Drones!!
 

i want drones, and i think they can be modded in to the game using VehicleSize.txt, TechArea.txt and maybe Component.txt.

By editing Vehiclesize.txt you could make a ship hull with special abilities and call it Small/Medium/Large drone.

In TechArea.txt you can add a Drone tech and maybe some other stuff for Drones, but they will also be usable by ships, since a drone is a ship.

But first we need to know what drones do, how do you see them and what should there limitations be.

Some things that look obvious to me:
1. Drones are cheaper than normal ship, not always, but generally speaking they should be cheaper i think, and can be built in one or two turns.
2. Drones are unmanned, problem here because ship-hulls need a bridge/life support/crew quarters or a master computer to have max. movement, this problem can be solved by adding those abilities to the hull in VehicleSize.txt.
3. Drones are smaller than ships, Large Drone could 200kt max, Small Drone maybe 50kt
4. Drones are expendable, the hull should have a Self-Destruct ability, like Mines.
5. Drones can warp, that why i chose them to be ship and not fighters.

i already modded these thing in a limited way, and they work.

What are your ideas on Drones, and what would you use them for, given the 5 "rules" i just gave.

Re: Drones!!
 

I think of them as either cruise missiles or as UAVs. So I don't think they should carry any weapons except:
warheads (kamikaze strategy)
planet-attacking weapons
sensors

I also think they should be "fire and forget" which means that they could only take orders once. No way to implement that, probably.

Re: Drones!!
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dmm:
I think of them as either cruise missiles or as UAVs. So I don't think they should carry any weapons except:
warheads (kamikaze strategy)
planet-attacking weapons
sensors

I also think they should be "fire and forget" which means that they could only take orders once. No way to implement that, probably.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

i think that's what Malfador intended them to be, but i don't think what you're suggesting is possible now.

Re: Drones!!
 

Forgot to post this, here are the fields that SE4 wants from you if you create a Vehicle Size with Vehicle Type := Drone

Launched from Ship := True/False
Launched from Planet := True/False
Random Explorer := True/False
Seeks towards Target := True/False
Seeks towards Sector := True/False
Hits Target := True/False
Launch/Loads Troops := True/False
Launch/Loads Mines := True/False
Launch/Loads Sats := True/False
Refuels Target := True/False
Requires Launcher := True/False

now we all know what we're missing, and what they were originally meant for.

Re: Drones!!
 

Actually, ships need bridge, life support, and crew quarters because they have been given that requirement in the VehicleSize.txt file.

Requirement Must Have Bridge := True
Requirement Can Have Aux Con := True
Requirement Min Life Support := 1
Requirement Min Crew Quarters := 1
Requirement Uses Engines := True

Just change the Life Support/Crew Quarters requirement on your 'drones' to '0' and see if that doesn't remove the problem. Then you can just make a "drone computer core" like the one for satellites to handle the bridge requirements.

Other than that, the 'fire and forget' quality of drones is hard to recreate this way. They are meant to be given a mission and then be completely autonomous. So, you should NOT be able to change their orders after giving them a mission.

I like the missions described in the old vehiclesize file for drones. They could carry cargo, like mines, sats, WPs, or troops, and drop the cargo at a remote location then 'disappear' ('self-destruct' I guess). So, you could lay minefields or sat Groups without needing ships, and you could build up planet defenses, or possibly invade planets, without ships. You could also fill a drone with supplies and 'fire' it at one of your own ships. When the drone arrived it would transfer its supplies to the ship and then 'vanish' as usual. Remote resupply without risking unarmed 'tanker' ships in dangerous areas! Coolness! The only other uses I can think of for drones are as "cruise missile" type weapons as has been discussed. Put a plain old warhead on them, or maybe a special weapon like a plague bomb or a smart bomb, and fire at planets deep within enemy territory. If they don't get through, it's not the same loss as a ship with crew. If they do, it's a very cheap and effective way to damage the enemy.

Oops, just thought of another use. A "wild weasel" drone that has some sort of electronic device in it which makes it look like a SHIP to your enemy. Now that would be cool. You could make a flight of drones look like a fleet of battleships and it would take a direct engagement to tell the difference. You could play all sorts of defensive or offensive shell games with that.

[This message has been edited by Baron Munchausen (edited 18 September 2001).]

Re: Drones!!
 

I have tried to set Requirement Min Life Support and Requirement Min Crew Quarters to zero. But, this resulted in a max movement of two. The only way that I could get around it was to give my "drone" the Ship Life Support and Ship Crew Quarters Abilities. I also gave my drone the Ship Bridge, Extra Movement Generation and Combat Movement Abilities to solve my problem with drone movement. On my drones you can only choose one component, the warhead. This also solved a problem with placing unwanted components on drones.

------------------
Never Give up, Never Surrender!

Re: Drones!!
 

Sure would be interesting to see these in. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Drones!!
 

Kadste, instead of setting the requirement to 0, try changing the "Requires Life Support" to false.

Phoenix-D

Re: Drones!!
 

Yes, Ships must have "Ship Life Support", "Ship Crew Quarters" and "Ship Bridge" Abilities to get max movement.

Weapon Abilities do not seem to work though. I tried to give my drone a "Mine Sweeping" Ability, but it never swept mines. When I added it as a component it will sweep mines.

Because my drones are ships, they can have components. Give them a size of 30 and one mine sweeping component.

Added Abilities for movement to model the way I wanted my drones to move.

Cannot get the drone to launch or get stored as cargo, though. You have to manage them as ships in a fleet.



------------------
Never Give up, Never Surrender!

Re: Drones!!
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kadste :
On my drones you can only choose one component, the warhead. This also solved a problem with placing unwanted components on drones.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Because my drones are ships, they can have components. Give them a size of 30 and one mine sweeping component.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/ima...s/confused.gif now i lost it, are you saying your drones can only have warheads, or can they have any shipcomponent

[This message has been edited by LemmyM (edited 19 September 2001).]

Re: Drones!!
 

If you use them as ships, then what is the range/supply? LemmyM you stated they were expendable and would self destruct. Do you mean that once they deliver whatever, they automaticly would be coded to destroy themselves? My opinion only, you may want to look at 2 or more different types of drones, those that deliver supply, trps, etc, those that are used for spying and those used as missles, Each one might have to be different in size and capabilities. This might be done, by saying those used as missles could only be of small or medium and those for transport up to large. But if you use as ship types, this might take away the Drone concept. Drones in space warfare are usually small, very fast, missle type units. I guess it would depend on what you want them to do/accomplish. I like the idea of cruise missles, this could be used to assault defended worm holes.

just some ideas mac

Re: Drones!!
 

LemmyM,

Sorry for the confusion. The size of my drones are set up so I can only choose one component. Like a drone for minesweeping purposes. In VehicleSize.txt my drone has a tonnage of 30. This will allow me only to have one mine sweeping component.

A drone set up as a missile, like the Strategic Bombardment Missile from Starfire, has a tonnage that only allows one warhead component, the Cobalt Warhead I. This drone has a tonnage of 50.




------------------
Never Give up, Never Surrender!

Re: Drones!!
 

i only said they have Self-Destruct ability, not that they would automatically self-destruct, that's just not possible now.
With expendable i just meant that they are small and easy to built, so you won't have to worry about losing some.

And i see drones more as early exploriation vessels, like the Galileo space-craft, something that you use before ships with crew.

Later they could also be used for suicide ships. But i don't think many people use kamikaze warheads on their ships, so i'm not sure it will be used now, given a choice.

The reason i use ship types is because i want them to warp. You could however have small drones as fighter types and large drones as ship type. That way the small ones can be transported and launched. It still wouldn't feel like Drones though, cos they will be treated like fighters. You could even make small drones as missile weapons, medium drones as fighters and large drones as ships.

How would cruise missile drones work, do they do damage to all ships in that sector or a specific one?

Kadste : thanks for clearing that up http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif


[This message has been edited by LemmyM (edited 19 September 2001).]

Re: Drones!!
 

As for crusie missle aspect, this would have to probably be studied maybe by SJ, Hadirian, and some of the other expert Modders who could give idea what would work or is possible. I'm only guessing here, but they could be used similiar to ship as far as being controlled by the player similiar to a KK. once launced you control them to their target. Problem would be fuel/supply/distance once launched, also should they have cloaking?? If you ever read Dave Webers "In Death's Ground" series it shows what a drone and worm hole missles do.
Maybe just have it that when sent thru wormhole they attack 1st enemy ship/base available. I don't think they should target ftrs or sats tho, I think we may be confusing Drones with Worm Hole capable missles. If we could combine both or make 2 seperate type units it would be excellent one as drone with capabilities some have mentioned in this thread and the missle aspect which some of the other like.

just some ideas mac

Re: Drones!!
 

what about the possibility of making them a planet destroying or star destroying missile. I forget the name of the specific components, but could we put those on? Then they'd be weopens that couldn't be taken lightly. Especially if they were cloaked.

Re: Drones!!
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by chewy027:
what about the possibility of making them a planet destroying or star destroying missile. I forget the name of the specific components, but could we put those on? Then they'd be weopens that couldn't be taken lightly. Especially if they were cloaked.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

those planet/star destroying components could be placed on a drone, but that would make them just as expensive as a normal ship with those components, maybe the planet/star destroying abilities can be added to the hull, and then modify cost of that hull.

Re: Drones!!
 

I just added drones to my VehicleSize.txt file today. The game loads fine. Haven't bothered to research the tech and build any since they can't be launched. If it were only possible to launch them... http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif



[This message has been edited by Baron Munchausen (edited 19 September 2001).]

Re: Drones!!
 

Baron, how about using the identical lauch codes/sequence as that set up for ftrs, sats, mines, re-do or mod the launch bays, say make one identical to say ftr, re-name and make it for drones. Use the identical set up txt or whatever and just rename, then take ftrs, do same thing except put the new name, then you would have say drone launch bays and drones that can be launched. the computer would just think they were another type of ftr, sat, mine. I think I wrote what I was thinking.. I hope it came out the way I wanted it to. If yu did it this way the cost would probably be in the same area as ftrs and until a new ship design was made they probably would look just like ftrs.

just some ideas mac

Re: Drones!!
 

mac5732,

It works well for launching and storage, but fighters cannot warp. ARRGH!

Also, drones do not work Double ARRGH!! So many possibilities...

And drones as ships cannot launch or be stored.

------------------
Never Give up, Never Surrender!

Re: Drones!!
 

mac5732,

It works well for launching and storage, but fighters cannot warp. ARRGH!

Also, drones do not work Double ARRGH!! So many possibilities...

And drones as ships cannot launch or be stored.

------------------
Never Give up, Never Surrender!

Re: Drones!!
 

I'm not a modder, but how about if you take the stats for the Escort, make it smaller in size, weight, etc, its movement and range would be less because of less space available, then use it as a drone, it would have warp capability the same as any ship, but would be restricted from what it could carry, possibly increase number of engines and speed. This wouldn't be a hard code change just a reduction in all the fields of what is already there. I think SJ did something like this in his pirate mod to redesign some of his ships. Could this be possible, smaller typ ship used as a drone. Could put maybe computer core only on it or something to that effect??

just some ideas mac

Re: Drones!!
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by mac5732:
I'm not a modder, but how about if you take the stats for the Escort, make it smaller in size, weight, etc, its movement and range would be less because of less space available, then use it as a drone, it would have warp capability the same as any ship, but would be restricted from what it could carry, possibly increase number of engines and speed. This wouldn't be a hard code change just a reduction in all the fields of what is already there. I think SJ did something like this in his pirate mod to redesign some of his ships. Could this be possible, smaller typ ship used as a drone. Could put maybe computer core only on it or something to that effect??

just some ideas mac<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

that's exactly what i'm talking about, one of my first "drones" was just a copy of the Escort but smaller. But the movement and range will be the same as any other ship, each engine will still only use 10 suplies and store 500, so you always get 50 range.

Re: Drones!!
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Baron Munchausen:
I just added drones to my VehicleSize.txt file today. The game loads fine. Haven't bothered to research the tech and build any since they can't be launched. If it were only possible to launch them... http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

[This message has been edited by Baron Munchausen (edited 19 September 2001).]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

yes, if it were only possible, all we humans really need is a "Launch Drone" ability. But unfortunately the AI probably won't be able to work with drones http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon9.gif

Re: Drones!!
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Phoenix-D:
Kadste, instead of setting the requirement to 0, try changing the "Requires Life Support" to false.

Phoenix-D<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

won't work, i tried that, but i think it is hardcoded that any ship size needs Bridge, Life Support and Crew Quarters to get max. movement.


<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kadste:
I have tried to set Requirement Min Life Support and Requirement Min Crew Quarters to zero. But, this resulted in a max movement of two. The only way that I could get around it was to give my "drone" the Ship Life Support and Ship Crew Quarters Abilities. I also gave my drone the Ship Bridge, Extra Movement Generation and Combat Movement Abilities to solve my problem with drone movement. On my drones you can only choose one component, the warhead. This also solved a problem with placing unwanted components on drones.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

i just gave my drone the Master Computer ability.
And how did you manage to only put warheads on drones ?

Re: Drones!!
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Just change the Life Support/Crew Quarters requirement on your 'drones' to '0' and see if that doesn't remove the problem. Then you can just make a "drone computer core" like the one for satellites to handle the bridge requirements.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

but if a drone is a ship size, then a "normal ship" can also use this component, maybe Kadste has found a way around this.

Re: Drones!!
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LemmyM:
that's exactly what i'm talking about, one of my first "drones" was just a copy of the Escort but smaller. But the movement and range will be the same as any other ship, each engine will still only use 10 suplies and store 500, so you always get 50 range.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And you could refuel them, they wouldn't be destroyed after a certain time and you would have to pay maintenance for them. So even if you call them drones, they are just small ships.
Similar if you use fighters to create drones: they won't be able to warp and will not be destroyed after a certain time. So they remain fighters.
To get real drones you require hard coded changes, therefore we must wait for MM to create them for us.

Re: Drones!!
 

The game states Drones, therefore, I know this is a dumb non-modder question, but in the data, txt, etc files is there a listing or catagory for drones? if so is there any type of set up for them where a little tweaking would enable their use??? I would think that if some type of file is in the set up for drones then there must be something in these files that is missing in order to get them to work. Has Richard ever said anything on the drone issue? Could we ask him to mention this to Aaron? or is the drones issue a major code addition? I'm just a dumb non-modder, But someday, when I have time I hope to start modding and then maybe i'll understand more what can and can't be done in mods. please excuse my sometimes dumb questions or ideas. I mean well...

just some ideas mac

Re: Drones!!
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by mac5732:
The game states Drones, therefore, I know this is a dumb non-modder question, but in the data, txt, etc files is there a listing or catagory for drones? if so is there any type of set up for them where a little tweaking would enable their use??? I would think that if some type of file is in the set up for drones then there must be something in these files that is missing in order to get them to work. Has Richard ever said anything on the drone issue? Could we ask him to mention this to Aaron? or is the drones issue a major code addition? I'm just a dumb non-modder, But someday, when I have time I hope to start modding and then maybe i'll understand more what can and can't be done in mods. please excuse my sometimes dumb questions or ideas. I mean well...

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, the controls for drones are already in the game. You could add them to the VehicleSize.txt and the Techareas.txt files, but there is no ability to launch them in the game, so even if you researched and built them nothing can put them in space for actual missions. Until MM solves some problems with the 'logic' that controls them, they will not be enabled.

Personally, I'd be very happy if they were just available as "cruise missiles" so you could fire off long-range attacks between planets or even between systems. I suppose that allowing only this would require stripping out existing code, though, and that's more work for MM, especially when the time comes to try to implement the extra functions again. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

[This message has been edited by Baron Munchausen (edited 20 September 2001).]

Re: Drones!!
 

It is kind of like the additional planet types. ALL the pictures are there but they are not used.
There are a number of things that never got added to the game but them in the files.

Re: Drones!!
 

Just thought about drones. Can you make mobile mines? This would work for cruise missiles.

Re: Drones!!
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ZeroAdunn:
Just thought about drones. Can you make mobile mines? This would work for cruise missiles.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

i think not, you can modify them so that engine can be added, but they won't get any actual movement, mines just aren't meant to move.


and the more i think about drones, the more i think they would be better as fighters than ships. If a drone is larger than a fighter, you can make specific components that can only fit on a drone, and you can have a drone weapon mount if you want fighter weapons on drones.
If drones are cheap, then you can make more in one turn if they were fighters.
You can also make drone launch bays, but i'm not sure yet what properties they would have.

Re: Drones!!
 

Mines WILL move, but only in a black hole system:P, or a "random movement" ability system.

Re: Drones!!
 

As I read the Posts, I think one of the problems with the use of drones is what exactly we want them to do. My opinion only, I agree with the Baron. I think they should be used in only 2 different ways. The major use would be similiar to a cruise missle. They should have a limited amount of damage capability. They could launch and hit planets, destroying facilities, wp's, etc, but should not be able for 1 to completely glaze one. They could launch plge bombs, destroy 1 or several facilities including shipyards. I haven't decided if they should be able to hit a space station, still kicking this one around. But if they did, I would think they would damage it but not utterly destroy one with only 1 hit, damage should be accumulative with multifple hits and after maximum damage is reached then it would be destroyed. The other suggestion is that they could be used for spying, however, supply would enter into the picture in this regard. If used as missle, a questions comes up if they should be able to be shot down or destroyed by defenses ie; wps, ftrs, bs's. something would have to be done in this area or they could be to powerful or not powerful enough to be worth building. Any ideas on this??? As far as launching, could you take say ftr bays, re-name drone bays and see if they would launch. I know you still have the warp problems and more then likly this would be a hard code problem. SJ any ideas on this, I know you did a lot of changing in your Pirate mod with numerous modifications and possibilities in this launch area???

just some ideas mac

Re: Drones!!
 

Here is what i came up with, there are 3 types of drones.
One is a weapon, like CSM, but bigger, higher seeker damage resistance, and a 30 reload rate, so it can only be fired once per turn : one component = one drone. I tried to add the "Component Destroyed on Use" ability, but that won't work on weapons.
Size := 100
Seeker Damage Resistance := 200
range = 20, damage at range = something between and around 500-1000 ?
Seeker Speed := 7 or 8
i was also thinking that maybe it could skip all shields, because of the large size, shields are useless ?

Another drone is a fighter size, but bigger (50-100kt), and on that drone planet and star destroying weapons can be placed, new components will have to be made for that. This drone shoulds only be usefull later in the game when star/planet destroying components are discovered. To make it usefull in the beginning a Drone Weapon Mount can be available to put fighter weapons on the drone.

And the Last is a ship size, smaller (50-100kt) with low maintenance, extra movement and no bridge etc. required ( a ship size with "Master Computer" ability ). This size is only usefull in the begining of the game for cheap exploring ship. To emphasize this, the ship size could also store some supplies to increase to range.
Later when cloaking is discovered, a cloaked ship size can become available to make it useful later in the game.

The order these drones could become available in :
Ship sized drone. (low tech, every command must be given)
Component drone. (more autonomous, seeks targets)
Fighter sized drone. (can be launched and recovered, can be used for fighting/kamikaze, and star/planet destroying components can be fitted on it.)

Re: Drones!!
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>if they should be able to be shot down or destroyed by defenses ie; wps, ftrs, bs's<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>This could be applied to every sector the drone passes through:
Count the number of enemy guns, and give them all a 1% chance to disable/destroy the drone.

You get diminishing returns, with a stack of sats blocking a decent fraction of the drones, but it would be impossible to completely protect a planet from a drone assault.

With this setup:
11 guns, 10% combined chance to hit
23 guns, 20% to hit
36, 30%
51, 40%
69, 50%
92, 60%
120, 70%
161, 80%
230, 90%

Note that a single small sat could have 4 guns on it, meaning two of them can shoot down almost 10% of the drones entering thier sector.

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Re: Drones!!
 

Since drones would automatically enter combat if they entered a sector with enemy forces, I don't think any 'statistical' effects are necessary. Just run combat (tactical or strategic as appropriate) and you get the results.

The more I think about the possible AI problems, though, the more concerned I get. This is an AI that doesn't remember it used to control a system after you wipe out all the colonies. How will it respond to drone attacks launched through a warp point from another system? hmm...

Re: Drones!!
 

I agree with the Baron on the AI aspects of Drones, thats why I think the issue should be as simple as possible. SJ's ideas on the percentages sounds good but would they apply to Worm Hole defenses as well? would the total of all gun defenses be added for l shot or would each planet & worm defense shoot as drone passes thru, in effect gving multifple chances for a hit? LemmyM's ideas sound good but like the Baron mentioned the AI isn't to swift in the managent area and if to complicated the drone issue won't get off the board, so maybe concentrate on only 1-2 simple uses like just the missle aspect and the scting drones. Also what weapons should be counted on to hit the drones? I don't thing every gun should be able to hit.
SJ, Baron, any ideas how to get some form of drones to work other then thru hard code changes??? LemmyM have you tried launching the ones you are designing??

just some ideas mac

Re: Drones!!
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>LemmyM have you tried launching the ones you are designing??<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

i tried all the design except the fighter-sized drone, but that is just a modification to the large fighter, so that shouldn't be a problem.

Re: Drones!!
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>would the total of all gun defenses be added for l shot or would each planet & worm defense shoot as drone passes thru, in effect gving multifple chances for a hit?
...
1-2 simple uses like just the missle aspect and the scting drones. Also what weapons should be counted on to hit the drones? I don't thing every gun should be able to hit.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>The 1% chances would be for every drone-targetting weapon (anything that hits fighters, say). Gun #1 gets a 1% chance, then gun #2 get a 1% chance. That gives you diminishing returns, so even with 100 shots, you get (0.99)^100, rather than 0% chance of the drone surviving.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Since drones would automatically enter combat if they entered a sector with enemy forces, I don't think any 'statistical' effects are necessary. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Why would drones ever want to start a battle? The only way they could ever have a chance in combat would be with a huge movement bonus, +300% ECM (ignoring talismans) and carry a null-space warhead.

If you do the statistical thing, you could have Ships/Bases/Planets be hit just like natural events, using any sort of damage effect you like. You would also be able to skip a potentially large number of huge fleet battles (against a stream of drones), saving time.

Re: Drones!!
 

it seems that stellar manip. doesn't work on fighters, i copied the star destroying component, and changed it so it could fit on a fighter. But when you build a fighter with that component, you can't select Stellar manip. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon9.gif