Repair vehicle and units
 

Hi all

First of all, thx for bringing this great game further and keeping it alive.

I have been playing this game since I came over a demo on a CD of SP1, back in the good old DOS days. And I have them all, SP1, 2 and 3. And all the other different versions that has been, and is out there.

But WinSPMBT and WinSPWW2 are the best, I have bought them both.

So here is my question, I tried a search in the forum but nothing came up.

Is there possible, or is there any reason why there isn’t any repair vehicles/units in the game? Who can function like the supply vehicles does?

It would be extremely nice to have a vehicle to drive up to a MBT or APC/IFV that have run over a mine, or stuck in mud or something, parking it there and after a couple of turns its good to go again.

This is realistic in a combat scenario, since this kind of Combat Service Support (CSS) is as important as other kind of logistics like ammunition and transportation in war.

Re: Repair vehicle and units
 

From practical experience, you just aren't going to repair a track that quickly. It could take us up to an hour to repair just a thrown track and that was with an M88 close by. In combat, repair vehicles probably won't be that close, so you are looking at a longer amount of time before you even get started, IF you can get them to show up while shooting is going on around you. Towing the tank out of mud or what have you wouldn't take as long, but it's still more than a 10 minute job.

It's a whole new level of complexity if you toss in battle damage. If it is just confined to the tracks, you probably would need cutting torches to remove mangled sections. I doubt even the mega-wrenches we had would have worked. More than likely, there would be damage to road wheels, return rollers, suspension and who knows what else. It's unlikely that kind of damage could be repaired during the longest possible game that can be played. I believe that's 99 turns, but have never been in a marathon mood. Even then, it's a matter of the replacement parts being that readily available.

In the 1st Gulf War, we had some M1s get bogged down and they were abandoned and "destroyed" rather than try to get them out during a battle.

Re: Repair vehicle and units
 

Below is an example of just stuck :)

This was some sort of training incident because you can see the yellow light and instructor's seat on the back of the turret. That had to be rough on the driver!!

Even if you got this tank out quickly, it's questionable if it would even run without a bit of maintenance :rolleyes:

Re: Repair vehicle and units
 

The time table of Battle Damage repair & Recovery (BDAR) is well known. This has been one of my jobs in the Norwegian armed forces since 1994. Also maintenance and salvage in armored battalions, on many different levels and functions.

I agree totally with you, but it would be a neat unit to have, it will strengthen the complexity of operations, since you maybe have to dedicate some of your troops to defend these support units.

Anyway, just a thougt.
I still play the game realistic with mines and breakdowns, which makes planning a little bit harder, and more fun.

Re: Repair vehicle and units
 

I would think a lot of Combat Service Support type elements wouldn't be on map in terms of the game scale and the conflicts its generally supposed to represent. These units would be in rear areas and not committed to engagements. Of course it is a game, so "ammo carriers" are included, which would also likely be in those areas. However, the ammo carrier serves a function, whereas supply units would not. Such "units" are included in scenarios with specific caveats to determine the final "score" based on how many survive, whether you take them out, etc.

Recovery of vehicles is possible. There is a tank transporter generic unit in each OOB to provide this for scenarios again where specific caveats and "rules" could be stated as to the employment and objective. Recovery vehicles and thusly be implemented simply by reworking the arbitrary weight of the vehicle in question and creating a tank transporter like unit with a 2XX load capacity. These units will never be realistic, as already noted, because the load time is instantaneous.

Re: Repair vehicle and units
 

That's odd because I remember it being discussed fairly frequently here and even in the old yahoo group. The bottom line is that such repairs are outside the timeframe and focus of the game, which is pitched battles between battalion sized formations. Hence no fuel parameter (it is assumed that it won't be an issue for the lenght of the engagement) and no repairs (not possible in the time/circumstances of such a battle).

Re: Repair vehicle and units
 

I think it's too easy to under estimate how long it takes to fix things, even an immobilization. About the easiest it would get would be unsticking a high centered armored vehicle or changing the flat tire on a small untility vehicle. Beyond that, the tasks get difficult and timely.

Re: Repair vehicle and units
 

Having recently participated in this activity in a non-combat situation on my girlfriend's car, I can tell you that this is also not an instantaneous procedure, and is also out of the scope of the combined turn time period.

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I bet you would have been faster if someone was shooting at you :fire:

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I bet it would feel like I was going even slower ;)

Re: Repair vehicle and units
 

Recovery and repair to be sure is outside the scope of our grand game.

I know and have seen in peacetime Exercises vehicles recovered in what would be normally under fire in a real battle but only because they are so expensive.

In combat under fire or the threat of fire even a flat tire, can be an immobilization kill until the threat is removed. I've driven a vehicle with a flat out of an area under fire, but I'd damned if I was going to risk lives to fix it with incoming rounds all over our LOC. (I'm sure that Recce 4x4 would have had 1 point of damage since we could get it moving, not to mention some suppression applied to the crew, my partner and I
!:D) IMHO

Bob out:D

Re: Repair vehicle and units
 

fact is vehicles wre and will be towed away under fire. another fact is that rear echelon units like the comapany and baetallion support and logistics arnt in the game(exept for ammo). might as well ask for medics to take care of your walking wounded and a USO show to boost up morale:)

Re: Repair vehicle and units
 

Just to make sure everyone's clear, I don't think any of us has disputed this. The issue is one of the instant load/unload rather than it happening at all. It should take more than one turn to do it, and with the way the load code works, this isn't possible.

Re: Repair vehicle and units
 

Also, the initial comments in the thread were about game time repairs of immobilization, either due to combat or non-combat causes.

Towing away a disabled tank probably would depend on the current situation. It doesn't seem to be something they would likely attempt if there is a great risk of losing the ARV. Losing the ARV wouldn't help anything. I'm not saying it's not done, but that it would be something that would be evaluated on a case by case basis.

Re: Repair vehicle and units
 

Re immobilisation, I recall an incident from 6th Para Div landing in Normandy, the Tetrarch got stuck in a tangle of parachute webbings, the crew tried fruitlessly to cut the ropes etc., but in the end they had to risk a bit - they borrowed a flamethrower and set the ropes on fire en masse.
)
EDIT: Re. changing the tire under fire, it was enough for me to change it in a side lane on a mtorway, with trucks passing right behind my back...

Re: Repair vehicle and units
 

That's interesting and a quite creative solution.

I've done that before and agree.

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It takes between 10 to "you name it" minutes actually. :)

You dont need an ARV to tow a tank. You can do it with any other tank or tracked vehicle that is strong enough.

Re: Repair vehicle and units
 

Also quite dangerous - I take it the crew were pretty desperate about the stuff. i cannot imagine non-desperate tanker aiming a flamethrower at his wagon, esp. if it is full of ammo and fuel...

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Not to mention a Tetrarch with all the protection of an ice cream cone.

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True. I was getting a bit of tunnel vision. Another tank could tow one as long as the tank being towed isn't mired where it can't easily be reached. There are lots of examples where tanks were just left stuck where they were, but there are also lots of examples of tanks being towed out. In the end, it boils down to the desire to do so.

Re: Repair vehicle and units
 

The longest salvage operation I have been a part of took almost 48h.
It was a Leopard 1 MBT back in 1999.

We used two Leopard1 ARV to winch with and 4 Leopard 1 MBT as anchorage, with a couple of big trees as well to anchor the 4 MBTs.

If I don’t remember wrong, we winched with 170t (total, with all safeties off), then we got it out of the march. It was so deep, that we only saw the tip of the cannon, and the cannon was elevated to the maximum, so we had to send down engineer divers to hook up the wires.

I saw it went down, all the crew made it, the driver and loader was send to hospital with march water in their lungs, they had to wait to the compartment was filled with water, before they could evacuate through the commanders hatch. It took about two long minutes before we saw them in the water. An ice block blocked the loaders hatch.

Good it was peacetime exercise.

Anyway, this was an interesting topic with many good answers and stories.
Thx...

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How did they end up in the water in the first place? Did you see it happen or just part of the recovery operation?

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saw one that took about that long. Merkava Mk 2 stuck in mud, another came in to tow it, got stuck. A D9 Dozer came to help and got stuc kas well. Seriously bad mud that was. They brought another D9 that pulled out the first D9, than both towed each tank out.

Re: Repair vehicle and units
 

Inj my father's unit (Signal Corps) once a ZIL (carrying generator) got stuck, not even in the mud, but in spot of soft ground. The rest of the column were Praga V3S medium trucks, no chance to pull the ZIL out. They borrowed from local agricultural combine a heavy tractor (for work in forests, that big beast with a joint in the middle and four big wheels), tried to pull the ZIL out, instead the tractor broke at the joint. They had to wait for recovery Tatra 815 (8x8)...

Re: Repair vehicle and units
 

I saw it happen, as the fourth vehicle in a column with our ARV, we drove over a little top, and saw it went down, and heard the screaming over the radio.

It was the number 3 tank in a platoon.
The number 3 and 4 tanks are manned with the most inexperienced commanders. He didn’t read the terrain proper, or the map.
That’s why.

We lost a crewmember on a similar accident two years ago, on one of our Leopard 2 MBT.

Re: Repair vehicle and units
 

One thing a lot of people don't realise is how dangerous tanks can be even, in training exercises.

We had one crewman leaning over the coax ammo box which is attached to the side of the main gun next to the breach when someone in the gunners position max depressed the gun. Tube goes down, breach and ammo box go up, resulting in a soldier with a fractured back. He was slammed into the top of the turret. One crewman just fell off the tank. He was behind me. I turn to look away and when I looked back, he was on the ground. He ended up with a dislocated elbow. At least in these cases, both survived. I've heard other stories where crewman didn't survive, but haven't personally seen anything like that.

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Every large training Exercise I was ever involved with always seemed to have deaths involved. In the 70's as a kid NATO Forces were always loosing people in everything from fighters slamming into hills to troops being run over in the middle of the night. You get enough "hardware" crashing around the country side something is going to give.

Bob out

Re: Repair vehicle and units
 

Hi:
I am in favor of some new feature dealing with immobilized vehicles.

Perhaps some ground rules are needed.

a) Aid vehicle has to be in same hex as damaged vehicle.
b) Weapon fire damage is not repairable in the field. Likewise, building collapse should be treated as weapon fire damage. So vehicles damage because of these events can not be repaired, but can be moved.
c) Any vehicle can be moved.
d) Moving damaged vehicles require movement points
e) Amount of movement points is a function of vehicle weight, damage and terrain. Movement cost can exceed the cost of any one aid vehicle, thus requiring more than one aid vehicle to move one hex.
f) Aid vehicle is subject to same conditions that incapacitated the damaged vehicle. For example, if damaged vehicle is in mud, aid vehicle can get stuck in mud too!
g) Aid vehicle(s) combined weigh must be x% larger than damage vehicle. Where x is greater than 100 and represents the anchoring required.
h) Time to move starts at 2 turns plus random roll during an aid vehicle unsuppressed(0) subsequent turn.
i) Subsequent movement of damage vehicle requires all same vehicles remain together (formation move 1 hex). If any aid vehicle departs, the process starts over again.
j) Movement can only continue as long as all aid vehicles involved remained unsuppressed. Movement is per (e) above.
k) If damage to vehicle was due to terrain, then once damaged vehicle has been removed from inflicting terrain, the damage is removed and the vehicle returns to operation.

There is a bit of programming involved in this as I sure the designers see right off.

Some simplication is possible by just designating any vehicle larger than the damage one as capable of being a towing vehicle and only one towing vehicle is needed for any terrain. And maybe just allow one hex move on the successful die roll.

Sorry to be so long
Thanks

Re: Repair vehicle and units
 

There is still the problem with the nature of the immobilization to consider. If you look at the picture I embedded on the first page, that would be considered a terrain immobilization, but that certainly wouldn't be returned to operational condition during the a game battle, even after you got it out of the ditch. Another post mentioned the 48 hour recovery of a Leo 1. Again, a terrain immobilization if I understand it correctly. In game terms, when it's a terrain immobilization, the unit is just immobilized, somehow. Flat tire, broken track, high centered, mired in mud, rolled, etc. How is it is immobilized is up to our imagination. Unless that is defined, it's not really possible to say it could be returned to action once removed from the hex the immobilization occurred in.

In game terms, some other aspects are already possible. There are some tank transports available and immobilized units can be moved. The transports do have to be in the same hex as the tank to be transported to load them. Loading tanks, especially immobilized ones, is quicker than it should be, but I wouldn't change the code for that rare instance. Tank transports aren't going to come up unless the area is secured, unless you want to risk getting it destroyed, so you usually have all the time in the world to load it. Who cares if it takes only one game turn?

Building immobilizations are a another one of those that don't provide enough specifics on how they got stuck. Did they break a track or are they in some poor soul's basement? If in the basement, they shouldn't even be able to fire, unless it's at rats.

Just based on how things work, we can draw conclusions from about the immobilizations. Since they can still fire, they aren't in someone's basement, rolled or submerged up to the commander's hatch with a barrel full of water and mud. It still leaves some possibilities that aren't quick fixes such as mired or broken track/flat tire. The quickest fix I can think of is for a high centered tank. A quick pull or push might solve that problem. With terrain immobilizations, if you are careful, they can be avoided. This is one thing that, IMO, really wouldn't add much to the game if it was changed. If we start doing this, then maybe we start wanting to look at excessive speed breakdowns, burned out transmissions and simple blown engines. All realistic, but do we want to fight a battle or open a tank repair depot?

Re: Repair vehicle and units
 

Mosborne pretty sure this has been covered several times (try a search) & like helo suggestions I think you are stepping outside whats possible.
This is an old programe & units cannot realy interact with each other.
We have ammo supply & loading other units & thats about it as far as I know a vehicle cannot give some of its MP to another unit & move it.

As a workaround you cannot repair stuff but you could simulate a repair vehicle that could move an immobile vehicle by giving it the carry capacity to lift it.
This will not work for destroyed vehicles as I do not think you can interact with wrecks.

Barring weapon jams about the only thing that could probably be fixed in the scope of the game is immobilisation due to getting stuck in mud or water obstacle. Others like mines rough would probably have caused a thrown track or some such. Even then I would think pulling 50 tons of metal out might take a while by the time you take into account things like careful approach of rescuer so he does not need help to.
Just read the rest of this thread maybe you should

Re: Repair vehicle and units
 

The quickest mobility damage repair that I know of is replacing a tyre on a vehicle. You tow it out of range. You DON'T try to change it under fire. The next quickest is replacing the wheel and tyre on a MPV. You have to jack the bugger up, then remove the remnants of the wheel, check the damage to the axle, and replace it if it's too badly damaged. The whole thing takes at least an hour. More if you're under fire.

troopie.

Re: Repair vehicle and units
 

I have been thinking about this a lot and I would really like to see more ACRV's added. I know that "recovery and repair" is not modeled in the game nor does it need to be to have these units included.

For example, why not have these recovery vehicles included and have them limited to the same role at the "Tank Transporter". I know they have the capability already to pick up and carry away BUT from a graphic standpoint they look . . . funky and out of place. :D

The idea being they can be there to "drag" immobilized vehicles out of the fray. In scenarios this is no big deal BUT in campaigns they could become very useful in saving a vehicle from being completely lost. They would be especially useful in my Silver Lions II User campaign. ;)

Thoughts?

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Well, no problem modelling them then, right? Just use some Engineering tank icon for them (turretless)...
OOTH what would really be good would be if the bailed out crews had to wait some before remounting - for these cases when they are too suppressed to move but not enough to run away and they remount their damaged vehicle by the turn's end just to be blown to pieces by the enemy ;)

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I like thsse two, a lot.

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Use the tank transporter and change the Icon to the Pionierpanzer 1 and you have a close enough M88.

We are not getting involved in recovery in the game beyond what's there now

Don

Re: Repair vehicle and units
 

Another thing that works is just bailing the crew and taking them to safety via APC, chopper or whatever you have. The tank can be replaced between battles, if it ends up destroyed, but it takes much more time to replace an experienced crew.

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You know I never thought of using the tank transporter to save an immobilised tank lol. Thanks for the idea.

In at least single player campaigns I try to save the crews by having either M113s on standby or a heli or two.

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Bah, that would be too easy. :D

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I try to keep my designing of User Campaigns as faithful to the historical TO&E as possible so had to come up with a way to simulate it. I forgot about the Pionierpanzer icon in the other OOB till Don reminded me.

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You could use the Badger in the Canadian OOB as well. Use whatever's closer to the M88. All that can be manipulated using scenhack

Don

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That is so true!The tank itself is replaceable.
Pop some smoke (if available) and bail,odds are they might get killed but better than waiting for a highly visible tank transport.
If i can i always rescue an experienced crew.
It changes the strategy but better than training a new crew.

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I have several heavy transport helos in my core. They can lift many vehicles, even MBT's. Rather than bail out the crew, once the AA threat is gone, I use them to take immobilized vehicles into the back and use them as pillboxes to defend the rear area.

Re: Repair vehicle and units
 

You are simply exploiting a game artefact of the primitive loading system for vehicles. Those helos are really only supposed to be able to load jeeps etc. but have a "larger" load capacity to allow a decent amount of men to be carried (244 or so => about 40 men).

if we limited these helos to 215 or so (enough for a jeep or similar), then we would have gotten zillions of "My chinook can onlycarry fifteen guys wah your game is broken" even if we had annotated the fact that this was a special lift-vehicles only version in the unit description, since end users don't tend to read these. So 244 allows 44 men, as a compromise. It does allow you to load a class 44 vehicle load too - but you are a human, the AI will not load helos with vehicles - and you are expected to be sensible with the usage of this compromise solution.

Only load the correct sort of vehicles into a large helo - a jeep, maybe 2, one Russian BMD para APC etc.

Therefore if your opponent uses say Chinooks to offload a horde of Sheridans in your rear - tell him he is a twit (or anything else you may choose!), and restart the game :)!.

Andy

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@Hermit,

Andy's right....LMAO! Don't be a moron. Use the compromise solution realistically. You can get away with that exploit against the cpu BUT a human will probably come back to Shrap Forums and BLAST you in a post. I know from experience. I was done like that once as a newbie.

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I was not aware of the "compromise." I did a little checking after reading your posts. It appears a Chinook can carry 13.5 tons on it's main hook, and included in the text is its ability to carry large (155mm) artillery pieces -

http://www.army-technology.com/projects/chinook/

I also saw this picture of an old army helo carrying what appears to be a decent sized piese of SPA.

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/...r-lifting-tank

But, as I have now been informed, I didn't see any tanks being lifted (although I know the Sheridan was designed specifically for this purpose)

Thanks for setting me straight!

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Thought designed to be supposedly air dropable not helo transportable weight something like 17 tons

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Never actually used them in any game, but I can't think of anything else they'd be good for.

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They were intended to be air dropable.
I know they've done tests dumping them out of aircraft but to the best of my knowledge it's never been done outside of the tests.
I do believe there are a FEW civilian heavy lift helos (used for construction) that could pick one up, but nothing in the military inventory can.

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But what are the odds that some 2-wheel drive tractor trailer isn't going to get stuck in the same mud/marsh/stream that got your AFV or 4x4 stuck?

For laughs I once transported 8 tank transporters and one tank in side a single tank transporter. Another time I keep loading snipers until it couldn't carry any more, the odd thing was that the limit was reached before carry capacity was reached, perhaps some hard coded thing.

On a serious note, I have used them for holding about half a company of infantry and advancing along a road. It can be convenient to have all that firepower concentrated as long as you don't get attacked while in transit or before they can deploy and spread out.

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You're right, air droppable, not helo liftable. But FYI, the CH-53E Super Stallion can lift 17.8 tons:

http://www.history.navy.mil/planes/ch53.htm