles), thus objects can occupy more than one tile. objects will probably just be circular masks (or tokens) with an alpha-numeric glyph on top, which is good because it allows sprites to be added later. maps and such will be either handpainted or built in tile-like fashion randomly or from text files.

Re: OT: The ambiance and setting (part 3)
 

Very promising! I guess the "tiles" could include homages to magic sites.

You really should ask someone (perhaps Kristoffer, since he liked the idea earlier) for permission on using Dominions mythology, if you haven't done it already. As I said, it'd be a pity for any work go to waste.


Also, I'm not sure what kind of discussion you'd like to see. What different nations would look like, or what the city could be like, or what?

Re: OT: The ambiance and setting (part 3)
 

You are underestimating the amount of original work by Kristoffer. There isn't that much details on monkey nations in indian myth, or at least not that much that has entered into dominions. A fair bit of it is Kristoffer utilisimg human indian society on Bandar Log. Bandar Log were put into being due to a single sentence in the book travels to Cathay by Swedish historian Dick Harrisson, that mentioned an indian myth of a monkey kingdom. As far as I know there is no systematic treatment of the monkey kingdom in Ramayana, certainly none where various species of monkeys and apes makes up different castes. No mention of tiger riding white markatas. No levitating Gurus. No suggestion that serpent kings or devas ruled over the monkeys. The same sort of added stuff is extant in all nations. Many of them have strong counterparts in history and myth, but all of them have significant fluff added and changed in them.

I don't think Kristoffer would mind if you uses dom content for a roguelike, but I feel your characterisation of Kristoffers input into the dominions nations is misguided at best. Reading you posts it sounds like all these nations were just waiting to be plucked out of obscurity, whole cloth.

Re: OT: The ambiance and setting (part 3)
 

[falls out of chair] Wait--do you mean to tell me that Agarthan history isn't strictly factual? That the story of the fall of Ermor has been embellished? That the dilution of pure Abysian blood may have been more prosaic Darwinian reality than romantic tragedy? That, just maybe, Bog Beasts don't really exist except in KO's storytelling?

I feel like someone just killed Santa Claus. It's probably better if I just refuse to believe you, Johan.

-Max

Re: OT: The ambiance and setting (part 3)
 

Fair enough. I've always thought that the most impressive work of KO was his research into cultures and mythology and then mapping this onto their history. I do understand that some flavor specifics such as levitating Rikshi's and specifics in the organizations and constructions of nations are all his own; but I really find the whole bricolage aspect of it all much more creative and grand, rather than those kinds of details.

to that end, it is that bricolage that I want to borrow and build upon.

Re: OT: The ambiance and setting (part 3)
 

yes. what I'm looking for is ideas on what happens after LA. concepts from 16th-17th century must be present. by this time, european influence had been felt around the world, and their trappings of discipline, efficiency, and rationalization were erasing old cultures all over the world in a very significant way.

For Man, Mari, Ulm, Boguras, et al it is probably most appropriate to map events of European history onto these nations. Does Ulm becomes fragmented in a sort of treaty of Westphalia, or somthing like that?

What happened in Patala? Do the Naga's maintain power? Does Man invade and colonize them? Who are these Naga's anyway? Where did they come from? Do the old divinities of Bandar Log and Kailasa return to save the land from the incursion of other nations? Or do the culturally unifying myths erode under the influences of new 'dominion'?

This isn't a war between pretenders for ascendancy like Dominions, so colonization is the new 'dominion'. who are these new pretenders? how do humans treat some of the old and fading fairy and fey figures?

What happens to Machaka? Does Mari invade and ship them off to be slaves? Or does their mountain god and Colossal Fetish fight it out and save this culture to develop in new ways?

What happens to Blood Magic? Does Man and other nations successfully eradicate it only to replace it with some other form of more insidious magical power?

Questions like these.

Re: OT: The ambiance and setting (part 3)
 

Unfortunately, none of this happens to any of these nations, because Hinnom (and Ashdod) Ate Everything. Except for the ones who wound up in the Dreamlands.

;)

-Max

Re: OT: The ambiance and setting (part 3)
 

that would make it Dreamlands vs the Giants then. sounds like an engaging world. I'll have to start a thread titled "Dreamlands martial arts vs. Giants martial arts"

Re: OT: The ambiance and setting (part 3)
 

here is a decent example of what I'm looking for in pulling nations into this 'post-LA' age of 16-17 century settings. I chopped it together by simply doing a bit of research on England's Early Modern History. It segue's almost seamlessly with LA Man. Most nations should do this since a lot of LA is drawn from the trends of their historical counterparts leading into the 1500's (for example Man's declining magic).

My intention with Man and a lot of other nations is to portray the eclipse of religion by politics and philosophy as not a stagist historical epoch, but simply the replacement of one 'dominion' by another. the new spreading of modernity and revolution and then onwards into colonialism is part and parcel of the classic dominion spread. Get it?

Magic for man isn't so much gone as it is being reimagined. The text above implies it is gone, but that's not exactly what I have in mind. I'm more thinking that the way man thinks about magic is changing with their politics and philosophy. basically, the effects of a magic scale might be completely reversed to reflect this.

I hope this clarifies what I'm imagining a little.

Re: OT: The ambiance and setting (part 3)
 

Caelum might all become wingless (to represent the influence of Islam?)

these wingless might become influenced by raiders from N. Tien Chi (the mongols)

together they invade BL where the old myths and cultures become background (seems pretty typical for BL). the nation becomes culturally fragmented, or an admixture at best, of some of the monkey people, some wingless, and maybe some kind of TC influence.

Re: OT: The ambiance and setting (part 3)
 

Well I'd agree with was said before.. Just ask KO.. IMHO it's a very nice idea you have here and if you want to know what the person with most rights in copyright stuff etc thinks about it you'll just have to ask him. It's not like he's unreachable or something.. he's a frequent visitor. In the meanwhile I'd not diminish his accomplishments with dominions 1-2-3 too much :D

Re: OT: The ambiance and setting (part 3)
 

Imitation is the greatest form of flattery. The very existence of this project should be praise and honor to KO's accomplishments.

to that end, I'll shut up now, lest what is banter over what is/isn't copyrightable somehow become misconstrued as diminishing KO's work. CR is actually a moot point, because if IW would rather I not do this, regardless of what could be copyrighted, I wouldn't do it.

Re: OT: The ambiance and setting (part 3)
 

Would you keep Ulm with the vampiric influence, or would you rather have the secret order take over the whole nation? Local counts and nobles and such would claim they're in power and there would be no visible leader to the land, but everyone would have at least one Member of the Second Tier close to him.

Agarthan humans would have run out of both statues and corpses of the inhuman Agarthans, so I don't know what would be left for them to revere. Perhaps they'd inherit earlier Ulm's craftsmanship and become neo-dwarvish society of underground metalworkers. In game terms, even if it's different, Agarthan city/town is probably the best way to have an underground shop/inn/training area (as a roguelike, I imagine it will have vast and deep dungeon complexes).

Abysia would probably be a nation of humanbreds, with just a "ruling family" of Abysians, or at least humanbreds who claim to be closer to the Abysian bloodlines. The rulers would be some kind of priest-kings, and the nation would probably be the main source of Sceptres of Authority/Wands of Wild Fire/Rods of the Phoenix. Sceptres would probably mark a community leader, while Rod of the Phoenix could be a very rare quest item. Speaking of combat styles, some kind of Abysian two-dagger-fighting remnant of the assassin cult should be available.

Pangaea would probably not exist as a nation or even cities/towns. Centaurs would serve as high-ranking warriors, satyrs would travel around as rogues rather like Dragonlance kender, dryads would be rare priestesses and nature mages and objects of worship by the common humans. Minotaurs would be rare, probably all some kind of Grove Guards, or perhaps bodyguards for the dryads. Panii would have mostly disappeared.

Will you have any underwater races? You could just say that the dreamlands dominion depopulated all the seas, and the death of their god killed all the remaining illithids, tritons, dreamers and most Atlantians. The few remaining atlantians would be in the far north and only rarely heard of.

Perhaps a Gath-Jotunheim war (fire giants vs frost giants) could have broken out? I don't know if that's a good idea, though.

Vanheim would be Sweden, but closer to the 30 years war time. Swedish cavalry was reformed and had superior tactics for a while there; they charged firing their pistols, changed to swords at the last moment, cut and trampled and devastated their enemies, and then returned to where the accompanying squad of infantry kept them safe from counter-charges (with pikes and muskets). They could be a small nation that has recently conquered Milesia (Eriu) near the kingdom of Man. Tuatha and Vanir both changed the people under their rule, so even with the Vanir almost nonexistant the new Vanheim could be the last land of truly wild magic, with Amulets of Lycanthropos and Air buff-spells and minor charms more easily available, and most important people having fey ancestry or tendency to change shape during full moon, or at least some magical tricks up in their sleeves.

Re: OT: The ambiance and setting (part 3)
 

I love all of it!

On Gath though I was thinking it would be more 16th-centurish if they were thrown into a diasporia and wound up dispersed around Ulm. As a state they would basically disappear, but there would still be a nation. One might encounter peoples and perhaps giant kin of gath, who still speak of their 'nation' though no state exists. They would have distinct features due to their giant ancestry and in some areas would be forced to live in ghettos. Exclusion from artisian guilds in these areas forces them to become merchants.

For Ulm, perhaps turmoil and power vacuums in the wake of the civil war referenced in LA has enticed Man and Mari to also become involved within the internal wars and strife of Ulm for political and religious reasons. Ulm is another nation which had no sovereign state during this time, but was very split up between feuding nobles. Yet, the influence of a unifying religion was also in outright conflict, and not present to hold the nation together. I suppose in that light, it would best to allow a full blown vampiric influence.

Everything is great.

I was also thinking Pan would almost not exist as a nation any longer too.

For Argatha, I'd actually want to do a little research and see _where_ the fabled entrances are, and try and place them in relation to other nations.

Sounds great on Sweden too. I'm not sure on N. European history. So any expert comments there are great.

I hadn't considered UW nations too much. I'm just not sure. They won't be priority at first.

Abysia is probably pretty straightforward. would need to place them geographically.

Something that is decidedly lacking from Dominions (for obvious reasons) is any actual relationship between its nations, or static geography. This game will have to have a lot of these things. This though is half of what makes making this rendition so fun, but also it needs to be done carefully.

Another thing this is decidedly lacking is France. There are actually some other important world influences, but they can very easily fall under 'independent tribes', since the nation, not to mention the state, didn't really exist for most of the world. But France did have a nation and it was very important during this time. I don't want to create a France though... It would feel too outside of canon. History-wise, it would be an offshoot of Ermor... Perhaps the wife of some king from Ermorian-Ulmish influences got raped by an Atlantian sea beast and birthed a bastard child who went on to create "France", or whatever name could be found for it. See, that's taking mythology and history seriously, this stuff is too good to make up.

Re: OT: The ambiance and setting (part 3)
 

I don't think it's a good idea to draw to many comparisons between real-world history and Dominions history. Gath shouldn't become Jews. Especially if there's any chance to have a Vampire Count named Adolf have anything near important position in the Ulm. And please, no rape in the backstory.

Regarding geography: just make it random. Have few neighbour-dependent quests that only appear if, say, Ulm and Marignon start next to each other. Even if you don't go that way, don't take it too seriously. The closest we're going to get is the Map That Will Never Be, and it will never be.

If you want to be serious about I, I suggest having MA Marignon without inquisitors influence France-equivalent while LA Marignon with diabolists/inquisitors influence Spain-equivalent.

Also, I don't think humans and giants ever breed with each other. The humans of Gath came from elsewhere (humanbreds, sibyls of Arcoscephale, some were close to Man, etc), and the giants grew smaller because the Nephilim bloodline became ever more and more diluted.

Re: OT: The ambiance and setting (part 3)
 

But I thought Gath was the Jewish tribes...

Random geography is a great idea. What could be done is have nations appear in clusters, so nations appropriate to be close together are always close together, but no static geography necessary. Unfortunately, I've never written a random map generation program; I wonder how dominion's works (now THAT'S getting into copyright issue). What is most likely to happen is static geography in the early stages of game development when there's also only a very few nations, and a randomizer added once there's a better fleshed out game. That will make the Map That Will Never Be, to be; too much initial ambition is what kills these things you know.

are you suggesting that Mari be stretched to fill the role of two historical entities?

Re: OT: The ambiance and setting (part 3)
 

And direct contact is the sincerest form of confirmation. ;) Pretty sure KO's email here isn't hard to find, and he reads his PMs anyways, I believe. :p


As far as Ulm goes, a fractured feudal atmosphere where most (or all!) of the lords are vampires, implies a good stage for the creation of the Illuminati, where in fact much of the real political intrigue is hidden, and the only reason Ulm has not been re-unified, is because of the code of honor that binds those lords, keeping them from killing eachother in their quest for power.


There could actually be a merging of Bandar Log and Agartha, to an extent, if Bandar were to be overrun by their neighbors. Considering the importance of the mythos of Shambala or Shangri La in that region of the world, then it would make sense if once conquered, the Bandar peoples took refuge in those cities.


Marignon of course would conquer and devastate Mictlan, and Marignon's apparent power at this time would be enormous (along with Man). Perhaps a new nation would have to rise from all of this, representing an amalgam of the French/British/Spanish colonies in the Americas. They would be highly resourceful, cunning, and wealthy because of their ruthlessness and hunger for power. Their magic would mostly consist of strange voodoo picked up in the islands, and they would eagerly pick up the best of the technological advances of their European "benefactors".


Perhaps the rise of "Rationalism" was what actually closed the Void, and ended the Dreamtime. :p People just became so skeptical, that the rise of this new "dominion" of modern thought, gave all believers innate Dream Resist (100). ;)


An interesting twist could be that this really IS just the dominion of another pretender. This pretender is actively sucking the magic from the world, to empower itself as it purges the arcane mysteries from the minds of mortals, so that it can rule unopposed. ;) Maybe what our world needs now, is to rediscover magic, before it is too late and we are fully subjugated by the new Pantokrator. :eek:

Re: OT: The ambiance and setting (part 3)
 

I wouldn't worry -too- much about the map. This is ultimately a stylized and abstracted view of things from our real world. Thus, the stage for these events, can be quite stylized and abstracted. A map that had some passing similarities to our Earth (with most of the landmass in the "old world", and a smaller but naturally rich "new world" to play with), would probably do just fine.

Re: OT: The ambiance and setting (part 3)
 

Actually, what about Nagas of LA Patala taking over Agartha? The nagas are subterranean, cold-blooded, inhuman amphibians that live for centuries. If ALL the statues and ALL the corpses have been reanimated and then destroyed by the Agarthan worshippers, how could the humans now that original Agarthans weren't nagas? :p Even the magic paths come pretty close, nagas and descendants of Ktonian Necromancers cover all the paths original Agartha had access to.

EARLY Jewish tribes. Pre-Egyptian slavery, I think. Jumping from there to ghettoes is quite a leap, and even worse, it'd basically be Jews ruled over by the evil blood-thirsty Germans with plans for taking over the world. I don't usually care for political correctness if the idea works, but I don't think this is a good idea.

It'd depend a lot on implementation. It could be that I'm just paranoid and it'd work very well, with some Golem references thrown in the mix and incorporating the fluff in the Gath's tribes' descriptions (the humanbred tribe in/near Abysia, sibyl tribe near/in Arcoscephale, iron-working tribe in/near Man etc etc).

Re: OT: The ambiance and setting (part 3)
 

Well just to clarify, if you Google "Patala", you will find that it is referenced as one of the cities in the underground nation of Shambala itself, which Agartha happens to be the capital of. So, really intertwining the paths of those nations seems a no-brainer to me, especially if they fall into some sort of obscurity, where most of the world denies their existence (due to lack of empirical proof), and the only surface people who are able to reach them would be those who have the skill and tenacity to do so.

The whole thing smacks of "endgame quest hub" if it were to be an MMO. :p

Re: OT: The ambiance and setting (part 3)
 

I always wondered where those nagas came from...

would it be good to keep BL and Argatha seperate? maybe the Naga's return to the subterrenean caverns. I'm finding some ambivalence on Argatha, it is both a city (basically, Shamballa) and a complete concept of a 'place inside the hollow Earth', in which there are many Argathan cities, of which Patala is only one.

At any rate, I like the idea of the nagas returning to the underground, and the Bandar Log being left to fend for themselves again. Here the Mughal Empire could come in, and influences of Caelum and maybe some kind of horse tribe people could enter the culture of BL.

Re: OT: The ambiance and setting (part 3)
 

Nagas are the offspring of the rishi Kashyapa and one of his wives, Kadru. Kashyapa is also the father of the Devas, Asuras, and all of humanity through different wives (he had 13 of them).

Re: OT: The ambiance and setting (part 3)
 

the spanish state was only forming going into the early modern period, so what you suggest here is really pretty accurate, Endo.

Mari appears to be more a signifier for the continental western Holy Roman Empire, which was more of a nation than any collection of feudal states in what is now Spain or France. However, the theme of separation from a church identity and the beginning of the creation of nation-states under the sovereignty of a monarch is _the_ historical marker of the early modern period that I'm wanting to work with.

To that effect, I really need a France. A single 'Mari' with a little 'Man' picking up the northern continental slack while covering Britain works for pre-modern times, but there has to be a state which is basically annexes of bits of Man, Mari, and Ulm; because that's what France is and that's what it was doing right in this time period. It is too significant to ignore for a game that wants to utilize history (specifically the historical bricolage already picked up in dominions) _and_ be in the early modern period.

What is needed is a name. Historical events combined with the narrative already started in Mari can fill in the details.

Re: OT: The ambiance and setting (part 3)
 

If you're using Man as a name for Man, Chelm is free.

Re: OT: The ambiance and setting (part 3)
 

I was just about to go with Carcassonne. It'd be nice to draw from names in dominions though. I was actually wondering if I dug through the flavor texts surrounding Man, Ulm, and Mari if I'd find anything.

Re: OT: The ambiance and setting (part 3)
 

No, Gath is the Israelite tribes before they were enslaved by the Assyrians and lost to history. For instance, they've got Benjamites (yay!). That is, Gath seems to be the northern kingdom of Israel, whereas Jews come from the southern kingdom of Judah which had only a couple of tribes and was never destroyed quite so thoroughly.

Gath has approximately the same relationship to modern Jews that Inca has to modern Mexicans.

-Max

Re: OT: The ambiance and setting (part 3)
 

Hi!

I'm positive towards the project.

I don't mind if you use dominions as a backstory for your game, but I would probably get annoyed if you did what Soywieser did in his example, changing the abysian history and adding stuff that is not there in my original setting (soywiesers dinosaurs).

Upcoming projects will not include 1500-1700 nations, so I have no objections on you going creative on what might happen in the dominions future. As long as you let me keep the past I'm totally happy. And please mention dominions so people get to know the game :)

As long as particular nations are not tamperd with I don't object to history stuff either. To say that the Seers of the Deep once defeated a C'tissin army advancing upon a great Ermorian port and that this ancient battlefield now have emerged from the depths after an earthquake and it is investigated by late time archaeologists of Pythium is of course fine.

If you on the other hand say that a C'tissian army led by sauromancers advanced upon Ermor with an army of shadow hierodules, the forbearers of the shadow vestals, I would be a bit annoyed, since there is no shadow hierodule in my current conception of C'tis.

Re: OT: The ambiance and setting (part 3)
 

Thank you KO.

I was going to try remain in dom canon while sticking with (eurocentric) historical narratives as much as possible, so there should be no danger of shadow hierodules magically cropping up in C'tis culture; it just wouldn't make any sense :p

how do you feel about the nation "Marignon" becoming "Marignon" and "le Midi" (le Midi would be a Frenchy kind of nation). Is Mari supposed to be a signifier for the Holy Roman Empire that provided a sort of religious national unifier for areas stretching across Spain and France? Going into the Early Modern time period this unification weakened as kings and queens began proclaiming their authority separate from the church (after centuries of fighting it anyway) and modern nation states began to form. Some King and Queen in Castille and Aragon (I think) married with the church's blessing, beginning modern day spain, where church authority remained strong for the next century or two. Modern day France began forming when Frankish kings started claiming the southern and eastern bits of what is France today.

at least that's my rough understanding of how it started to happen. I'd like this narrative to be present, but to do that I do need a separate France and Spain.

Re: OT: The ambiance and setting (part 3)
 

The Holy Roman Empire was centered in modern day Germany and did not hold any lands in Spain and France afaik (except maybe some on the easter border of France).
In the time frame you are thinking of however both the HRE and Spain were ruled by the Habsburg family which led to wars with the French King.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Habsbur...nish_Habsburgs

This might be splitting hairs, but I think it's very interesting. It were often not the countries/empires fighting to expand their lands but the families trying to get more power.
Might well translate into Ulmish vampire bloodlines fighting for control behind the curtains.

Re: OT: The ambiance and setting (part 3)
 

I think your right, Illuminated. It seems Mari is deliberately Iberian, and the HRE wasn't involved in France Spain like I was thinking they were.

France is so entirely hybridized, its hard to find anything essential about it without having one foot in Man and the other in Ulm; i'd say the gravity of these two nations would draw away a lot of what might be "French".

Still, I'm thinking about an environment of haughty aristocracy and a priesthood of political intrigue. Here the priests are more a political entity interested in the central state, rather than the divinity. This would set it apart from Man who are a little more separate from the continental priesthood, and from Mari who are in bed with it; however it does have a bit of the theme of Ulm. But unlike Ulm which is fractured with infighting, le Midi nobles have always faced the a central state, to the point of absentee landlords who would rather spend their time in the capital than tending their estates.

I might draw imagery from Poe (Masque of Red Death), the stories of Notre-Dame, vulgar peasant fairy tales, and wandering and aloof orders of gypsies. I'd like to read about Merovin-Carolin and whatever-gians, to see if I can place the lineage of le Midi with some narrative that already exists in dominions.

Re: OT: The ambiance and setting (part 3)
 

PS

Oh, and for an epithet, and little opening quip, I like this quote:

The Fourth Age: Angel of Progress

His face is turned towards the past... The angel would like to stay, awaken the dead, and make whole that which has been smashed. But a storm is blowing from Paradise; it has got caught in his wings with such violence that the angel can no longer close them. This storm irresistibly propels him into the future to which his back is turned, while the pile of debris before him grows skyward. This storm is what we call progress.

-Walter Benjamin

or something like that. a history of war, nations in wreckage, propelling into a jaded future.

EDIT: oops, i meant to edit, not quote.

Re: OT: The ambiance and setting (part 3)
 

You know, I like that image, really. le Midi need not be a powerful nation, as a "nation". The feel of it could be based off of gypsies, winemakers, gourmands and connoisseurs, people who value culture and recreation above war and politics. Indeed, you could let what little is left of Pan, lend into le Midi, providing a basis of strong Earth and Nature magic, along with reliance on stealth and subtlety, and rounded out with a newly bolstered priesthood.

Re: OT: The ambiance and setting (part 3)
 

You could rely on the "mythology" of France which is essentially the stories of Charlemagne and the 12 Paladins, and the national epic Song of Roland. Just replace the word "saracen" with "Abysian" or whatever nation you want them to be eternal enemies with. And advance the timeline 400 years. ;)

Re: OT: The ambiance and setting (part 3)
 

whats going to happen with the areas of Italy, Greece, Turkey. Since there was the undead rome and byzantine nations. Also since your adding a france, will you also be adding a eastern europe/russia type nation

as after reading this, it sounds very interesting

Re: OT: The ambiance and setting (part 3)
 

i don't know about adding this other stuff. :(

the addition of France, while still very tempting, has been pushed aside. I realize that ultimately it is unnecessary for the game itself. dominions doesn't really have a mechanism for identifying 'europe', only some europe inspired nations. further, some bits of frenchy knightly chivalry seemed to be seeped into marignon. without a way of signifying europe, there isn't much purpose for providing the continental connection between Ulm, Man, and Marignon. A French nation could be added as extra content, but I kind see now that a lot of my initial reasons for wanting to add an explicit France are really irrelevant for the Dominions style.

besides, i've got my hands full thinking of how to bring existing nations into a Renaissance setting. i don't want to work to much on any of that until i've got ONE nation added to see how it will all work out. when I make a first playable release, it will likely only feature one nation.

i'm getting close to that though. i'm expirementing with random recruitment methods. i do want nations to recruit troops and keep track of recruited troops, even assigning troops to commanders. in a real way, each unit is embedded in its commander, unlike typical roguelikes were everything is generated independently. rather than generating single monsters, it will have to generate a commander(s) and their units.

unfortunately, school is now back in session and time is short, so development has slowed to a crawl.

Re: OT: The ambiance and setting (part 3)
 

As I said, they ARE in a Rennaissance setting already - at least most of them. You may also think of "Ermorishness" time as a period equivalen to real world Black Death - also right in the beginning of Rennaissance...
An idea of making "ancien regime" France out of Pangaea was quite good, too, I'd say - especially considering a fad for satir-nymph relationships and Amurs in Barocco period... ;)
About continental connections - I'm not sure, but I feel that Dawn of Dominions map provides something like an "official location" for various nations in EA. Then, Marignon is formed in the region where Marverni was and Pythium in former Sauromatia lands (as indicated by hydras)... Of course, Man isn't present here but there are clear indications in background text that Tir-Nan-Og, Fomoria, Man and Eriu are the same archipelago...