OT: War Bill, write your congress......
 

Please write your senator and Reps.

Tell them to vote for H.R. RES. 62 and S.J.Res.23 (senate as already passed S.J. RES. 23, they still need to vote on H.R. RES. 62)
Declaring a state of war between the United States and international terrorists and their sponsors.

Thank you for your time.

You can find your Reps at http://www.house.gov/
and your sentor at www.senate.gov

Re: OT: War Bill, write your congress......
 

Heh. The senate passed SJR 23 by a vote of 98-0. Zero Senators voted against.

I don't think you need to write and convince anyone to vote for it.

Eric

Re: OT: War Bill, write your congress......
 

Only 1 in the house voted aganist the use of force. See if she gets re-elected...

but there is always one in every world war...

------------------
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Re: OT: War Bill, write your congress......
 

Her vote wasn't against taking action - but to remind Mr.Bush that he has to go through Congress next time there needs to be military action.

Listen carefully to her speech.

I commend her for standing up and not letting emotions take full control of the situation.

While I want the terrorists to be killed/captured - I don't more innocent people to suffer - whether they are American or Afghani or whatever.

"An eye for an eye makes the world go blind"

Destroying some third world despot country will not bring back the victims of this tragedy.

Re: OT: War Bill, write your congress......
 

Your right on the deaths, but waging a war to find and wipe out terrorist should be a key priority now. Sad it had to come to this to do it.

I think any war on Terrorism needs to be done in two phases..

To quote a Roman...

"First our Neighbors, then the World."

Re: OT: War Bill, write your congress......
 

Since we are quoting Romans, let us go back an have a look at a Greek. Plato (I believe) had some interesting things to say about how crisis situations could lead a democracy to elect a tyrant, feeling it was the best thing for them to do. When the crisis past, they found it was tough to get the powers they had given away back. Thus, the end of the democracy.

I would be interested to know the name of the Congresswoman who was so bold to stand and remind both the politicians and the people that one of the strengths of America is that it is a free and open society where the head of state is, and must be, accountable to the people. The 40 billion dollars voted to the effort is a lot of money. The legality of wire taps are being reviewed. Has America voted away some of it’s freedoms?

The crisis must be responded to, as quickly and as efficiently as possible. However, it must be done in a way which preserves the essential nature of America. Unity is good, but questioning is also good. America has many long and respected traditions to maintain, a real challenge in times of crisis.

Re: OT: War Bill, write your congress......
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Saxon:
I would be interested to know the name of the Congresswoman who was so bold to stand and remind both the politicians and the people that one of the strengths of America is that it is a free and open society where the head of state is, and must be, accountable to the people.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Her name was Barbara Lee, a democratic from Berkley. My new hero in american politics (never knew I had one).


Askan
"A million monkeys typing at a million keyBoards will not produce Shakespeare, just look at the internet" - Source Unknown
(my new favourite quote)
http://www.counterpunch.org/prashad.html
(for some story on why Afghanistan is a really crappy place to be)

Re: OT: War Bill, write your congress......
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by capt_spoogy:
Her vote wasn't against taking action - but to remind Mr.Bush that he has to go through Congress next time there needs to be military action.

Listen carefully to her speech.

I commend her for standing up and not letting emotions take full control of the situation.

While I want the terrorists to be killed/captured - I don't more innocent people to suffer - whether they are American or Afghani or whatever.

"An eye for an eye makes the world go blind"

Destroying some third world despot country will not bring back the victims of this tragedy.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Excellently said. Thank you.

Re: OT: War Bill, write your congress......
 

Heard a good opinion on this yestrday.

Rather than bomb the already starving ppl in Afghanistan, how about if NATO responded by filling up their bombers with food and dropping *that* on them. Put a big American flag and a few words in Afghanistani (arabic?) on each parcel so there can be no mistake as to who it's from.

See how many suicide bombers Bin Laden can recruit after *that*.

Obviously it's not a perfect plan (I think you'd need to arrest / assasinate a few leading terrorists as well, just to satisfy the need for justice / revenge) but it's certainly an interesting idea.

------------------
SE4 Code:
L GdY $ Fr- C- Sd T!+ Sf-- Tcp-- A% M&gt;M+ MpD! RV Pw Fq+ Nd- Rp+ G-
/SE4 Code
Go to my meagre SEIV pages to generate your own code.


EDIT: dodgy keyboard

[This message has been edited by dogscoff (edited 18 September 2001).]

Re: OT: War Bill, write your congress......
 

That's going to confuse the hell out of someone!

But it's not a bad idea. I just hope another somolia doesn't happen.....

------------------
HADRIAN T. AVENTINE
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Administrator | SpaceEmpires.org

Re: OT: War Bill, write your congress......
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dogscoff:
See how many suicide bombers Bin Laden can recruit after *that*.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
The old "Hearts and Minds" tactic 'eh? Well, it's a wonderful idea on a purely humanitarian level, but it isn't going to have an effect on global terrorism.

The Black Tuesday Hijackers weren't poor Afghanis. At least most of them weren't. I haven't examined every name on the list. The notable ones were Saudi and Egyptian nationals. And they weren't even poor. At least a couple of them were actually believed to have been commercial airline pilots at one point. Now maybe Egyptian and Saudi Airline pilots don't make as much as American airline pilots, I really don't know. But I doubt they were on the level of starving poor dirt farmers before Bin Laden pulled them out of their squalor and sent them against the Great Satan America.

For that matter Bin Laden himself is from a rich oil family.

Poverty and starvation doesn't breed terrorism. Hatred does.

Geoshmo

Re: OT: War Bill, write your congress......
 

Poverty doesn’t lead straight to terrorism and extremism, but it can make the trip a lot easier. The very poor don’t know any different, but those reasonably well off in a poor society feel the poverty more acutely. A lot of terrorists have come from middle class families and they want to help the worse off. Living here in Kenya, I have a much better feeling for injustice and poverty than I ever did in Canada. Perhaps these pilots saw the poverty at home and the riches elsewhere and got upset about it.

Hearts and Minds might not stop everyone, but 40 billion of reconstruction and food would earn a lot of good will in Afghanistan. Next time someone gets up to preach against America, people might not listen so closely or they might even stand up in the back row and say “Shut up bin Laden, those guys built the school my kids go to.” It would probably also end up taking out the Taliban, as their form of extremism wouldn’t stand up too well against material affluence. Saudi Arabia has some serious problems, but social unrest is not one of them.

One can look at the treatment of Germany after WWI and Hitler’s rise on the back of resentment to the Versailles Treaty. One can compare that to Germany after WWII and the Marshall Plan. I think Hearts and Minds can work, but it has to go all out. Not one or two million here and there, but a serious financial kick in the ***. And not just food and drugs, but serious construction, things that people see every day. Hospitals, schools, sewers, roads. Match that with Dogscoff’s assassinations (which are an excellent, low key way to punish the wrongdoers and not upset everyone else) and I think we would get somewhere.

Sure, it might not work, but we also have no guarantee that the military options will work either. As such, try and give lots of the contracts to US companies, so at least jobs are created and a lot of the cash goes back in to US economy as taxes. Not all the contracts, you also want to create jobs in Afghanistan, but lots.

Anyway, I will get back to my Technicolor world of dreams…

Re: OT: War Bill, write your congress......
 

I wish it were as simple as that. And I am sure that spending that amount of money on a country the size of Afghanistan would result in some very real short term improvements. But long term would it do any good?

There is some debate over whether the money spent in the Marshall plan was actually the cause of the spectacular resurrection of post-war Europe. A case could be made that the re-arranging of their political systems had more to do with it. That the increased freedoms of living in democratic, capitalist societies allowed them to help themselves more than the money we gave them helped.

Of course this is not something we could do easily in Afghanistan, unless the current power were removed. That sort of "American Imperialism" is the very thing that the terrorist organizations despise most about us I believe.

Geoschmo

Re: OT: War Bill, write your congress......
 

Have you ever read Milton?

Re: OT: War Bill, write your congress......
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dogscoff:
Heard a good opinion on this yestrday.

Rather than bomb the already starving ppl in Afghanistan, how about if NATO responded by filling up their bombers with food and dropping *that* on them. Put a big American flag and a few words in Afghanistani (arabic?) on each parcel so there can be no mistake as to who it's from.

See how many suicide bombers Bin Laden can recruit after *that*.

Obviously it's not a perfect plan (I think you'd need to arrest / assasinate a few leading terrorists as well, just to satisfy the need for justice / revenge) but it's certainly an interesting idea.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Your approach is a bit 'literalistic' but definitely pointed in the right direction. Once we have caught up with the individuals responsible for the actual terrorism, we need to improve our relations with the Islamic world and the "Third World" in general. While there have always been fantics around, and always will be, the pool of potential terrorists is far larger than it would be if we 'civilized' Westerners were less indifferent to the poverty and suffering of people who aren't close enough for us to actually see them in our personal lives. A campaign to extend the benefits of "globalization" to the poorest people in the world would be far more effective than eleventy-zillion dollars spent on weapons, security systems, and covert operations to combat terrorism directly. In the meantime, we will have to spend some money on these, though.

But in the end, dmm's observation is important to remember. I feel certain he is referring to Satan's famous line in Milton's Paradise Lost: "'Tis better to rule in Hell than serve in Heaven". Yes, some people want power for themselves at literally any cost. But not very many. Since some people are just plain crazy, we will never totally eliminate the threat of terrorism, but we can sure reduce the number of other people who see it as viable option, and become pawns for the really crazy ones.

[This message has been edited by Baron Munchausen (edited 18 September 2001).]

Re: OT: War Bill, write your congress......
 

Baron, you're almost right about my reference. Actually it is a Star Trek (original series) reference, from the episode with Khan (Botany Bay?). The point in that episode is pretty much what you've said. But then in "The Wrath of Khan" we see him quoting Milton again, and this time it is clear that he is motivated solely by hatred (of Kirk, and, by extension, Starfleet and the Federation) and by revenge.

We should of course try to redress past wrongs, and also extend charity to the less fortunate. But there are very many in the world -- hundreds of thousands, if not millions -- who would take our peace offerings and then spit in our face. This doesn't mean that we shouldn't do what is right and good, but only that we shouldn't do it simply in expectation of a grateful response. It is well that "a good deed is its own reward" because all too often "no good deed goes unpunished."

Re: OT: War Bill, write your congress......
 

I don't see why we should use taxpayer money to just hand to people in the 3rd world. What kind of message would that send? Blow up buildings and your people shall be rewarded? Meanwhile countless other 3rd world countries that are more impoverished and that don't harbor terroists get $0.00 from us. What kind of ****ed up idea is that? You can't make anything better by injecting money into a hopeless economy where it will just be corrupted away and vanish in days. You'll only be wasting your money, and sending some pretty bad Messages. One of them is "Look at us, we're the United States. We're better than everyone else. We're fixing your ****ed up country because you can't take care of ourselves. Don't you love us?" I'm no conservative, but I can see that this ultra-liberal, carebear approach to world politics leads nowhere but down.

Since I'm getting so fond of talking about sending Messages in this post, here's the message we should send: "Trade with us, sign treaties with us, we will help your economies, sometimes out of the goodness of our hearts, but don't ever, EVER **** with us. If you do, you'll regret it for the remaining few days you and all your followers have left to live." We need to hunt down and destroy the organization that was involved in the catastrophe, then we need to hunt down and destroy other terrorist organizations that weren't involved so that everybody in the world will know not to ever do something like it ever again.

If these "rogue states" won't hand over the terrorists, we should declare war on their leadership. Not on their people, mind you, but on the fanatical morons that run those countries. They are a blight on the world, and they all deserve to die. They're hateful, self-righteous bigots who exploit their own people and turn them against convenient scapegoats. There will always be people like that in the world, but they should never be allowed positions of leadership in any country, anywhere. The fact that they do lead certain countries is a grave mistake and because of the attack and those governments' refusal to help, the US now has the power, the right, and maybe even the obligation to fix that mistake and make the world a better place. Maybe this sounds too harsh for some people, but it is necessary and it is more than justified.

Re: OT: War Bill, write your congress......
 

Gritsucker,

To reply to your core points, you point to a waste of tax payers’ money. It seems to me that you are going to spend 40 billion on this project one way or another. If my way will stop the terrorism and leave a nation with schools, hospitals and good will to the US, is it a bigger waste of money that 40 billion of bombs and an angry state of ten year olds waiting to grow up and avenge daddy?

Geoschmo has some good points, the Marshal Plan worked for many reasons, not just straight cash. However, the essence of the project was “Ok Germany, you made a big mess of things, now we are going to fix it up for you and foot the bill.” This “Carebear approach” has as a result, the US gaining widespread respect from the Germans of that generation and a nice, stable, healthy ally in Central Europe. Compare that to, as I said earlier, the response of the German nation to the punishment of the Versailles Treaty.

Both you and I have advocated for the violent removal of the leadership of terrorist Groups, but I am presenting an idea of what we should do to the rest of the people, so that we don’t have another terrorist attack in ten or twenty years. You are right, the US should do something to make the world a better place. However, you need to be a bit careful how you do it.

Right now, the US is in a frenzy. I am a sub-contractor to State Department and the email I get from them shows a government jumping at slammed doors and fearing it’s own shadow. Everyone wants vengeance. I hear you. So does the rest of the world. But, how you do it is going to have a big impact on how we look at you afterwards. You say you have the right to retaliate and I will not argue with you. What I will say is that you also have an obligation, as a member of the community of nations, to check in and listen to the rest of the world. And you have an obligation to try and make it a better world, not just one that leads to more terrorists later.

To put my colours on my sleeve, I have a dead friend, a Kenyan, who died in the Nairobi Embassy bombing in 98. When I visit her husband and talk to the teenage kids, I remember their mom. I also have a friend who can’t walk straight due to that bomb, a wall fell on him, crushing his leg. A lady I don’t get along with, but who I have to talk to on the phone every day, was blinded by the bomb, but was put back together in a US military hospital in Germany. The vacuum caused by the bomb sucked all the glass out of her monitor and into her face. I remember that when I see the glasses she wears now. I can, and do, intimately share the pain of those who have lost friends and family in New York. I have lived with the results of Bin Laden’s handiwork for over two years now and want to see him dead.

So take a couple of steps back and have a look at what I am talking about. I am looking for a long term solution which hits at some of the root causes of terrorism. I have also put it in a way which, I hope, didn’t offend too many people, even if they disagreed with it. As such, I am taken aback that you have to refer to it as a “****ed up idea.” Don’t like it? That is ok. Just try and say it in a decent way, as we both have the right to hold our views.

Re: OT: War Bill, write your congress......
 

Just seen th front of this morning's Sun (One of the UK's more ignorant tabloid papers).

Pictures of troops with the headline "Bin loadin' for Bin Laden". Joy. This is the same "news"paper that came up with "Clobba Slobba" {ie Milosovich) a few years back.

Any war can be justified as long as we have a catchy pun for it. I don't think people realise just how hard to invade Afghanistan is. Just ask the Russians...

------------------
SE4 Code:
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/SE4 Code
Go to my meagre SEIV pages to generate your own code.

Re: OT: War Bill, write your congress......
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dogscoff:
I don't think people realise just how hard to invade Afghanistan is. Just ask the Russians...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

...or the British before them.

The only invaders that had any amount of success in Afghanistan were the Mongols, and they were pretty much just passing through on their way to pillage the rest of Asia and Europe.

Geo

Re: OT: War Bill, write your congress......
 

I do think Alexander the Great has succcess on his plow to India (that ended in pakistan).


Either way, we should remove all threats to this nation & others and apply the marshall plan. We screwed up big time during the cold war when we dropped the plan. Most of the dictators in power right now are because of the US. Often the US will help a country, but the faction we help would want to turn socialist for a while to rebuild thier cities, then we turn around and install a dictator that hates us.

We need to get the Marshall Plan back into effect. The US can foot the bill for building up countries plus think of the jobs and work it would create in the economy.


The only true weapon against War and Terror is Building and Education

------------------
HADRIAN T. AVENTINE
admin@spaceempires.org
Administrator | SpaceEmpires.org

Re: OT: War Bill, write your congress......
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Hadrian Aventine:
The only true weapon against War and Terror is Building and Education
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Total destruction of any nation that dares oppose us in anything would also work quite well. Afghanistan has already had 4 years of drought. Famine and disease are both time-honored weapons of mass destruction. Close all borders, destroy all access roads, no one and nothing goes in or out. Burn the crops, bomb the wells, shoot the cattle, then sit back and wait. A year from now, the territory can be divided among the surrounding countries and repopulated. No nukes necessary. Draconian? Yes, but we'd only have to do this once.

As you can see from my Last few Posts, I am, like many Americans, somewhat schizophrenic right now. The terrorists had better hope that they haven't pushed us over the edge.

Re: OT: War Bill, write your congress......
 

The problem with this screaming for vengeance is that the actions proposed will result in terrible suffering for millions of people who had nothing to do with the act being avenged. I make no excuses for terrorists. The people actually responsible for the destruction of the WTC should die. But the few hundred people actually responsible, or few thousand at most, are scattered all over the world in small, hidden Groups. Usama Bin Laden is only the visible tip of a very large underground network. Even if we get him there will still be an entire organization out there capable and quite willing to carry out more of the same actions. This is not a task that needs bombs and missiles, but intense investigation and law-enforcement work. If you find a nasty weed in your lawn, do you napalm the whole lawn? Or dig the d*mn weed out? The napalm will kill the grass, but the weed has deeper roots and will probably be the first thing that grows back.

Careful, intelligent use of military force to get compliance from states who are either in secret cooperation with the terrorists or just not strong enough to resist them alone will probably be necessary. But even then we don't have to destroy the civilian population. I hope the current chest-beating by the US is just part of a game of 'good cop/bad cop' but with our past history I guess we can't know. There has been a noticable return of reason in the mass media these Last few days. More and more programs I've listened to on the radio point out that if we just drop thousands of bombs on Afghanistan it will only recruit more terrorists. Others who still watch TV will have to report on what is happening there. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif I hope this rationality is also returning to the minds of our government and military officials.

Re: OT: War Bill, write your congress......
 

I think the US governments position is clear that they want to limit the use of force to that which is necessary to eliminate the terrorist organizations. Note the effort in the Last couple days to downplay a possible Iraqi connection to the terrorist plot. They are trying hard to keep this limited to the actual point at hand, and not allow it to become larger. Whether they will be successful or not remains to be seen.

I think it is obvious, despite the "Get Terrorism everywhere" rhetoric, that Bin Laden is the target. The tough stance towards the government of Afghanistan is expected considering they have protected Bin Laden for so long. We've been wanting to "talk" to the Taleban for years about him, and now when they see their guest has put them at risk, they are willing to talk.

I think the extent of damage to the Afghan military and civilians will be in whatever proportion that they allow themselves to be placed to closely too him.

Calling this a war is basically a way of telling the government of Afghanistan that we are not going to stop at their border and wait for them to turn him over. We will no doubt be putting men on the ground in their country and flying our planes over their airspace, actions that would be considered acts of war. Well, we are saying, this is a war, so we are released of those constraints.

But the objective of this war isn't to take their territory, so it won't be necessary to bomb far and wide, and occupy the country with hundreds of thousands of soldiers.

At least I hope that is what we are doing. Anything more could have serious repercussions. Even keeping to this limited tack is going to take a lot of skill. We don't have much room for error.

Geoschmo

Re: OT: War Bill, write your congress......
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>There has been a noticable return of reason in the mass media these Last few days.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>How is that even possible? I can't recall the mass media ever demonstrating any sense of reason about anything. It thrives on hype and hysteria.

------------------
Cap'n Q

The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the
human mind to correlate all of its contents. We live on a placid
island of ignorance in the midst of black seas of infinity, and it was
not meant that we should go far. -- HP Lovecraft, "The Call of Cthulhu"

Re: OT: War Bill, write your congress......
 

Had a long response all ready to go, then the server crashed, and I didn't have the foresight to copy it to the clipboard before attempting to post. Ah well, here's the abridged Version.

Saxon - Sorry for being belligerent. You didn't deserve that. However, I think the point itself was valid. By helping out the nations of the perpetrators of the attack, are you not rewarding them and giving them something they want? Besides, the comparison with Germany becoming our friends doesn't really work. The situations are completely different. Germany was a country with millions of people, comprising the entire political spectrum in views, who had just lost a war. Their country was bombed out, devastated. The terrorists, on the other hand, are a small group of fundamentalist psychopaths who just won the greatest victory of any terrorist organization in recorded history.

dmm - That's the kind of blood-soaked solution we should be trying to avoid. Why should civilians who just happened to be of the same religion and similar nationalities of the terrorists have to pay the ultimate price for the actions of extremists?

Re: OT: War Bill, write your congress......
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gritsucker:
dmm - That's the kind of blood-soaked solution we should be trying to avoid. Why should civilians who just happened to be of the same religion and similar nationalities of the terrorists have to pay the ultimate price for the actions of extremists?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Well, I won't try to defend it on moral grounds, since it is hideous. I told you it was a "schizo" response.
However, let me ask you: If a Western (US/Europe/Can/Aus/etc.) government were trying to shelter a "freedom fighter" after he had just killed 5000 civilians in another country, what would be the response from their population? I think we all know the answer.
If the Afghan people do not force their government to hand over bin Laden's entire organization, then they are NOT innocent bystanders. At that point, they will have joined the war against the US. Aiding and abetting a felon is itself a felony.
Telling the police that you will kill anyone coming into your house to search for a criminal, and that you will kill your neighbors if they try to help, makes you a criminal yourself and a legitimate target for police snipers -- especially if you have been harboring said criminal for years and know that he is in your basement right now.

Re: OT: War Bill, write your congress......
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dmm:

If the Afghan people do not force their government to hand over bin Laden's entire organization, then they are NOT innocent bystanders. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What do you know about the afghan people ? I think we (as western civilization) cannot imagine how it is to be born into a totalitarian regime of religious fanatics. If you open just your mouth to say something in offense, you have to reckon with stoning. The only way to survive the firestorm of the whole world's rage seems to be the flight, but this is impossible because the borders are closed now.

I live about 50 miles away from Hamburg, where 3 of the "sleepers" have come from. Estimations are that about 100 more of the sleepers are still in Germany. Why do not napalm Germany to get rid of the 100 living bombs ? By the way you could balance some old accounts with us.

I pray for the innocent victims, I pray for peace, I pray for the thousands of innocent lives that will certainly be lost in the war that is near at hand, after that we will be two steps back (and I am sure not one step forward).

Re: OT: War Bill, write your congress......
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by capnq:

Quote:

There has been a noticable return of reason in the mass media these Last few days.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>How is that even possible? I can't recall the mass media ever demonstrating any sense of reason about anything. It thrives on hype and hysteria.

Heh... everything is relative, Capnq. The media has resumed a level of dicsourse more rational than it had during the first week or so after the attack. But then, as I said, I don't watch TV anymore. For me it's NPR and websites. Once in a while I'll watch a cable channel like SciFi or Discovery/TLC but that's it.

Re: OT: War Bill, write your congress......
 

here is what the pakistan leader said translated to engish:


President General Pervez Musharraf addressed the nation at 20:30 PST (11:30
EST).

Asalam-o- Alaikum

I am here to talk about the episode of terrorism that we have all
witnessed in New York which involved 45 countries and people of all ages
were killed. These were capable Pakistanis
and I would like to convey my deep sympathy to their family
members.

America has 3 targets

Osama Bin Laden (Al-Quaida Movement)

Taliban

International terrorism


Now I shall share with you the kind of support that they expect
from us.

1.Intelligence - Information exchange

2.Use of Air Space

3.logistic Support


No operations plans are ready or available at the moment.

Their target from the beginning has been Osama bin Laden, and his
movement. Their second target is the Talibaan. This has been their demand
for many years - to bring Osama to trial.
Now they have also announced a war against terrorism.

We do not have any details from the U.S of the exact nature of the
support from us. But we do know that they have the support of the UN
Security Council. The UN resolution specifies
punishment for those committing terrorism. This has been supported
by all the Islamic countries.

We in Pakistan are facing a very critical situation. Perhaps as
critical as the events in 1971. If we make the wrong decisions our vital
interests will be harmed.

I have discussed all this with my corps commanders, politicians and
prominent Pakistanis. Tomorrow I am meeting the tribal chiefs. I have to say
that opinions are divided, but the vast
majority supports us. I would say that about 15% are tending
towards emotional reactions.

Lets look at our neighbors. They have promised US all cooperation.
They want to isolate us, get us declared a terrorist state.

They have met in Dushanbe with some other countries and plan to try
and install anti Pakistani government in Afghanistan. So our neighbor is
busy trying to harm us. If you see their
television they are busy with propaganda against us.

I want to tell them to 'lay off'. Our forces are on full alert and
ready for a do or die mission.

In this situation if we make the wrong decisions it can be very bad
for us. Our critical concerns are our sovereignty, second our economy, third
our strategic assets (nuclear and missiles),
and forth our Kashmir cause. All four will be harmed if we make the
wrong decision. When we make these decisions they must be according to
Islam.

Its not a question of bravery or cowardice. But bravery without
thinking is stupidity. Allah has said that he who has 'hikmat' has a huge
blessing. We have to save our interests. Pakistan
comes first, everything else is secondary.

Some 'ulema' are trying to react on pure emotions. I want to remind
them of Islam's early history. The moved from Mecca to Medina (hijrat). Was
this (God forbid) cowardice? This
was wisdom to save Islam.

Then when the Jews saw that Islam was getting stronger they started
to conspire against the muslims. When the Prophet (PBUH) saw this happening
he signed a no war pact with his
enemies in Mecca. I want to remind you of that pact. At the end of
the pact, where his signature was required, the Meccans demanded that he
cannot sign it as "Prophet Mohammed".
The Prophet (PBUH) agreed.

The Prophet explained later that its best for Islam, and it's the
right thing to do. And time proved him right. Six months later there was a
war with the Jews and the Meccans did not
support the Jews and the Muslim forces won. And some time after
that Mecca also fell to Islamic mujahideen.

Let me say that I am concerned about Afghanistan and the Talibaan.
I have tried to convince world leaders not to impose sanctions on them in
the past. I have tried my best, but sadly
without much success.

In the present situation we have been trying to convince the
Talibaan to be wise. We have also asked the US for evidence about Osama bin
Laden. Also how do we best serve
Afghanistan's interests? By going against the world community or by
working with the international community. I am sure you will agree with me
that we can only do the later.

I also know that there are people who are using this to promote
their personal agendas. At this time, we have to be make sure that our
enemies do not succeed in their designs to harm
us. Pakistan is regarded as a fort of Islam. If this fort is
damaged, islam will be damaged.

I ask you to trust me, like you trusted me when I went to Agra.

May Allah guide and protect us.

Pakistan Zindabad

Re: OT: War Bill, write your congress......
 

Notice how the Pakistani leader doesn't say things like:
1) The bombing was wicked, a sin against Allah, and would still have been so even if only adult Americans had been killed.
2) We need to do all that we can to bring bin Laden to justice because it is the morally correct thing for us to do, as an Islamic country. No bribe from the US is necessary or wanted.
3) If the Taliban are trying to protect bin Laden, then we should have never befriended them. If they are unable to do the right thing because bin Laden is too powerful, then we should use Muslim troops to liberate them.

My question is:
When will we start hearing things like the above spoken loudly and forcefully from prominent Muslim leaders outside of the West?

Re: OT: War Bill, write your congress......
 

QUOTE:
If the Afghan people do not force their government to hand over bin Laden's entire organization, then they are NOT innocent bystanders.
/QUOTE

Just ignorant ones. TV is Banned in Afghanistan. Radios are rare. I don't know about newspapers (or what the levels of literacy are) but I shouldn't think they're too liberal. Add to that the fact that most afghanistanis are too busy starving to death to worry about America or NATO or Bin Laden or getting bombed...

They've had about 30 years of war and 3 years of drought, can you blame them for being disinterested in international politics?

I don't know if it's true, but I heard that something like a quarter of aghanistanis are expected to die of starvation by Christmas.

Don't want to flame anyone with this post, but I really do feel the Afghanistani population are getting a rough deal here. We've had enough misery.

------------------
SE4 Code:
L GdY $ Fr- C- Sd T!+ Sf-- Tcp-- A% M&gt;M+ MpD! RV Pw Fq+ Nd- Rp+ G-
/SE4 Code
Go to my meagre SEIV pages to generate your own code.

Re: OT: War Bill, write your congress......
 

Agreed, as in most countries like this, there is a difference between the population in general and the nutzo ruling party.

Re: OT: War Bill, write your congress......
 

Which is why I think we should assassinate their leaders and topple their governments, but not wage a ground war or engage in large scale bombing.

Re: OT: War Bill, write your congress......
 

What you've asked for basiclly requires a ground war. In war, of any sort, civilains get hurt. The only difference is in how many.. and this type of war is very, very messy.

Phoenix-D

Re: OT: War Bill, write your congress......
 

Sorry for quoting myself, but you'll see why.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dmm:
Notice how the Pakistani leader doesn't say things like:
EDITED OUT TO SAVE SPACE. SEE MY ORIGINAL MESSAGE BELOW.

My question is:
When will we start hearing things like the above spoken loudly and forcefully from prominent Muslim leaders outside of the West?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Three cheers for the Saudis!!! They, at least, have finally had the guts to do the right thing, in public. See this NYTimes article: http://www.nytimes.com/2001/09/25/in...5CND-STAN.html

I was very encouraged by this, and I hope that many other Muslim countries (and clerics in those countries) will follow suit. In a situation like this, I would love to have to eat crow.

Re: OT: War Bill, write your congress......
 

That NYT site requires a login now.
Too much trouble to create a spam account for that kind of thing. Would you mind quoting the relevant text?

Re: OT: War Bill, write your congress......
 

Here's the beginning of the article to which I was referring:

From the NYTimes, 25 September 2001

Saudi Arabia Cuts Ties With Taliban
By JOHN F. BURNS with CHRISTOPHER S. WREN

ISLAMABAD, Pakistan, Sept. 25 — Saudi Arabia announced today that it had broken relations with Afghanistan because of the ruling Taliban's insistence on supporting "criminals and terrorists."

An official statement issued through the Saudi Press Agency said the kingdom of Saudi Arabia was severing diplomatic ties because "the Taliban have ignored all of the contacts and the attempts by the kingdom to persuade them to stop harboring criminals and terrorists and training them and inciting them and making its land a refuge and haven for them."

The Afghan people's fight for independence — an allusion to their violent resistance to Soviet occupation — had earned their country "a special status" in the hearts of those who championed the right of nations to be free and independent, the Saudi announcement said.

It charged that "the Taliban have used that special status for Afghanistan not for building the ties of brotherhood and for building and development and enforcing the lofty aims which Islam represents, but have made its land a center for attracting, training and recruiting a number of gullible men from different lands, especially citizens of the kingdom, in order to carry out criminal acts that violate all faiths and creeds."

The Taliban, it added, was "continuing to reject handing over those criminals to justice." Such behavior by the Taliban, it said, was "defaming Islam and defaming Muslims' reputation in the world."

The statement did not specifically mention Osama bin Laden, the Saudi-born terrorist leader wanted in the Sept. 11 attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon. Mr. bin Laden has lived in Afghanistan since 1996 under the protection of the Taliban, which refused to hand him over and now claims not to know where he is.

"In spite of what happened and what is happening," the Saudi statement said, "the Taliban government is still continuing to use its land to harbor, arm and encourage those criminals in carrying out terrorist attacks that horrify those who live in peace and the innocent and spread terror and destruction in the world." An English translation of the announcement was carried by the Associated Press.

.... the article continues with other stuff ....

Re: OT: War Bill, write your congress......
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by suicide_junkie:
That NYT site requires a login now.
Too much trouble to create a spam account for that kind of thing. Would you mind quoting the relevant text?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, you can get around the login. They are just trying to track their readership with the login. You can access the information directly if you want to. Change "www.nytimes.com" to "ARCHIVE.nytimes.com" and you get direct access without the hassle. The archive seems to be updated as quickly as the main site.

[This message has been edited by Baron Munchausen (edited 26 September 2001).]