Choose your targets
 

I been reading some treads in the SP:WaW forum, especially the ones about SP:WaW vs. SPWW2. Interesting reading, but this discussion is like the PC vs. MAC, it’s a matter of taste and requirement.

I remember playing WaW before, and since I are a sucker for all SP (since sp1 way back) I liked it, but I don’t remember which version it was. So I can’t either discuss which the best is, or not.

But there is a great feature in WaW that I miss in WW2 and MBT.
It’s the ability to choose my own targets. When its AIs turn, you can choose to engage or not, this is realistic. And this feature has many other positive effects, as ambush, reserve the ammunition and so on.

Maybe this question have been asked before, but is it possible to get this possibility in SPWW2 and MBT?

Re: Choose your targets
 

This question was asked before, and I for one don't think it's worth the bother. Contrary, its absence keeps level of randomness. Bear in mind that if you, as battallion CO tell your troops "fire at will", they won't ask you for individual permissions. If you want them to wait in ambush, you have to order them to hold their fire )either limiting range or tuning off weapons, in game sense). You fail to do it - you blow your ambush, fair and square.

Re: Choose your targets
 

Well, it depends on which level you play, and how you choose to manage your troops.
A battalion commander are different from person to person, there are many ways to manage your troops. This I also know from personal experience after serving for many years, under many different battalion commanders. One CO just says “fix it” and move on, another say “do it like that and that, and then do this”.

There is also a huge difference between Eastern and Western commanders. In the West you have a flexible chain of command, just like the Germans had during WWII, if the officer in charge, or NCO saw a better way to solve the mission, he could. In the East and especially in Russia, or other nations that during the East/West (cold war) adopted Eastern strategy, you have a less flexibility, where the BN CO in the most cases has to follow a thorough plan. Where the possibility for diverge from the plan is small, or lesser than you find in the West.

But back to the game.
For an example. I set up an ambush, but the window for possibility is small, so the enemy during AI playtime passes. This can be an open gate through a forest, a street, or something similar.

So the question still remains?
This feature could be put in the preferences, and then you could choose for yourself.

But if these questions have been brought up earlier, with the answers I am seeking please post the link to the tread.

Re: Choose your targets
 

Yeah this question's been asked before.

The answers no.

Anybody that can't live without that feature has that game to play.

IDK why people think it desirable in the big scheme of things for both games to be the same. The whole REASON that other game exists is because a group of gamers had their own ideas that differed from Andy and I on the direction SP should go. If you like that feature then by all means don't play our game. You have a choice. Usually that's considered a plus in life .

However.... have you considered how "gamey" that particular feature is ? It's only useable against the AI and the AI has enough handicaps to deal with. We allow opfire filtering but it's at least usable against a human opponent as well.

Anyone who wants this has the other game to play. It's that simple.

Don

Re: Choose your targets
 

Wow, this was a harsh answer for a simple question.
This was merely a question, not criticism.

If I hadn’t liked what I saw when playing the free version, I wouldn’t bought both your games.

Anyway, it was just a small and simple question, nothing more.

Re: Choose your targets
 

Understood, but don't forget that this question gets asked at least once every six months or so. Search the board and you'll find several threads where it creeps up.
Same with the more general comparison between the two games. There's a reason they're different in certain aspects. Their respective developers have different opinions on what's desirable and what not. Just about everything you'll find in one game and not in the other is absent from one for that very reason.
Comparing and requesting features of the different games is a dead horse that gets flogged back to life on the boards every so often. And that's been going on for quite some years now. So please understand that it's an issue that'll get cut down soon.

Narwan

Re: Choose your targets
 

That "feature" drove me absolutely mad, M113! Hated it, hated it.

Different strokes for different folks, though. ;-))

Re: Choose your targets
 

narwan
This is understandable; I have the answer on this subject, so I am more than satisfied.

Well John, thinking back I can also remember some moments driving me mad with that option, when I played big games with so many forces that the game allowed med to have, so maybe were better of with not having that option.

Thx 4 all your replies.

Re: Choose your targets
 

And before Don says it: well done for buying the CDs and supporting the game!

Re: Choose your targets
 

Good day m113apc

I don't think Don was harsh, and as you said he answered the question. With these types of questions the Guys are always hoping they won't have to answer them again. I've been there myself. As for that feature I always turned it off because with the size of campaigns I fight it only increased the time it took to play a game.

As for ambushes I believe you said you have the CD version, with that one of the "extra" features is the ability to order units to fire at certain types of units, this combined was the range setting feature can help you set up some interesting "ambushes".


I have had successes with small AT weapons and Snipers. Maybe that would give you the tactic you desire with WWII.

Bob out:D

Re: Choose your targets
 

And good day to you Bob.

Well, I haven’t tried that function yet, where I can order my unit to open fire at a specific type of enemy units. I know about it, but haven’t tried it yet. But I sure will give it a try.

Anyway, this is a great game; actually this is the first game I ever played on a PC way back. And here I am, many years later still playing it.

Re: Choose your targets
 

Yes I've been playing this game since it's inception as well, it just never gets boring!! I've tried a few others but there always seems to be limitations of one sort or another, especially in their scope, plus the Campaign options in this game seem limitless. Heck, with the addition of MBT they for all practical purposes and some not so practical are limitless. I know people who have stacks of games now collecting dust still searching for THE GAME. Why search further? Some have seen the light some not.


Let us know how you do with the "ambushes" I'm going to form a "Ambush" section with my present German vs. AI Campaign and do some more "experimentation"! I'll brief the results sometime in the near future, but I need a delay or defense for it to work the best.


Bob out:D

Re: Choose your targets
 

A tip for your ambush, use pueppchens or steirlgranates to ambush enemy tanks, they're deadly

Re: Choose your targets
 

Yes they are! LOL

Bob out:D

Re: Choose your targets
 

i learnt this the hard way... in a night battle

Re: Choose your targets
 

Dammit, any well disciplinary infantry/ground unit with a slingshot, catapult, tin opener or similar lethal Ÿber deadly weapon can pop up your tank like hot knife through butter :D.

I know this because I’m a hardcore tanker in this game, and I go inn charging, through dense forest, towns, whatever, a long time before my small infantry units arrive. And I bleed, and die, but with great fun :doh:.

So, ambush in this game. I learn it every time I advance or charge the enemy positions.
Great fun.. :up:

Re: Choose your targets
 

I just wanted to add that I originally came from WaW as well. However, the advantages of the winSPx CD versions (map editor and resolution) brought me to buy those two as well.

In the beginning, I really missed the opfire confirmation. Especially against human opponents, it seemed exploitable to move units around in order to draw opfire chances before beginning the 'real' movement.

If you have the CD version, the opfire filter then works like a charm. You can specify which target to engange, in what area, against how strong armour, at what range, ...

I didn't miss opfire confirmations after that, and neither will you. ;)

Re: Choose your targets
 

So two of you have seen the light? Well done!

Re: Choose your targets
 

I dont go mad with the feature, but it was handy as Iran to set my chieftains and TOW to engage Iraqi T-72 and discount any T-55 etc, which my lesser stuff was left to shoot at. Or in WW2, to set up my 17 pounders to hit on tiggers, panthers etc and leave P4s to the cromwells and regular shermans.

The ambush area is useful now and then to only fire on targets in a small area of critical import, and leave any others to deal with later.

Andy

Re: Choose your targets
 

Careful guys, as I have heard before on this forum, if you are playing the AI, be aware that the filtering can give you a very significant advantage, as the AI does not have the filtering available.

Re: Choose your targets
 

I to came from WAW & did not use target choosing often as got bored pressing the space bar.
I feel the target selection routines in this game are far better anyway so you do not fire at every unit in LOS.
If you want better buy the CD & give them some orders with the opfire filter but you will generaly find in most games just use it now & again when its needed.
Just think of any unit that did something you wish it hadn't as reacting poorly in the heat of the moment.
Not giving your position away is easy just turn down the range if no op filter they will fire back if fired on.
My pet niggle is the occasion when he fires one of my few APCR rounds at a taxi but hey it was in the tube & ready to go.
This is a reason why the other argument that sometimes comes up of being able to select ammo type is a no no. If alowed the guns rate of fire should be reduced if selected manually, fire to clear then load right round.

Re: Choose your targets
 

Imp: I may be incorrect, but I think you're mistaken in believing that a unit with not enough range for it's attacker (meaning the attacker is within maximum gun range, but not within the player's adjusted range) will engage it when fired upon. I quite often have my infantry take a good beating from enemy infantry because other units have spotted it before I thought they would, and they don't return fire. I often reduce their range to only 1 because I am trying to entrap tanks. Now maybe there's an exception to what you say for AFV's but I doubt it. And it's not like my infantry are so damage in the intitial or subsequent attacks that they're incapable of responding dur to suppression. You assessment, evenb if true, is partially incorrect in that it's possible the unit that is intially being fired upon, does not respond due to it not spotting the attacker, but being spotted itself. A good example of this is a unit being fired upon by a sniper - it isn't possible to respond when the attacker isn't seen.

Note also, if you have seen very many infantry battles, just how many of them turn towards their attacker and don't fire. It seems to me that they do so because they just spotted the attacker, which in some cases would mean they should fire back immediately, or, if not then, then the next time they are attacked from the same unit. Note how they also turn towards the rear of the side's forces when they go into that sort of pre-retreat mode (but are actually listed as retreating), where they haven't got around to moving from the original hex. I know that last point sounds a bit goofy if you haven't noticed it, but a lot of time the attacked will face the opposite direction before physically retreating to another hex.

Re: Choose your targets
 

IMP: Come to think of it, I think what you say about returning fire is correct, but I think it's only something SPWAW does, and not winSPWW2.

Re: Choose your targets
 

Charles do not take this as gospel as never realy thought about.

As have op filter dont Y key so much but if they can see there attacker they will fire back & there range is reset to that range.

When a unit turns to you & does not fire I think it has a good idea where you are & will likely see you if you fire another shot, its now looking in your general area.

Re facing the other way never thought about but do you not think this represents getting your head down & seeking cover as have lost intrest in engaging the enemy?

Re: Choose your targets
 

Something, I might add, rarely heard when WaW opfire confirmation is discussed

Don

Re: Choose your targets
 

Hmm, I never realized that about SPWAW. So they will fire just as blindly as the SPWW2 rendition, huh? Frankly I got tired of the WAW opfire anyway, as often the unit it picked to do so, was far from being what you would had picked. So WW2's filtering is sort of the same thing, but IMO only better, should one desire an advantage that is. I gets really tiring having to continually deny units that you don't want shooting in SPWAW in opfire.

I bet most people that have played SPWAW would swear the AI does have opfire ability, but it's really hard to tell unless one assumes you would have to see the AI go through more delays in their turn. I mean, I guess that's it isn't it (other than the obvious of knowing the coding, which most do not)? If the AI had opfire, it's turns wouldn't be as quick as they are for any of the other SP's. You sure don't see any red lines being drawn duriing their turn either.

So far as Imp is concerned, I was correct in stating that it is only SPWAW, or at least 'not' SPWW2, which will allow units to fire back (during enemy turn) when fired upon, despite the player reducing their range short of that unit, right? I don't think I have seen this game do that. Either way has it's advantages.

Re: Choose your targets
 

I'm not too sure about this Imp, so I asked DRG. I can tell you that part of the reaction delay you are seeing has to do with spotting the unit first, no matter if you are correct or not.

Let's assume you're right for a minute. Perhaps it's different for infantry, but why is it that I will fire at enemy infantry, and maybe they will return fire, but only two or more firings later often enough, which of course means my infantry is spotted by a great many units close to my target, but yet when I fire on aonther unit I go through the same routine of return fire taking that same length? If it were a matter of it simply being that seen units are fired upon, despite range too short for that (through some form of filtering), when they are fired upon, you wouldn't think there would be a delay in reacting. I don't get it. because sometimes it does seem they return fire immediately.

Oh, at least it would work this way in SPWAW. The reason they sometimes respond immediately, to even a beforehand unfiring hidden unit, is because their range had been increased due to their returning fire on a unit that fired upon them from a distance exceeeding what they had before.

Man I have been thinking too much today.

Re: Choose your targets
 

Do not quite understand what you mean but lets say
unit fired on turns to look in area so has a good chance of spotting next shot.

now fired on again suppresed more so does not spot

next fire does but due to suppresion now has reduced number of shots to return fire.

I could be imagining it but its great there is a very minor delay passing on info rather than silly SPWAW every one opens up.

Seems to me often when he spots & returns fire other units not in contact take a while longer to react, think of your tanks in overwatch for instance.

This simulates things like a formation breaking cover simultaniosly pretty well considering you move units individually. Its also another advantage you have over the AI as it only manages by fluke.

Personnel prefrence I think WW2 MBT simulate pretty well you seem to want SPWAW RTS instant awareness.

Note the dealy is realy to small but has to be because when its your turn you have the eye of God.

This is my last on subject & nit picking if you like SPWAW play dont compare it.My view though is it does a couple of things nicely but is generally much more gamey so I have not played it since discovering the Camo games.

This is not RTS you have overall control but only limited control over indivudual units. More control & its just a game unexpected things happen in combat & as I stated earlier the routines controlling units are far superior in these games

Re: Choose your targets
 

My point was, choosing to opfire or not is also a "cheat" against the AI because the AI most definitely does not have the ability to choose between firing or not in any way close to the way a human player would make that decision



Don

Re: Choose your targets
 

I'm not sure if this message was meant for me or not, but if you thought I was in favor of SPWAW you're completely wrong. I was merely pointing out some differences, mostly to SPWAW's disadvantage. I told you that I thought you picked up this instant reaction for units with instant adjusted range, when fired upon, from SPWAW, not winSPWW2. I know for a fact SPWAW is that way, but I doubt winSPWW2 is. Both games have a reaction fire, but my memory is a little cloudy regarding SPWAW.

It seems to me that the only way the reaction fire "controlled by the human" occurred, was if the firing unit was within adjusted range and spotted. Where the range was lengthened automatically, was in the greater portion of the turn when the rest of the enemy actions occurred after the human-contorrled reaction has expired and the program controlled opfire. That was a teaching by the Matrix guys that helped you get around some of the poor units being selected for the human-controlled portion of the reaction opfire. Then I suppose the rule of targeted units automatically lengthening their range was a way to compensate for the player losing some of his units do to cutting their range so they wouldn't be selected to use the human opfire portion. I hope that makes sense to you.

Anyway, I don't think winSPWW2 has anything to do with targeted units getting their range automatically lengthened in order to react to being fired upon. As I said. I don't see my infantry doing that, but then it's harder to watch such things when the AI has it's turn, as opposed to firing on the AI. You can never be too sure what the AI range is. I was hoping somebody, besides you or I, would clarify this. It's been nice talking to you.

Re: Choose your targets
 

Oh yeah, should you be responding to me, I thought I made that clear, that both systems don't allow AI counters to the human controlled reactions possible (opfire in SPWAW, filtering in winSPWW2), since you did mention SPWAW was that way.

So Don, did you get my last question, this thing Imp said about winSPWW2 allowing units with cut range to open up if they are targeted? I was thinking that was unique to SPWAW.

Re: Choose your targets
 

If I understand the question correctly then yes, if they are spotted and fired on the units with restricted range will return fire even if the range has been set to 100m for example and the enemy is firing at them from 200m. The point of holding fire is to surprise the enemy. If the enemy has spotted and fired on you the "surprise" is gone along with the need to hold fire until 100m. However, it will only be the unit fired on that will return fire not every unit in sight that may also have had their firing range restricted. Until actually fired on the unit will "assume" it's not been spotted

You can test that easily enough with a simple little sceanrio

Don

Re: Choose your targets
 

Thanks Don, that certainly clears that up. Overall, that's a good thing I guess, but it can be exploited like just about anything, not that I would want anybody to take it out, even if it were quite easy to do.

There simply are times where you don't want the range restricted to fire back. For example, why should the KTiger have to return fire to an infantry unit outside of satchel charge range? It may also be a letdown to see units with very limited ammo having it used up that way, but happily for me I don't play against foes who would do that.